UKC

So, my local (and only) supermarket seems to be having a lot of problems with food shortages these days. Most fruit, veg, bread, eggs and other fresh produce is gone by about midday and there isn't really any point in trying to shop at all past about 4pm.

Is this an issue across the UK/Scotland? Or is it just a local thing?

pingdemic?

Lots of people contacted by track and trace, so lots self isolating. Shortages of staff all over.

Quite a few shelves running low of late around me (York). I assume it's a mix of covid isolation orders and brexit.

jk

Where I work has had a few issues with some products. It would be a miracle if it wasn't so given the situation. One of the bakeries had a covid  problem (infection or pinging?) and so buns were bulk ordered from other suppliers to compensate. It would be disastrous not to be bunned up to the max at peak barbie time. Frozen peas seem to be down in quantity. I think we need to give peas a chance before we decide it's due to covid though.

Massive under-supply of freight drivers. Due to self isolation, and EU drivers having gone home.

Been building for weeks.

https://www.google.com/search?q=haulage+driver+shortage

Oddly enough we seem to be having the same problems in Cyprus.  Bleeding tricky to be vegetarian without vegetables.

Plus on farm labour shortages and food processing places being ideal covid breading grounds, so infection or pings being v.likely 

Yeah, I mean, I know there is pingdemic, covid and brexit all conspiring to mess things up and I've read a few articles with dire predictions of shortages right and left.

But these kind of doom and gloom predictions are pretty standard news fare and I was wondering whether in real shops, on the ground, there was actually much of an impact being noticed (it's tourist season up here so could just have been the shop just can't keep up).

From what everyone else has said though, it does seem to be genuinely affecting shop shelves across the nation. Interesting.

Not a lot of variety in our supermarket today. Particularly fresh stuff.

Haven't noticed anything, I split my food shopping between Edinburgh and Livingston. Even pleasantly surprised how much was still there for the taking on Saturday evening.

Hmm, actually good to know that at least some shops are keeping up with demand, that suggests that while there are problems with supply chains and things are getting patchy, there isn't an overall shortage and we are probably not yet at the point where fresh food would need to be rationed.

I don't remember food shortages being mentioned on the side of the bus... Obviously Project Fear? 

Lots of blaeberries in the woods just now if you are short of fruit!

I just popped into my local Tesco Express, on the way back from climbing, and noticed just how poor the stock availability was in the fridges and freezers.  It’s must have been 30% empty with some sections less than half full.

Interesting - I’ve struggled to get various bits of fresh veg recently in north Wales. Mostly salad stuff that I’ve noticed not being able to get. I had put it down to it being prime BBQ season/week, but perhaps there’s more to it than that

In reply to Rawn1962:

That's normal, isn't it...?

On the plus side that's still 70% full. Winner winner chicken dinner (if that's in the 70%)

I've noticed a decline in the range available in my Sainsbury's (a big superstore on the edge of Oxford).  Seems to be withdrawal of lines, not just a temporary inability to stock them; there aren't empty spaces, just that a particular product disappears and the ones surrounding it expand a little to fill the gap.  Generally it's the higher end options that seem to be going.

Haven't been able to buy flageolet beans for a year or more, for example.  Almost all of the free range pork has gone, including their rather good chorizo, and most of their free range chicken.  Quite a few spices missing.  I'm getting quite used to standing in the queue, ebaying for whatever the thing I couldn't get today was.

Much less selection in salad section of my local supermarket (Tesco) in past 6 months or so.  Last couple of months there’s usually just whole lettuces and very little of the more interesting leaves.

Recently there have been shortages of most other fruit and veg too, large empty spaces in the fresh meat shelves and fairly empty looking freezers.

It's probably just 'Project Fear'. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Of course, it could be a move to get back to our glorious WW2 past, and the reintroduction of rationing.

In reply to Rawn1962:

Doesn't seem to be any pork shortages, oddly enough.

I'm always surprised that Cyprus hasn't disappeared under the waves yet. Cyprus potatoes always seem to have half a fields worth of soil on them.

My Tesco was quite poor for a month or two after Brexit completed (odd things like bacon not being available in the cut I wanted) but has been relatively normal of late...

There's a knock-on from the pubs re-opening with limited menus - so burger buns are in massive demand and it has been difficult to forecast demand and, as you say, covid issues affecting workforce in the factories. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a bun shortage this summer.

Haven't noticed any major issues in the supermarkets, a few things out of stock, but nothing dramatic.

In no particular order shortages I have noticed over the past 3 months at my local Tesco:

Pitta bread, particularly the wholemeal variety (made in Ireland according to the packaging on some I have in my freezer), Sainsbury's seems to have them though.

Garden Peas (tinned), Olives (small tins), Sardines (tins), Machego (though had some for the first time this week), odd bits of fruit and veg (you never can tell what will be in or what missing).

There are probably other things too but these are the ones I've been looking for

In reply to Rawn1962:

Scotmid has a fruit and vegetable shelf?! F*ck me. Where do they find room for the square sausage and Buckfast?

Square sausage, hmm, those where the days, no attempt to turn the mechanically reclaimed hoof into any shape vaguely resembling food...

That could be dangerous; it could turn into a bunfight...

Interestingly (or not) Sharwood of mango chutney fame made his first big deal by noticing a drought in France was going to affect tinned peas so bought 500,000 tins from Holland and cornered the UK market.

The general shortages in the UK are from Brexit, it keeps giving. Less mangetout, more turnips is the future!

You missed an opportunity:

"Less mangetout, more mangelwurzel is the future!"

Mangolds are foriegn muck from the Mediteranean, turnips are at least probably N European.

Some of the big (cheaper?) supermarket chains are having 'shortages' and then suddenly finding stock which is appearing on the shelf at a higher price. I have left it there. The prices will return to normal eventually. It is mostly happening on UK foodstuffs, and the EU produced stuff is in plentiful supply. 

I may be a cynic, but it looks to me like exploiting the situation!

There's a shortage of delivery drivers.

If we'd trained ALL the refugees crossing the channel to be lorry drivers, we STILL be 50,000 short!

I was thinking maybe the asylum seekers could be given jobs picking fruit and veg... You know, now that we've sent all the EU migrants home...

For weeks and weeks now here in leafy Surrey there have been gaps on the shelves. it seems to be getting worse in the last couple of weeks, predominantly fresh veg, salad, fruit. Some random "Dry" goods - Coke, some cereals, some biscuits, generally less choice e.g. Iceberg lettuce or mini gems, sod all else. 

For the last few months it's been noticable that best before dates are much shorter than before too. I used to be able to shop once a week for everything, now I have to buy 2-3 days of veg and top up

Annoyingly less choice means less loose stuff available, so for instance I haven't been able to buy any Jacket potatoes for Weeks at sainsbury because they are all in bags of 6+ with a BB date of 2-3days and there is only one of me.

