UKC

One day recently at work I wanted to buy something to eat and realised I had forgotten my wallet, so I started wondering if I want google pay on my phone as a backup. However, I have hesitated to set it up as I am concerned about the security etc. Is it really safe? What if I lose my phone? (I recently lost a phone in the Cairngorms where there is no signal so couldn't do the remote login thing to disable everything. I cancelled the Sim but I presume google pay info is on the phone rather than the Sim?) 

My main account is currently with Tesco, which doesn't work on Google pay, so it would only be a backup as it would be my business account on it.

Any thoughts or experiences of it? 

In reply to girlymonkey:

I have it set up on my phone. For a security aspect my phone has to be unlocked to use Google pay, so without my finger (which of they had my bank account would be the least of my worries). You are correct if you cancel your SIM the data is still on your phone, but if it is locked not really an issue.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I use it. I particularly liked it for work as it is far more secure than leaving my wallet in the unlocked cab of an ambulance. It is also one less thing to remember when leaving the house.

To unlock my phone requires either my face, a code or my finger print, my husband's knows the code so theoretically could use my Google pay, but I think I can trust him. 

As far as I know the spend limit is the same as contactless so there is a degree of protection with that too.

In reply to SAF:

I would be surprised if this was the case. It certainly isn't with Apple Pay these days and I now use it almost exclusively for all payments of any amount.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Clearly I haven't tried to spend enough money recently!!

In reply to girlymonkey:

I set Google Pay up on my phone under similar circumstances (I had filled my car with petrol and then realised I didn't have my purse) and now use it almost exclusively.

As others have said, it requires you to unlock your phone to use it, and I believe it requires you to set up a lock if you don't already have one.  Obviously, the more secure your lock, the more secure the app.

Given that someone stealing your phone is required to unlock or hack your phone to use it, I think it is probably more secure than a contactless card, which could of course just be picked up and used (albeit with a maximum transaction value). In reality, very few stolen phones are hacked, most are  just wiped and sold on. 

If you lose your phone, you can log into Google Pay using your Google login from any web browser and remove your cards very quickly, which makes them unavailable to the app on your phone. You can of course also cancel your cards.  Depending on how good your bank is at recognising and flagging unusual spending patterns, this could also give you another level of reassurance.

In reply to SAF:

No, there is no spend limit on Google Pay.  I've certainly filled up van from empty with diesel on it and that is definitely over the contactless limit!

In reply to SAF:

There is no limit on Google pay. Stores can set an upper limit if they wish. In Sainsbury's for example this is £999. In Waitrose it is £10,000. Go figure.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Stores/payment providers can set limits on both Apple and Google Pay and, if they do, then its generally to the contactless limit.

Google pay can be used without unlocking the phone (just waking it) but in those cases it will be restricted to the contactless limit and you only have a limited number of times before it needs unlocking. It also seems somewhat variable depending on the phone.

In reply to mondite:

Mine doesn't do that. I can't remember if that's a restriction that I set - if not it might be phone specific.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks for the reminder , I've just set up my new card with google pay.

And Awayyyyy we go !!!!!!!!

In reply to kathrync:

Mine has to be unlocked too. 

In reply to Dax H:

All of them do, it's part of the requirement.

It's more secure than even Chip and PIN, because as you enter the "PIN" on your own device it can't be snooped by a "doctored" PIN pad.  It even has requirements for what other unlock systems are acceptable, for instance you can face unlock a Oneplus device using a photo of the owner (as unlike the Apple ones it doesn't do it in 3D), so the "face unlock" isn't adequate, it asks for the PIN or fingerprint to be used as well.

You could argue that if it gets widespread enough conventional contactless could go away because it offers all the convenience of a contactless card with better security than Chip & PIN.

In reply to Neil Williams:

It isnt as per google "No unlock needed for smaller payments"

https://support.google.com/pay/answer/7644132?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&a...

Basically it can act as a contactless card with the accompanying restrictions or, when unlocked,it can go higher. However, as they note, some payment providers may apply different rules and I think both the version of android and also the phone comes into play.

In reply to Rob Kelly:

I know Waitrose is a bit pricey, but given that they don't sell e.g. tellies getting there would be challenging!

In reply to Neil Williams:

Have you seen their organics range?

More seriously I would guess they went for the same setting as the John Lewis stores.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Not all phones have the necessary NFC capability.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I would humbly suggest that you keep to using money as it seems to keep people more thoughtful over their  spending, modern tech seems to disassociate spending from the money.

If you wish to enable your phone for emergency spending if you forget your wallet, tuck a £5/£10 or £50 note in your phone case.

How secure is google pay, no idea, but this may give pause for thought https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/sep/13/sim-swap-is-on-the-rise-how-c...

