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Furlough Envy

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 La benya 02 Jun 2020

8.7m people on furlough.

Approximately half of those are on Bournemouth beach (I know, as i'm looking at the webcam longing for some waves). ~I cant help the resentment. They aren't doing anything wrong, but I cant help the little voice inside my head which says 'i'm paying for this, go home and stay in like the rest of us'.

Is it really a holiday as it seems through green tinted glasses or do the stresses of uncertain employment (isn't that what is designed to alleviate?) counter any benefits? Am I allowed to be jealous?

What I don't think is acceptable is the neighbours, who having been on furlough for the whole time have taken up weekday drinking and were sitting in the garden, shouting about and listening to music til about 11.30 last night.

There has also been a massive increase in people camping on the beach, shitting and littering everywhere, presumably as they don't need to get back for work (above the normal abuse of the beach seen every summer).

Anyone else had some negative experiences of people taking the piss while on furlough?

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 Timmd 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

> What I don't think is acceptable is the neighbours, who having been on furlough for the whole time have taken up weekday drinking and were sitting in the garden, shouting about and listening to music til about 11.30 last night.

> There has also been a massive increase in people camping on the beach, shitting and littering everywhere, presumably as they don't need to get back for work (above the normal abuse of the beach seen every summer).

It seems entirely reasonable to be irked by the above to me.

Edit: Some envy or jealousy is probably natural, but it seems to be ourselves we bother with it when it looms. I'm single and have been by myself a lot, I've been telling myself how nice it is for people to be chilling together as couples or households, if I catch myself being too dischuffed.

Post edited at 13:38
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 skog 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I'm on furlough; my wife isn't.

I hate it.

I do at least have a fair idea what extended maternity leave with a bit of home schooling feels like, now.

It certainly isn't all bad, and it clearly beats actual unemployment (for now, at least...), but I'd trade this in a flash for the life I had back in February, or even just for getting back to work and the kids to school where they could see their friends again properly.

The grass is always greener?

 lorentz 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Inclined to agree ... I'm on furlough myself and staying at home largely except for dull solo bike rides near to home and the very occasional foray into local countryside to socially-distance walk the dog. The problem isn't the furlough scheme per se, it's just that as Satre said...  Hell is other people.

Given the choice, I'd avoid the beach like the literal plague just now. My bro lives near the New Forest just off the road to Bournemouth and said he'd never seen the traffic jam so bad before and events at Durdle Door last weekend beggar belief!

Edit: typo & sense

Post edited at 14:04
OP La benya 02 Jun 2020
In reply to lorentz:

Yes, I've lived her 14 years on and off and never seen the rubbish as bad and never heard of as many 'silly bugger' stories as now.  Of course, everything like that is in sharp focus at the moment.  Surprisingly though, other places nearby- The Forest being an example have seemed oddly quiet considering the sun etc.  We rode our bikes for 4 hours on Saturday and barely saw another rider.

There's always going to be people to take the piss, and with 25% of the workforce on furlough even a small percentage can have a large effect.

I used to be quite keen on the idea of a UBI, swayed by the argument that people would fill there time with other worthwhile pursuits.  I am now firmly against the idea as people cant be trusted and given the chance we would all (the royal we- I know for sure I would) descend into fecklessness.

3
cp123 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I'm not furloughed and whilst it may be easy to see all the people on 'holiday' remember these people work for buisnesses that have been significantly impacted by the Corona virus. These businesses may struggle to cope as we navigate the socially distanced waters ahead and people are probably facing the real worry of thier employer facing difficult times or their self employed work drying up.

To be honest I'm glad I have my work.

 FactorXXX 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

If the Government is paying people to be furloughed, then why don't they get them to do something in return such as litter picking, or tree planting, etc. ? 

8
 Timmd 02 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

Social distancing may be a part of why not, but I'm figuring the other part is this government's famous ability to be organised and efficient and to see the bigger picture to most benefit us all.

