UKC

Should there be specific winter government guidance to encourage shops, public work spaces to ventilate/open doors/window for 3 times a day, say 9am, midday and 4pm to counter this awful habit that happens in UK of not opening a window from October to Spring! Could this help with Covid 19? Ventilation doesn't drop temperature of a room that much if done in short bursts. 

If the ventilation does not drop the room temperature much (in the cooler months), it has not displaced much of the air in the room.

Is there some science to suggest this would help reduce infection?

I believe there is science to suggest that good airflow reduces infection quite significantly (hence being outside being pretty safe). Whether it would make a difference if only done 3 times a day for a short time, I would be less convinced. 

I am trying to open all windows for 10 mins or so just before leaving work, so we at least get a flush through with clean air once daily.

That said I like fresh air, so even in normal times will have the window open whenever possible. 

How would you see it helping and what about those places without windows.

Anecdotally from speaking with a couple of parents they are quietly confident presents of scarves will be far more popular for the schoolkids this year.

Leaving work is probably a bit pointless as by the next day most of the virus will have fallen I think. 

Maybe so, but opening the windows for 10 minutes at any other time of day would probably get me lynched. (Everyone else in the office is nesh)

Given the serious lack of knowledge about this virus, I am happy to try things which have no proven benefits (but are known to not be harmful) in the hope that they may be of some help.

Leaving work for the day is never pointless

Could you do it sneakily at lunch time while people go out to eat? 

Or maybe play a game of subtly sneaking a window open a crack, and a bit more etc and see how long it takes them to notice! (I once had to do that in a sweltering hot hostel room where my husband and I ended up in with some Spanish people who were baffled at all the Scots in shorts! They had cranked the heating right up and hermetically sealed the room!)

I have a mutiny coming at our office. By putting a cage door on a mag lock on our outside office door and keeping the real door open and all the windows in the 3 offices open a bit we get a great air flow but the weather is changing. 

The way I see it though is air flow is vital so the option is work from home or wear more clothes. 

You'd probably be better off with decent HEPA filters in the aircon.

The trains in Japan are all using open window ventilation based on studies using quite sophisticated modelling, I have no idea where you'd find the data though, maybe translate and do a video search for the computer modelling.

How it's working I don't know, but they've had an impressive ride considering weak leadership and the size, demographics and density of the population. Those trains are pretty packed.

You’d have to do it more often. Say for 5 minutes every quarter of an hour. 
 

I think people will just need to get used to being cold for a few months. 
 

Lower the stats so you’re not trying to heat the whole world when the widows are open. 

Depends what the Aircon is. 
 

It would be unusual to have full recirculating air con 100% of the time. So would be simpler to stop the recirculating mode and just have full fresh air. 

You are the person who advised Donald Trump to reduce testing capacity to get lower infection rates, and I claim my £5.

You’re not trying to wind up wintertree are you?;

Do you perchance originate from a German speaking country?  They are obsessed with lueften.

Mind you, we're bad at it over here like you say.  Loads of houses have black mould all over their bathroom, and that's simply because they never open the window in winter so it stays damp.  I kept having a go at my lodger over that.

When I lived in Germany and ate sauerkraut regularly I too was obsessed with lüften. Perhaps the solution is to introduce sauerkraut to the British diet...

No not German origins. British born,  But spent years in outdoor Australia and returned to notice things just a bit more acutely through having experienced a change. 

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/uk-could-urged-keep-windows-060018032.html

Well, I could have predicted it!

I'm told that for schools in Baden Württemberg it's masks on outside classroom, greater spacing and windows open every 20 mins by law.

My 15mins x 3 was random based on housekeeping instinct at home. 

Is the opening every  20 mins based on a  German scientific model done  somewhere for groups ????

The 20 mins is based on nothing. It's actually every 45mins maximum. And masks outside was binned 2 days ago as long as the 1m50 seperation is maintained.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/30/germans-embrace-fresh-air-to-...

Looks like Angela Merkel is into "Luften"  mentioning it in September publicly.

You saying Si is a soft southern shandy drinker

I was thinking more the two Es, both moan at the slightest bit of a draught. 

#BoulderingMakesYouSoft

Err I know, I live in Germany and have two kids in school.

Nobody in this country  {UK}  officially addressed this particular aspect in the UK  before winter. Maybe they can get it done by Monday!!

Ten minutes with Google will tell you there are guidelines from 2018 regarding ventilation and CO2 levels in schools and guidance notes for schools regarding Covid ventilation in place for months.

Schools may have rules, - not shops and that is another issue in the UK . Many have  door frontages onto the street , especially small shops . And there are a lot of those. Supermarkets have frontages and could open their doors more frequently in winter,- the size affecting the efficacy,[My Aldi is small, Tesco is large} but still something is better than nothing. People are vulnerable shopping.

It just all needs highlighting much much more in winter by the government  messaging  system at this time during a pandemic.

Our public slogan is Hands, Face , Space- could include ventilate.

But ventilation in shops is covered in the Government guidance since July.