In reply to girlymonkey:

Been using google pay for the last 2-3 years for nearly everything in person, never had a problem.

In reply to J1234:

Because cash is so secure that if you lose your wallet you lose all of its cash contents permanently?

The human is the weak link in any chain...

In reply to Neil Williams:

Been using Apple Pay almost exclusively since the start of lockdown. Avoids those times when contactless stops working until you do a chip and pin transaction, and no limit on spending.  Figure the less things i have to touch while out and about, the better these days. 

In reply to J1234:

Apart from some general sense of unease you might have about technology, that article is entirely irrelevant to Google Pay.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I tend to find if I use cash I spend less.

In reply to J1234:

Not a chance! Cash is out, I use cards normally. Even my wee local farm shop now has a card reader!

I don't have a phone case, I have a phone which is actually fit for purpose and is shock proof and waterproof

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks folks, sounds like it's worth a try. It can't be my main source though unless I move banks!

In reply to J1234:

I don't, but I do use Monzo, an app-based bank which gives me really good insights into my spending, far better than "I've spent £100 cash this week, best rein it in" but with no real idea of what I had spent it on.  It was a bit different back in the 90s when credit/debit card spending was a case of flashing the plastic and going "crikey" when the bill or statement arrived at the end of the month.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Use it for the first time this morning .

Impressive and easy.   

Although it would be faster if I could unlock my phone with my face , which I cannot do with a face mask on in shops.

Still a nice option .

In reply to J1234:

That was my thought too until I started using contact less and now Google pay. 

I always had cash on me but once you break a note the change just seems to melt away, digital payments means I'm only spending exactly what I need to spend. 

Plus I'm more thoughtful, knowing shops get charged for the transaction I'm not going to go in for a packet of crisps, I will do without. That's where a lot of my loose change went. 

In reply to Dax H:

The important things in life (rent, council tax etc) come out of the bank account on direct debit. So the only sum that matters is the number on my screen. Once it no longer appears on my screen, it doesn't exist. Cash is, therefore, like monopoly money. It's not real as it doesn't appear on my balance. I fritter it away on nothing. Such a rubbish way to try and keep track of things. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

Are you saying that anyone who uses any kind of case for their phone, has a phone that is not “fit for purpose”? 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Indeed, I am saying that the vast majority of phones made are not fit for purpose and the manufacturers know this! They don't want to make them robust enough to withstand normal life. You have to go out of your way to find ones which are designed to actually be usable in normal life and are therefore fit for purpose. It's one of my bugbears of modern life, built in obsolesence.

In reply to girlymonkey:

What phone do you have please? I'm thinking I should probably get a more robust phone.

In reply to Timmd:

Ulefone Armor 7e

In reply to Chive Talkin\':

You don't need to unlock your phone to use Google pay, just wake it up.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I was getting interested as I may need to buy another 'phone very soon, and I can see why you bought this 'phone, but I think that I would have considered the 7e's peer, the 7, as it has twice as much RAM. Then I realised that this 'phone is made in China, and I just will not currently buy this important device from the Chinese. Otherwise the write-ups on this 'phone are fairly good.

Being Chinese, I would suggest that, that also brings into question the overall security of data, even though the manufacturer is not the usual one for querying such concerns.

In reply to veteye:

Most phones are made in China. The ones which aren't are made in places with even fewer safeguards for their workers. If I'm going to buy something which is damaging for the environment etc then I'd best get one which will last well!

In reply to blackmountainbiker:

That's good to know.  

How does it know what account to use though ?

In reply to girlymonkey:

I use it all the time - I've got two hands and can only remember two things reliably and since the advent of mobile phones it's been "forget things roulette" between my phone, keys and wallet. Life has been more stable since I've been able to retire my wallet.

One word of caution, every now and again you find some place that cannot take smart phone payments annoyingly these tend to be garages.  For this purpose I still stash a bank card somewhere for backup.

Also you need an NFC capable phone - a lot of cheaper phones miss this out.

In reply to gravy:

My phone does have NFC, so ok on that front.

If I was going to use it for daily use I would need to change current account, so for now it will be a backup linked to my work account. I guess if I like it enough then I might change banks to use it more.

Garages seem like an annoying one not to take them, it's one of the few places that you pay after receiving the goods so it would make sense for them to take pretty much every form of payment possible!!

In reply to Chive Talkin\':

One is set as a default.... to use another you need to go in to the app and swupe across

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

That's what I'd hoped .

Cheers.

In reply to Chive Talkin\':

You set one account as a default - it will use that one unless you tell it otherwise.  To use something else you need to go into the app and select the one you want to use.