I'm getting pretty sick of lock down now, even with the risk of infection. If it'd been a harder lock down at the start, maybe there might be less chance of a serious rise again like is being predicted as things relax. 

Taking pills anyway, can sometimes leave it feeling like a toe hold of a couple of inches remains on life's positiveness...

Post edited at 19:10
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 mullermn 02 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> If the Government is paying people to be furloughed, then why don't they get them to do something in return such as litter picking, or tree planting, etc. ? 

Encouraging them to stay at home while simultaneously compelling them to go outside does sound like something our government would do, now you mention it..

In reply to La benya:

I am working from home, full time. At times I am jealous of those on furlough, compared to them I am working 5 days for 1 days pay. 

 FactorXXX 02 Jun 2020
In reply to mullermn:

> Encouraging them to stay at home while simultaneously compelling them to go outside does sound like something our government would do, now you mention it..

The Furlough rules allow you to work elsewhere in either a paid role, or in a voluntary one.

 Dave the Rave 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Not jealous at all. I would have hated it. 
I think we should have a clap for the furloughers. See how they like it.

 Davidlees215 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I was on furlough for 8 weeks with 80% of my usual pay which included average overtime from the last year (usually 25% of my pay is overtime). 

Now I'm back at work alongside 3 others (out of 14 who do a similar role to myself). Quiet with no overtime so now I'm earning less than I did on furlough. So a bit annoyed I'm working and loads of my colleagues are still off but I'm fairly sure most of the others will be out of a job once my employer has to pay some of their wages.

 flatlandrich 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Yeah, sure, you're allowed to be jealous. I've not stopped working through lockdown and so I come home from from a hard days work to see my neighbour relaxing in his hammock with a cold beer, chilling to some music. In one breath he's telling me how much this is like his last holiday to Thailand and in the next telling me he's received the £10k small business grant from the local council. He runs a barbers shop so can't open and is normally a hard working chap so I don't begrudge him that and I wouldn't want to trade places with him but it's hard not to be at least a bit envious.

There will be winners and losers when it comes to jobs. Some of the 'winners' will have been on a three month holiday at the tax payers expense. While some of the 'losers' will have lost their jobs and others will have paid for their jobs with their lives. When I feel a bit jealous I keep reminding myself of that last sentence.

 artif 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I've continued to work through the entire time, on reduced pay, while most of my colleagues have been at home on the same money. Not too bothered as I've been on less hours, I normally work 60+ but have been on a 3 x 12 hour day week. Really not looking forward to a 5 day working week again.

Living near a beach has been interesting, the lock down has highlighted its the locals who don't clean up after their dogs (despite the previous complaints about visitors being at fault).

The recent influx of visitors has left the beaches in a worse state though. 

 skog 02 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> The Furlough rules allow you to work elsewhere in either a paid role, or in a voluntary one.

That would be grand, if either schools or childcare were open.

 DancingOnRock 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I think we all have to do what we can do for ourselves in our own situations. Specifically at this time we can’t afford to be judgmental on anyone else and should be thankful we are in whatever situation we are in. The obvious worst case scenario is unconscious lying on our stomachs being fed by a tube. 
 

I’m on reduced wages and no overtime. I’ve been frantically paying off debt ever since Brexit raised its head, and my kids are doing no money draining activities, so am in a comfortable place. At the moment. 
 

If the economy is simply on pause and just starts up again, those on furlough will themselves be paying for it over the next 60 years, along with the rest of us. 
 

Support your friends in need if you can, they’ll be thankful and maybe (no guarantees) they’ll pay you back in some way in the future. 
 

 FactorXXX 02 Jun 2020
In reply to skog:

> That would be grand, if either schools or childcare were open.

Not everyone has children. 
Most other families have two parents so childcare can be arranged between them.  If childcare isn't possible, fair enough.
The Government is essentially paying peoples wages for doing nothing.  Is it too much to ask that they put a little back by working a few hours doing things that would benefit the country by making it a better place to live?
For example, maybe a climber, walker, etc. who is furloughed could volunteer to do path maintenance. 
Is that really too much of a hardship?

