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EU - Leaner, fitter, global. A Tory speaks.

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-consumer-worker-protections-brexit-b1783331.html?fbclid=IwAR1XO5AqliG6OUGpuUPKyPh7rY2f0xmeqfrJ1XAqny58K_rjJxQef4wceic

"To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

13
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

That'll be this tw*t, I suppose?

A former MEP given a peerage by Boris Johnson has repeatedly denounced the House of Lords, branding it “everything that is wrong with the administration of Britain” and warning it was being flooded with “inconsequential nobodies”.

... Good of him to accept the peerage and contribute some inconsequential hypocrisy to proceedings.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-peerages-daniel-hannan-b1777767.html

 mcdougal 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

Got it in a nutshell. I'm just surprised that he didn't blither about flexible working (= your priorities WAY less important than your employer's). 

Post edited at 16:19
3
 subtle 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

I rather think the chap is correct

1
 mcdougal 07 Jan 2021
In reply to subtle:

If he's making arguments for staying in the EU, then he probably is correct!

2
 GrahamD 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

> Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

I'm hearing "despite what we said about having to fight off global trade opportunities with a shitty stick, actually we lied and we don't have the global trade opportunities"

2
 Jim Lancs 07 Jan 2021
In reply to subtle:

>I rather think the chap is correct

But he's not talking about the upper echelons of management, or credit supply to innovative businesses, or national strategies to support risk taking in entrepreneurs, etc.

He simply wants us to become more aligned with the American model; to slash employment rights, to push the consequences of failure down onto the lowest paid, to increase the disparity between the haves and have nots, to charge for everything, etc.

That was what Brexit was really about. They might not have got all the way there yet, but there's no rush. Finding a populist vein of hatred for foreigners and Europe in particular was their lucky chance to start the process of moving us away from the influence of other European liberal social democracies. Sadly so many of those who voted for it, are the ones who will be totally screwed in the American styled brave new world.

Post edited at 16:35
5
 Yanis Nayu 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Well blow me down with a feather!

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Well blow me down with a feather!

Me too! I was well f**king surprised.

 subtle 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> He simply wants us to become more aligned with the American model; to slash employment rights, to push the consequences of failure down onto the lowest paid, to increase the disparity between the haves and have nots, to charge for everything, etc.

> That was what Brexit was really about. They might not have got all the way there yet, but there's no rush. Finding a populist vein of hatred for foreigners and Europe in particular was their lucky chance to start the process of moving us away from the influence of other European liberal social democracies. Sadly so many of those who voted for it, are the ones who will be totally screwed in the American styled brave new world.

But surely that is how we, and the Americans, can make ourselves great again?

In reply to subtle:

> I rather think the chap is correct

Except he isn't talking about being fitter, leaner and more globally engaged. He is talking about a race to the bottom.

3
In reply to subtle:

> But surely that is how we, and the Americans, can make ourselves great again?

You might have been out of the news loop for a bit...

1
 Jim Lancs 07 Jan 2021
In reply to subtle:

> But surely that is how we, and the Americans, can make ourselves great again?

No, it's a failed system. I spent my working life largely in the US and whilst it allows some to get rich, huge swathes of others  live in fear: Fear of being fired, fear of getting ill, fear of the police, fear of their neighbours, fear over losing their homes, etc.

America is a society craving security. Hence many flock to anyone (politicians, internet sites, church leaders) who can tell them the 'answer'. Others only feel 'secure' and able to exercise any control in their lives through the delusion of being armed and the ownership of guns. You might find that pushing everyone down so their daily concerns are in the very bottom of Maslow's hierarchy will give you a subsevient workforce, but it comes at an enormous societal price. 

The US dream was true in the fifties and early sixties. The illusion has been sustained since then by folk lore and propaganda. Huge numbers these days have never experienced anything close. For us to ape a society entering its death throws is plain stupid.

Post edited at 17:05
 jkarran 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

If google translate did Tory > English, I'm pretty sure you'd get 'To succeed outside the EU we need to race to the bottom'.

jk

5
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"

Daniel Hannan, May 2015

🤔

In reply to Shani:

> "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market"

> Daniel Hannan, May 2015

> 🤔

You suggesting he's mendacious f*ck?

1
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Yup: the narrative of "getting rid of EU red tape" did always sound to me like getting rid of the Working Time directive, safety requrements, polution controls, and a pile of other things that made this place better than it had been in the '70s

1
 George Ormerod 07 Jan 2021
In reply to subtle:

> I rather think the chap is correct

It would be a first then. He’s been spectacularly wrong about COVID. 

1
 baron 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

> Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

Should make it easier for the Labour Party to win the next election.