Can't you eat cake?

Potatoes will last weeks beyond the BBE date, kept properly.

What a silly idea!

Priti’s plan to put them in jail for 4 years is much better. 

In 2019/20, the average cost of a prison place in England and Wales was £44.6 thousand pounds/year. So the cost of imprisoning just the 8000+ asylum seekers who have already crossed the Channel this year would be over £350 million pounds/year, or over £1.4 billion pounds total by the end of their term, not counting the cost of building all the extra prisons needed.

Yet more evidence of the clear sighted thinking of our great leaders!

It seems to be a Nationwide problem, lack of staff due to various problems. Furlough seems to be a big reason why people are not available for work. I was in a service station the other day and a haulage company was as offering 60k plus a new Mercedes truck with all the mod cons. 
 

I run a business myself and am finding it virtually impossible to find staff , despite spending a shed load of cash on advertising. 
Brexit/Covid. We are screwed ! 

The answer is for all the pseudo-philosophers on here to turn back to being working class! So get them to go back to work, and get their hands dirty.

Please remember to support no jab no job and vaccine passport policies so we can reduce the available recruitment pool even more.

In reply to Rawn1962:

Perhaps the all left and came back under new accounts and are now playing silly buggers over covid instead.

Isn't that how deliveries work?

Is that such a bad thingthat their pay is improving?

Hauliers have been poorly paid for a long time and are undervlaued.Its a viewed crappy job as their customers tend to treat them at the bottom of the pile.Its also a competitive business with margins been driven to the floor.Big business generally treats them with contempt and I know plenty of people who hunt round for penny savings on shipping goods around.

Although a small business we always treat any  lorry drivers doing pickups/drops off with respect and courtesy. If stuck outside waiting they get offered a cup of tea ( which always shocks them). I am always amazed about how nervous most drivers look when they ask you if they can use the toilets ( ita almost as thought they expect a load of verbal abuse).

There has been a shortage of drivers for years.

Chickens coming home to roost is my view on the current situation.

In reply to Rawn1962:

No. They are happily getting on with their lives instead of whinging on endless, desperate, remainer nonsense threads.

Supermakets have very sophisticated pricing strategies and their profit margins are not large, after all its a competitive business with considerable  competition.

If there was only 1 in town I would agree with you. Exploiting is not really commercially viable.

Brexit - the gift that keeps giving.

I've been part of a campaign lobbying for asylum seekers being given the right to work, and said ages ago that the gov't will agree tot this once they realise brexit = loss of farm labour.  Watch this space.

The local Co-Op here in south Manchester has had shortages for over a week, complete with signs apologising for it. There were big gaps in the shelves yesterday evening. There seemed to be the usual number of staff in the shop though.

There, FTFY.

I pretty much used that line word for word on a YouTube comment this morning.

Use the correct word coerce please, don't delude yourself that those actions are persuasion. 

Nothing wrong with coercion or nudging.

My local Morrisways has stopped selling YR brown sauce,  I'm not a happy man

Nothing to do with Ireland not accepting dodgy English sausages?

I was in Gairloch earlier this month and the local shop was having problems too for a few days. This was a delivery problem as all the usual people working in the shop were there, just the shelves were low. It sorted itself out after a few days but I can imagine it happening again.

Dave

Nice business opportunity for their mates when they decide to privatise asylum detention services...

You could equate coercion to nudging someone off a cliff if they don't agree, that'd be a fair comparison. Maybe I'll start nudging people out of the way when I'm in a hurry in future since it's so morally acceptable.

Seems to be attracting dustbin lorry drivers, so some councils cannot run rubbish collections...

* other words are available; use whichever you think is appropriate. As long as it means more people get vaccinated, i really don't care.

There, FTFY even more! 

They already have, haven't they? This is just a decent business expansion proposal, designed to help the privatised prison service.

Well it depends and there is the moral dilemma.  If I nudge you out of the way to save more  people lives than who is right.  
 

If you want to understand this at the basic level then I highly recommend Michael Sandels excellent lectures on this subject.

Seems to me that you're taking a few liberties there.

More like nudging someone away from the cliff edge because they've read on Facebook that jumping is good for you.

Still, I don't think coercion is the best way to tackle vaccine hesitancy.

No, genuine coercion could backfire and puts other vaccination programs at risk of the deliberate anti-vaccination agitation that will capitalise on the coercion.

Expecting businesses operating with some of the highest risk environments, such as nightclubs, to take reasonable measures to protect their staff and customers doesn't feel like coercion to me.

I can't tell how many liberties I'm being accused of taking in that case.

It is coercion whether you decide to feel it or not.

Hopefully your threshold requirement to admit coercion is somewhere lower than imprisonment, it'd be good to know where you and others stand on that.

I am quite relaxed over it on the simple basis other peoples lives/hospitalisations come into play. In public health situations like this then the rights of the individual are often- unfortuantley- pushed down the list of priorities.

You are not an antivaxer per se as i read it, but you personnaly struggle with this coercion/nudging issue. I get that

Its really not a new issue but the principle has been around for a long time- ..like the game of who do you push out of the hot air ballon if its falling to the ground.

To an extent I understand, but I feel we need a delineated redline to say beyond a certain point this is unacceptable. Unfortunately we've had so much U-turning and indecision I think for many it still would be met with mistrust. I definitely have great fear about people accepting more of these little steps towards a coercive and repressive state and only realising when it's too late, or perhaps never realising at all.

For me forcing people to be economically unable to provide for themselves is wrong. This is what we'd effectively be doing if we extend such requirements beyond just nightclubs and larger venues (temporarily, allegedly). I assume we're all happy to pay benefits to all the unvaccinated who could theoretically be out of work? Or are we happy to let individuals and families become homeless? I'm comfortable with neither.

Its a virus and it spreads to other people thats the issue. Are you a smoker/non smoker..do you wear a seat belt...motor bike helmet...its no different to those other dilemmas.

We all accept you do not smoke in certain area--like nightclubs---where is the real difference?

As I said earlier watch Michael Sandels lectures on this, he poses the questions starting simply and then builds up to complex areas of public health etc. It gets you thinking.

Usefully the press have all gone with carefully cropped pictures on the one empty shelf they could find in the supermarket today (I notice more than one publication has even used the very same shelf - Sun & Mail, and the other empty shelf has been used in the Star, Mirror & Express).

Helpful, as ever. F'kin thanks, the press. That'll help the situation. Still, I guess if they incite panic buying they'll get an easy story on panic buying, because they can just cut and paste last year's copy. Tw*ts.

Do you want pro-diseasers working for you?

And has the photographer carefully emptied it first. I recall one of those "panic buying" photos from last year which was widely shared was reported in Private Eye as having slightly suspicious origins eg the person being photographed working for the same bureau as the photographer.

Yes but then I work for a biowarfare lab.