 

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 Dave the Rave 02 Jun 2020
In reply to flatlandrich:

I’m not envious at all of anyone who has been made to sit on their arse. They’re ducked if they do and ducked if they don’t.

Some people’s states of minds at having to return to work after 10 weeks must be horrendous. To have no job to go to must be worse.

I’m really glad that my job has allowed a normal routine if putting me and the family at higher risk than furloughers. 
 

Hope you’re back to normality soon guys and girls.

 mik82 02 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Unfortunately for a lot of these people, furlough is just going to turn out to be an extended, state-funded redundancy payment. I'm glad to have still been working, and I don't begrudge people making the most of their time given what's probably going to happen later in the year.

Post edited at 23:00
 Dave the Rave 02 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Not everyone has children. 

> Most other families have two parents so childcare can be arranged between them.  If childcare isn't possible, fair enough.

> The Government is essentially paying peoples wages for doing nothing.  Is it too much to ask that they put a little back by working a few hours doing things that would benefit the country by making it a better place to live?

> For example, maybe a climber, walker, etc. who is furloughed could volunteer to do path maintenance. 

> Is that really too much of a hardship?

I’m sure that plenty would, but then you have the issues of extra cars at honeypot areas causing congestion and possibly disease transmission, along with potential vandalism of their vehicles?

 skog 02 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Not everyone has children. 

Did you really think that needed saying? Lots do, and society and employment are built around them being at school a lot of the time, and there being childcare the rest of the time. It isn't even OK to beg grandparents for help just now (not that everyone has that option anyway).

> Most other families have two parents so childcare can be arranged between them.  If childcare isn't possible, fair enough.

> The Government is essentially paying peoples wages for doing nothing.  Is it too much to ask that they put a little back by working a few hours doing things that would benefit the country by making it a better place to live?

Yep, I suppose my wife could take some time off from her NHS work to watch the kids while I do some path maintenance. But I don't think your priorities are great, there.

And the government isn't paying people for doing nothing, it's paying to try to minimise the number of companies and jobs destroyed by the measures it has taken to deal with a pandemic, and to reduce social contact at workplaces to slow the spread of it.

People doing some community service as you suggest sounds fair enough, as long as the infrastructure is there to support them (and how long would it take to set up the programmes and recruit the team leaders and the like?) - but there's also the consideration of whether the benefits of such work justifies the increased spread of covid-19 that would result from it.

The whole setup is cobbled together quickly to try to deal with a disaster and minimise the long-term consequences of it. And it isn't going to last a lot longer like this. It isn't even close to fair, but if that's all you have to worry about I'd have to say you're doing very well indeed.

 deepsoup 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Stating the bleedin obvious here, but I think it's worth mentioning:
Being annoyed by antisocial (or merely thoughtless & selfish) behaviour is not envy.

 Dax H 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I don't have Furlough envy at all. Easter weekend is the only time I have had off and it was doing my noodle in. I have to admit though I would like to do a bit less. 

I have only had 1 guy at work with me whilst the rest have been (some still are) off,  I explained at the start that I needed him in because he has the most transferable skills next to myself and as a thank you for working through he can start late and finish early. Also once our work starts picking up again he is in for a nice bonus. 

My other guys as I have explained before have work envy, there is only 1 who has enjoyed the time off and ironically he is the first one I brought back on Monday, the rest are dying to get back, some due to being bored, 1 because he is sick of looking after his kid and 1 because he needs structure and routine in his life. 

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 Skyfall 03 Jun 2020
In reply to artif:

>  the lock down has highlighted its the locals who don't clean up after their dogs

Ditto.  Dog poo and abandoned black bags everywhere.

 jkarran 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

> I used to be quite keen on the idea of a UBI, swayed by the argument that people would fill there time with other worthwhile pursuits.  I am now firmly against the idea as people cant be trusted and given the chance we would all (the royal we- I know for sure I would) descend into fecklessness.