4
In reply to baron:

> Should make it easier for the Labour Party to win the next election.

Arch apologist alert!! 

What do you think of his comments which don't really take a genius to unravel means exactly what we think it means? Is it something you support? 

1
 Bacon Butty 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Darren Jackson:

Who was that Tory bint who said she's giving up politics to spend more time with her family?

Became an ex MP but instantly got promoted to the Lord's, and straight back on our tellys spouting the usual garbage.

Post edited at 20:01
1
 baron 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Arch apologist alert!! 

> What do you think of his comments which don't really take a genius to unravel means exactly what we think it means? Is it something you support? 

Do I support lower wages, reducing worker’s rights, etc.

Unequivocally no!

And as I said, if that’s the road that the Conservatives go down then people will vote for the Labour Party.

In reply to baron:

> Do I support lower wages, reducing worker’s rights, etc.

> Unequivocally no!

> And as I said, if that’s the road that the Conservatives go down then people will vote for the Labour Party.

Oooh, you and your mischievous back handed compliments!

I'll put you down as a yes for party membership then, OK? 

 baron 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Oooh, you and your mischievous back handed compliments!

> I'll put you down as a yes for party membership then, OK? 

Surely you didn’t miss the post where I explained why I joined the Labour Party in 2015?

In reply to baron:

> Surely you didn’t miss the post where I explained why I joined the Labour Party in 2015?

I did indeed! And well played sir. 1-0 to you 👍 

Now I'm conflicted better a Remain blue, or a Leave red? 🤔

If you're intent was honest about a Labour win, I unfortunately think there is more to play for yet with Brexit and the Tories in power. Johnson will cop it for covid but then he'll get blue-washed out of the picture. 

I am pessimistic about the death of a thousand cuts that I believe is Brexit, but I don't think enough damage can be done for the new blue wall to feel its pain before the next election.

 baron 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> I did indeed! And well played sir. 1-0 to you 👍 

> Now I'm conflicted better a Remain blue, or a Leave red? 🤔

> If you're intent was honest about a Labour win, I unfortunately think there is more to play for yet with Brexit and the Tories in power. Johnson will cop it for covid but then he'll get blue-washed out of the picture. 

> I am pessimistic about the death of a thousand cuts that I believe is Brexit, but I don't think enough damage can be done for the new blue wall to feel its pain before the next election.

Who knows what will happen between now and the next general election. However, I can’t see many supporters of either of the two main parties being enamoured with a manifesto that pledges to reduce their wages, working conditions, etc. And any party that adopts such policies deserves to be in opposition and not in power.

 Andy Hardy 07 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

> Who knows what will happen between now and the next general election. However, I can’t see many supporters of either of the two main parties being enamoured with a manifesto that pledges to reduce their wages, working conditions, etc. And any party that adopts such policies deserves to be in opposition and not in power.

What we'll get is a load of lies in the Tory manifestation, which will be amplified by the compliant media and forgotten about by the time Friday morning rolls around, followed by another Tory chumocracy engaged in the race to the bottom.

2
In reply to baron:

> Who knows what will happen between now and the next general election. However, I can’t see many supporters of either of the two main parties being enamoured with a manifesto that pledges to reduce their wages, working conditions, etc. And any party that adopts such policies deserves to be in opposition and not in power.

We're going to be a Singapore of Europe. Being a tax haven is our future!

We've just pulled out of the DAC6 directive concerning the mandatory disclosure of cross-border tax planning.

 baron 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> What we'll get is a load of lies in the Tory manifestation, which will be amplified by the compliant media and forgotten about by the time Friday morning rolls around, followed by another Tory chumocracy engaged in the race to the bottom.

And at what point will the electorate realise what is happening to their pay, conditions, etc and refuse to vote for the Conservatives?

In reply to Bacon Butty:

> Who was that Tory bint who said she's giving up politics to spend more time with her family?

That'll be the fragrant Baroness Morgan of Cotes... Her family used to know her as Nicky. 

In reply to subtle:

I fear you were being too subtle...

[edit] actually, I hope you were being too subtle.. 

Post edited at 23:52
 john arran 08 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

If your plan all along was to help fcuk the country up badly enough such that people would finally realise that voting Tory isn't actually in their interests in the slightest, then may I suggest it wasn't the smartest plan.

2
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to john arran:

> If your plan all along was to help fcuk the country up badly enough such that people would finally realise that voting Tory isn't actually in their interests in the slightest, then may I suggest it wasn't the smartest plan.

It’s not my plan.

