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Grant Shaps

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 Pete Pozman 24 May 2020

Listening to him this morning I noticed how he kept saying "That is not my understanding." 

It actually doesn't mean the same as "No" or " I don't know."; it can actually mean anything. Possible meanings: "I understand in a different way." ie a way that is different from the truth; or "That's not what I've been told" ie I'm not lying to you, somebody else is.

Similarly the use of the word "inaccurate" in answer to the report concerning cummings' whereabouts. Was he in Barnard Castle? It could mean "Not Barnard Castle" (perhaps Egglestone Abbey, but you didn't say that). The inaccuracy could refer to any part of the question.

Just heard another: "You're pushing me into an area beyond my expertise..."

And: "It's a question of doing the right thing." sic

There are so many examples of this slick lie-speak. It should be a subject in its own right in schools. 

Whatever; it makes me feel sick to my stomach.

 rubble 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

I got the distinct impression that "this is what I was told to say and I will talk all around it if you want but, this is what I was told to say" (whether he believed it is another matter)

Post edited at 13:14
 Jon Stewart 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Well, it worked for Prince Andrew...

 Ciro 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

He is a very accomplished liar.

There were a couple of times he could barely contain a grin at the absurdity of what he was saying, and a few times he defensively crossed his arms, but for the most part he managed to look pretty relaxed whilst not only lying to the whole country, but also knowing that we all know he's lying.

The brass neck on display is not to be admired, but is quite astonishing none the less.

 Kalna_kaza 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

It's all very 1984 / Orwellian double speak. Trying to rewrite history or twist reality to fit the narrative of the day. It's scary stuff and Cummings et al have been doing it for years , just this time people from all backgrounds have called them out on it.

Anyone who has lost someone close to them and not had the chance to say goodbye just isn't buying the BS being sold right now.

Johnson is a coward, he'll declare victory for "defeating" the virus, taking the UK out of the EU and he'll leave the mess for someone else to clean up. Most of the cabinet have burnt a lot of credibility through defending a lost cause, even the chancellor who has so far looked pretty good must know backing the wrong horse isn't going to wash well with the public.

*Edit - right now, not write now

Post edited at 13:37
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 Rob Exile Ward 24 May 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

1984 is exactly right. And there's a highly unsettling trend towards a wholesale  acceptance of authoritarianism; we're putting up with rules even though quite a lot of them make no sense. 'Guidelines' seem to morph into 'rules' without demur.

And everyone is getting infected. 4 or 5 months ago MR teams explicitly disavowed any right to warn people off mountains. Today they tell us to stay away, and we all nod our heads that they're the right people to do so. (No disrespect to the MR teams who have my boundless admiration and respect, but anyone LESS at risk from CV has to be  difficult to imagine.)

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 mik82 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

He has form on this

He had a second career as "Michael Green", a "millionaire web marketer" and repeatedly denied this while an MP

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/15/grant-shapps-admits-he-had...

 Robert Durran 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> I got the distinct impression that "this is what I was told to say and I will talk all around it if you want but, this is what I was told to say" (whether he believed it is another matter)

I wonder what his options were. Go out there and lie as instructed or resign? 

OP Pete Pozman 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

I was musing that we could have a grammar/dictionary of these lie tropes which need to be recognised by all; like  kennings and  stock epithets in Old Norse sagas and Homeric epics. So we can establish  a valid collective response: "Oh right, this man is lying to us."

 rubble 24 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

...that's not my understanding ...  

 deepsoup 24 May 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

>  even the chancellor who has so far looked pretty good must know backing the wrong horse isn't going to wash well with the public.

The chancellor who was put there quite recently, by Dominic Cummings perhaps, after the previous chancellor was forced out of the job.  By Dominic Cummings.

 Robert Durran 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> ...that's not my understanding ...  

How do you think it works then?

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 rubble 24 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> How do you think it works then?

I'm not sure, but it seems to be made up on the hoof ... bring out some of the cabinet for defensive support then, when more crap hits the fan, pin it all one one person to try and justify what he understands the circumstances to be.