Our options for what to do with days our own are very limited right now, I think it's pretty unfair to characterise people as feckless for enjoying themselves as best they can in the sun. It's a rare commodity to have time and nice weather.

Jk

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OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to jkarran:

Surely the lack of freedom of movement is more reason that people (if the theory were to hold) should be investing their time in art, music, charity, entrepreneurship and self betterment. instead they were given and inch and theyve taken a mile... all the way to the beach where theyre shitting behind beach huts and jumping of durdle door while the baying crowd whoops and hollers.

 jkarran 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

We see the world differently, no point arguing about it. 

Jk

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OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to jkarran:

An odd stance to take on a forum, after initiating the discussion by commenting a different perspective to the original post...but OK.

 jkarran 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I disagree with you on this and from your response I'm clearly not going to sway you nor you me so I was signing off, no point us antagonising each other. I don't believe echo chambers are healthy but I don't feel like arguing pointlessly either. Have a nice day.

Jk

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 Juicymite86 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Ive been working this whole time , annoys me that people are getting paid to stay off work ,i wont get extra holiday or nothing , not on in my books , us key workers should get some tax back or holiday's to compensate us , others have had a couple month holiday

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 Dax H 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Juicymite86:

> Ive been working this whole time , annoys me that people are getting paid to stay off work ,i wont get extra holiday or nothing , not on in my books , us key workers should get some tax back or holiday's to compensate us , others have had a couple month holiday

To add insult to injury not only have they had 2 months off they have also been accruing their normal holiday entitlement during that time. 

Think on it this way though, you are still in work because you are the most valuable in the company, I'm talking to a lot of businesses owners who are looking at redundancies, some because of a down turn in their work and some who have discovered they can get by just fine with x amount of their staff not working. 

Those who carried on will be the last to go out the door. 

 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Dax H:

> ... the rest are dying to get back, some due to being bored, …. and 1 because he needs structure and routine in his life. 

Sounds like me. Got the phone call a couple of hours ago, I'm back to work on Monday. Yippee !!

(and I wouldn't have thought that to be the reaction when this all started)

Now all I've got to do is set the alarm at work time for the rest of the week and practice actually getting up on time again.

 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Juicymite86:

> Ive been working this whole time , annoys me that people are getting paid to stay off work ,i wont get extra holiday or nothing , not on in my books , us key workers should get some tax back or holiday's to compensate us , others have had a couple month holiday


Many will go back to jobs where they might be on reduced hours, or indeed may well be made redundant completely if things don't pick up.

Very few will get pay rises over the next few years.

All these points will adversely affect circumstances over the next few years, and also pensions.

Those in jobs that have continued unabated will suffer none of these.

And, it isn't a real holiday, where you can go away, or even have a day out, a day at the crag, a walking holiday, even a quiet pint in a country pub.

All what those on furlough have really gained from is the ability to have carried out the biggest spring clean in years, and maybe some DIY - if they could get the tools/materials needed.

Government workers went on about having to work for an entire week when the rest of us suffered short time or redundancy due to the banking crisis. But none of them complained about having more money in their pocket at the time, and having their pensions unchanged. The grass is always greener on the other side.

1
 skog 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Juicymite86:

>  others have had a couple month holiday

Stuck mostly in the house, trying to keep children educated and entertained and unable to even let them play with their friends?

If that's how you spend your holidays, fair enough, it takes all sorts. I'd be happy for my tax money to pay to have you quarantined like this for a couple of months when I go back, on condition you have to stick it out, there's no early exit allowed.

For me, going back to work is going to feel almost like escaping on holiday. As long as there's a work to go back to, that is.

 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Juicymite86:

> Ive been working this whole time , annoys me that people are getting paid to stay off work ,i wont get extra holiday or nothing , not on in my books , us key workers should get some tax back or holiday's to compensate us , others have had a couple month holiday

There are several issues with this point of view, which frankly I find incredibly tiresome. The first thing to point out is that it is the employers decision whether someone gets furloughed, not the employees. As a result whether someone wants to be furloughed or not is pretty much irrelevant as its not their decision to make.