I just find it interesting that some people talk as though the Conservatives will always be in power. If they, the Conservatives, decide to reduce workers rights, pay and conditions then come the next general election they’ll probably lose that election. And quite rightly so. That’s one of the benefits for our system. If you don’t want the Conservatives in power you should be encouraging them to make outrageous statements - not that they need much encouragement sometimes.

7
 john arran 08 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

Then forgive me for pointing out that, having supported Brexit at all, and particularly during a Tory government, what may not have been your plan should really have been clear to all as inevitable.

2
 nawface 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

https://uk.bookshop.org/books/democracy-for-sale-dark-money-and-dirty-politics/9781789546033

This is good read if you fancy cheering yourself up during lockdown.

"But when I asked former member Guto Bebb what drove the ERG he gave a one word answer: deregulation."

 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Then forgive me for pointing out that, having supported Brexit at all, and particularly during a Tory government, what may not have been your plan should really have been clear to all as inevitable.

While things might be inevitable they are not always permanent or irreversible. Just because a Conservative government might decide on deregulation, reducing workers rights, etc doesn’t mean that the next, presumably Labour, government has to follow  suit. Surely Labour’s only hope of winning the next election depends upon the Conservatives following a policy of eroding pay, conditions, etc?

1
 Jim Lancs 08 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

It's taken 45 years to get the UK out of the EU. There's no rush to fulfil the dream of a fully deregulated, exploitative work environment. This is the work of religious zealots - they work to different time scales.

It will be done by a 1000 tiny cuts. They'll always be something else to distract the electorate. The first massive step was Brexit and possible because no one wanted to hear about the real issues (it's all Project Fear!). Everyone was having too much fun with the primal self gratification of hating stuff (Europe, refugees and Corbin). Throw in a few Spitfires, some black and white war time myths, some simplistic slogans and the majority felt it was their patriotic duty to shoot themselves in the foot.

The likes of Cummings aren't employed because they bring clarity to rational debate. They're used because they can deliver votes against the odds.  The British electorate will never be presented with a clear and simple choice between an inclusive modern social democracy and the bear pit of deregulation. It will always be lost behind the smoke screen of simplistic appeals to self interest: "Tax Cuts for All, Britain for the British, Make Britain Great Again . . . "

Trump screwed up by allowing his narcism to override the 'bigger plan'. It's certainly true that the 'powers that be' will have to reorganise themselves, but they won't go away. A lot of good groundwork has been done with about half the electorate in the US and in the UK still believing that their respective political projects over the last four years have been a success. Not a bad base. Hell, loads of them still believe that Trump played less golf than Obama. We sadly no longer live in a world where logic and facts are certain to prevail.

1
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> It's taken 45 years to get the UK out of the EU. There's no rush to fulfil the dream of a fully deregulated, exploitative work environment. This is the work of religious zealots - they work to different time scales.

> It will be done by a 1000 tiny cuts. They'll always be something else to distract the electorate. The first massive step was Brexit and possible because no one wanted to hear about the real issues (it's all Project Fear!). Everyone was having too much fun with the primal self gratification of hating stuff (Europe, refugees and Corbin). Throw in a few Spitfires, some black and white war time myths, some simplistic slogans and the majority felt it was their patriotic duty to shoot themselves in the foot.

> The likes of Cummings aren't employed because they bring clarity to rational debate. They're used because they can deliver votes against the odds.  The British electorate will never be presented with a clear and simple choice between an inclusive modern social democracy and the bear pit of deregulation. It will always be lost behind the smoke screen of simplistic appeals to self interest: "Tax Cuts for All, Britain for the British, Make Britain Great Again . . . "

> Trump screwed up by allowing his narcism to override the 'bigger plan'. It's certainly true that the 'powers that be' will have to reorganise themselves, but they won't go away. A lot of good groundwork has been done with about half the electorate in the US and in the UK still believing that their respective political projects over the last four years have been a success. Not a bad base. Hell, loads of them still believe that Trump played less golf than Obama. We sadly no longer live in a world where logic and facts are certain to prevail.

At the risk of sounding a bit harsh, if the British electorate isn’t able to determine that it’s wages have been cut, it’s working hours increased, it’s working conditions made worse etc, then it possibly deserves exactly what it gets. Especially when there should be a credible opposition party explaining what’s happening, why it’s happening and offering a viable, more attractive alternative.

7
In reply to baron:

You cannot overestimate the power of the media - traditional media may be in decline but the Sun, the Mail, The Express, The Times and the Telegraph still set the agenda, and create the narrative. They are happy to tell lies, make up stories, run campaigns and have the power to virtually wipe out opposition.