Con. MP Steve Baker of the 1922 Committee (among others), is worried about the damage to the Party (no mention about the damage to the country if we all go off message and please ourselves as Cummings would appear to have done) so I suppose I really have no idea how the machinations of the Conservative Party are working.  

Perhaps the Prime Minister and can come out and explain it all

Post edited at 14:12
 elsewhere 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> Perhaps the Prime Minister and can come out and explain it all

Would that be Johnson the invisible coward? No. He won't be seen.

 Robert Durran 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> I'm not sure, but it seems to be made up on the hoof ... bring out some of the cabinet for defensive support.

Yes, but I wonder what happens if a member of the cabinet says sorry, I'm not going to go out there and defend the indefensible.

 rubble 24 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, but I wonder what happens if a member of the cabinet says sorry, I'm not going to go out there and defend the indefensible.

... yes, sorry I overlooked that didn't I.  Will need to ask Dom ... or the PM ... or the 1922 Committee ...

Seriously (?) though, it does make you wonder what it would take for Cabinet Ministers to display a bit of decency and do the right thing ... who knows who has what to use as leverage over whom.

In the meantime, let's stock up on the popcorn (other snacks are available) and wait for the next thrilling instalment of this developing situation ...

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 Jon Stewart 24 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, but I wonder what happens if a member of the cabinet says sorry, I'm not going to go out there and defend the indefensible.

This is what I'm hoping. Given the thirst for blood, it's becoming self-interest to break ranks. Looks at least a little bit like a government unravelling...

 Ian W 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> ... yes, sorry I overlooked that didn't I.  Will need to ask Dom ... or the PM ... or the 1922 Committee ...

> Seriously (?) though, it does make you wonder what it would take for Cabinet Ministers to display a bit of decency and do the right thing ... who knows who has what to use as leverage over whom.

> In the meantime, let's stock up on the popcorn (other snacks are available) and wait for the next thrilling instalment of this developing situation ...

The last known example was Sajid Javed.

 deepsoup 24 May 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> The last known example was Sajid Javed.

That was the last known example of a member of the cabinet attempting to stand up to Dominic Cummings, but I'm not so sure it counts as a display of "a bit of decency".  Perhaps it was the last known display of a bit of self-respect.

 Jon Stewart 24 May 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> The last known example was Sajid Javed.

I'm not certain that was an example of displaying decency, more a matter of personal pride?

 Jon Stewart 24 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

Snap!

 Ian W 24 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart: and Deepsoup:

> I'm not certain that was an example of displaying decency, more a matter of personal pride?

Was I giving him too much credit?

At least it confirmed post election what happens if you show a bit of decency, self respect, backbone or whatever.

"Go on then sonny boy, off you f**k."

 PPP 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Imagine knowing someone is in wrong (morally, legally or both) and you can't just say that out loud. 

I mentioned this in another thread, but my guess is there's others who are known to break the lockdown rules and they are just all stuck in this together. What do you do then? 

 profitofdoom 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> ......It should be a subject in its own right in schools......

It is a subject, but not in schools. Just Google "Statement Analysis", and you can find some interesting (IMO) cases 

 Tringa 24 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

At present we have, I think, all ministers either saying nothing about Cummings or supporting him.

If Cummings does resign I wonder how long it will be before we have the same ministers appearing on TV saying, "It was the right thing to do."

Dave

 Rob Exile Ward 24 May 2020
In reply to Tringa:

'how long it will be before we have the same ministers appearing on TV saying, "It was the right thing to do."

At least several seconds.

 Robert Durran 24 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

> In the meantime, let's stock up on the popcorn (other snacks are available) and wait for the next thrilling instalment of this developing situation ...

