UKC

Fair rate of pay for DIY jobs?

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 abr1966 13 Sep 2021

Any opinions/experience appreciated...

Basically I'm pretty poor at DIY......my neighbour is very good and can do most things really well, he's out of work for the next 4 weeks and we have agreed that I'll give him some jobs like fixing a leaking tap, cleaning gutters, some painting, re-felting the shed roof etc....it was an OK but slightly awkward conversation as he said he was happy to just do some things for me but I do know he is skint and he agreed that I'd pay him....and really appreciate his help as I really do!

Question for the ukc hive....what's a fair hourly rate? 

Thanks...

 Jmacquarrie 13 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

Don't know where you are in the country but down here (Hertfordshire) that sort of thing is £25+ hour for a handyman, so £15-20 given the situation you've described would sound about right?

If you were going to do this yourself and are helping him out then you might want to pay a bit less, if you were going to get someone in anyway and he's good at it then pay him what you would have had to shell out to a professional.

Post edited at 21:54
 abr1966 13 Sep 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

Thanks....I'm in the Peak....cheaper further north I guess!!?

 Jmacquarrie 13 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

Fair enough, cost of living is pretty horrendous here so wages tend to reflect that.

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Post edited at 22:04
 Hardonicus 13 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

I'd be looking to pay a rate depending on the specific task. I mean you would expect to pay more for fixing a tap than re-hanging the door on yer wife's dusty wardrobe.

 profitofdoom 13 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

> Any opinions/experience appreciated... > Basically I'm pretty poor at DIY......my neighbour is very good and can do most things really well, he's out of work for the next 4 weeks and we have agreed that I'll give him some jobs like fixing a leaking tap, cleaning gutters, some painting, re-felting the shed roof etc....it was an OK but slightly awkward conversation as he said he was happy to just do some things for me but I do know he is skint and he agreed that I'd pay him....and really appreciate his help as I really do! > Question for the ukc hive....what's a fair hourly rate? 

Please please think about insurance. I heard a couple of months ago that a friend of mine who lives in Hong Kong (UK courts and law system) paid a neighbour to do his roof. The neighbour fell off the roof* and died. My friend has been in a court case** with the guy's family for the last 3 years and it's not going well

*roof of a house

**they're seeking huge compensation, and also want to see him in prison

Post edited at 22:17
 finneyles 13 Sep 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

also something written down as for your agreement? a guy i know is out of pocket about 30 grand from a verbal agreement with his friend, who died and now his daughters being pretty awkward.

In reply to abr1966:

About £15-20 an hour in Congleton..........

In reply to abr1966:

Rate is £20 an hour in Holmfirth. You'd better get a verbal agreement. I guess he's using his own tools and maybe some materials his has at hand.

 OrangeBob 14 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

Will he declare the earnings?

If he's 'unemployed' he might need to tell people he's not working. If he's getting Tax Credits or Universal Credit he might need to prove he is working.

If the payment won't be declared he won't pay tax and you could knock a bit off for that. 

I would think matters of insurance, as in your liability for him if he falls off a ladder or something, would depend on whether he counts as a self employed tradesperson, or an employee of yours. If he breaks a window with this bothersome ladder I guess he won't have insurance to pay for that.

If you offer him a coffee put lots of cold water in it in case he scalds himself...

Maybe just give him £20 and get someone else in, this is turning into a minefield

 Sean_J 14 Sep 2021
In reply to Hardonicus:

>  re-hanging the door on yer wife's dusty wardrobe

Sounds a lot ruder than probably intended!

In reply to abr1966:

I would just bung him £100 a day, yes it's tax free earnings and you will both go to hell but if he is off for a few weeks and warns a few quid on the side who cares. If its short term out of work (you mentioned 4 weeks) by the time his claim goes in he will be working anyway. 

 PaulJepson 14 Sep 2021
In reply to OrangeBob:

This thread has depressed me no end. What a world we live in.

 profitofdoom 14 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> This thread has depressed me no end. What a world we live in.

I know what you mean, Paul. What a litigious world we do indeed live in, where e.g. a woman drives away with a hot Mcdonalds coffee on her seat, burns herself when it spills, then successfully sues Mcdonalds for damages. Where we lend money to a friend and he/ she doesn't pay it back

 john arran 14 Sep 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

I think it's more that a very rare occurrence of a good deed resulting in a costly and apparently unjust outcome generates so much publicity that ordinary people then become overly concerned that something similar might end up happening to them.