They've probably seen enough of lorries TBH.

They could have headlined that Spanish fruit and vegetable exports to the UK dropped by 6% in volume (weight) and increased by 6% in value for the first quarter 2021. Brexit.

But that's a much less interesting and more irritating headline. They could have gone with "9 out of 10 people wish you'd stfu about brexit". Yes, brexit was a shit idea. WE KNOW! Ffs. We'd just stopped talking about it.

not sure you can pin the empty banana shelf photo on it though, unless you're going to tell me brexit induced climate change means brexiteers can now grow bananas in Spain because brexit.

They do grow bananas on the Canaries

Now I guess it is possible that people are panic buying, but tonight's trip to my local mini Tesco showed an empty freezer section, and other empty shelves.

They did have a lot of buns on discount, so maybe that's ringing in the bun supply chain. No bunfights here.

I have three mini-supermarkets within a mile and a half (i.e. in this and the adjacent village). Beef has been unavailable for a month, though minced beef is still plentiful. Fresh veg has similarly been patchy for about a month. There has been no leaf available this week except bags of kale. No bread shortage, though.

I'm viewing all of this as a good thing, as the issue seems mainly to be supply-chain driven. Hence the butcher is doing roaring trade; the farm shops are too; the local flower shop has diversified into fresh local veg; and the village square market, once moribund and reduced to a couple of stalls selling batteries and lightbulbs, is now thriving again.

I was thinking maybe they could be afforded their dignity.

I was thinking people would recognise the irony.

But are you suggesting fruit and veg picking is a job with no dignity? No wonder we can't find pickers in the UK. It's a perfectly honourable, paid job.

Speaking of burger buns, does anyone else think that a brioche bun is totally unsuited to wrap round bits of  a dead cow and is far preferable to eat with cream cheese and blackcurrant or blueberry jam?

Apart from the fact that they seem to lack the required structural integrity, no.

Brioche for burgers is right up there on my “signs of the apocalypse” list.  The only way to make it worse is to serve the damned thing on a slate or a wooden plate.  

Geologically speaking, it's still rising from them!  

Things are terrible around here.  

We only have one choice of mustard now.  And they've not had the quail eggs in stock for a couple of days now.  

There's hardly any lavatory paper left either- only that cheap 'recycled', stuff, and I'm certainly not letting my valet wipe my arse with that.

(ps, I'd suggest you make the chauffeur do your shopping in the morning)

The answer is obvious.  Just ignore the warnings:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57937342

There's a garden centre/cafe/fish seller place half way between ripon and Harrogate where I was once served fish and chips on a floor tile, complete with pattern on the back to enhance suction.

Seems more likely that they all buy photos from the same agencies rather than those being the only two shelves in the country.  

Ftfy

Most of the bananas in our local supermarket are grown in France (Martinique).

ps no shortages of food in our local shops here in the Alps

About 10% of our workforce is unvaccinated and I would not support forcing them to have it under threat of unemployment or worse.

Making people unable to legally earn a living unless they have 2 or more (theoretically endless with boosters) medical interventions is fundamentally different to the examples you provide. It'd perhaps be equivalent to creating an injection that stops all recipients from wanting to smoke, then mandating that you must have it or you will be outcast from society. 

If you and others can state a redline for severity of imposition or time limits to be held accountable to perhaps I can move towards your point of view, however I don't expect many will. People seem to want to reserve the right to support any level of authoritarianism now, and of course it's impossible for that to come back and bite us.

It's more like creating an injection that stops most recipients from breathing out deadly smoke. In fact it is exactly that.

Yes!! Finally, the key issue is being acknowledged in all this bun talk.  I do like an occasional burger and the trend for sweet bread as part of it is just so wrong. Don't get me started on burgers in ciabatta.

Except of course that most aren't breathing out deadly smoke in the first place and everyone who wants to be protected from deadly smoke can be. Oh and the deadly smoke isn't deadly to everyone and can still be transmitted by those protected from said deadly smoke.

Still hearing crickets on theoretical limits to restrictions. What's your redline LSRH? 

Enough are

No, they really can't. It's not 100% and not everyone can have it.

Not heard of it giving anyone superpowers yet

Yep. So... you're asking for cake and eaten cake? [1]

Don't understand the question. What are you asking?

It is is an old and tired argument.

Its a rehash of every individual liberty argument put forward in such cases as banning smoking in public spaces, motor cycyle helmets, wearing seatbelts, drink driving , flouride in water and so on.You can even push it on to things like safety boots in work shops( you use to get that from employees who wanted to wear trainers in workshops), safety helemts on building sites and so on.

Do you wear a seat belt? Perhaps do some research about some of the liberty arguments that were around every time the law on this was changed.It moved form compulsory wearing seatbelts in the front of the car, then to passengers in the rear, then to children in child seats.Every time there was this- its a liberty issue rissue, people will lose jobs and so on.

I'm asking at what point you would say a measure or restriction was disproportionate and speak out against it? At the moment we may have certificates required for entry to nightclubs. Would banning entry to all indoor establishments for the unvaccinated be too far for example? If not where is your redline?

I ask because I get a sense from some that they say things like 'oh it's only nightclubs no big deal' but then when the next imposition comes around it'll be 'oh it's only X no big deal' and repeat. I certainly have no personal stake in nightclubs specifically, but I still don't like this idea or where it could logically lead if it goes ahead.

Probably due to BREXIT. Everything else I’d.

Where could it logically lead? Personally my only real concern about "vaccine passports" is ensuring that all groups have been given the opportunity to get vaccinated first to ensure that those who are last in the queue due to being young and fit arent disadvantaged.

Can you attempt to state any subtle differences between seatbelts and medical injectables or is that beyond you and you genuinely can't detect any difference? 

Are you suggesting there is no logical next step and it stops at nightclubs and large gatherings until cases drop and then back to normal? That would be comforting. However I've not heard that yet from anyone here, and no-one is willing to confirm a point at which they'd be uncomfortable with the level of restrictions being placed on people. 

No I am asking you what you think the next logical step is. So what is it?

Pubs and restaurants. Are you able to presume following steps or do you want me to spell it out?

Any hint of committal to a point we'd reach that you would speak out against?

I think its you who struggles not me that  its the same old argument..quite repettive and nothing groundbreaking in respect of public health v individual liberty.Sikhs had an exemption on motor cycle helmets at first as it infringed their religious  liberty on turbans.Its the same thing, just happens to be that vaccines are the proven medical solution this time for a public health crises.

Fortunately we have vaccines, would have been better with a pill, but you cannot have everything.Do not tell me you are anti pill as it infringes your liberty.

So you can't state any differences between medical injectables and seatbelts, noted.

Yes I'd also be against be against being mandated or coerced into taking medications, but as it's all seatbelts to you we need go no further.