Been announced that Johnson is doing the 5pm briefing,

 rubble 24 May 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Been announced that Johnson is doing the 5pm briefing,

... and Dominic has been in No 10 all afternoon schooling the PM in what to say ...

 wercat 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

My jaw did drop and I exclaimed out loud a couple of months or more ago when I heard on R4 this man Shats saying that it was his understanding (him being a big man and all, so let's tug our follocks as he speaks) that the UK was doing MORE TESTING than any country except China and Italy.

It Buggers Belief that we have a gang of krimis in charge.  A true Breakshit government of fools and liars

(Germany and S Korea were in the news for testing at the time)

OH, and it is interesting how the rules were only for the "Guidance" of Cummings but were relayed to us unambiguously as "Instructions", "the Law" or "Regulations" as we are the Rule Takers now, a nation of Rule-Takers created by the party that was going to prevent Britain being a "Rule Taker" and make it a "Rule Maker".  But not for some priviileged and rich entitled politicians and acolytes, incubi et succubi &cetera

Post edited at 17:16
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 Darron 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Am I being naive in believing that glory awaits the politician who treats the public with respect and who is scrupulously honest and insists his ministers do likewise?

 mondite 24 May 2020
In reply to Darron:

> Am I being naive in believing that glory awaits the politician who treats the public with respect and who is scrupulously honest and insists his ministers do likewise?


Sadly I suspect so. There doesnt seem to be any downside to being caught lying. So someone who has a more relaxed approach to the truth is likely to win out since even if caught lying it doesnt really hurt.

 alastairmac 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Is the UK really so beaten and supine that it now that accepts a Prime Minister that shows his face once every couple of weeks during a humanitarian crisis...and then shamelessly lies and insults every citizen that he's been elected to represent?

 deepsoup 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Here's a rarity - John Crace on a Sunday.  No doubt a few folk on here will enjoy his take on this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/24/catching-the-travel-bug-cu...

 Bacon Butty 24 May 2020
In reply to alastairmac:

> Is the UK really so beaten and supine that it now that accepts a Prime Minister that shows his face once every couple of weeks during a humanitarian crisis...and then shamelessly lies and insults every citizen that he's been elected to represent?


I don't believe we are, but what the f*ck can we do?

Forget your petitions and booing on your doorstep, do you think they could care less?!

There has to be a way to get rid of them.

 gimmergimmer 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

That's spot on. Interesting! George Orwell in the modern world.

baron 24 May 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

> I don't believe we are, but what the f*ck can we do?

> Forget your petitions and booing on your doorstep, do you think they could care less?!

> There has to be a way to get rid of them.

You’ll have to wait until the next general election.

 MG 24 May 2020
In reply to baron:

We don't. What's needed is sufficient people to care about the lies, incompetence and corruption. The tories wouldn't wait to lose an election. Currently too many people accept the populist authoritarianism. If that changes, and this episode may not be sufficient, one or both of Cummings and Johnson will depart. 

 DancingOnRock 24 May 2020
In reply to wercat:

There are pages of drivel on this forum about whether the guidance is guidance and whether the law is law. 
 

The guidance isn’t law, it is guidance on how to interpret the law. It always has been. 

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 DancingOnRock 24 May 2020
In reply to Pete Pozman:

The problem comes when your boss tells you to make a presentation and you know you’re going to get grilled on things that you can’t answer. You either resign or you do the best you can do. 

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baron 24 May 2020
In reply to MG:

> We don't. What's needed is sufficient people to care about the lies, incompetence and corruption. The tories wouldn't wait to lose an election. Currently too many people accept the populist authoritarianism. If that changes, and this episode may not be sufficient, one or both of Cummings and Johnson will depart. 

 

Unfortunately there are far too many people who don’t agree with what Cummings did but don’t see it as anything more than a distraction.

One forum I visit even has it down as a media conspiracy.

Even if Boris and Cummings depart there’s a long, long way to go before the Conservatives lose power.

 Darron 24 May 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> There are pages of drivel on this forum about whether the guidance is guidance and whether the law is law. 

> The guidance isn’t law, it is guidance on how to interpret the law. It always has been. 