Internet-propagated scare stories, even if true, are often a real obstacle to people being kind and helpful to each other.

 profitofdoom 14 Sep 2021
In reply to john arran:

> I think it's more that a very rare occurrence of a good deed resulting in a costly and apparently unjust outcome generates so much publicity that ordinary people then become overly concerned that something similar might end up happening to them.

> Internet-propagated scare stories, even if true, are often a real obstacle to people being kind and helpful to each other.

OK, thanks. You made some good points

In reply to profitofdoom:

> What a litigious world we do indeed live in, where e.g. a woman drives away with a hot Mcdonalds coffee on her seat, burns herself when it spills, then successfully sues Mcdonalds for damages.

The PR goons from McDonald's really earned their pay by turning this into the textbook example of a frivolous lawsuit but it wasn't really anything of the sort...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13971482/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit-stella-liebeck

Plus you have to bear in mind the horrendous American healthcare system that loaded her up with bills.

Post edited at 19:07
 jonfun21 14 Sep 2021
In reply to Luke90:

thanks for posting that - really interesting 

 Siward 14 Sep 2021
In reply to john arran:

The Internet has ruined our world. Discuss. 

 Kevster 14 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

Just tell him its a hundred quid a day. Lunch and a few beers after included.
If he feels thats short, he'll work a short day or tell you. If he feels its good value, he'll work harder and longer. No significant clock watching or squabbles about 15 minutes here or there like an hourly rate promotes. 
Offers an end point - one day.

You could choose to help him, depends what sort of handicap you are with respect to DIY, even if its tidy up and carry tools at the start and finish, or doing a few jobs along side him. 

Beer at the end makes it friendly rather than just work. And you get a chance to really express your appreciation for his efforts. 

Dont know what his day job is, but it may be better take home anyway.

In reply to Siward:

> The Internet has ruined our world. Discuss.

On the Internet? 🙃

 Siward 15 Sep 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

No, let's a few of us swap names and addresses and correspond by pen and ink. 

 Lankyman 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Siward:

> No, let's a few of us swap names and addresses and correspond by pen and ink. 

Invisible ink - so Facebook can't snoop

 Jamie Wakeham 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Dax H:

That's exactly the approach I would take.  Yes, really, it should be getting declared, and I despise those who use cash-in-hand payment to dodge HMRC a systematic part of their business model.  They're stealing from all of us.  

On the other hand, a couple of weeks' payment to someone who is genuinely between jobs is fair enough.  If it's less than £1000 then HMRC don't even want to know - it will be given a pass under the Trading Allowance.  And if it's a bit more than that I can't bring myself to get exercised by it!

 LastBoyScout 15 Sep 2021
In reply to john arran:

> Internet-propagated scare stories, even if true, are often a real obstacle to people being kind and helpful to each other.

This, from a couple of years ago, might be a good reminder of why you should consider insurance...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/no_good_deed_goes_unpunished-693039

In reply to Siward:

> The Internet has ruined our world. Discuss. 

I would say it has undoubtedly helped us to create the shape of what we have in the  connected part of the world be that good or bad 

 argue that when town criers became common in England it stopped  the spread of news by the population,  or church  The population at this point stopped spreading its own news received it from the source in away that the Internet is now the source. 

the internet issues could be applicable to past  industrial revolutions as well as this current industrial revolution 

 I further wonder if  through the evil of television and the  relaxing of regulation the softening of classifications of violence  brutality and pornography  along with the removal of considered conversation  that has been replaced with soundbites and reality game shows  in the last 60 years is to some extent blamed upon the Internet  now that the pigeons are coming home to roost 

 Internet has its good sides I’m struggling to think  of any that are other than selfish short termism cheap flights for instance  

 Looking forward I do feel it has stolen the childhood or altered the childhood of many of today’s Internet children  interpersonal skills are not necessary on the Internet, being in love with your Tamagotchi or avatar doesn’t do much for mankind oops womankind 

 compost 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> This thread has depressed me no end. What a world we live in.

