UKC

Not sure what I'm after here, just having a whinge really...

A while back a friend asked me if I wanted to go to Las Vegas with her. I said I wasn't really interested cos it's not my thing. I passed through briefly on a work trip once and wasn't greatly enamoured with the place and don't feel a huge need to go back. This topic has come up before, and she says if I didn't enjoy it I was doing it wrong and there's something there for everyone.

When she asked, she was in a bad place and not coping with lockdown well. Also I think she gets frustrated that her friends often aren't keen on going on trips with her (most of her friends having settled down etc and mostly doing couples/family things and such like). I kinda backed off from saying 'no' outright, which with hindsight was a mistake, but at the time she was hassling me a lot about the whole thing.

I'm not sure entirely what she wants to do, but she's mentioned a couple of things so far - a 'Top Gun' flying/dog fighting experience, and a shooting range thing. The flying thing is about $600, not sure about shooting but a quick internet search suggests $200 - $400. Flying sounds fun, but it's not something that's particularly on my bucket list. As for shooting, I've served in the army, so it's a bit of a bus man's holiday. She's keen on watching sports, not sure if this would feature on an itinerary, but I generally find watching any sport pretty tedious. Perhaps unsurprisingly for someone on this site, holidays for me generally revolve around some sort of outdoor activity (climbing, skiing, mtbing etc). I also don't really go in for packaged 'experiences'. While visiting a city is fine for a couple of days, much longer and I generally find the whole experience tiring.

It's likely to be an expensive trip, flights are around £600 when I did a quick search, not sure what hotels are like but that's another chunk. Then there's all the activities, plus food and drink (she tends to like to splash out a lot in this regard). It's an expensive prospect. If I really wanted to though I could probably afford it, but then these kinds of sums would pay for quite a while bumming around Chamonix for example, which I'd find much more enjoyable.

She brought this up again a couple of days ago. I said I'm not keen on the whole thing. I'm not sure if she's talking to me now. I feel bad for evidently having given her some hope and then dashed it. But I also feel like it's not unreasonable to not want to spend my finite time and money on someone else's idea of fun.

Obviously the thing to do is talk to her about this, but it's helpful to vent to a load of strangers! Feel free to judge away...

In reply to a crap climber:

You said judge so...

Your money, your time, do what the hell you like with both. Just because your friend wants to do and has having a shit time does not mean you should be guilt tripped into it. I’m sure they can be supported without you spending £1000+ to go to Las Vegas. 

In reply to a crap climber:

Agree to go on condition that you spend every second day doing some of the world class local cragging. Seems fair.

In reply to a crap climber:

Just tell her you have costed it out and can't afford it. 

In reply to a crap climber:

"Judge away"?? No way...... For me, for a trip I'm not keen on personally, it depends who's asking. If my wife or child or best friend who goes 50 years back ask, I might well go. But for just a casual or other friend, no way

In some kind of emergency (hard to imagine what), I might consider it. But she just said to you she's "in a bad place and not coping with lockdown well". For me, that is definitely nowhere near agreeing to go

And a side note, the trip would be very very expensive, not like a weekend in Cornwall or something

In reply to a crap climber:

I went so far as to visit Blackpool when asked to do by a very old friend.  That is the limit.  Brutal but true.

In your position I think if the friend was a close one I'd try to find some middle way

In reply to a crap climber:

If the problem is the destination/ activity rather than the friend, suggest a better one. 

White water rafting the Colorado? If' she's a city visit sort or person, find a city you want to see too?

But no point spending a lot of your money doing things you aren't keen on.

In reply to a crap climber:

You are correct.  The things it does have can generally be found elsewhere.  

I went to Vegas with a friend on a road trip years ago.  We were approached by a pimp who scoffed at her and handed me a calling card for a fake tittied fake blond.  The gutters were lined with calling cards in places.  When we checked in to the twin hotel room, the TV was showcasing the pay per view pornos - it was a vampire themed one at the time.  (This was in a classier hotel on the strip).  The swimming pool allowed alcohol and was very shallow, I presume to reduce the chances of fat, rich tourists drowning from being pissed. 