Virtually every one of those esteemed publications said that post Brexit trade would be frictionless. If you don't have much experience running a business or working in Europe, why wouldn't you believe them? And the absolute fact that they were completely wrong - after 8 days the borders are pretty much exactly like most of us here were predicting 4 years ago  - won't be gracing the front pages anytime soon, so their readers will, at best, be left with the feeling it's just one of those things. They still won't realise they have been deliberately deceived.

1
In reply to baron:

> If you don’t want the Conservatives in power you should be encouraging them to make outrageous statements

And that's why you joined the Labour party; to make them unelectable...?

 neilh 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

The issue I have with that is that iI know too many business owners who voted for Brexit. They should have been able to rationally figure out the consequences.

I just had a chat with the owner of engineering company ( he employs about 100 people) who I subcontract machining too.The pillock voted for Brexit and he has just now figured it out that it is not a good idea for his business.He is suddenly drowning in paperwork.

Too f###g late

 Offwidth 08 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

More to the point they should have been able to figure out that most of the leading proponents of brexit were 'snake oil salesmen'. The gutting of the extensive one nation talent from the tory representation in parliament in 2019 was 'night of the long knives' lite (apologies to Godwin): thoroughly ruthless and Boris in blatant doublespeak claimed it as based on a one nation position.

Those in such businesses I knew who voted for brexit were also bloody busy and maybe should have paid for some independent advice given the potential risks.

 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> You cannot overestimate the power of the media - traditional media may be in decline but the Sun, the Mail, The Express, The Times and the Telegraph still set the agenda, and create the narrative. They are happy to tell lies, make up stories, run campaigns and have the power to virtually wipe out opposition.

> Virtually every one of those esteemed publications said that post Brexit trade would be frictionless. If you don't have much experience running a business or working in Europe, why wouldn't you believe them? And the absolute fact that they were completely wrong - after 8 days the borders are pretty much exactly like most of us here were predicting 4 years ago  - won't be gracing the front pages anytime soon, so their readers will, at best, be left with the feeling it's just one of those things. They still won't realise they have been deliberately deceived.

We were, I thought, discussing some Tory’s proposal for being leaner not rerunning Brexit.

As I said, if people are not smart enough to figure out why their pay has decreased and why they should vote for a party that will protect those wages then what can you do?

3
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > If you don’t want the Conservatives in power you should be encouraging them to make outrageous statements

> And that's why you joined the Labour party; to make them unelectable...?

I joined the Labour Party to vote for Corbyn as leader.

1
 neilh 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Thats just an excuse being busy. Anybody who knew their business should have beenn able to figure out the consequences where you were involved with physical goods. I can give leeway to those outside that area.

 maxsmith 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

well said

 Andy Gamisou 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

Whilst I tend to agree, I would point out that being in a EU member state in no way necessarily indemnifies you against working long hours, for little pay, and no H&S.

 john arran 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Whilst I tend to agree, I would point out that being in a EU member state in no way necessarily indemnifies you against working long hours, for little pay, and no H&S.

But within the EU at least those employing people on such terms are often acting illegally, or at least employing 'creative' interpretation of laws. Outside of the EU, the UK government will now be free to boast about how 'hardworking' and 'efficient' its citizens are becoming.

2
 neilh 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

You have a good point. Witness the number of small trucks from Poland, Romania and Bulgaira doing pick up and deliveries in the UK which were shall we say well dodgy.I did not realise until recently that german companies were often paying their Eastern Euopean zero hour contract staff nelwo the minimum German wage as they were able to do so by some quirk of local law.

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

> The pillock voted for Brexit and he has just now figured it out that it is not a good idea for his business.

Should people not vote for what they have decided is best ?   Only what benefits them personally ?

10
 Vigier 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I think this is what he is hoping for:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/07/britannia-unchained-free-market-book-defines-boris-johnson-s-new-cabinet

Unfortunately, given the majority the Conservative Government enjoys for the next four years, this is the direction of travel we must expect.

 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> Should people not vote for what they have decided is best ?  Only what benefits them personally ?

Yes, people should indeed vote for what they have decided is best; however it is preferable to put some critical thought into the decision making process. This particular chap didn't realise when he made that decision the effect on his business, and actually said he would have voted the other way if he had known of those effects (ie if he had put some thought into it).

 Rob Naylor 08 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

> I just find it interesting that some people talk as though the Conservatives will always be in power.

With the new constituency boundaries they're bringing in, they'll only be shifted by absolutely huge swings. The sort of swings we normally see, even those resulting in a landslide, won't do it.

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

You are assuming he didn't put a lot of thought into it.  Perhaps he still has the same opinion, but wishes he'd just been selfish and chosen to save himself the effort.

