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Fork in road for US Republican Party?

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 MargieB 11 Jan 2021

Isn't this the fork in the road for the Republican Party[US} to remain a Republican Party or be a fascist party that doesn't recognise democratic process? Forcing Trump's resignation or supporting him at this stage must now set the Republican Party's future agenda? Does Pence recognise this?

 deepsoup 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

> Isn't this the fork in the road for the Republican Party[US} to remain a Republican Party or be a fascist party that doesn't recognise democratic process?

I would say no.  They already took the wrong turn at that fork in the road quite some time ago.  The question now is whether it's still possible for them to correct that.  Or perhaps more to the point, whether they want to.

> Does Pence recognise this?

Given that he is refusing to invoke the 25th amendment even after Trump literally tried to have him lynched, I'm going take a wild guess and say no.

 jethro kiernan 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

The Republicans have relied on voter suppression as a valid electoral tool for a long time, unfortunately it now means that invalidating the votes of millions of Americans is baked into the Republican party as the only way to win, they have used the loop holes in the constitution that weighs rural votes over urban votes something that has grown out of all proportion to what the founding fathers introduced and is now in itself a form of voter suppression.

Unfortunately I believe that ultimately at the national level US politics will be screwed by the cult of the constitution and patriotism, it won't allow American democracy to evolve and the Republicans will fight tooth and claw to stop any evolution both within the constitution or within the party. The irony is that despite their sneering Republican politics is now all about identity politics and very little about policy.

 jethro kiernan 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

I would also add that the religious fundamentalism that has found its way into the Republican Party means that there probably is no going back to the centre ground (whatever that looks like in American politics)

In reply to MargieB:

I dunno. Above all else, politicians like power. The Capitol shenanigans will have cost that side of the GOP any moderate support. It is not possible to win an election with just the hard core supporters of your party. Hell, Trump lost even though he still did have support from plenty of GOP moderates.

As a result I feel they will, at least for now, play it safe.

 MargieB 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Alkis:

If you could not win an election with the trump hard core supporters alone, surely the Republican Party would want to change direction,  remove the public eye from trump which a long drawn out impeachment would bring { which would severely damage image and distract from building support in the next 4 years} Surely this would be the pressure the party will apply to Trump to force his hand of resignation, or get it  all over and done with quickly and invoke the 25th amendment now and force a quick Trump exit to get the focus of attention away from him and back onto the Republican Party???

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

> Isn't this the fork in the road for the Republican Party[US} to remain a Republican Party or be a fascist party that doesn't recognise democratic process? Forcing Trump's resignation or supporting him at this stage must now set the Republican Party's future agenda? Does Pence recognise this?

Yeah I think they know they have to come back. It's a tough job but the US is center right. The people naturally align with the more conservative politicians and so do many of the recent immigrants.

It'll be interesting to watch. 

In reply to MargieB:

I think Pence is playing it wisely, if they force trump out early, there is more chance of violence and bigger rifts to heal. It's safer in all respects to let the dust settle. Trump only has 9 days left anyway. 

Post edited at 14:56
 MargieB 11 Jan 2021
In reply to summo:

But is it playing safe? If public opinion has vastly moved away from trump because of the extreme severity of the situation, that isn't playing it safe anymore for the Republican Party which would now not want to be synonymous with Trump. I think now it is playing it very unsafe for the republican party  not to divest from trump. Isn't that the question for them now? 

So I think Pence may act in a way we don't expect.

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to summo:

I think they are caught between needing some of his base support but wanting to be more moderate. The Dems have a similar issue with the progressives and moderates - as someone said they unite behind hating Trump at the moment.

We really need more parties in the US but that's not going to happen.

 jonfun21 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

74m people voted for Trump, 81m for Biden

With Trump gone in 10 days then imagine the strategy is they can appear more “normal/moderate” without the weight/ammunition of a “ousted president” in the next cycle and win 3.6m extra votes.

Sadly in modern politics there are very few willing to make decisions/take a stand based on principle which this situation warrants

 redjerry 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Re: more parties. What do you think that that would look like?

In reply to MargieB:

Perhaps the priority first is no more violence and deaths, worry about party politics in 10 days time. 

 MargieB 11 Jan 2021
In reply to jonfun21:

This idea of letting it slide was relevant when trump had legal cases [ which were not upheld} and you just let time go ,as they were heard and dismissed  ,until the inauguration.

This particular situation is analogous to fascism in its incipience {unprincipled violent means of political action}

The analogy is more like Hitler/ appeasement by Chamberlain. This is about the failure of appeasement in the past to uphold democracy when it is deeply undermined. I think appeasement has been proven to fail when democracy is truly challenged.

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

I think both parties could split in two at least but the party that does it first loses all power instantly. It'd change how congress works entirely. 

 jonfun21 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

Totally agree with you.