We are currently in something of an emergency situation - lest you hadn't noticed - and one that has killed around 150,000 people, hospitalised four times that number, seen hospitals overloaded to the point other non-Covid life saving procedures are at risk and less urgent but highly important to QOL procedures are increasingly delayed.  Staff burn out seems to be approaching an existential crisis for universal healthcare, and it's all been really shit for most of us for a long time. 

I have no problem with proportionate control measures for the emergency situation.  

If the vaccine passport requirement remains on venues once the threat of healthcare overload has been eliminated and we have figured out how to operate with this virus in endemic circulation, then I will take umbrage and support those seeking its removal.

But right now I see the same new, agenda driven posters arguing against whatever control measures are on the cards right now in the middle of said emergency situation.

For the record, right now I would close nightclubs and vertical drinking in pubs for  another two weeks at least, more pending how the data develops, and I would support vaccine passports for indoor dining now.  I would want a clearly defined roadmap and data driven criteria by which these would be re-evaluated and either escalated to closures or dropped as the situation progresses.

We have no choice but to learn to live with the virus.  At every juncture where there's been a choice between caution, data driven responses and charging full steam ahead regardless, we've taken the later approach and as a result way more people have died and - this is the clincher for me given your apparent belief in the ultimate importance of personal liberty - our net total personal liberty has been reduced more because of the horrors created by being incautious in the face of a global pandemic.

More haste, less speed.

I would almost start to think that what some advocates in this crisis are working to achieve is actually furthering the staff burnout crisis in healthcare, burn it down in an endless war of attrition to replace it with something more profitable.

In Italy you aren't getting into bars, restaurants, concerts, sports events etc without a EU vaccination pass. Their incidence is 39.8.

I can quite comfortably see that my life and yours has been improved over the last couple of hundred years by improvements in public health which embrace a whole range of issues ranging from basic water sanitation ( cholera) and so on.

That you cannot open your eyes just a wee bit and see the link I find absurd.

Next you will be trying to convince yourself that drinking treated water is corecion on a massive scale as its mandated that they make it safe and it goes in your body.

Replacing low paid EU migrants working in the UK because it's good money compared to home with ones from Africa whose home wages are even lower and thus will put up with bad conditions for even longer is all part of the government game plan.

It might appear that way, but they actually removed various rights for asylum seekers to work a while back (thinking about it, this may have been just before those countries were ‘allowed’ to come and work.....it’s always fair to assume there’s some dodgey motive behind their thinking). 

Kudos for stating some form of boundary, that's more than most are likely to do. Still a bit vague and open to interpretation. Would be good to agree on what endemic levels not threatening healthcare overload would actually look like to save the rage from both extremes as we approach that point.

I would begrudgingly compromise and close nightclubs and disallow 'vertical drinking' but not touch indoor dining. If we'd have been given the choice between keeping domestic passports off the table and remaining closed for additional weeks I may well have chosen the latter. Such a choice was never posed though.

What if instead of "vaccine passports" for the immunised, we gave out an allocation of a "covid spreading license" that you could apply for if you're pro-illness? Would you be happier with that?

An extremely loaded way of saying a non-medical exemption?

Dont be ridiculous; I doubt anyone here wants to keep restrictions and measures beyond necessity. When we finally get to a point where covid is either eliminated or endemic at a level similar to other infectious conditions, and is no longer causing disruption of healthcare, I'm sure everyone would want those measures to be removed; they would be pointless and unnecessary cost.

We weren't given the choice on any aspects of dealing with this pandemic; they were all imposed on us by government. Many of us would have made very different choices, probably with much better outcomes. Most of those choices would have been to take action/impose measures earlier.

Actually, many of us did make different choices; we (or our companies) locked down earlier, have maintained social distancing beyond that mandated, and are still WFH, despite 'Freedom Day'.

Music to my ears. Elimination is probably off the cards though no?

I've always agreed the border control failure early on was a massive and unforgivable error. It should have been closed early and with stricter controls.

Making decisions contrary to our wise government? Shocking. I could never support such a concept.

So on the border controls, you are ok with a vaccine passport?

Surely, that would have been the 'slippery slope' to the totalitarianism you seem to fear?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/is_it_just_me_or-737152

"I understand that risk has to be balanced with many other factors and on a local scale it seems that things are settling, meanwhile it's been great to explore local esoterica over the past year. Yet I wonder if I will ever be able to leave the mainland UK again."

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/is_it_just_me_or_pt2-737259

How do you know what goes into square sausage ... I thought nobody knew that.

Are you merely speculating?

Also, It is shaped like a slice of loaf. Square.

More so than domestic passports, but still averse. At least there is some precedent for them. I do have to accept that other countries could introduce passes for entry, though I'd rather they didn't. The fact the virus is basically ubiquitous and vaccines don't stop transmission makes them somewhat redundant, as opposed to infectious diseases that are unique to certain parts of the world where you either want to prevent those viruses jumping to other countries or infecting visitors to said country.

No, actual testing and/or preventing entry at the border; including quality quarantine protocols early or even totally preventing travel from high risk countries (China, Italy, India at various different stages) made sense when the virus wasn't present in many places (as far as we knew) and prior to understanding the virus (or new variant) and having access to protections. What was the potential concern in those cases? That we'd permanently be unable to travel to Italy or allow any Italian nationals within our boarders?

This is quite different to trying to introducing unprecedented measures at this late stage; that do have ethical, moral and privacy concerns surrounding them (whether you are willing to admit that or not) and have more potential for becoming misused and abused in future. Creating a restricted underclass, forcing people out of work, limiting free movement of your own citizens within their own borders etc. All this with a majority of adults vaccinated. 

Would you both expect domestic vaccine passports to only apply to large venues and nightclubs in the short term until cases stabilise or are you quite happy for such measures to exist in perpetuity, and in a larger variety of settings? 

There’s something pretty twisted about taking one of the weakest and most ineffectual responses from a western government against covid, that has caused untold horror and cost, and that the government are dropping as fast as they possibly can, and misrepresenting it as the creeping edge of totalitarianism.

Still, it does a good job of deflecting conversation away from the clusterf**k of a Brexit, the clusterf*ck of the weak covid response with massive unvetted spending in to private hands, and the actual threats to our liberty emerging from other parts of the current government’s ongoing changes and from the realities of climate change coming down the line - climate change where a lot of denialism has been used from the same playbook and organisations as tied up with covid denialism.

To use a phrase you’re keen on when someone refused to answer your barking and inane questions: “Noted”.

You accuse me of deflecting from a bunch of unrelated topics in a post deflecting/ignoring entirely the points made above, plus you've thrown in some insults. You're the one barking wintertree.

If you wish to discuss Brexit more (most seem sick of it) no-one, least of all me, is stopping you. Nor am I anymore in favour of this current government than you are, albeit for different reasons.

I was talking about barking questions - the way you reduce the argument to a question so abstract as to be pointless, repeated demanding the other poster answers it, and then say "noted" when they don't.