Something is wrong because I walk into stuffy shops { is the guideline  good enough for a winter pandemic?] and Jenny C works in a space she feels needs more ventilation, in winter...... Yes ,there were ideas in July during the summer but it is now winter and the doors have shut- and the windows in some work places, it seems. 

Just read the guideline

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5eb9703de90e07082fa57ce0/wor...

"Keeping doors and windows open if possible."-  a quote from above-- very weak , because "if possible" means people dispute about being cold in a room and hence, for some, it is not possible. Should be more demanding regulation in a pandemic with a respiratory type of virus. 

Keeping doors and windows open if possible
Sounds pretty clear to me. What do you suggest it should say?
For completeness, here's the relevant part of the document:
 

And much higher up it tells us that if HSE or the local authority isn't satisfied you are following the guidelines they can enforce them and penalise the offender. In other words, as usual with HSE/public health guidelines, the inspector decides what's "possible".

 The issue of ventilation in schools and shops is adequately covered by existing legislation, it's just Margie doesn't know that so assumes the government is completely stupid.

I wouldn't say our office is badly ventilated. Like many we don't have air conditioning, but do have several large windows which when open create a really good airflow.

The issue we do have is the age old argument of what constitutes a comfortable temperate. Even pre covid, on all but the coldest of days I like a window kinked open for fresh air. Others prefer a hot stuffy office with radiators on full blast. 

How many more ways can we think up to use CV as a vehicle for environmental destruction?

- Face masks / single use PPE - hundreds of millions of single use plastic items from CV will be in the sea for the next 400 years or so. 

- Re-usable face masks - apparently we have to turn on the washing machine every day on a high heat to clean our masks (high energy usage, unnecessary detergent discharged into the water system / sea).

- Keep all our windows open so that we need to burn more fossil fuels to keep our homes / workspaces warm

- Get in cars / not use public transport. It goes on...

Sorry to be honest but I do not see the environment as acceptable collateral in the battle against CV - we are a pest species afterall.

No, I think the guideline is inadequate, too subjective, not specific enough and having an inspector go to every shop/ workplace to assess is impractical -so tighter, more specific guidelines in the first place would ensure greater proximity to the requirement of ventilation than the wishy washy interprative generalisations of the current guideline. Maybe times to open  and amount of time to open specified  to nail it down more and achieve a greater compliance with the spirit and aim  of the guideline. People read these guidelines and still have very little specific understanding of what to do in winter, in a respiratory pandemic

CIBSE have 4 guides, and one of them is a 26 page document! How much more guidance do you want?

https://www.cibse.org/coronavirus-covid-19/emerging-from-lockdown

Washing a face mask is just a matter of sticking it in with the rest of the laundry, no extra loads needed.  I already wash towels sheets and undies on a hot wash for hygiene anyway.  

So my local shop and my local cafe has direction in practical terms as to what to do  from that document? 

What do you think the guidance should say then?

That's stupid, every shop is different so the government would have to asses each one individually. The current system covers all shops, if anyone thinks the ventilation isn't adequate they should notify the responsible authority.

Yes. Around about page 15 of the second document. 

I remember Nicola Sturgeon saying publicly in summer all shops with a street frontage should have their doors open. Everyone followed that, at least in Inverness. That isn't a strict interpretation of the guideline but it is a very real effective approach in practice. Winter time needs the same practicality and some approximation of times and length in general terms could probably be reached with the input of scientific modelling as a point of reference. Of course it has to be general but at the moment it is very hit and miss with the bias towards lack of ventilation in very many public spaces.

And although strictly a notification to the correct authority is one way, I suspect the current situation would result in an overwhelming of that authority with the  numbers of requests , if we were to resort to this system in the first place.

My friend does sports massage. She opens all doors and windows between patients. 
 

All we are trying to do is reduce risk and speed of spread to try and prevent the vulnerable catching it and putting pressure on the hospitals. We cannot stop it entirely. 

The virus is the same as it was in summer. If shop doors were to stay open then, they should stay open now! Boost the local economy - buy a jacket!!

Well either nobody spoke about it publicly before the winter or they did, which is it?

If Ms Sturgeon or yourself thinks opening the doors to the average superstore or department store three times a day or whatever is going to achieve anything then both of you are barmy. That's why the guidelines are specific; as much as possible.

Well, that seems to redress the lack of ventilation. And it is probably more accessible and easily understood information for people to apply than  page 15 of the guidelines. Better than what we've got now in the majority of shops which  shut the doors all day. It was of course advisory, not law,  in summer and well complied with because people were warm, It could be advisory again and see what happens.

might be easier to do in south of  England where temperatures are  up yo 17 degrees at the moment- the Highlands is between 8-10 degrees at the moment.

Your point about air conditioning is pretty relevant. I was in town {Inverness} yesterday. The brand new Eastgate shopping centre has air conditioning and you can feel the air circulation but the high street shops are old, Victorian housing stock and not updated at all. The only  ingress of fresh air is through  the doors and they are firmly shut. We know the load of the virus is important. The larger the load a person is exposed to, the greater the severity of the illness. Masks are not 100% effective.  People feeling cold is over -riding the unseen danger of viral build-up in small high street shops.