But I doubt this situation will result in a principle based response from the republicans. 

 redjerry 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Assuming your split is Trump/establishment & progressive/establishment, how do you think the electorate divides up?

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

I don't know, but I think its more extreme/moderate left v extreme/moderate right and force coalitions in the center.

It's hard to know. The US is about voter motivation to go to the polls than pure numbers who align. I've now doubt most Americans align center right but its the extremes which are most vocal and motivated to vote.

 Philip 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

Where are they in the cycle. This happened with the conservative party. They sidelined the nutters into Farages party and then that came back and but them (or maybe the rest of us).

So is Trump the Farage who won (2016) or is this split now the departure of the nutters. I'd say the former. The current Rep party turned a blind eye to the horror of Trump to get control off the presidency. Remember US has separation of executive and legislative that we don't have. They needed a Trump in the executive to get their legislative through.

Is there anything to salvage?

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Philip:

I think GA shocked them more than Trump being voted out. Losing GA was a pretty colossal shock in US politics. They just thought him losing GA was because it was him, and not them. 

People have very short memories though and with only two parties they'll bounce back pretty fast. I can't see Biden running in 2024 and I'm not sure America will vote in a black woman from CA. Interesting times fore sure. For both parties. 

 MargieB 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

5 people are dead. 

That has to have an impact on the Republican Party as regards principles.

Admittedly in the past the party seemed to select a candidate like trump because it was all about winning.

But 5 people are dead. That, surely, cannot be ignored without a direct challenge to reassert a principle. Pence hasn't ruled out using the 25th amendment. An exclusively  republican move.

 redjerry 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

extreme left? Is there anyone... anyone at all... in the american political spectrum who would fit the description of " extreme left"?

The big question I think is whether there is enough common ground between centrist republicans and centrist democrats for that to be a viable coalition.
 

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

It's all relative. In the US the Squad are considered the extreme left (radical left), terms you hear again and again. And yes, they are very different from the democrats who win in more conservative areas like Doug Collins or Lamb.

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

> 5 people are dead. 

> That has to have an impact on the Republican Party as regards principles.

> Admittedly in the past the party seemed to select a candidate like trump because it was all about winning.

> But 5 people are dead. That, surely, cannot be ignored without a direct challenge to reassert a principle. Pence hasn't ruled out using the 25th amendment. An exclusively  republican move.

It's certainly having an impact but the far right are already denying people died, or blaming the police. I've seen people call it Kent State 2.0 (you know about the Kent State shooting?).

But there's certainly a split in the party how they are reacting. The more moderate members are calling out those like Gaetz, Cruz etc who clearly played a part.

 redjerry 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Well, sure there's a spectrum of belief so yes it's relative in that sense (bit of  cop out though). But to justify the word extreme: that strikes me as requiring some policies that are historically way out of the norm for American society. Are you really saying that there is a significant portion of the left wing of american politics that would fit the use of the word extreme.
If thats the case, I'd want some examples of "extreme" in terms of policies so I can  know what you're even talking about.

 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

These aren't my terms, yes there's a spectrum. It's semantics what we call them. If that's a cop out fine. You can't say Manchin is politically close to AOC. What you call those wings is up to you. Radical left is the common term, far left, progressives. Etc 

You seem to want to pick a fight.

Universal healthcare, free college, universal wage, defunding the police and the green new deal are the 5 big issues. None are particularly new on themselves but they are used to scare the center/Republicans.

Post edited at 20:36
In reply to MargieB:

Major donors are pulling funding. That should clear GOP heads. As more video footage, details of injuries, another dead policeman (suicide) is coming out the true horror is hitting home. Nobody's doubting that Pelosi and Pence were in real danger. I'll be surprised if Cruz and Hawley survive this. 

Post edited at 21:59
 Roadrunner6 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Even the parent company for many talk radio shows has said quit with the election fraud claims or quit.

 waitout 11 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

Lord I hope it's a fork, because the only real chance to any credibility left is for the GOP to take top-down action and scapegoat the Trumpist ringleaders. Sadly this is in the hands of some of those main ringleaders....but it's about as much as can be realistic right now. The rest will require long term, low profile sidelining that can't maaaaybe be achieved in the next 4 years.

Whether the Democrats can clear the arena for this to take shape and gain bipartisan support is hard to see. I'm pessimistic. The hysteria stirred up already makes things less predictable. We've seen before that large opposition and threats of action can go nowhere, the intentions getting diluted and diverted in all the noise.

I also think a sizeable population are not adverse to the branding of a fascist party, either as a retro-apologetic label or as a label for the perfect enemy.

People died which is not OK, but I'm still waiting to hear what the other 3 were. Does choking on chicken wings whilst running up marble stairs or cardiac arrests from having a 35 BMI squeezed into a plate carrier count?