But, there's lots of great stuff near Vegas.  If you're flying that far, spend as long as you can out there in cheap motels far from the cities, visit Vegas for a show and a walk down the strip.  Check trip advisor but generally cheap motels out of town are clean, functional, safe, have a nice quite pool, don't charge for WiFi or breakfast, have free parking and good views of the night sky.  Visit some state parks as well as the obvious destinations.  It's hard not to have a good time road tripping in the south west USA.  Mind blowing place whatever you're in to.  Except Vegas.

I did enjoy the Blue Man Group, but they can be seen elsewher.

Almost the entirety of the USA is more interesting and fun than Vegas.  Except maybe Flordia.

Although the big issue is not Vegas (can't believe I said that) but the long term consequences of your relationship if you let yourself be arm twisted by guilt in to the trip.  Compromise and find one you both genuinely want to do or it'll be a mistake.  Vegas just compounds it.

Edit:  there's always Whitley Bay if you want to feel as grubby as Vegas without spending all the money yet to be a bit more exotic than Blackpool, although I understand it's going up market these days.

In reply to a crap climber:

Explain to her that travelling long haul for leisure purposes is unsustainable and morally unforgivable, that you have made a commitment to yourself never to do it again.

In reply to a crap climber:

A way of smoothing things over might be along the lines of apologies if you'd given the impression you might have been up for it, and Dax H's reason for not going to Vegas.

In reply to a crap climber:

The kind of activities she says she's interested in are the kinds of activities that you might do with your partner when you just tied the knot and are honeymooning in Vegas.

Given that Las Vegas has a reputation for providing marriage ceremonies so quick they might as well be a drive-in affair (and this may well exist), if I were you I'd ask myself how I'd feel about that.  Depending on the answer you give yourself, you might then raise it with your friend.

T.

Or not, of course.

In reply to a crap climber:

If your friend who has already told you that you were "doing it wrong" for not having enjoyed a visit to the place she is wanting you to accompany her to, to do expensive things you don't really fancy, is now not talking to you because you got closer to saying 'no' outright, then you've maybe dodged a bullet. 

There's "being in a bad place", and there's "being an energy vampire". 

In reply to a crap climber:

Tell her that while, generally, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas,  and you loved your previous visit, you have an uneasy feeling that the warrant has yet to expire.

In reply to a crap climber:

There's also the more general (if a little trite) "don't do things for the wrong reason" and it sounds like here you would be going to Vegas for very much the wrong reason. I get that it would class as "helping out a friend" somewhat, but it's too much for someone to expect. 
I do have some sympathy for her - there are loads of things I'd love to enjoy with company, but they aren't feasible due to friends having different tastes or commitments, or logistical impossibilities, so I just do them alone (whistlestop tours of Italy, freediving holidays to Egypt, plenty of concerts etc). Las Vegas alone will be less comfortable for her as a woman, I guess. But how is it your job to be her chaperone and almost therapist?

In reply to a crap climber:

Am I wrong in thinking that she probably wants to shag you? That would certainly be the decisive factor on whether to go or not for me.

Yes Vegas seems pretty tacky to me but you're less than  half a day's drive from Death Valley, half a day's drive from the Grand Canyon and the Hoover dam is just a few miles down the road. Then there's Joshua Tree of course.

If you can persuade her to hire a car and do a bit of driving it might make it tolerable but as you describe it, it and she would drive me insane.

In reply to a crap climber:

I can only imagine you're trying to knob her, given your apparent lack of backbone on this matter.

In reply to a crap climber:

Call her bluff; tell her you've always wanted to go for some 'certain' entertainment options, and that you can do what she wants during the day but after sun down, you've got other plans. Tell her to book nothing before 11am and you might bring a 'friend' along sometimes.

In reply to Removed User:

If I wanted to knob her then I'd just go on the trip... You may have a point about backbone though

For context we've been friends for about 12 years. Knobbing has never been on the cards from either side.