6
 john arran 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> You are assuming he didn't put a lot of thought into it.  Perhaps he still has the same opinion, but wishes he'd just been selfish and chosen to save himself the effort.

Wishful thinking knows no bounds.

1
In reply to baron:

> I joined the Labour Party to vote for Corbyn as leader.

Like I said...

 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > I joined the Labour Party to vote for Corbyn as leader.

> Like I said...

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

I actually thought Corbyn would make a good leader of the Labour Party.

It was a pity that many of his MPs didn’t share my enthusiasm.

3
 Offwidth 08 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

Not always my experience of those running an SME... eg keeping the business running in the middle of a family emergency or overstretched on orders or dealing with unexpected major logistics issues. Sometimes they were just not very good or up to date (why business rescue shows worked as a concept). Sometimes weird.

I was always interested in this since doing my EP1 during the Thatcher collapses, so saw large numbers of such businesses that were soon not to be. During my hundreds of  placement visits I saw much more. My favourite business weirdo ran a gambling machine sub-contract (and repair) business who insisted on a clause in his lease in Hull that he was due compensation if they offered a lease in the same small industrial estate to any fish businesses. When I visited he was 'doing his nut' as the landlord had just done exactly that. On paper it was borderline our placement student was getting the right experience but he really enjoyed it and some of the  the 'wrong' experiences were wonderful and the seemingly missing bits had been covered imaginatively (in a good way). Another odd one was a small but quite high tech control engineering business where the owner said no one stayed anymore and he didn't get it. I asked how much he paid graduates and nearly choked on my coffee.

 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> You are assuming he didn't put a lot of thought into it.  Perhaps he still has the same opinion, but wishes he'd just been selfish and chosen to save himself the effort.

No, I'm assuming nothing. I watched the TV interview with him. He admits to not thinking about it, and that he wishes he had.

Speaking of assuming; I bet you wish you'd watched the interview as well, so you didn't have to make false assumptions.........

Edit - although it must be said the piece was pretty condescending and came across very much along the lines of "ha! another idiot taken in by the brexit idea without thinking about it. Bet you're sorry now!". Sadly a common tale these days, but there are better ways of presenting it. 

Post edited at 14:48
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Naylor:

> With the new constituency boundaries they're bringing in, they'll only be shifted by absolutely huge swings. The sort of swings we normally see, even those resulting in a landslide, won't do it.

So if Scotland becomes independent and all those potential Labour seats disappear for good,  there’ll probably never be a Labour Government again?

 Tringa 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

> Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?


" ..... and more profit for me and my mates."

Dave

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

> No, I'm assuming nothing. I watched the TV interview with him. He admits to not thinking about it, 

Fair enough.  I didn't know that.

> Edit - although it must be said the piece was pretty condescending and came across very much along the lines of "ha! another idiot taken in by the brexit idea without thinking about it. Bet you're sorry now!". Sadly a common tale these days, but there are better ways of presenting it. 

Yes.  Sadly most news items now start from premise they want to promote, and are set out to do so.

If you can judge the opinion of the reporter, that is usually a bad thing.

1
 jimtitt 08 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

> You have a good point. Witness the number of small trucks from Poland, Romania and Bulgaira doing pick up and deliveries in the UK which were shall we say well dodgy.I did not realise until recently that german companies were often paying their Eastern Euopean zero hour contract staff nelwo the minimum German wage as they were able to do so by some quirk of local law.


Not sure "quirk" is the right word, if a German company sub-contracts to a transport company in another country the driver is subject to the legislation in that country. BUT if the driver loads/unloads in Germany his driving hours inside Germany must be paid at German minimum wage (this goes for all of the EU). It's a complicated problem with a non-federal EU and one of our Polish posters on UKC was spitting mad a few years back at the "f*cking EU" destroying his business when they started enforcing national driving hours regs for "foreign" drivers, specifically regarding the French and weekends at home/ not with the vehicle.

In reply to Ian W:

> Sadly a common tale these days, but there are better ways of presenting it. 

Shame the press and media coverage wasn't a bit more clear before the referendum.

 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > Sadly a common tale these days, but there are better ways of presenting it. 

> Shame the press and media coverage wasn't a bit more clear before the referendum.

Yes, there is this.......

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

As I recall press and media coverage was predicting virtually the end of life as we know it, were we stupid enough to vote to leave.

I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?

10
In reply to Tringa:

I'm not convinced about that. Remember Johnson and his 'f*ck business' schtick? He meant it. Any businessman (as opposed to spiv)  who voted for Brexit was just plain bonkers, what we are now seeing was as inevitable as night following day. And it's going to get one whole lot worse before it gets better, and the trouble is, the EU DON'T F*CKING CARE. And why should they?