In reply to waitout:

By the other three, I assume you mean the deaths. The two I'm guessing you know about the woman shot and Capitol Police Officer struck on the head with a fire extinguisher. The other three, one guy had a stroke, another must have had a taser holstered down his pants, because he gave himself a heart attack to tasering his testifies. The fifth was a woman who was crushed and trampled to death by the crowd inside the Capitol.

In reply to The New NickB:

That's 'deep' info you have there fella.......just sayin'

 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

Yes they're the three. Out of interest where are you getting that info from? The stuff I'm seeing is all pretty hazy as the families aren't commenting, reports making out they are strokes and possibly substance related.

 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> That's 'deep' info you have there fella.......just sayin'

Hey, getting tased to the nuts would be interesting. It's not easy to really self-tase, they have safety's built in to minimize that, so if it's what happened it would make for a cool story.

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

In Roseanne Boyland's case she had a friend with her who has given an eyewitness account about her being crushed in the crowd inside the rotunda.

Mrs Greeson has spoken to Snopes to debunk the taser story.  She says he was on the phone to her at the time while he actually died of a heart attack, there was no taser and he was outside the building.  I'm about 75% "Ah well, it was fun while it lasted." and 25% "Well she would say that wouldn't she?" with that one.  I guess corroborating evidence will eventually become public as investigations and recriminations rumble on.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/capitol-riot-taser-death/

 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Ha yes, if I got tased in the nuts I'd hope my wife told another story too. Either way, stroke from a taser suggests other factors involved, including ignoring them and deciding to punch on with the mob.

Where was the report of the friend of Boyland's account from? Not shit-stirring, genuinely interested.

Yes no doubt investigation will bring it out. Whether it's still newsworthy then, or passed into folklore is another matter.

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

https://fox59.com/news/heres-what-we-know-about-the-5-people-who-died-during-the-capitol-riot/

Thats the main news what's come out.

There's a few stories about the taser but I'm not sure how reliable they are. 

There's been lots of reports that about the trampling too.

https://6abc.com/us-capitol-riot-rosanne-boyland-donald-trump-supporter-family/9497193/

Presumably CCTV is throughout the capitol so it must all come out soon.

 cb294 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

>  I've now doubt most Americans align center right but its the extremes which are most vocal and motivated to vote.

An inevitable consequence of selctig candidates through primaries. Completely different set of topics and rhetoric required relative to governing once you have won.

CB

In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Major donors are pulling funding. 

Money talks. Even if the changes are somewhat superficial no candidate seriously considering a major post can ignore the loss of campaign contributions from big business. Morally bankrupt for sure, but in true American style, the market will decide and provide.

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Don't know about waitout, but I can't see that one.  Unavailable in Europe it says there.

Interesting that the family have a slightly different story to the person who was there with her. 

I couldn't remember where I'd read it when I posted above, it might have been this one:
https://nypost.com/2021/01/08/rosanne-boyland-woman-killed-in-dc-riots-was-trampled-by-crowd/

 MargieB 12 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

After that level of violence, I think Pence would have the support of the majority of Americans if he used the 25th amendment and grasped the reigns of a rudderless government { he did before to bring in the National Guard to protect the constitution} especially as there are warnings that the hard core aren't prepared to stop using violent/armed measures to get their way { 50 Capitols threatened apparently according to FBI investigations.} He is threatened personally but he could get beyond that for the good of the whole.

Couldn't Pence  unify a country working with Biden in the run up to the inauguration?

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

>  { he did before to bring in the National Guard to protect the constitution}

To protect the constitution, or to literally save his own neck?
(That, for me, is this mind-boggling situation in a nutshell: the President of the United States tried to have the Vice President lynched.  Holy shit!)

I find it hard to believe at this point that Pence, or Cruz, Hawley or any number of other republicans in bed with Trump give a flying fig about the Constitution. 

Or the country for that matter, for all that they call themselves 'patriots'.

Plenty of that this side of the pond too.  Outright spivs and grifters urging the rest of us to be patriotic while they themselves care about nothing beyond their own personal ambitions.

 neilh 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

I have always enjoyed listening to " The Mooch" or Anthony Scaramucci for his views as he had a big fallout with Trump. He predicted that one day there would be a big fallout between Trump and the Republicans and that everyone in the Republican party would go scratching their heads and say how we were hoodwinked.This is now happening.

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

Yeah, they've even said Trump admits some responsibility. Big donors are pulling money and that hurts.

 MargieB 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

personally, I don't think trump is capable of empathising  beyond his own ego- no concept of serving others other than himself- classic dictator material. That's the problem beyond all party politics....

In reply to MargieB:

Perhaps the Republican party will wither on the vine and a new similar party will grow in its place?  What other parties are there?

In reply to deepsoup:

> Don't know about waitout, but I can't see that one.  Unavailable in Europe it says there.