Think about why people are being furloughed and what the alternative is, namely massive unemployment and a huge increase in those claiming universal credit, as we are seeing in America. My suspicion, although I may be wrong, is that you and others who are against the furlough scheme would also have a problem with those people claiming "benefits."

If you think being furloughed is a holiday then you are living on a different planet to me. The first few months were shit and it is only marginally better now we are allowed to go climbing again. On top of that, even when I do go back to work the business will be in dire straits and at real risk of going under in the short term. So actually, far from being a holiday the process is actually quite confronting from a financial and career perspective. This is also true with regard to your point about holiday time. You seem to be suggesting those who have been furloughed should be forced to take all their holiday in a period where they cannot travel or do anything enjoyable with it. Dumb.

Finally, in response to the point that the OP made that those working are "paying" for those on furlough, this is totally wrong. Everyone who has paid tax at anypoint in their working lives is "paying" for it if you insist on using that metric. In reality, it has been paid for by adding to the national deficit which as far as I'm concerned is no more real than Monopoly money.

Post edited at 14:05
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 skog 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

You know, I think we're maybe just at that stage - everyone's frustrated and cracking up, and now many are looking to make themselves feel better by taking it out on some other group that they somehow imagine are having a better time than them.

OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

It may be no more real than monopoly money, but the millennial generation and younger will be paying for the illusion for the rest of their lives.

1
 The New NickB 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

Government workers generally found themselves with a lot less money in their pockets and their pensions changed, if they kept their jobs, as a result of the austerity that followed the banking crisis.

3
 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

As a member of that generation, I assure you I know! Although I would say that just like national debt built up during the war, repayments should be spread over an extremely long period of time as there is absolutely no need to pay it back quickly. There is no reason it couldn't be paid back over 250 years. I'm not convinced there is much of a reason to pay it back at all, mostly because it doesn't truly exist (!) but there we are.

Post edited at 15:02
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OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

Yeah.... you tell a merchant bank that their money they paid you doesn't really exist and you wont be paying back your 10, 20, or 50 year gilts and see how the next round of marketing to refinance these goes.... heard much about how that went for Argentina?

 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I'm not really up for having this debate as it was more of a rueful aside than a challenge to someone. I agree that under the current system of capitalism clearly me having such a conversation wouldn't work.

I think a better, more sustainable form of capitalism would allow for this but this is not the thread for such a conversation. 

2
 neilh 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Dax H:

And they have potentailly 2 years in which to take that holiday entitilement if the employer wants to carry over.

But as an employer  you are entitled to make them take their holiday during their furlough period, but you do have to make up the difference between the 80% and their 100% pay.

As long as you give them say 2 weeks notice for 1 weeks holiday, this is quite legal to do.

There are it is estimated 25% of the workforce on furlough.Anybody who thinks that working is annoying instead of being furloughed  maybe wants to step back and think about the future for employment. Its not going to be pretty in the short/medium term.

OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

So why bring it up?  Are you and JKarran working together to bring things up, be challenged on them and then flounce away?

 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

It doesn't really need saying, but bringing up something tangentially related to the main topic of the OP, namely the furlough scheme, does not necessarily mean you can be arsed to carry on arguing that tangential point with someone who clearly sees it differently. Your view is fair enough but I have better things to do than argue the toss about it, even if I am furloughed.  

Post edited at 15:42
1
 summo 03 Jun 2020
In reply to mik82:

> Unfortunately for a lot of these people, furlough is just going to turn out to be an extended, state-funded redundancy payment. I'm glad to have still been working, and I don't begrudge people making the most of their time given what's probably going to happen later in the year.

I'm on the fence. But the longer furlough lasts the greater the damage economically and the higher chance of redundancy. There is a risk it becomes self fulfilling. 

OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

You were arsed enough to write it in the first place. have some conviction in your opinions. just looks like you said something without thinking it through and cant justify it.... from someone at work who should be doing something else.

Post edited at 15:50
 Osiris 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Sounds very jealous. Can't you be happy for other people having a good time? Or do you need everyone to suffer like you do in order to be satisfied. I'm zero hours and burning through my savings, but I love not working. I say anyone on furlough should be out enjoying their free time while it lasts. Life's hard enough. Let's just find joy however we can and joy in other people being happy, rather than having a whinge eh?

2
 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I was arsed enough to respond to what I saw as mildly offensive and pretty ignorant views of 'juicymite.' To illustrate my point about what I see as the fallacy of having to 'pay back' the cost of the furlough scheme I pointed out that the money has simply been added to the national deficit, which has always been huge and will never be paid back.

I think a lot of your OP about furlough envy makes sense, although I find your tone and choice of language about those who have been furloughed slightly disagreeable. Its interesting you've chosen to pick up on the rather niche, tangential point about the current model of capitalism we live under rather than anything else in my response about the actual realities of the situation. 

To be honest, like jkarran my main reason is that I suspect however I justify my own views I don't think you're particularly receptive to changing your mind given the somewhat aggressive baiting you've indulged in. Probably as a result of that, I doubt I will be particularly receptive to changing mine, so its probably best to stick with the topic of the OP, no? 

1
OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to Osiris:

Indeed. I said as much in the post.

Edit to say- I don't imagine that many people (especially outside this group) would be envyous of furlough as 'most' people don't value time as much as they do money and things.  I definitely do value time more which is where my envy comes from. Then to have people rub it in your face with their poor behaviour is an easy way to irk me. you may say furlough has been shite, i'm sure it has but what i mostly see is people having a jolly on the beach.

Post edited at 16:16
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OP La benya 03 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

I picked that part of your post as you contradicted yourself.  In one breath you said that previous tax receipts would pay for the furlough scheme, and then you said it would be added to national debt so it would be paid back in the future (or not at all).  Its silly. 

edit to say- i am always happy to change an opinion, but you have to convince me, not just state the obvious opposite opinion and hope i come around by way of an epiphany. It's not going to happen as i've compared and contrasted internally with what information i have and come to the opinion i hold. if i am to be swayed then i need additional information or a different (plausible) way of viewing the information.  That's why i'm 'baiting' you to defend your position. its just lazy and weak to throw it out there and then not be bothered to back it up.

Post edited at 16:19
 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to The New NickB:

> Government workers generally found themselves with a lot less money in their pockets and their pensions changed, if they kept their jobs, as a result of the austerity that followed the banking crisis.


Not the ones in my club - they made a point of bragging about being able to take even more holidays abroad. They then complained about not getting a high enough annual pay rise, whilst any pay rises in private industry, whilst greater as a percentage, were still taking years to actually catch up to where they were before, as a comparison in real terms.

And do you really believe that people who didn't lose any hours at work actually lost money ?

As for pensions changed, this was completely separate. The final salary pensions that many government workers had - and which were finally stopped - were the worst thing for the country ever, and shouldn't have been allowed to exist with all the fiddling involved - like people getting a promotion (or two) just before retirement in order to boost their pensions !

2
 spidermonkey09 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

Fair point, I didn't make that very clear. I suppose it depends on how you see things being paid for; is the cost of (insert government policy here) right now paid for by previous or future taxes? In reality its not that simple as taxation is a movable feast and government policy isn't changed year on year based on how fruitful the previous years collection was. In addition, a lot of government policy isn't paid for wholly by taxation and might involve taking some debt on as well. I don't like the cry of 'we're paying for people on furlough' precisely because of this complication; it simply isn't that simple and is a damaging message in any case. In addition, I do think it is totally feasible for the government to add the cost of the furlough scheme to the deficit, raise taxes a nominal amount and pay it off over an extremely long period of time in full knowledge that full 'repayment' is unlikely to ever occur. Its exactly what would happen in the event of another world war after all. 