I find all this fascinating - we hear about the 7 shark attack deaths every year or the one woman who sues McDonalds, or the tragic deaths of cyclists on roads...

...but we don't hear about the hundreds of millions of safe swims from the beach, or the takeaway coffees successfully drunk, or the successful bike journeys and the corresponding benefits through improved health.

The media thrives on the weird, the sensational or those things that create an evolutionary response of fear. The effect then is to create an irrational fear of the freak stuff.

When did you last hear of a guy successfully paying his mate £100 to do some diy and have a beer, when everything went swimmingly and his wife's dusty wardrobe door is now well-hung?

 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to compost:

Think also what those millions of cash in hand payments might have provided with the dodged tax. I've nothing against people doing small favours for each other with payment for cost of materials and genuine expenses incurred but once payments for labour become involved there are issues to consider.  For anyone who could afford to employ someone to do the work It's always possible to pay the going rate for the job and encourage declaration.

Post edited at 11:12
 compost 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed - I'm operating under the assumption that the majority of people follow the rules and the provider of services pays the right amount of tax. Optimistic? Probably. Naive? Maybe. 

That said, I'd rather HMRC focused on Amazon than Pete from 2 doors down who has a temporary cash issue

 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to compost:

Absolutely with you on the Amazon vs Pete point.

In reply to Offwidth:

The so called black economy is considerably more than Amazons Uk turnover.....so from a tax point of view whilst its great to have a go at Amazon...its a bit debateable as whether it stands up to a bit of scrutiny.

Post edited at 12:06
 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

I disagree.  The effect of one of the worlds biggest multinationals getting away with abusing tax loopholes and having a history of lies on worker explotation (especially in actively preventing unionisation) has a very negative effect  on our democracy. The army of Pete's do not and as far as I'm aware the revenue chase down evey Pete they know of.

In reply to Offwidth:

Amazon paid £492m in direct taxation ( corporation tax ) last year.Its Uk  tunover was £20 billion.

UK black economy is easily £200 bn plus.( so at least 10 times bigger and with no tax paid).

Post edited at 12:55
 compost 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

But in terms of cost per £ recovered, it's not value for money for tax inspectors to go after every sole trader, casual labourer and car boot saler.

It's more cost efficient to focus on the small number of big businesses that are likely to make up the majority of avoided tax revenue.

Edit: Unless we want to create an army of tax inspectors incentivised by the recoveries they make, like the proverbial traffic wardens :-D 

Post edited at 13:01
In reply to compost:

That is why HMRC has dedicated teams on these big companies.

You also have to look at the numbers broadly speaking it means that Amazons profits are in the range of  £2b/£ 3 bn a year so they would be paying about £500 million in corporation tax.Looks about right for what they do.

You might not like them ( I do not buy anything online from them as I disagree with their business model), but it looks OKish.

No doubt they take advanatge of R and D tax credits and the like, but there again so does every UK business.

The move to a cashless society menas that small traders etc etcdays are slowly and inevitably vanishing/reducing..

Post edited at 13:05
 artif 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

>.( so at least 20 times bigger and with no tax paid).

Only if you don't spend it, most items include vat etc so there will be taxes gathered from it.

There is some interesting reading on the US states that don't have state income tax. From my cursory look into it, they seem to be doing very well.

 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

So what? Most of that direct tax is because they can't avoid National Insurance for their employees nor business rates. The corporation tax rates are still dreadfully unfair. Why on earth are you defending this behaviour? Why is the UK government not supporting the Biden plans for fairer tax from multinationals like most of the EU are?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/07/amazon-uk-arm-pays-38m-more-corporation-tax-despite-19bn-sales-rise

Post edited at 13:13
 compost 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

Amazon is a useful villain for a flippant comment above but the data does stack up: Of the £31bn estimated tax gap in 2018-19, £5.3bn is believed to be from large businesses; £2.4bn from individuals.

In terms of the behaviours creating the tax gap, £4.9bn is due to legal interpretation of tax legislation - ie loopholes. Pete from 2 doors down doesn't have a legal team advising him to have a HQ in Dublin.

Again, I think there's more bang for buck to be generated by focusing on the big boys.