In reply to David Riley:

> As I recall press and media coverage was predicting virtually the end of life as we know it, were we stupid enough to vote to leave.

> I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?

Mate of mine can't get some spares for a Rose bicycle purchased last year.

 Jim Lancs 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?

Do you not read the papers?

1
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> Do you not read the papers?

the Sun, the Mail, the Express, the Times or the Telegraph...?

In reply to David Riley:

> I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?

15% drop in the value of my pounds...?

Cessation of EU-funded research work? Redundancies in the company I work for.

Post edited at 17:00
1
In reply to David Riley:

> As I recall press and media coverage was predicting virtually the end of life as we know it, were we stupid enough to vote to leave.

> I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-fishing-exclusive-idUKKBN29D0UB?fbclid=IwAR3fiK-8Vt3t3_0T7HPnTPnINj_2RDdEZLVIH-qyqgExcbNrQV4E9RPF-uk

You've gone quiet David. 

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

Apart from a peak around 2016 the pound has been substantially the same against the Euro since 2008 when it was lower than now.  I am expecting it to rise.

How much has the exchange rate and termination of EU grants actually had an effect on you.  Do you expect to get any UK grants ? 

4
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> You've gone quiet David. 

I read the bit about the destruction of a centuries old industry. I never realised that the EU was that old.

6
In reply to baron:

> I read the bit about the destruction of a centuries old industry. I never realised that the EU was that old.

It's everywhere baron! And older than an old thing. 

In reply to baron:

> I read the bit about the destruction of a centuries old industry. I never realised that the EU was that old.

In all seriousness, if that is the actual experience for them it is a bit devastating. Real people and all that. 

 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> In all seriousness, if that is the actual experience for them it is a bit devastating. Real people and all that. 

It sounds every bit of devastating.

My point wasn’t that it was in any way funny but that the trade had obviously been going on long before the EU was formed and will continue in some form in the future. Assuming there is still a demand for the product.

2
 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> Apart from a peak around 2016 the pound has been substantially the same against the Euro since 2008 when it was lower than now.  I am expecting it to rise.

> How much has the exchange rate and termination of EU grants actually had an effect on you.  Do you expect to get any UK grants ? 


Do you have to rely on me as your personal correction monitor? Bloody hell David, i had you down as intelligent if misguided, but i'm not sure. This is a link to a graph of gbp / eur exchange rate since 2000. The pound has been consistently weaker since 2016 than at any other time except for in the year or so following the GFC.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-spot/historical-spot-exchange-rates/gbp/GBP-to-EUR

I am not expecting the pound to rise against the euro; it will bimble along in the 1.08 to 1.14 area; the weakness the brexit issue has put into the economy has been largely baked in for a while.

The effect on the exchange rate on me has meant i have had to raise prices on goods i import from the EU and the far east (it has similarly adversely affected the dollar exchange rate). It has also meant I have had to pay between 10% and 15% more on every holiday since 2016, as these have been either in the Eurozone or in countries whose currency is fixed to the dollar (UAE dirham). The adverse effect on the lack of EU grants will be felt equally by everyone in my region as i am in an area that received more per capita than the UK average; UK government expenditure for the last 10 years has been massively london centric, and I will benefit not one jot from projects such as crossrail or HS2.

And apart from the fact that my plans for semi retirement to france or Sopain have been made much more difficult and costly (see exchange rate above), its all bloody brilliant.

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

The exchange rate was in January of each year :

09 - 1.06   10 - 1.11   11 - 1.17   12 - 1.20   13 - 1.22   14 - 1.20   15 - 1.25

As I said there was then a peak, that hit around 1.44, and as you say, since 2016  it has fallen back to 1.11 again.   So we don't disagree.

Post edited at 20:15
3
In reply to baron:

> It sounds every bit of devastating.

> My point wasn’t that it was in any way funny but that the trade had obviously been going on long before the EU was formed and will continue in some form in the future. Assuming there is still a demand for the product.

Yep, definitely knew you weren't trying to downplay it baron.

And yes, EU/European was a bit shoddy for Reuters. 

1
 baron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> Yep, definitely knew you weren't trying to downplay it baron.

> And yes, EU/European was a bit shoddy for Reuters. 

And purely by chance BBC2 has its This Fishing Life on tonight. Well worth a watch if you haven’t already seen it. 