​​​​​​When I say not coping with lockdown well, there's a little more to this. She's been on anti depressants for quite some time had something of a breakdown a few years ago. Through lockdown she's been fairly bleak, saying she can't see the point in going on and that kind of thing. I'm not particularly great at dealing with this sort of thing, so when I originally didn't shoot the idea down straight away it was to avoid causing upset, more from the selfish perspective of not wanting to deal with it if I'm honest. I guess this is a fairly crappy thing to do. I feel like it's somewhat implicit that not agreeing to go will result in another bout of deeper depression. I suppose this is kind of manipulative, though I don't think it's intentional.

Obviously going on a holiday isn't a long term solution to mental illness anyway. It's not something I can really solve though.

In reply to a crap climber:

I went a few years ago for a friends wedding, apart from the actual wedding, hanging out with friends and the odd random event like the skyjump off the stratosphere I wasn't overly enamoured with the Vegas piece, but got a solid days worth of bouldering at red rocks (there's pad hire at the wall on the way out of town), tremendous it was but only scratched the surface, that coupled with a few days in Yosemite will stay with me forever. Then heading to San Francisco for another couple of days and waking up to see a hummingbird after dossing in the car on the way back down the ocean road toped it off nicely. 

Plenty fun to be had assuming you get to steer the itinerary a little to balance things up.

In reply to a crap climber:

Thanks for opening up and elaborating on the situation. It has somewhat concreted my stance which is that you can’t be responsible for looking after all these aspects of other peoples’ lives. I make the analogy to the safety notices in aeroplanes saying you should put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others including your own children.

I used the phrase “energy vampire” above. This refers to a lockdown scenario that has arisen with me; I seem to have been “passed the baby” from one of my social circles, an oddball loner guy (a bit like me except totally not 😃) who is furloughed and insular and strongly “on the spectrum” and I realised a couple of months ago that whilst overall a decent chap with some crossover interest in cult movies,he’s not technically my friend, he’s a bit annoying, needy and clingy, and he was beginning to affect my mental state via a constant deluge of inane Facebook messages either giving too much boring information (eg “I just yawned, guess that’s a sign I should go to bed”) or being quite invasive (eg “how much did you pay for that basketball this afternoon because there is on on hotdeals dot co dot uk for £5.79”).

Ive hidden my Facebook timeline from the guy and muted notifications on Messenger, and also only reply to non-inane messages. It’s been beneficial. If he senses what I’ve done, great. Cruel to be kind. If he doesn’t, also great. He can fire his inane messages into the void and only get replies to interesting stuff. If he gets upset with me and goes into a silent sulk it’s no great loss to me

Your situation is different, she is an actual friend etc but as you say, going on this trip is no long term solution to what’s going on with her, lockdown or not. Basically a very expensive sticking plaster that won’t help a broken soul, sad to say.

I guess what I am saying in the post just above is that I’ve never regretted making massive or total reduction in contact with people who are causing me mostly negative feelings, regardless of what might happen to them afterward. Maybe that makes me callous and cold hearted but I don’t think so; despite how I come across on here, I am a kind person....and I can’t be kind if I’ve sucked into some dark vortex of clingy neediness. It’s also the reason I saw sense last year and did not persist with the potential adoption of a rescue dog who was going to be hard work and was going to totally isolate me. 

In reply to a crap climber:

Personally, I'd go.  Vegas might be tacky, but it's one of those "do before you die" places.  And what no-one seems to mention, despite this supposedly being a climbing and hiking group (ha ha) is that Red Rocks Canyon (and the entire Nevada desert) is on its doorstep, with Mt Charleston not much further away.  It's totally worth going just for these.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

What's that expression, "with friends like you"....

In reply to a crap climber:

Possibly looking at this BBC thing about helping a friend will help https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57013126 , good luck.

In reply to a crap climber:

I'd separate out the two things. Supporting your friend and doing the trip.

Personally, I found Las Vegas a hellhole and couldn't wait to get out. But the surrounding area is fabulous for all sorts of outdoor activities. I was travelling with someone who wanted to go and it seemed a fair trade for 2 weeks in the great outdoors for an overnight stay in Las Vegas.

Your friend needs support. Might be worth having the discussion directly. You really don't want to take that trip with all that expense at a time when travelling is still fraught with many Covid related issues, but you do recognise her position and want to support her. The 'you must do this very expensive thing that you don't want to do' issue is reaching out for help, probably with the hope this will make everything OK. But it won't, especially if you aren't enjoying it. So offer support in other ways.