I've answered them before.  You're clearly keen on repeating them ad-nauseam in the hopes someone will read them and skew their thinking to the point they resist some of the mildest covid control measures out of various comparator nations whilst simultaneously ignoring the more credible threats to their longer term freedom - such as being unable to safety move on from a global health crisis because of resistance to control measures, and wider and actually credible assaults on our freedom from the government.

I'm afraid you've redlined my credibility meter and I just don't think you're here in good faith, at all.

Pointless in your view. Since I'm worried about the "creeping edge of totalitarianism", determining where peoples limit to restrictions is is quite important IMO. I'm asking questions not barking them, however it's obvious you are barking insults and attempting to belittle others that hold differing views. 

I know you have, and I thanked you for that. Note that my response was to two other posters not directly aimed at you. If I'm asked a question I'll respond, if you have a differing view you are quite welcome to give it. The news is already mentioning potential 'no jab no education' policies in universities so there's evidence of creep only days after the initial announcement, so I don't feel unjustified in my concerns. 

You're entitled to your opinion. Apologies for the broken credibility and good faith meters, perhaps invest in better equipment.

No it's not the "pingdemic", it's brexit

I think if you were genuinely motivated by the threat of totalitarianism, you would be discussing other changes the government wish to make.  

However, shock horror, you are piling on the anti-side of Covid control measures, something you've been quite consistent in for the last year.  The current topic of the week across several new and new-ish posters who have consistently been against control measures  is to link creeping totalitarianism to Covid control measures.  Coincidence?

Oh, I think they're working just fine thank you very much.

I'm not belittling you for having another view, I'm accusing you of being here in bad faith.  I have been quite clear, so there's no need to misrepresent that.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/07/24/french-restaurants-are-open-but...

Interesting

The limit to restrictions is quite clear unless the government change the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984.

The authorities can do almost anything including compulsory isolation, preventing travel, preventing one from working, compulsory wearing protective equipment and effectively anything they like as long as a JP agrees.

The only restriction is on forcible treatment and vaccination.

Such as? Are any you are going to mention more severe than domestic passports, closing businesses and locking people down?

My feeling is you're transitioning from genuinely spotting obvious alt accounts to accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being an alt. What could one even do to refute such claim? Stick to the topic and points made therein rather than hashing this pattern out ad-nauseum. It detracts from your otherwise fair points.

I used to work at a Pork Pie and Sausage factory.

I DO know what goes into them.

I nowadays buy all my pies and sausages from a small butcher who makes his own.

I get what powers and limits (or lack thereof) the government authorities have, that's what worries me. I'm more interested in individuals personal limits and sensibilities and what point they would have to reach before speaking up.

If the consensus is 'definitely temporary passports for large venues only for a short time' I can be less concerned than 'write off all unvaccinated people and banish them from society' which I think is terribly disproportionate and damaging to us in myriad other aspects.

If you look at the recent “Is it just me” threads, it’s clear your feeling goes against the evidence.

That’s like feeding a mogwai after midnight.  It is only worthwhile if everyone is here in good faith.

People who can't be vaccinated get an exemption, people who don't want to be vaccinated banished. 

Whether it's in good faith or not, I'd say yeah. To some extent I am worried about the threat of totalitarianism, but that's based on things like restrictions on the right to protest, ramping up of ethno-nationalist rhetoric and the language of "treachery" being used to describe opposition, close cooperation between the party of government and a large part of the press, voter suppression and gerrymandering and so forth.

In almost every country that I can think of, the people who are driving those sorts of things are the ones who are either opposed to or supporting only a bare minimum of restrictions to individual freedom in the name of public health during the pandemic. So yeah, I struggle to see how making everyone wear masks for ever or use a vaccine passport to go to the pub is going to be a particularly key part of Johnson or Trump's evil plans, even if I could see how it would help them in any way.

Meat processing places being ideal covid breeding grounds. Not “food”. Covid clusters related to food production are nearly entirely meat and dairy (because of the cool temperatures  apparently). 

Exactly.  Nail on the head.  

Current Home Office proposals include the virtual equating of whistle-blowing and journalism with espionage - for example, a journalist reporting an NHS whistle-blower uncovering evidence of systematic failings in a hospital would be forced to reveal their source and both the journalist and whistle-blower subject to criminal sanctions. Also from the Home Office is the current bill to restrict the right to protest. 

We also have a current Government utterly uninterested in accountability or in accepting the consequences of its actions. 

If you are worried about creeping totalitarianism, you are looking in the wrong places. Of course, it may well be that the HO is using Covid as a distraction from the real threats to our democracy and our freedoms. 

It's quite easy for an app to say if you are vaccinated, medically exempt or deliberately not vaccinated. A venue or service provider can them decide if they want your custom. If they don't allow vax dodgers in, it'll be much safer to let in the few medically exempt. 

I'm 100% with you on all those points, and Ramblin Dave picked up on a point regarding government and corporate press collusion which I've raised multiple times (plus social media censorship which I think is a part of this). I don't think much of this is party exclusive though, which is probably the only place I differ from the perceived majority on here and why I'm rendered politically homeless for the foreseeable. 

That's why I've previously mentioned the need for a more up-to-date direct democracy approach or to massively lessen government powers because I think the time is fast approaching where there is no ability to converse across political lines and each side thinks they're right and the others are shills, Russian agents, communists, fascist, CCP shills bots, hackers, conspiracy theorists etc etc. We don't want either side getting too much power in times like this with such heightened emotion, ideological inflexibility and demagoguery, plus increasing power to silence dissent and manipulate information streams.

The proposals are very much party exclusive, since they are solely the intent of the party in Government. This party is hellbent on increasing the powers of Government to the exclusion of democracy. 

Blathering on about Covid-related restrictions is to miss the point, quite spectacularly. 

I’m sorry for voicing my concerns and casting aspersions, I apologise.  This position statement dispels any concerns I had that you were far to clearly aligned to the play book used by those working for US backed libertarian small statists.  

What was I thinking?
 

A true Libertarian amongst us. I assume businesses and individuals can refuse service for other, potentially discriminatory or medical reasons, if they wish?

Either them or one of those pesky modernising direct democracists!

I'd be happy to shill for the leave me the hell alone, mind your business and get off my lawn party if one existed.

Apology accepted though.

Curious, do you politically align with anyone ever or do you float crossed legged in orbit pondering at a level beyond that of ordinary mortals? I've risen to such enlightenment briefly before myself, but couldn't sustain it. Any pointers?

Why not? I bet a venue could do better business wise if they advertised as having better covid protection? 

It's not discrimination, the person declining the vaccine has a choice, as much as a service provider has a choice. 

Covid kills, there's no debate on that. If a business knowingly allows unvaccinated people in, unmasked, are they liable? 