 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> The exchange rate was in January of each year :

> 09 - 1.06   10 - 1.11   11 - 1.17   12 - 1.20   13 - 1.22   14 - 1.20   15 - 1.25

> As I said there was then a peak, that hit around 1.44, and as you say, since 2016  it has fallen back to 1.11 again.   So we don't disagree.

"Apart from a peak around 2016 the pound has been substantially the same against the Euro since 2008 when it was lower than now".

No it hasnt been. It has been significantly lower since mid '16 than before except for the gfc period. It was lower than its current rate for a period of a few weeks, and by early april had gained enough to be noticeably ahead.

We do not agree, unless you have now changed your position in the face of the facts provided.

1
 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

How do we disagree ?

 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

Here goes - i'm only humouring you as the current Mrs W is watching some shite on the telly and i'm under the headphones listening to some loud stuff (The Paul Rose Band, if you like british blues rock, give him a try; he's been suffering a bit through not being able to play live, which is where he is at home. I can offer subtitles from Geordie; he's an old schoolmate).

You said "Apart from a peak around 2016 the pound has been substantially the same against the Euro since 2008 when it was lower than now".

the plot shows that the pound spent approx 6 weeks below current rates in early 2008. It actually opened 2008 at 1.34 ish. After the gfc it rose pretty constantly to a high point of 1.44 in Q4 2015. Rather than a peak it was more a peaky plateau and it actually spent 2 years above 1.25. The referendum happened, and it dropped to 1.15 ish, and then further to 1.10 / 1/12 when it became clear that no deal or at best "thin deal" was on the cards (april / may 20 onwards).

Thats where we disagree. You reading of the graph is in my view, very selective. Further, I dont see it rising beyond 1.14 / 1.15; the economy is now much weaker, with weaker prospects from the brexit deal that many think, and we need to get a more competent approach to brexit (from the population as well as the government) if we are not to be weakened relatively more than our competitors by the effects of covid 19.

In reply to David Riley:

> How much has the exchange rate and termination of EU grants actually had an effect on you.  Do you expect to get any UK grants ?

Which bit of redundancies didn't you understand? 10 out of 90. I was on the list of potential redundancies. We're a research company. Historically, we have done a lot of EU funded research (various Framework programmes). After Brexit, that has dried up, unsurprisingly. You think it's going to be replaced by UK funding? Dream on. It hasn't been. Still, it's not been me this time. Just ten of my colleagues. Ha ha. F*ck them, eh? I'm all right, Jack.

The sterling:euro exhange rate has already been demonstrated to you.

If wealth and job security aren't important to you, maybe this will convince you...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/08/percy-pigs-in-ireland-hit-by-brexit-red-tape-as-m-and-s-warns-of-tariffs

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

I agree with all that, and find it consistent with my representation.  Except I think the pound will rise a lot more than 1.15, which is a very small amount.

Post edited at 22:06
1
 Ian W 08 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

then we'll have to agree to disagree on our level of er, accord. agreed?

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

Why don't you just say what you disagree with ?

2
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

> "To succeed outside the EU, we need to be fitter, leaner and more globally engaged".

> Anyone else just hearing 'work longer, less pay, no H&S, and let's not bother about carbon footprint'?

You forgot 'match fit'

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

So you know people it has caused problems for.  But so far not you.   All I was saying.

Percy Pigs in Ireland ?

6
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> You forgot 'match fit'

I like that one... 

In reply to David Riley:

> So you know people it has caused problems for.  But so far not you.   All I was saying.

You're certainly callous, and determined to not prove otherwise. 

1
In reply to David Riley:

> So you know people it has caused problems for.  But so far not you.   All I was saying.

You might have a 'f*ck you, Jack' attitude to your colleagues. I don't.

If you asked my ten colleagues if it has caused them problems, you would obviously get a different answer.

You're also forgetting the sterling devaluation.

Your implication was clearly that Brexit has caused no-one any problems at all, and that everything is rosy. I've pointed out experience of issues it has caused with personal wealth and potential job security, but you are prepared to brush those off as non issues. I think that pretty much sums up the your utterly deluded approach.

The pigs? I was taking the piss.

Post edited at 23:00
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> You forgot 'match fit'

Oh, yeah. Problems only make us stronger. Let's shoot both of our feet off. Then we'll learn to be more efficient at running without feet.

Thanks for those wise words, Pob. I thought Brexit was supposed to be about getting rid of red tape, not foisting yet more on us.

Of course, I never believed for one moment that this claim was true.

 David Riley 08 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Your implication was clearly that Brexit has caused no-one any problems at all,

No, I was merely demonstrating that life has hardly ended as we know it, since you have not yet even experienced any difference.

"As I recall press and media coverage was predicting virtually the end of life as we know it, were we stupid enough to vote to leave.