In reply to a crap climber:

From what you've said, it sounds like she needs to get out and feel some excitement and Vegas seems like an obvious choice. Maybe there are other exciting, non Vegas, things to do that she has not considered.

Perhaps these things come across better written down. I'd lay out what you want to do in an email. If you go, then you'd like to do x,y,z, but not, a, b or c. If you don't want to go, say so directly. Dont dismiss any sort of shared activity, but suggest somewhere else that is more suited to both of your timescales/ finances/ interests.

It's easy to say 'dont be manipulated by another's guilt trip'. However, if they harm themselves, you'd no doubt feel shit. Not a great place to be in. I think honest, but tactful, communication is the way forward, along with some negotiation on shared activity.

In reply to a crap climber:

You don't have to have a boring time to help your friend have a good time. Perhaps suggest doing a less expensive trip which you will both enjoy with a mutual hobby?

That shows you value the friendship and also value your own time/ enjoyment/ money. 

In reply to Blanche DuBois:

What's that expression from my post "he’s not technically my friend" ?

In reply to a crap climber:

Politely and firmly say "No. But how about you come to Chamonix with me in July if that's possible". Which may not be possible so you get out of jail either way

In reply to a crap climber:

Don't go! You'll just feel resentful for spending so much time and money on something that you don't really want to do and that's not going to be good for your relationship with your friend.

Talk to her, be honest about not wanting to go, and come up with a different trip that's a compromise between what you both want to do. That way you're supporting her but not in a way that's creating an unhealthy dependency between you. If you can't come up with a compromise then it's a bit of an indication that your relationship as friends is not really working. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

How do you qualify to technically be one? Just askin'.

In reply to a crap climber:

Fundamentally, do you think there is any medical reason why an expensive holiday will cure your friend's underlying health issues ?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

  Simple test. Would I enjoy a single hour in the pub with you? If the answer is "yes", you qualify!

In reply to Removed User:

This.

I've been to Vegas, um, actually I've lost count. I think about a dozen but cant say for sure. All company conferences. The place can be amazing and there are loads of shows, great bars away from the strip and some awesome places to eat. 

I managed to escape once. A day trip to death valley and the mojave desert (area 51) and it was amazing. Standing there in early May watching the dust devils as the heat builds is awesome, with the sharp peaks rising in all directions.

I still have a lump of salt at home from that trip.

In reply to wercat:

I’d happily spend over £1,000 on a trip to Vegas before I’d spend £5 on a trip to Blackpool. And I’ve never been to Vegas.

In reply to Blanche DuBois:

Nibs named Red Rocks in a post 4.5 earlier than yours, and a few other people mentioned the great climbing/hiking options more generally. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

4.5 hours earlier. Sorry for managing to omit a whole word 

In reply to a crap climber:

You're friends so presumably there is something you share in common, is there not a compromise break/activity you'd both enjoy? I guess current circumstances limit your options somewhat but it's often the trips I maybe wouldn't have booked if left to my own devices that turn out to be the most memorable.

jk

In reply to a crap climber:

So let's got travelling, sounds like not coping with lockdown at all!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

You have to sit and exam, and score more than 80% correct.

In reply to a crap climber:

Ok, if you've been friends for that long surely you can be honest with her and tell her what you've told us? Be sensitive about it and tell her you understand how badly she feels the need to get away from it all and you'd like her to be happy but it's really not your scene. See if you can suggest an alternative that would suit you both. A road trip around the desert maybe or visiting San Francisco or even New York instead. You must have things in common that you could both enjoy doing if you've been friends for twelve years.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yeah, like others, I worry that this trip wouldn't make things better. They might actually make things worse, as the realisation that this long-dreamed of trip hasn't magically improved her life, and didn't live up to the dream.

At best, it will be a palliative. 

In reply to a crap climber:

How old is she? How do you know she's not interested?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I get what you're saying, sometimes it's about the need to 'not be pulled under'. It was a stark realisation for me, that sometimes people can not get the support they need if it's too much for those they reach out to. It's not an easy life truth if one wants everybody to be okay.