I'm with you in principle, but I assume you want to only allow discrimination for this one thing only rather than actually give businesses real choice or autonomy.

Covid kills, some, sometimes, yes. No debate. I can't claim to know if they are liable as it stands but that would be a reasonable discussion. Transmission can still occur between vaccinated to medically exempt, if they weren't wearing a mask can the business be liable there? Everyone's agreed masks are trivial in terms of nuisance so we'll have to keep them on forever to be safe. Agreed?

You'd also have to prove infection occurred in a given business which might be tricky. Has anyone sued a business since 'freedom day' where masks are no longer legally required? 

I've been refused entry to a bar because I was wearing the wrong shoes, I don't see you ranting on about your human rights to wear sandals being violated

I was refused entry to a bar once for not taking off my wooly hat, quite happy to not give business to an establishment with petty rules. 

The question is whether you have the right to know peoples medical status and then judge them accordingly. I'm less certain perhaps than others.

It's more whether you have the right to know peoples attitude to maintaining public health and judge them accordingly.

You do, by the way. See: smoking.

So we should be able to refuse service to smokers, drinkers, meat eaters, people who don't correctly recycle, litterers, people who drive non-eco cars, politically disfavourables, those who haven't donated to charity recently, criminals who have served their time in prison etc? Many of these effect our day to day public and societal health. Perhaps we could get all this private info in one handy dandy database so we can easily see who to ex-communicate?

Also why not include other communicable diseases? (Flu, STDs, AIDs, hell even foot fungus, verucas, conjuctivits, chickenpox) All would be relevant to public health.

Lets do it!

With the exception of the Flu, I can't see that ANY of the above affect other people directly just by virtue of being in the same room - i.e. for STD's or AID's you would have to partake in unprotected sex with anyone you meet, not likely in any setting I know of - or do you get involved in sex parties ??

Any business already has a right to choose its clients. It can't however discriminate against by age, sex, colour, disability etc.. 

It's quite hard to drink through a mask. So the best a pub can do is ban non vaccinated people? 

Yeah, if only we had some agreed list....
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

It's pretty simple, this one. Broadly:

things that are a personal choice: allowed to refuse service
characteristics that are not up to the individual: not allowed to discriminate

Really not sure why you're still struggling with this. The reason the smoking ban is a thing is to protect employees (it's banned in workplaces remember, that's the wording). Same thing here - why would it be ok to put bar staff at risk because you think it's your human right to be an infectious virus-spreading bellend?

They wouldn't know why, only that they were medically exempt. Sometimes having a more open, no secrets society, makes it safer for everyone than having everything hidden. There is no place to hide, if everything's public. 

Untrue, all of those can be caught outside of sex. Herpes for example, infected blood etc.

There's no logical reason not to have these included.

Except you are still infectious when vaccinated. 

But much less so. 

In reply to Rawn1962:

Park life.

What grade is 3ps?

I think you might have somehow managed to misunderstand everything about everything.

Is that quantifiable in any way?

How could you measure it precisely, but if you have milder symptoms, recover faster, it's a logical presumption you are spreading it less for less time. 

As long as we have established we are implementing this for an unquantifiable benefit. Let's hope it's worth it.

Yes. Studies from PHE and out of Israel. More coming all the time. I'm going to let you Google it for yourself as a test. If you were rom you'd demand I present it to you on a silver plate before you'd be prepared to inform yourself.

Or just keep believing your made-up bollocks. You're on your own here.

You've somewhat spoilt your own test by giving away the conditions of passing/failing. I asked if it was quantifiable, summo seems to think it's unmeasurable, you should have words.

What have I made up exactly? We're talking hypothetical consequences of future political and legal actions, all related to what others have posted in response to me.

No-ones forcing you to reply.

summo's wrong about this. At least two groups have measured it.
And you have still managed to fail the test.

Maybe you should form a collective.

So there is a benefit. At least you acknowledge that.  

I think it already has been...a double vaccinated person is something like 80% less likely to either catch or spread covid 19 (corrections if my % is out are welcome). The only thing that is still unknown is the decay in that efficacy over time (ie how often we are likely to need boosters.

God, you're boring

Of course, you won't find anywhere I have said there is no benefit to be had. It's a question of proportionality and the cost of the benefit gained.

If it means you definitely won't ever be in any pub I visit I'm calling it a win.

In reply to Rawn1962:

Hi Rom!

In reply to Rawn1962:

It was early 2021. Can't offer anything more recent than that but suspect you won't have to wait long. Not the point anyway. Question was "is that quantifiable?". Answer is "yes".

That story links to its own rebuttal, right there in the text.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-study-claims-major-drop-in-vaccine-pr...
And that aside, Israel didn't use the same dosing interval strategy as the UK, which has been shown to be more effective (be interesting to take those figures back in time to when you were Alyson30).
And another thing, you're quoting a (debunked) effectiveness figure against infection, which is a complete change of subject from effectiveness against onward transmission.
And another thing, when you do get a figure for onward transmission, you need to multply that by effectiveness against catching it to get to the chance of passing it on. So quoting your cherry-picked and misleading 16% number is right in line with your normal MO; misleading.

He's getting them all answered, with verifiable information, and then carrying on to cycle round them again.

Say, do you remember the time a Rom like poster endlessly went on about how vaccines weren’t proven to reduce transmission (going against actual expert opinion and first order thinking), and then their account was gone by the time reality proved them conclusively wrong?

Say, do you remember the time a Rom like poster endlessly went on about how bad the UK’s decision was to move to a 12-week gap between doses was. (Going against expert opinion and first order thinking on how desperate our situation was), and then their account was gone by the time reality proved them conclusively wrong?

Now, here we are again with a Rom-like poster casting aspersions without I suspect consulting any immunologists.  Funny thing is, I know a couple of immunologists and I’ve not been concerned about any of the things the Rom-like posters have been - partly because we’re doing the best we can over vaccination, and we just have to find out where it takes us, and partly because of what the actual experts I’ve spoken with have to say.

It’s almost as if this Rom-like poster is following a pattern.

Well yeah, this is the game. He/She/It stands there stomping like a toddler saying "But tHerE IsN'T aNy ProOF" in the face of mounting stacks of evidence.

Yep. The unforgettable "iT's a GaMBle" threads? They're what I was referring to with my time travel comment above.

Just don't get worked up about it. Kick back and have some fun. Used to be he/she/it knew how to push our buttons. It's been a while since the tables have turned.

One of their retorts to me is an accusation of absolute certainty in my opinion.  I need to work up a little sketch explaining Gaussian statistics and showing how far some views land the norm.  It’s not absolute certainty, it’s 6-sigma….

In reply to Rawn1962:

Cut me a break, it’s hard to tell what you have or haven’t claimed - as you full well know - because you change your accounts more often than I change my socks, because your posting style is dishonest and deceitful.