That's lazy of therm, it might not be available in the EU but guernsey is in europe and I can get it:-

Kevin Greeson, 55

Greeson was from Athens. Alabama. His family says the 55-year-old had a heart attack. They described him as a supporter of President Trump’s but denied that he condoned violence.

Kristi Greeson, his wife, emailed a statement to WKRG News 5 saying, “he was excited to be there to experience this event — he was not there to participate in violence or rioting, nor did he condone such actions.” She went on to say he had a history of high blood pressure and suffered a heart attack.

Philips, 50, of Schuylkill County, Pa., died of a stroke, according to a report in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

NBC News reports Philips was a computer programmer who founded a website for Trump supporters. According to the report, the website helped coordinate rides for people to head to Washington for Wednesday’s events.

“As my children are grieving and processing yesterday’s shocking events, I respectfully request privacy,” said Nicole Mun, Philip’s ex-wife, in a statement to the Inquirer.

Rosanne Boyland, 34

Boyland also died due to a medical emergency. According to Atlanta news station WXIA, first responders performed CPR on her after she collapsed Wednesday evening.

Ashli Babbitt, 35

Capitol Police on Thursday identified Babbitt, 35, as the woman who was fatally shot by an unidentified officer. Bystander video shows she was trying to climb through the broken window of a barricaded doorway inside the Capitol when the officer fired.

Babbitt, an Air Force veteran who identified as a Libertarian and supporter of the Second Amendment, frequently posted unsubstantiated views about election fraud by the president and his most extreme supporters — activists whose conspiracy theories and unflinching support for Trump have attracted large online followings.

On social media, Babbitt often ranted against the president’s frequent targets — illegal immigration, government mandates to contain the coronavirus and Trump’s critics.  Her Twitter account promoted mainstream conservative views but also included references to the QAnon conspiracy theory, which centers on the baseless belief that Trump has been secretly fighting deep state enemies and a cabal of Satan-worshipping cannibals operating a child sex trafficking ring.

Officer Brian Sicknick, 42

The U.S. Capitol Police said in a statement that Officer Brian D. Sicknick was injured “while physically engaging with protesters” during the Wednesday riot. He was the fifth person to die because of the Capitol protest and violence.

During the struggle at the Capitol, Sicknick, 42, was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher, two law enforcement officials said. The officials could not discuss the ongoing investigation publicly and spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

His family said in a statement Friday that Sicknick wanted to be a police officer his entire life. He served in the New Jersey Air National Guard before joining the Capitol Police in 2008.

“Many details regarding Wednesday’s events and the direct causes of Brian’s injuries remain unknown, and our family asks the public and the press to respect our wishes in not making Brian’s passing a political issue,” the family said.

 mondite 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> Perhaps the Republican party will wither on the vine and a new similar party will grow in its place?  What other parties are there?

Not any of any scale. The third party is the Libertarians which could be considered a outside contender in a handful of states but barely that.

 MargieB 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

It was what he did at the time of the event. He should have been mortified at the time realising that people were using force and hurt would occur, even death. he should have acted immediately on being told.  Aides around him were shocked at his inaction and emotional response to the situation- approval, they said , was his response.

Crocodile tears after the event don't really count  Absolute mortification by resigning immediately would seem a more appropriate response.

Post edited at 15:38
 redjerry 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Semantics it may be, but using "extreme" to characterize , for example, an aspirational policy to give all americans meaningfull access to the american healthcare system strikes me as a bit like the use of "clean" in this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJVbdiMgfM&

Post edited at 16:14
 MargieB 12 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

The Republican party must have spent the last 24 hours watching the build up of public opinion. The social media and press and TV works as regards quick communication. They may decide that public opinion on the whole supports divesting from trump. I can't really understand the time delays unless this is the explanation- time for the general public to absorb what has actually happened.

Today will be a revelation about the US republican party, well at least to me in the UK. It would surprise me if the 25th amendment wasn't used and what earthly advantage would there be  to the republican party not to use it ?? They can't possibly think after this trump is a vote winner? Maybe they are judging how  much and fast trump support has faded away after this event?

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

Fine, radical is the term used here, far left. blah blah Good day.

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

It's still coming out just how bad it was in the building. hence Pelosi being so furious. The stories are only just coming out. Conservatives who attended are being rounded up as their flights land.

 fred99 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Yeah, they've even said Trump admits some responsibility. Big donors are pulling money and that hurts.

Not something that he's been seen/heard to say himself. Only someone else claiming that he accepts some responsibility. As such we must assume it's Republic Party or Trump underlings doing PR to damp down the fires.

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Not something that he's been seen/heard to say himself. Only someone else claiming that he accepts some responsibility. As such we must assume it's Republic Party or Trump underlings doing PR to damp down the fires.

He's just retracted it and said he didnt say it. 'blameless'

 redjerry 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

The thing thats irritating is the constant, dishonest, false equivalence.