Measuring tax gaps 2020 edition: Tax gap estimates for 2018 to 2019 (publishing.service.gov.uk

Post edited at 13:17
In reply to Offwidth:

Quite relaxed about it, I just get annoyed when people moan about Amazon and the like when they do not know that they are actually paying corporation tax....and clearly posters did not know this.

The UK has been pushing for changes in  tax from multinationals ever since Osborne's day. Govts of all sorts need the cash these days.Hardly new.

In reply to compost:

As I said they have dedicated teams of HMRC people already doing that so the bang for the buck is already there.

If it was me I would focus on the small and mid size accountants and shake those up a bit.But I suspect they already know the good and bad ones.

The only loop holes you can really close down on are things like rand d tax credits etc ( but then that can be self defeating if you want innovation and r and d)

Its always easy throwing these things around, but more difficult to put into practise.

 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

You would need to be an idiot to think Amazon pay no corporation tax, given so many news  headlines highlight the main problem as being they pay far too little. As per the Guardian link above on the £18.3 million corporation tax return for Amazon UK Services in 2020:

"Amazon UK Services – the group’s warehouse and logistics operation, thought to employ the majority of the group’s UK workforce – was £18.3m in the year to December 2020, up 26%..... Profits  rose by a quarter to £128m, while sales soared by 64% to £4.85bn."

Are you really relaxed with those numbers?

Post edited at 15:34
In reply to Offwidth:

Warehousing and logistics is a notoriously competitive business with low margins , there are plenty of othe players who can give Amazon a  competitive ride.So that sort of margin does not surprise me in the least.

I would be looking at their cloud and data management services if it was me.Thats their earner, you are looking in the wrong place.

Post edited at 15:50
 Offwidth 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

I'm not aware of other similar companies in logistics and warehousing that pay that low comparative level of corporation tax. If they existed I'm sure the fair tax foundation would be publising their unfairness as well.

https://fairtaxmark.net/silicon-six-end-the-decade-with-100-billion-tax-shortfall/

 compost 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neilh:

> The UK has been pushing for changes in  tax from multinationals ever since Osborne's day. Govts of all sorts need the cash these days.Hardly new.

There's pushing and there's 'pushing' - As an example Cameron publicly said at the G8 that we need more transparency over shell companies and offshore banking but privately was writing to <I think> the head of the IMF <correct me if I'm wrong please> urging them not to go too far.

How many of the Lords were implicated in the Panama papers? How many shell companies provide just enough plausible deniability for Matt Hancock to enrich his friends in a pandemic?

I worked for a business with its head office in the Bahamas. What it really meant was it employed one person to manage a post box and polish a brass plate on the wall. Saved £millions in tax. The government refused to prevent that as "it risked the jobs in the Finance sector in British overseas territories". These jobs are, largely, nonsense.

Anyway, sorry OP. I reckon £20 an hour and as much tea as he can drink!

In reply to Offwidth:

The likes of Stobart, Wincanton etc are hardly main stream news and just do not generate public interest in respect of " fairness" compared with the silicon 6.So its a bit of a self defeating article when understanding the compeitiveness of that sector.

If you read the financial press( crikey there have even been articles on it in the Sunday Times) you will have seen plenty  pointing out that Amazons big money spinner is their cloud and computing services ( and it will no doubt be spun off in the future). Its hardly big news.

Post edited at 16:21
 henwardian 15 Sep 2021
In reply to abr1966:

Based on my recent experience in NW Scotland it would be around £15 to £20 per hour.

Post edited at 16:17
In reply to Offwidth:

> Think also what those millions of cash in hand payments might have provided with the dodged tax. I've nothing against people doing small favours for each other with payment for cost of materials and genuine expenses incurred but once payments for labour become involved there are issues to consider.  

There is a big difference between a tradesman doing jobs for cash or a small shop that mainly takes cash pocketing a chunk of the money and a person bunging a few quid to another person for a few days whilst they are between jobs. 

In 2019 I spent a day working with a mate using my hi-ab crane to swap out the engine on his boat. It saved him a fortune in dry Dock fees and I enjoyed doing something different. 

That night he took myself and my wife out for a good meal. The bill came to about £200 for the 4 of us. Should I have declared that to the hmrc? My truck costs about 45p per mile to run and it was about a 10 mile round trip plus maybe £5 worth of diesel whilst the crane was in use so I was about £90 up on the day and enjoyed myself too. 


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