Unless you are willing to post a list of all the account names from which you have posted, you’re just making noise when you insist you’ve never claimed something.

Nobody but you knows what you’ve said because you’re engagement with these forums and the many kind, good and honest people here is deceitful.

In reply to Rawn1962:

Golly Rom, I wish I was as clever as you, I really do.  You bested me *and* completely avoided the issue of your deceitful posting style.  

Or, perhaps I should have been clearer - the Rom-like persona accounts you post from are clearly identifiable by the dunderheaded approach to misleading people with highly repetitive, selective technical truths.

But I have growing suspicions you run another persona across other banned accounts, that is an active Covid denier.

I don’t think you’re going to find many posters who think I’m the childish one here.  

If you truly can cede the last word, perhaps I am wrong about you being Rom after all.

Come back in five years*. Then countries can look back and say they did too much, too little etc... when you factor in death rates, more long covid research, variants, increased non covid deaths from treatable illnesses. There is no right solution other than nz style very early shutdown. In Europe it's just a debate about which of the various methods is less bad. 

* 5 years, well within the life time of an average ukc sleeper account. 

In reply to Rawn1962:

Rom, you always have the last word. 

In reply to Rawn1962:

You do a science. Like the ones I pointed you to. That weren't good enough for you because blah blah agenda.

In reply to Rawn1962:

I knew you couldn't leave it without one more bite Rom! 

In reply to Rawn1962:

Yes, that caution was clear last week when you were advocating for freer international travel (because it suited you); somehow there this issue of unknown unknowns and so on didn’t apply.  You showed certainty that you were right, that nobody else could know better and so on.

Whoops, forgot to change your account before changing your tune!  Next you’ll be slipping up and posting from your like/dislike sock puppet again on the same thread…

I have charitably left them with another opportunity to leave me with the last word.  Selfless, me.

In reply to Rawn1962:

That's how you quantify things; you get the data. You make measurements. This is a parameter that absolutely can be measured. It has been quantified. Your response was to say those measurements are out of date or don't pertain to the delta variant. Sure, you can argue that. But it's been demonstrated that it has been quantified, and therefore is quantifiable.
Now is when you would normally claim you were arguing a different point.

In reply to Rawn1962:

Yes, he's just about as polite as a sea lion can be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
http://wondermark.com/1k62/

In reply to Rawn1962:

You sure? It must be hard keeping track with multiple log ins. 

In reply to Rawn1962:

Doesn't at all mean that thing is not quantifiable. The amount of rain that falls tomorrow is quantifiable. That hasn't happened yet.
Just like vaccine effectiveness against secondary infection is, absolutely, quantifiable.

Not seeing any contradiction in what I said.
You're trying to pretend you meant "known" when we were talking about "quantifiable".
>> Now is when you would normally claim you were arguing a different point.
Called it.

In reply to Rawn1962:

I mean, that was exactly and entirely the point you kicked this off over. So, not really.
Let's recap:

Me:

In reply to Rawn1962:

Indeed.

There’s clearly trouble in the offing when you hear politicians and supermarket CEOs saying there’s no need to panic buy.

The problem is even if they are telling the truth there is a significant risk people wont believe them and panic buy with the media doing their best to encourage them by posting some careful photos of empty shelves.

You learn something new every day. Certainly a cheap and easy way to discount anything that isn't covered by your own pre-conceived narrative. My attempt to hold people to an account when discussing a situation with moving goalposts and potential for slippery slopes is quite justified IMO. 

Bit of a triple bind set up really isn't it. If I take to insults like others have that's wrong, if I'm polite I'm a sea lion, if you don't like what I have to say I'm an alt.

Indeed.c.f. the 'debate' over water fluoridation and cancer

In short, wait until the damage is done then moan about it when it's too late? Is that really your suggestion? The same government that entirely failed on securing the border early (which is one of the few things most posters agreed on at the time) are now going to be trusted with implementing an unprecedented and in my opinion damaging passport/exclusion scheme? The same government people are accusing of being discriminatory and authoritarian by limiting whistle blowers and protest? 

Doesn't make sense. 

No. That's why it better to vaccinate rather than let covid rip through. 

 'All this with a majority of adults vaccinated'

Whether a majority of the population is vaccinated or not is irrelevant; what is relevant is whether a sufficient proportion of the population is vaccinated. The higher the transmissibility of the virus the greater the proportion of the population which needs to be vaccinated before control measures can be reduced. 

The above point of course assumes that we reach that sufficient level of vaccination ahead of any new vaccine-resistant variant. The likelihood of this being achieved has just received a substantial knock due to the unwise relaxing of measures before a sufficient proportion of the population has been vaccinated. 

There are two ways to deal with the pandemic:

1) restrictions on social contact, pubs, clubs, bars unavailable

2) vaccination

At first, 2 wasn't an option. Now it is. If you'd prefer 1, then you stick with 1, and take all the consequences of 1. If you'd prefer 2, go for 2 and get the benefits of 2. 

So how often have you gone into a pub and suddenly found the person next to you giving you a blood transfusion you never asked for ?????

In reply to Rawn1962:

The argument against vaccine passports is the potential for abuse, our inability to rid ourselves of them once we have them, their divisive nature and use as a coercive tool.

The fact that people antithetical to this government, aware of it's policies, intentions and track record to date are able to support this and see no downsides or consequences beyond reducing case numbers is just inexplicable to me.

true although research does suggest that it lowers transmission (New Scientist) https://www.newscientist.com/article/2274202-how-good-are-the-coronavirus-v...

So who are you willing to let die then?

This depends entirely on hospitalisation rates once they go down and stay down restrictions will lift as they did after world war two when we had far more restriction than we do now, for example my wife's mother had to report to the police every week to give an account of her movements purely because she was a foreign national living in the UK. Once the threat level reaches a point where is is uncommon then we shall drift back to normality. It might take a while and travel to certain countries may be restricted for a long time yet but I see as a temporary thing.

There are plenty of other more effective  "coercive" tools available irrespective of the vaccine passport.

So what's your point?

You are fighting the wrong politcial cause.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/food_shortages-737167?v=1#x9494...

When you stop to think about it, it’s unlikely someone who can use a computer and tie their own shoe laces is so slow as to be genuinely confused about the difference between a virus transmitted by intimately bumping uglies and a virus transmitted by being a couple of meters away from a symptom free carrier and sharing the air with them.

So, assuming of course they can tie their own shoe laces, it rather suggests they’re deliberately presenting a bad faith argument.

Oh I know that - TomD89 is just one forum name among many who seem to put forward the most ridiculous arguments. I say name because we're all unsure just how many separate aliases some of these plonkers have.

But I do like to underline their stupidity.

Pity we don't have more intelligent people like you on this forum, providing reliable information and comment - keep up the good work.

I can think of a couple of pubs admittedly that I avoided going into that had a reputation for customers being rather keen on improvised surgery.