So on the right, extreme = 45% (as of a day or two ago) of republicans support (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/01/07/nearly-half-of-republicans-support-the-invasion-of-the-us-capitol) an armed invasion of the capitol to overturn the results of the presidential election.

On the left: extreme = hoping to give people some healthcare.

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> it might not be available in the EU but...

There's some recent news about the UK that I feel you might have missed...  ;-)

 fred99 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> He's just retracted it and said he didnt say it. 'blameless'

Am I surprised ?

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

I'm not disagreeing. What is seen as a radical policy here is bloody main stream all over the world. We know giving healthcare for free actually reduces costs long term. There's very little argument against it.

 deepsoup 12 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

> Aides around him were shocked at his inaction and emotional response to the situation..

Ha ha, yeah, of course they were!  So shocked they could barely jump over the side of the ship and start frantically ratty-paddling away.

 Roadrunner6 12 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

> It was what he did at the time of the event. He should have been mortified at the time realising that people were using force and hurt would occur, even death. he should have acted immediately on being told.  Aides around him were shocked at his inaction and emotional response to the situation- approval, they said , was his response.

> Crocodile tears after the event don't really count  Absolute mortification by resigning immediately would seem a more appropriate response.

I hope his cabinet members don't leave, I think its their responsibility to tie him down for the next 9 days so nobody else dies or vote him out. I think those who are walking away now with 9 days to go are cowards.

 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I hope his cabinet members don't leave, I think its their responsibility to tie him down for the next 9 days so nobody else dies or vote him out. I think those who are walking away now with 9 days to go are cowards.

I've thought they were cowards before this. They are playing brinkmanship, jumping off the sinking ship aiming for maximum coverage of their acts as if they are somehow better than the Trump train crash, yet many like Chad Wolf are prime architects.

I find it nauseating how Pence and some degree McConnell are now being talked about as the good guys in this. They are complicit cowards who have steered the shit storm the entire time and are as guilty as Trump for all this. That cnut Bolton too, the cowards coward. Any impeachment should include those sacks of shit, who aided and abetted him the entire way.

They are the US equivalent to the Gang of Four (in complicity of course, not in scale).

 MargieB 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

 Imposing the 25th amendment would remove a weak, inactive leadership and replace it with an acting republican president in a time of unprecedented potential internal terror.   If it isn't  done, how are all the services co-ordinated if there was a major incident? It seems now a serious  internal "keeping the peace" issue and it needs a dependable leadership. Surely that is a compelling reason for the 25th amendment to be triggered by republicans. Trump didn't react before so  will  he react effectively at all in the future?  Unlikely.

Post edited at 22:06
 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> It's still coming out just how bad it was in the building. hence Pelosi being so furious. The stories are only just coming out. Conservatives who attended are being rounded up as their flights land.

The incident with the black Capitol Security guy is quite something. I'd be expecting some sort of public accolade for him soon. As shit as some security no doubt was, that guy was thinking on his feet. I don't know, but it could be that the security has different levels of roles, with the guys inside being qualified to protect VIPs whilst the guys on the perimeter being a separate detail.

I watched Pelosi's tour of inside the building and the main thing I gleaned was how effective the staff's drills were for sheltering in place. They are briefed on all this, as is any public servant working in a government building, and from reports and footage they nailed it. To a degree the movements of intruders was intentional containment based on a security oversight plan (with all it's weaknesses and f*ckery).

Must suck though being first on the list to not be personally whisked away by security, and have to sit it out in place knowing another years promotion would have got you a space in the bunker drinking instant with Chuck & Nancy.

 waitout 12 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

>  Imposing the 25th amendment would remove a weak, inactive leadership and replace it with an acting republican president in a time of unprecedented potential internal terror.   If it isn't  done, how are all the services co-ordinated if there was a major incident? It seems now a serious  internal "keeping the peace" issue and it needs a dependable leadership. Surely that is a compelling reason for the 25th amendment to be triggered by republicans. Trump didn't react before so  will  he react effectively at all in the future?  Unlikely.

The weakness is who would that stand-in Republican be? Gotta dig a fair way through GOP chain of command before getting to anyone even close to adequate.

Best way out I see is the GOP runs with impeachment.

 MargieB 13 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

Well, that's what they are running with and there seems to be republican support building up. It also would disbar trump from running again, if successful. 

 waitout 13 Jan 2021
In reply to MargieB:

I think the only sane option really. None of this will matter if he gets reelected, it's hard to image what that would entail. It's the first time I think the clichés about old school fascism would literally apply.

Impeachment needs to be about keeping him out first, accountability for this stuff a close but distinct second, in my opinion.