 Dax H 03 Jun 2020
In reply to neilh:

> And they have potentailly 2 years in which to take that holiday entitilement if the employer wants to carry over.

I don't think an employer has the option to not let them carry their holiday over

> But as an employer  you are entitled to make them take their holiday during their furlough period, but you do have to make up the difference between the 80% and their 100% pay.

> As long as you give them say 2 weeks notice for 1 weeks holiday, this is quite legal to do.

I didn't know that, money wise it wouldn't cost me anything because I'm paying 100% anyway but I do think it would cause bad feeling if I forced them to take their holidays. 

> There are it is estimated 25% of the workforce on furlough.Anybody who thinks that working is annoying instead of being furloughed  maybe wants to step back and think about the future for employment. Its not going to be pretty in the short/medium term.

That is the point I was making, there are going to be a lot of redundancies when this is over. I expect them to start when the employer starts being out of pocket, first it's pensions and national insurance then it drops to 70% with the employer making up the 10% then 60% with the employer making up 20%. This will put a lot of people out of work. 

 The New NickB 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

> Not the ones in my club - they made a point of bragging about being able to take even more holidays abroad. They then complained about not getting a high enough annual pay rise, whilst any pay rises in private industry, whilst greater as a percentage, were still taking years to actually catch up to where they were before, as a comparison in real terms.

I'd rather go off research than your unreliable anecdotes. The IFS suggest that once adjusted for age and qualification, pay for men across public and private sector in 2010 was comparable, with pay for women being slightly better in the public sector, due to women carrying out many of the lowest paid jobs in the economy and the lowest paid jobs in the public sector paying slightly more than the minimum wage. As you say, from 2010 pay rises in the private sector have outstripped those in the public sector. In the case of men, generally it wasn't a case of catching up.

> And do you really believe that people who didn't lose any hours at work actually lost money ?

Plenty of people in the public sector lost hours, equally many lost jobs.

> As for pensions changed, this was completely separate. The final salary pensions that many government workers had - and which were finally stopped - were the worst thing for the country ever, and shouldn't have been allowed to exist with all the fiddling involved - like people getting a promotion (or two) just before retirement in order to boost their pensions !

This is just blind prejudice. The average local government pension is less than £5,000.

 fred99 03 Jun 2020
In reply to The New NickB:

> Plenty of people in the public sector lost hours, equally many lost jobs.

Examples please.

> This is just blind prejudice. The average local government pension is less than £5,000.

Is that all you can say - prejudice.

Apart from the National Pension (which everyone gets), any increased pension I'll get will be from what I have put in, not from what the taxpayer has had filched by public sector employees who have agreed with themselves that they should do so. As for averages - how many public sector employees are women working half a week in tandem with another due to job sharing that started with pregnancy ? 50% working for a significant number of people sure plays with the "averages".

5
 Ridge 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

If public sector workers are able to promote themselves up a couple of grades,  get mega pensions that they don't have to contribute to and can magically avoid paying tax on those pensions, why the hell didn't you get a job with the council? I would have done, if these imaginary perks were real.

 chris687 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

I read today that in the last month the largest amount of credit card debt has been paid off since records began about 20 years ago.  

Makes me think that perhaps this Furlough isn't being used for basic survival and that a lot of people quite frankly were less responsible with their money than they should have been before the government began giving it to them for free.

1
 off-duty 03 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

> Government workers went on about having to work for an entire week when the rest of us suffered short time or redundancy due to the banking crisis. But none of them complained about having more money in their pocket at the time, and having their pensions unchanged. The grass is always greener on the other side.

I've got a lot of sympathy for those in furlough who face an uncertain future, not to mention having suffered a 20% drop in income.

To suggest that the banking crisis left the public sector unaffected is sheer nonsense though.  Financially we've had pay freezes on salary scales, pay freezes on annual payrises, and radical pension reform. The mass redundancies and "cheaper at any cost" that was sold as "reforming policing" have meant less of us, doing more for longer. In addition we've experienced first hand the effects of austerity in other public sector areas as we have picked up the slack in mental health services and care home provision to pick two areas off the top of my head.