All the examples I gave can be caught outside of sexual or medical settings. It's certainly not as likely as covid, but if the desire is to stop disease transmission at all costs, why not include other infectious diseases in the pass? Use the flu example instead, that's more pertinent for this winter. If you say that would be disproportionate, then we are in the discussion about proportionality of response which is exactly what I'm questioning.

In a world where health passes are normalised, what exactly would be stopping the general adoption or eventually mandatory requirement to check potential partners status for transmissible disease? You could certainly make an argument for public health benefit there, others peoples health is your responsibility no?

Generally when you move on to insults, ad hominem and accusatory attacks that isn't traditionally a sign of either having good arguments or acting in good faith.

But its not to 'stop disease transmission at all costs' which you well know, as its been explained to you many times by many people that it is about proportionality.

You will now ask me to explicitly set a level for that proportionality and we'll go right round again, seemingly forever.

*Slams head into wall*

Fine, I'm getting the consensus is that these measures will be truly temporary and absolutely will not progress any further than the areas proposed for covid only. Consider me convinced.

Hopefully cases will continue to drop and the proposition will be defeated in parliament anyway.

One word AIDS.

Back in the 90's condoms were de-rigur and even AIDS tests muted but now all that has gone by the board.

The problem with mandatory checks outside of a pandemic is cost and administration. Businesses don't want to pay for it indefinitely, people don't want to pay for it indefinitely, the government certainly doesn't want to pay for it indefinitely. I see health passes as a temporary sop to the idea that the government is doing something while desperately trying to open everywhere up.

Do you think the Australian government is an authoritarian dictatorship? You can't start school there without proof of childhood vaccinations. Yep, dangerous slippery slope, mandatory vaccination!! Aussies are so put upon and live such an awful existence! (Although, they aren't managing the Covid vaccine roll out well at all, my brother was desperate for it and took ages to get it. They still have a very low rate)

We're now at 4 billion doses administered with minimal adverse reactions at a level consistent with virtually any other medication you care to wave a stick at. The "it's experimental/dangerous!" argument is increasingly fatuous so what are you left with? "My fear of needles trumps your efforts to control a Global pandemic that's killed and maimed millions"?

Plenty of jobs had a redline on vaccination way before covid. Personally I'd go beyond employment and insist on MMR for access to publicly funded education. Before anti-vax gained traction on social media we were close to eradicating measles in the West, no longer, and hundreds of thousands of children are now unnecessarily dead or maimed due to misinformation and ignorance. Give yourself a big pat on the back for your support.

No, that's just more hyperbole and hysteria (at least you're entirely consistent in your posting style). People seem to want everyone to follow best evidence, common sense and medical advice and just get a quick jab so we can all get back to normal as quickly as possible.

A fair a logical counterpoint. Businesses stand to lose custom from people who don't agree with the pass or aren't vaccinated, as well as the cost in time, staff, and electronics needed to scan and verify the passes.

Previous posters have stated that allowing unvaccinated to mix with vaccinated is tantamount to criminal endangerment (post everyone being offered a jab), so I can't quite mesh these two streams of thought into a coherent vision of the near future. I could see requirements fizzling out over time as the situation improves, but not if that style of thinking is the majority view (see stitchplate and girlymonkey's replies to demonstrate, this does not seem to reflect medical pass measures fizzling out but rather them expanding in scope and here to stay).

In reply to Rawn1962:

Oh Rom, back to the ad Homs?

Thats some long words there.  

I have twisted nothing and misrepresented nothing.

TomD89 literally said he saw no reason not to include herpes etc in the same restrictions against entry as Covid.

Its there in black and white in the thread.

I spelt out the differences between the viruses and why it was perhaps not sensible to lump them all together.

I can always tell when you’ve run out of honest debate because you fall back to accusing me of misrepresenting and lashing out.  I have done no either in the post.  You misrepresent and twist my post.  Again.

Edit:  should have caught up with the thread first.  TomD89 again argues in his reply to me and fred99 this morning that those diseases should be included in the pass as well.

Rather than falsely accuse me of misrepresentation when I actually explained the differences, why don’t you say if you agree or disagree with the proposition?

But no, cheap personal attack against the content of the actual posts with no basis in fact.

Because our dishonest and deceitful poster who hides behind an ever changing array of pop up accounts only has…. Dishonesty and deceit at their disposal in the face of the truth.  

Well here's the list of the notifiable diseases in the UK, whereupon the sufferer (or suspected) is subject to the conditions of the Public Health Act.

Acute encephalitis

Acute infectious hepatitis

Acute meningitis

Acute poliomyelitis

Anthrax

Botulism

Brucellosis

Cholera

COVID-19

Diphtheria

Enteric fever (typhoid or paratyphoid fever)

Food poisoning

Haemolytic uraemic syndrome (HUS)

Infectious bloody diarrhoea

Invasive group A streptococcal disease

Legionnaires’ disease

Leprosy

Malaria

Measles

Meningococcal septicaemia

Mumps

Plague

Rabies

Rubella

Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS)

Scarlet fever

Smallpox

Tetanus

Tuberculosis

Typhus

Viral haemorrhagic fever (VHF)

Whooping cough

Yellow fever

So currently the health authorities keep a list of all affected people, any fears of potential data abuse and restrictions of personal liberty were sorted decades ago. (HIV used to be on the list, syphilis was made imprisonable mid-1800's).

I totally understand and that is completely logical and acceptable. Where it becomes questionable to me is when we go from wanting people to follow advice to mandating, compelling and coercing people to follow advice which we are certainly inching closer to. Even if the consequences aren't felt in this crisis, a situation could well arise in future where compelling medical interventions could be incredibly foolhardy, as well as the wider implications for individual autonomy and our society at large.

You can't deny barring people from aspects of life in order to compel vaccination is authoritarian. You can justify that as necessary if you wish, but not the nature of the action itself.

So therein you have to be a sufferer or suspected of having it. You do not have to carry a pass at all times to allow access to areas of life. You could in theory be quarantined until such time as you can be shown not to have said disease and then go about your business.

This is not the same as having a vaccine pass that bars you from aspects of life whether you have a given disease or not.

I'm trying to generate an actual discussion so we can assess if the logic used in these arguments is sound and how ethical it really is. How could I argue to include the disease in a pass while simultaneously being against the pass? It's a hypothetical. How can you not understand that?

Yes, I understand it's role as a hypothetical.  But you were arguing they other diseases should be included with equivalence in your hypothetical version to show how unfair it is, but the problem with this is that it deliberately overlooks the blindingly obvious differences between the different diseases and their current immune status in the world populations.

Don't worry thought, when I point out the differences that break your hypothetical, Raws is here to bizarrely accuse me of misrepresentation.  

To repeat - I am giving concrete reasons why your hypothetical inclusion of another disease is in no way "equivalent" to Covid.

Ho hum.  As they say.