 Harry Jarvis 13 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

There is now some discussion of the use of the 14th Amendment as a way of stopping Trump standing again:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/11/politics/14th-amendment-explainer/index.html

This may be simpler than impeachment. Given the desire to see Trump made accountable for his actions, I suspect impeachments proceedings will go ahead, but it is likely they will fail, so this 14th Amendment may be the next tool in the box. 

 mondite 13 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> I watched Pelosi's tour of inside the building and the main thing I gleaned was how effective the staff's drills were for sheltering in place. They are briefed on all this, as is any public servant working in a government building, and from reports and footage they nailed it.

It has been pointed out that many of the staff are fairly young and so will have been doing active shooter drills since primary school.

 neilh 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

You have to be a bit careful in also assuming that there is no free healthcare in the USA( I see this sort of view in the UK perpetuated  all the time).

Medicare covers great swathes of the USA population including all ( I repeat that is all) those over 65, veterans, etc.It already costs the Federal govt billions.Far more than our spending on the NHS.

Its a complicated mess. But people need to remeber there are public hosptials in the system.

There is an  automatic assumption in the Uk that there is nothing provided. its like when you speak to Americans who assume there is no private system in the UK, and I recap on the options.

 waitout 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> There is now some discussion of the use of the 14th Amendment as a way of stopping Trump standing again:

> This may be simpler than impeachment. Given the desire to see Trump made accountable for his actions, I suspect impeachments proceedings will go ahead, but it is likely they will fail, so this 14th Amendment may be the next tool in the box. 

Interesting stuff and as you say, may be simpler. Seems less subject to interpretation than 'high crimes & misdemeanors' that has been hazy almost since it was the term chosen.

Perhaps it's also more functional to use against him once out of office, whereas impeachment still has all that as a large unknown.

Slapping both on the bastard would suit me just fine too, just quietly.

 mondite 13 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

> Medicare covers great swathes of the USA population including all ( I repeat that is all) those over 65, veterans, etc.It already costs the Federal govt billions.Far more than our spending on the NHS.

And not just in absolute terms but also per capita.

In reply to mondite:

> And not just in absolute terms but also per capita.


That's because their healthcare 'marketplace' is screwed - the same job costs loads more in the US than it does anywhere else. You cannot compare spend per head.

 MargieB 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

certain key republicans have spoken out for impeachment and they take people with them. So republican support in the house is building unlike the first impeachment process.

Maybe they do see it as a fork in the road for the party. They picked a candidate in trump with obvious character faults and ignored it because the only emphasis was his winning manipulative PR skills. Now those manipulative skills are placed to poor ends, the party is in a PR liability. Plus trump didn't act at the time- aides gave up on him to act, according to their reports, reports which also stated he was in a state of approval as the event was happening. But this 14th amendment seems to have arisen because there is other participation/ approval during the event by office holder person/s? It gets worse!

Post edited at 12:39
 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

> You have to be a bit careful in also assuming that there is no free healthcare in the USA( I see this sort of view in the UK perpetuated  all the time).

> Medicare covers great swathes of the USA population including all ( I repeat that is all) those over 65, veterans, etc.It already costs the Federal govt billions.Far more than our spending on the NHS.

> Its a complicated mess. But people need to remeber there are public hosptials in the system.

> There is an  automatic assumption in the Uk that there is nothing provided. its like when you speak to Americans who assume there is no private system in the UK, and I recap on the options.

Oh I know there is, I dont think I said there wasn't. Again it's a myth that democrats are forcing socialism on a country with massively socialized healthcare anyway. But we still have people dying without health insurance. My wife is an oncologist and she sees a few young mothers a year who will die because they sought help too late for fear of bankrupting their family. 

Medical costs is the number one reason for bankruptcy in the US.

 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> And not just in absolute terms but also per capita.

It's also better than the UK though for the haves I think (although at the population level I think the UK is better when averaged out), but a huge part of that cost is the end of life fighting they put on here, they keep treating well beyond viable outcomes. It was mentioned in a previous thread about ICU and use of ventilators for old people with dementia. That wouldn't happen in the UK. As an oncologist my wife deals with a lot of end of life decisions and it's what she struggles with most, trying to get a family just to enjoy their time together rather than keep up expensive futile treatments.

There is massive inequality in the healthcare system too though, with the right insurance it is incredible, little wait times, great treatments and we see this when you like at the lifespan discrepancy. My wife is an MD so is used to hospitals but was in the UK with my daughter and had to stay a night and was amazed they'd have to share a room and wait around for the operation. For our first we went to Princeton hospital in the US and it was like being in a Hilton, room service etc, cable. full works.

 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

The impeachment will hit court cases due to the wording of the constitution. But I think it will go ahead. You can't have a president who enters the final few weeks of his presidency, when there's no time for impeachment, being above the law. But prominent conservative lawyers are already saying impeachment is dead.

I don't think it is and now senior leaders like Cheney and McConnell have supposedly backed it I think its very possible.