I'm glad I've still got a job, and I'm grateful that it's decent money, but whilst we might be cushioned from some of the financial effects of austerity, we also don't get the financial rewards of prosperity.  No end of year bonus, or reward for a profitable month.

 FactorXXX 03 Jun 2020
In reply to La benya:

> What I don't think is acceptable is the neighbours, who having been on furlough for the whole time have taken up weekday drinking and were sitting in the garden, shouting about and listening to music til about 11.30 last night.
> There has also been a massive increase in people camping on the beach, shitting and littering everywhere, presumably as they don't need to get back for work (above the normal abuse of the beach seen every summer).

Sounds like they're living the life of furlough... 

 Timmd 03 Jun 2020
In reply to FactorXXX: It strikes me that packing poo away could be the considerate thing to do on a beach, given how children can like to dig.

 Dave the Rave 03 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

Well said. I’m glad that I’ve got a steady job frontline with no financial perks. Perhaps this is how the country should be run to stop people whinging?

 fred99 04 Jun 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> If public sector workers are able to promote themselves up a couple of grades,  get mega pensions that they don't have to contribute to and can magically avoid paying tax on those pensions, why the hell didn't you get a job with the council? I would have done, if these imaginary perks were real.


Only council jobs ever available around here appear to be maternity cover or part time (due to the new mother deciding to become a housewife superstar).

 fred99 04 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> I've got a lot of sympathy for those in furlough who face an uncertain future, not to mention having suffered a 20% drop in income.

> To suggest that the banking crisis left the public sector unaffected is sheer nonsense though.  Financially we've had pay freezes on salary scales, pay freezes on annual payrises, and radical pension reform. The mass redundancies and "cheaper at any cost" that was sold as "reforming policing" have meant less of us, doing more for longer. In addition we've experienced first hand the effects of austerity in other public sector areas as we have picked up the slack in mental health services and care home provision to pick two areas off the top of my head.

> I'm glad I've still got a job, and I'm grateful that it's decent money, but whilst we might be cushioned from some of the financial effects of austerity, we also don't get the financial rewards of prosperity.  No end of year bonus, or reward for a profitable month.


The private sector had the same financial restraints, along with pretty well all sub-contractors and temporary staff losing their jobs overnight - not a very good chance of another job when there's a large number of you made unemployed in one foul swoop.

The "austerity" changes - were they not for POLITICAL purposes though, and not directly related to the banking crisis. Who knows what Johnson might try and slip in under the radar this time, blaming CV-19 (rather than Brexit or his own original intentions).

I was lucky at the banking crisis - had been made permanent (from working as a temp) just a few months earlier. As you say yourself, I was also glad I still had a job, grateful that it was sufficient to pay the bills (with a little bit left over), and am happy to assist my employers in this latest disaster, considering they bent over backwards to keep as many staff as possible in work in the last one.

 AJM 04 Jun 2020
In reply to spidermonkey09:

It's also worth noting that in reality a huge chunk of the newly issued debt is being matched by printed money from the bank of England.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/markets/market-notices/2020/apf-asset-purch...

Planned £200bn more gilt purchases with money created from thin air, at about the same time as it became apparent government borrowing was set to soar.

Sure, it's being purchased from the secondary market rather than directly funding the government, because printing of money to directly fund government activity would be terribly naughty. 

And of course we maintain the polite fiction that the debt will be sold back into the markets as they recover, in the same way that perhaps one day some of the gilts purchased in the last financial crisis might be offloaded back into the markets. But since that hasn't happened yet and were just hitting another crisis I won't be betting heavily against the bank still owning a chunk of it when I retire! And until then the treasury pays interest and principal to the bank, who either uses it to purchase new gilts to keep the notional the same or returns it back to the treasury. 

So I have a lot of sympathy for the idea a lot of it is "funny money" to one degree or another....


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