Note I have set mine up so I do have to unlock my phone.  It doesn't work for me if I just wake it up. It seems like this is either phone specific or something I have changed.  However, I assume the behaviour is similar.  To use my default account, I just unlock and hold my phone to the reader - for anything else I need to unlock, open the app, select what I want, and then use the reader.

In reply to girlymonkey:

How long has your Ulefone lasted, so far?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Probably a couple of years. I can't quite remember when I got it. I regularly answer it in the shower, it has been fully submerged on many occasions and frequently hits the deck. Sadly, it can't withstand my stupidity of losing it! So had to get a new one just recently due to that! Doh!

In reply to gravy:

Do you mean just because the garages don't do contactless, such as at the pay-the-pumps I have used so far, or for some other reason that applies only to phones and not to cards? I use Apple Pay. I don't know how it works but have supposed that when I do I am effectively using my debit card in contactless mode, and that the phone somehow makes the card reader think it is my card. 

I now almost exclusively pay for stuff in this way. 

Even the Taco Boys on the beach have a contactless card reader now. Not many people don't. Well, except the remaining butcher in my local, almost dead and almost ATMless high street, which proudly proclaims that it only takes cash.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I use google pay all the time. I specifically set it so that the phone has to be unlocked to pay, and even though it doesn't say so I've always needed to be in the app or with the latest android update bring up the card you want to use by holding the power button. So to use it so someone has to be able to unlock your phone. You can track, lock and wipe your android phone remotely if your phone is lost or stolen by logging into your google account on another computer.

For extra security link a credit card rather than a debit card.

In reply to mbh:

I mean that garages are the mostly likely point of failure for phone transactions in my experience. I've not tried my phone at a garage since lockdown but I had many instance of it not working at the counter before.  It's a pain in the arse because it's hard to put the petrol back!

In reply to mbh:

It uses tokenised payments. What that meas is that it gets your card number, does some cryptographic magic on it, sends it to apple, who then reverse the magic, and sent the payment request to your bank.

What this means is that if a bad guy copies the transaction, from the wire, they cant replay it or see card details. It is safer than entering your card details on a web site. We hear stories about cards being cloned from websites (see magecart). Once your card details are out there, they can be used by all, until the dodgy transactions are flagged. Tokenised payments are unique for each transaction and are time also limited.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Aside from it being tough and waterproof, what is your evidence of it not having (your words) "built in obsolescence"? Indeed what is your definition of "built in obsolescence"?

I have had my current phone for nearly three years, its predecessor did seem to weirdly go "faulty" for no reason, I don't know if that was a case of deliberate built-in obsolescence such as the manufacturer actually setting it up to start failing after a certain lifetime. Could be. I am intrigued at this claim that the Ulefone does not have any such built-in obsolescence, given that the claim seems to be untested so far. I may be in the market for a replacement soon, as my current phone is a company phone and I don't know how secure my job is. I've never heard of Ulefone. I've also never killed a phone through dropping it or getting it wet. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Even with cases and screen protectors, most people break or drown phones pretty frequently. My first smart phone. Lasted me about a month! I'd say for most people it's a pretty common occurrence. 

I guess I have no way of knowing yet about the obsolesence or otherwise of the software, but most phones are designed to break at the slightest hint of dampness or the suggestion that they might fall! The technology has been there for a long time to build them properly, so I think it's criminal that they don't. 

In reply to dread-i:

Interesting. Thanks.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I've been using Google Pay for around 4 years and could not live without it any more, especially when at work.

I don't carry money at work and going to a shop to buy lunch is great.

The largest bill I've paid so far is an emergency Vet bill when my dog got run over Out of Vet Hours. It was a bit strange paying £350 with my phone.

I find Google Pay very safe and secure.

However I don't like the tap-and-go with my debit card. Anybody can aquire my card and start spending.

In reply to SAF:

I've paid a £350 vet bill with my phone.

If the company, such as Tesco, does not have a limit mimicing contactless cards, then you can pay with as much money as is in your bank account.

In reply to girlymonkey:

What I find freaky is using an app to check my On-Line banking.

I can access my bank account with a finger print. Yet while I access the On-Line bank account web site, then I have to jump through all sorts of hoops.

One method takes less that a second, and the other method takes up to a minute and requires several bits of security information.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Get real. 

So Manufacturer X says "design this to break, because that will keep the customers loyal to Manufacturer X and they will spread the word that Manufacturer X makes good products". 

You talk some sense on these forums, but sometimes I just give up and have to abandon the topic. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Well they have purposely chosen not to build it to be robust enough to deal with life in pockets! They maybe haven't said "we aim for it to break in X amount of time", but they have opted NOT to make it last a long time. They know how to make a phone that can survive normal life and by choosing not to they have built in obsolescence! 