If he gets censured it's a bloody disgrace. That's what Clinton got for essentially getting a blowjob in the oval office (it was a bit more complicate)... not inciting a riot where people died and they tried to overthrow the election and hang the VP..

 redjerry 13 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

"And not just in absolute terms but also per capita".

If I'm understanding you correctly, then no, thats incorrect.
Per capita healthcare spending in the us is approx $10k/person/year versus $4/person/year in the UK.


Furthermore, as bad as they are, those numbers make the US look better than it actually is because although, yes, almost everyone theoretically has access to healthcare there is a huge chunk of the population that doesn't have meaningful access in the same way that they do in the UK. 

Post edited at 14:41
 neilh 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Your wife may have gone to an older NHS hospital .usually in  the latest NHS  built ones alot of patients have their own rooms.........plus the full works.

 neilh 13 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

You miss my point. There are still one hell of alot covered by Govt funded healthcare in the USA.

 Harry Jarvis 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> The impeachment will hit court cases due to the wording of the constitution. But I think it will go ahead. You can't have a president who enters the final few weeks of his presidency, when there's no time for impeachment, being above the law. But prominent conservative lawyers are already saying impeachment is dead.

> I don't think it is and now senior leaders like Cheney and McConnell have supposedly backed it I think its very possible.

It is interesting that Kevin McCarthy has apparently declined to instruct Republican Representatives how to vote. I wonder if the numbers voting for impeachment would be different if it were a secret vote. 

However, I still don't believe there will be 17 Senators willing to cross the line. Even if McConnell were to vote in favour (very hard to imagine, he'd abstain instead) I can't see more than a handful of Senators voting for. Mitt Romney now has nothing to lose, so he's a possible, as is Lisa Murkowski. Anyone else? 

 redjerry 13 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

No doubt. I was responding to Mondite saying that the per capita cost in the UK was higher, it's not by a wide margin.

I n some way's the people getting screwed the most are those who have insurance, but not enough money to pay for the deductables, max out of pocket, etc.

 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to neilh:

> Your wife may have gone to an older NHS hospital .usually in  the latest NHS  built ones alot of patients have their own rooms.........plus the full works.

This was Oxford Children's, a pretty reputable one. 

 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Collins will I think - but she changed her mind last time.

I'm not sure. I'm not convinced it'll work but it might pressure him to resign and get pardoned by Pence. He can't pardon himself, that's guaranteeing a prosecution. It violates the principle that no one can be the judge in their own case and will get challenged.

 deepsoup 13 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

> If I'm understanding you correctly, then no, thats incorrect.

> Per capita healthcare spending in the us is approx $10k/person/year versus $4/person/year in the UK.

You're not understanding correctly.  Your figures here don't refute what Mondite said, they confirm it.

 neilh 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Nothing to do with reputation its more age of building, when it was built and so on.

My Dad was in a state of the art brand new  hospital in Stoke and was surprised that they had their own rooms... that is the way things are moving in the NHS...unless in certain medical environments for monitroring its reasonable for them to be grouped together.

 neilh 13 Jan 2021
In reply to redjerry:

I would agree and backs up with the stories I hear from USA colleagues.

In reply to neilh:

> the latest NHS  built ones alot of patients have their own rooms..

New NHS hospitals are most likely to be PFI, so aimed at dual use, or using a private hospital model.

 redjerry 13 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I just realized that...note to self...don't post before Ist cup of coffee!

 deepsoup 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> However, I still don't believe there will be 17 Senators willing to cross the line. Even if McConnell were to vote in favour (very hard to imagine, he'd abstain instead) I can't see more than a handful of Senators voting for. Mitt Romney now has nothing to lose, so he's a possible, as is Lisa Murkowski. Anyone else? 

Well God forbid they vote with their conscience, what they actually believe to be right, rather than just purely in their own self-interest.  But if Mitt Romney really has nothing left to lose, what has he lost so far? 

I'm sure it hurt his approval rating when he voted to convict the last time, but I bet his being the only senator with a spine as far as Trump was concerned last year is looking a lot better to plenty of Utah Republicans now.

No doubt a 'guilty' vote carries risks for a lot of Republican senators now, it's definitely not going to play well with the MAGA hats back home in the short term.  But in the context of the backlash Hawley is facing from his actions in all this (and that photo of his moronic 'salute') - is a 'not guilty' vote entirely risk-free for them either? 

How that plays with Republican voters back home now isn't the issue, it's how it's going to look in 2 or 4 years' time in retrospect, including whatever insanity Trump commits between now and then.

Post edited at 15:51
 fred99 13 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> No doubt a 'guilty' vote carries risks for a lot of Republican senators now, it's definitely not going to play well with the MAGA hats back home in the short term. 

Being realistic, what have Republican Senators got to lose (long term)if they vote to impeach Trump ?