I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?"

6
In reply to David Riley:

So, despite the fact that people around me are losing their jobs, because I haven't lost mine (yet), everything is just fine and dandy?

How very Brexit.

I'm sure the view must be lovely from the helm of your felucca.

Post edited at 23:42
 David Riley 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

>  everything is just fine and dandy?

Why do you continue to be dishonest ?

3
 Ian W 09 Jan 2021
In reply to David Riley:

> As I recall press and media coverage was predicting virtually the end of life as we know it, were we stupid enough to vote to leave.

> I don't expect you can even think of any actual consequence it has brought for you yet ?


As I recall, the proponents and promoters of the leave campaign (including large sections of the press) were promising a brilliant future for an independent UK, with fabulous prospects across the globe.

I don't expect you can even think of any actual benefits it has brought for you yet?

Post edited at 01:05
In reply to David Riley:

> Why do you continue to be dishonest ?

What do you think I'm being dishonest about?

 Rob Parsons 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> The US dream was true in the fifties and early sixties.

I'm curious you write that, since:

1. How would you personally know?

2. I don't think Martin Luther King Jr. would agree.

 David Riley 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

Claiming I said, or in anyway claimed "everything is just fine and dandy".

Or that it is alright people are losing their jobs.

Rather than answer what I said.   Pretending I said something different.

Post edited at 01:39
1
In reply to David Riley:

You keep asking me if I have been personally affected by it. I can only assume your implication is that if I haven't, then there is nothing I should worry about; in other words, everything is fine and dandy.

If you don't mean that, what exactly do you mean?

I am affected by seeing my colleagues lose their jobs. I am affected by seeing other people lose their jobs. I am affected by many other things that Brexit is causing.

Are you not affected by these things? Do you deny they have happened?

Or, if you accept they have happened, and you are affected by these things, do you accept that Brexit has had a negative effect on us?

Or, if you are affected, do you feel positive about these things? Maybe, Gove-like, you think people losing their jobs should be seen as an opportunity to get 'match fit'; to move on to bigger and better things. Like zero hours contracts, perhaps? Or the dole?

Just what was the point of your question: what do you mean?

 Jim Lancs 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Rob Parsons:

The "American Dream" has been a defined concept for 90 years - upwards mobility through hardwork and self reliance in a society full of opportunity. There's no denying it was a reality for many in the post war boom years but I don't think I claimed it was a universal franchise.

The irony today is that it's a reality for even fewer people than it was 50 years ago. If you draw up a league table of countries around the world where 'the American Dream' is most achievable, I doubt the US would appear anywhere near the top of that list. But for the right, convincing people it's still possible is a useful smoke screen as they, at best do nothing to help and at worse, enact endless policies to make the rich richer and poor stay where they are. 

Post edited at 09:46
 David Riley 09 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

You said the media failed to warn people of the consequences of Brexit.

I said they predicted outrageous consequences, which are so far from reality that most people have felt no direct effect at all, and you are one of those.

3
In reply to David Riley:

I think it will take a nuclear holocaust for you to acknowledge that anything untoward has occurred.

Day to day - just about every hour - my kids regret that they can no longer plan to live and work in Europe, something my daughter has been intending to do since she was 16. (We only thought we might retire there for a few years, but we can get over that.)

Scottish fishing has been decimated, they've suddenly discovered that their traditional - only - market is closed to them. Other fisherman have acquired marginal extra fishing rights at the cost of not being able to sell their catches to their traditionall markets. Any number of UK manufacturing companies have suddenly discovered - in the last 6 days - that what they thought was possible - exporting tariff free - is not possible because of the small print. If we don't have pictures on the TV about lorries parked up on the M20, it's because transport firms are rather brighter than Grant Schapps and aren't sending out trucks until they know they can get through customs. This is not a sustainable position. Oh, and there's now a hard border in the middle of the Irish Sea, but that's OK because no-one knows how to cross it anyway so lorries are staying put and supermarket shelves being emptied. 

And all for what?

 Vigier 09 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

Having bought a small apartment in France just before the financial crash of 2008 with a French mortgage , I lived through the financial pain of seeing the pound crash against the euro. It was recovering nicely from that until the 2016 EU ref vote and has been languishing ever since. I reckon this has cost me several thousand pounds ( I prefer not trying to calculate it!).

In addition, now I am retired , I have had the unrestricted access to my property any time during the year removed from me by the Brexit vote, now having to adhere to the Schengen rules or apply for a long stay visa.

It really pisses me off having to listen to Brexiteers telling me, and anyone adversely affected by Brexit, that it’s no big deal!


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