In reply to girlymonkey:

To answer one of your earlier remarks. Yes most phones are made in China but not designed in China. In order to put in some sort of covert surveillance facility into a phone you'd need to design it in. Thus there is a theoretically higher possiblity of a Chinese phone being nobbled than a non Chinese one.

Re robustness, your phone will be more robust because it is bigger and heavier. Something you are prepared to accept but the manufacturers take the view that most people want small and light. Even so a phone is designed to survive several drops from 2m onto a concrete surface, operate fully at any temperature between -40 and about 55 degrees centigrade, operate at 35 degrees centigrade with 95% humidity etc etc..

In reply to girlymonkey:

Whoever these nefarious "they" are, they're trying to meet other market demands such as super slim, wraparound screens etc. all at an acceptable price point. Your Ulefone (and many other tough phones on the market) seem to indicate that the choice is there for those who want it. 

For a couple of years I was happy with an iPhone 6 in a relatively inexpensive "LifeProof" branded case. Phones in cases is how this side-debate started, remember. You basically said that anyone with a phone in any kind of case, has bought something that is not fit for purpose. Essentially calling me (and many others) a total mug. Are you surprised that we aren't all worshipping you for showing us the light? My phone is in a "wallet case" because I like to basically use the phone as a main wallet, with a debit and credit card in the fold-out bit, and even some cash in a pocket there. It increases the bulk of the phone but I like that. 

In reply to Removed User:

It's ok, I'm on Facebook. I am sure I am fully surveyed anyway! 

Before I found tough phones, I had waterproof ones which were no heavier or bulkier than the standard ones. I then had to add cases which made them every bit as bulky as my current one and the screen still broke easily and rendered the waterproofing useless! Waterproofing alone would at least extend the life of many phones at no extra bulk. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I maybe responded more grumpily than I should have, but phones are awful for the environment and so to build them in such a way that they really don't withstand normal life really gets my back up. The acceptance that everyone will have a case for their phone comes from the acceptance that phones need cases to survive life, therefore the manufacturers are charging people a fortune for something which is not fit for purpose. 

Anyway, it all started with google pay, and it turns out that neither of my cards work on it! I had thought one would. So for now, that is not an option and I will just have to stick to using cards as normal. Maybe my bank account is no longer fit for purpose? 😜

In reply to girlymonkey:

I had a Nokia 5210, way way back when. 

I went to Water Swallet (a rarely-in-condition-for-ice-climbing) little waterfall in the Peak Districk for a Friday night bit of fun ice hacking , December 2010. Accidentally left the phone behind. It was found half submerged in melt water and returned to me 10 days later (I'd been in France for a bit, plus shenanigans with finding me as the owner. The finders kept it in a chest freezer because the alarm went off every morning for 10 days - battery life was great when the comms were disabled which happened when I reported it lost - and they could not unlock it, and the freezer was the best place to silence it). Great phone. Size of a Milky Way chocolate bar. Had Snake 2 on it. But it died not from water or impact but just old age. It got slower and slower and the battery life deteriorated.

Do you think "THEY" (in this case Nokia deliberately designed and built in such obsolescence, even though the phone was physically robust? Just trying to clarify your conspiracy theory about evil mobile phone companies. 

I hope your Ulefone gives you plenty of reliable joy for the next decade.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Airports without climbing walls. Fit for purpose?

FWIW I think you talk a good amount of sense on here and that's why it really stands out when you make a bit of a wally of yourself. I don't mean to "pick on you", quite the opposite - I have respect for you  

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I had an old samsung which went through a washing machine cycle and came out still switched on! The old phones were great!

I am under no illusions that phones will eventually give up the ghost, but that doesn't need to be the first time it falls out of your pocket! Phone manufacturers know what phones go through, and make no apparent effort to mitigate it. It's not a conspiracy theory and it's not just mobile phone companies. Appliances which are designed so that you can't open them and repair them or buy spare parts are just as bad

In reply to girlymonkey:

And the question is...why isn't the whole world just using Nokia 5210s to this day? You could even use them as walkie-talkies. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

This is total crap. They are making effort. You’ve got one. Apple have been working toward IP67 rating for a long time, with no ports. It can seem like there has been a backward step with screens that are harder to replace but they are replaceable, just takes more skill (therefore money, upsetting the consumer). But do you think that the well established ceramics giant Corning (makers of Gorilla glass and probably the substrate for the catalytic convertor or DPF in your automobile) are deliberately making more breakable and irreparable glass? Having done business with Corning, I’d guess “no” 

In reply to girlymonkey:

Does Google pay?

How do I sign up?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Actually I am not sure which IP rating they are aiming for, but they definitely want waterproofing and robustness