The MAGA people are not Republicans any more, if they ever were. They are Trumpists, and would as soon beat up a Republican who disagreed with Trump as any Democrat. For the Republican party to continue obeying the whims of ONE FAMILY, led by what many people regard as a mentally deranged and totally self-centred individual is plain stupid - both for the country and the party.

The last thing they should do is dither regarding taking back control to a democratic majority of Republicans.

 Harry Jarvis 13 Jan 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Being realistic, what have Republican Senators got to lose (long term)if they vote to impeach Trump ?

For some of them, they risk losing a significant number of potential voters, alienating a loud and active cohort, active opposition from influential TV and radio commentators. For those Republican senators pondering how to vote, uppermost in their minds will be the consequential effects in 2022 and 2024. 

For all that large numbers of Americans voted this time round, voter turnout is not generally very high, and senate elections are sometimes won by narrow margins. The conundrum for Republican senators is the calculation - how many votes do I lose by repudiating Trump vs how votes to I gain by repudiating Trump?

 Roadrunner6 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Yep, they will be rapidly getting the data on this now. Sadly few will be motivated purely by what's right.

Kinzinger was the first former Trump loyalist who immediately called it for what it was.

In reply to fred99:

That's what I don't get. The Republicans that continue to stand behind Trump still don't seem to get that he will throw them under a bus as soon as they are either no longer useful or it saves his own skin and that his base will turn on you the moment you disagree with their beliefs. There is no disagreement or attempts to compromise on anything, it's what Trump says or you are the enemy. They've effectively sold their soul to the Devil. You only need to look at Pence to see this. For 4 years he has stood by Trump's side refusing to speak out or condem his many transgressions. However he is now public Enemy Number 1 for not refusing to rubber stamp Congress' certification of the election, which even if he wanted to do didn't actually have the power to do. I just don't understand how they can't look at the video's of Trump's base breaking into Congress chanting about hanging Pence and not see what lies ahead in their future. 

 waitout 14 Jan 2021
In reply to grumpyoldjanner:

> That's what I don't get. The Republicans that continue to stand behind Trump still don't seem to get that he will throw them under a bus as soon as they are either no longer useful or it saves his own skin and that his base will turn on you the moment you disagree with their beliefs. There is no disagreement or attempts to compromise on anything, it's what Trump says or you are the enemy. They've effectively sold their soul to the Devil. You only need to look at Pence to see this. For 4 years he has stood by Trump's side refusing to speak out or condem his many transgressions. However he is now public Enemy Number 1 for not refusing to rubber stamp Congress' certification of the election, which even if he wanted to do didn't actually have the power to do. I just don't understand how they can't look at the video's of Trump's base breaking into Congress chanting about hanging Pence and not see what lies ahead in their future. 

I heard this commented upon early on by someone with a background in social anthroplogy who equated it to the Big Man stuff that cargo cults have. Basically everyone is made to feel they have a special relationship to the Big Man that gives them advantages over the rules for everyone else, but of course it's just a ploy. We see this easily from the outside, but it's a glitch in psychology we all fall for and plenty pray on it, especially salesmen.

Trump has been quite overt in doing this, plenty have lined up to fill the places left by sacrificed inner circle before them, and many of those fools are now fronting up again to rally against him.

In reply to MargieB:

'Fork in road'! You can say that again. Such a gentle metaphor for the diametrically opposed tensions they now have to reconcile.

 MargieB 09:53 Thu
In reply to Gordon Stainforth This would give any republican party member pause for thought and should be compulsory viewing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m00084td/rise-of-the-nazis

The incipience of nazism started with a private militia and the destruction of the institutions of democracy took only 6 days. 

Patterns can repeat if care not taken. Watching the whole process of voting yesterday it seems the republican party has a job to do, values to find ......

Post edited at 09:58
 mondite 10:13 Thu
In reply to grumpyoldjanner:

> That's what I don't get. The Republicans that continue to stand behind Trump still don't seem to get that he will throw them under a bus as soon as they are either no longer useful or it saves his own skin and that his base will turn on you the moment you disagree with their beliefs.

Some are true believers/fruitcakes but others I think simply are stuck on the back of the tiger. As you say him and his base will turn on anyone who goes against them so unless everyone jumps enmass they are worried about being targetted.

So I would say most of them do understand now its just they dont know how to fix the problem.

 MargieB 12:05 Thu
In reply to mondite:

The problem is that he has had a bullying influence over the whole party- he does rule by intimidation and violent temper. I think the result of 10 for and 4 abstaining was firstly the first bilateral impeachment and secondly a quite unexpected shift considering the past 4 years.  The 4 abstaining was really interesting- conflict of personal conscience,{ swung by the debate and the riveting final speaker who directly appealed to them,} and constituency voting for trump -so go neutral  ?               


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