That’s all very well but I distinctly remember Boris, when announcing the lockdown, emphatically said it was not guidance it was an “instruction”. I wanted to help and protect my fellow citizens so did not see family and friends as a result. No hugs from grandkids, no climbs, local exercise only etc, etc. Don’t want a medal for this - most folk did the same. If I didn’t do the right thing I would expect to be held to account. Cummings should be too.

Trouble is if Cummings goes Boris would be Emu without Rod Hull.

 wintertree 24 May 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> There are pages of drivel on this forum about whether the guidance is guidance and whether the law is law. 

 
There are now solicitors questioning if the law is law as statements from the attorney general and the prime minister re: Cummings have cast significant uncertainty over the interpretation of the law to the point where 14,000 fines under them could be challenged.  

There’s certainly some drivel from one poster who tried in about 18 different posts to insult me into accepting the basis for the restrictions whilst pointing at the wrong act until off duty came along to show the relevant section of the approaches act...

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 wintertree 24 May 2020
In reply to Darron:

> Trouble is if Cummings goes Boris would be Emu without Rod Hull.

It’d be interesting to see who Cummings’ real bosses parachute in to replace him though, although at this point it’s hard to see Cummings going without Boris.  Whose next in line for the puppet strings?

 alastairmac 24 May 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

In Scotland we didn't vote for this government of spivs, cheats and liars. So I hope and trust that this will propel us towards an overwhelmingly decisive election in 2021 with an explicit mandate for independence at the centre of the campaign, followed by a swift move to open negotiations on independence. Enough is enough. I hope the people of England and Wales vote them into oblivion at the first opportunity. 

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In reply to alastairmac:

> In Scotland we didn't vote for this government of spivs, cheats and liars.

Neither did lots of people in England....

 LakesWinter 25 May 2020
In reply to alastairmac:

And in 2017 enough Scots did to give Theresa enough seats to power share with the DUP. So scots are not entirely guilt free

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 AdrianC 25 May 2020
In reply to alastairmac:

I hope the people of England and Wales vote them into oblivion at the first opportunity.

Quite a lot of them tried.  Maybe they were hoping for some help from voters north of the Scottish border.

 Jon Stewart 25 May 2020
In reply to AdrianC:

> I hope the people of England and Wales vote them into oblivion at the first opportunity.

I don't expect to be waiting for an election. This lot have got to go so that someone else can deal with coronavirus.

 AdrianC 25 May 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Sorry - that part was me quoting alastairmac - I forgot to change the font.

But agreed - this bumbling is a disaster for the country.

 DancingOnRock 25 May 2020
In reply to wintertree:

There were no insults. I’m not sure why you weren’t able to read the whole act yourself and find it. Maybe you were deliberately trying not to find it for the sake of argument? 
 

This forum is full of nonsense. 

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 wintertree 25 May 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> There were no insults. I’m not sure why you weren’t able to read the whole act yourself and find it. Maybe you were deliberately trying not to find it for the sake of argument? 

 
Because it wasn’t in the act you kept confusingly referring to with jumbled references, other than an opaque sentence that could possibly have been applied.  It was in the other act off duty pointed me to.  The other act being the one 14,000 fines have been issued under.   

 wercat 25 May 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> There are pages of drivel on this forum about whether the guidance is guidance and whether the law is law. 

> The guidance isn’t law, it is guidance on how to interpret the law. It always has been. 


your authority for this?

Case law or statute?

Post edited at 12:56
 DancingOnRock 25 May 2020
In reply to wercat:

The fact that the guidance and the law are separate documents. Which we’ve done to death here. The guidance is how to interpret the law under certain circumstances. 
 

For instance - the section that has created more threads and more debate than any other is the part that says you may leave your house for a brief period of exercise and that you should stay local. I wouldn’t even want to go back and count how much of that there is. Everyone knows what the point of that part is, yet everyone pretends they don’t, many trying to justify climbing ‘local’ hills. 
 

Memories are short. 

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