UKC

My wife has just taken her Life in the UK test which was possibly going to be the first stage in getting British Citizenship but also part of her 'Settled Status' test. Let's start from the first obvious thing that as someone who has dedicated her working life to the UK education system for the last 29 years the very thought she should have to do this is incredibly offensive.

However, her description of what just took place is truly shocking. We were aware of the utterly awful questions, many of which I hadn't a hope of answering, but also futile nonsense like Britain has a a proud and illustrious history - true or false? But it was the whole circumstances of what took place that were terrible. 

It was run by Learndirect, which is a subsidiary of PSI - https://www.psionline.com/en-gb/company/about-us/ - who are no doubt making a packet for their shareholders on this one. The staff were universally unfriendly, the building a tiny wreck of a place (don't want PSI spending too much money on facilities) and the atmosphere was one of incredible hostility. Henriette was searched extensively, had to turn her pockets inside out during the test, had her ears searched, was told to let her hair down so they could feel around in that and wasn't allowed to wear her glasses. 

In the end, having passed the test, she was given a shoddy piece of paper which is apparently essential but looked like an A4 print out to me. This means that she is now qualified to apply for British citizenship which will cost £2000 more. We have no intention of taking this any further.

How low has this country sunk?

Alan

FWIW, these test centres are rubbish whatever tests you do - I've had similar experiences doing professional exams for work (though not being told not to have my ears searched[1], or wear my glasses, which is ridiculous and probably an open-shut disability discrimination case if she felt so minded).

[1] This is probably not as stupid as it sounds - some people probably *are* using hidden earpieces...

The whole 'hostile environment' is utterly abhorrent, the affect it has had on so many people, truly shocking.

We can only hope that somewhere down the line the chickens come home to roost, and the people to conceived and implemented it get their just deserts - though I am not holding my breath,

Chris

Well yes, but that kind of atmosphere almost promotes the desire to cheat. That and the fact that you (assuming you are British) and I would probably not pass this test of Britishness and neither would any of the Farage fans in Clacton.

Alan

Boo! That's what I have got to look forward to, too. Yes, we went through some of these questions and some are just ludicrous! Particularly those pertaining to British 'culture', e.g. who played the role of xyz in Coronation street in 1989. Honestly?

And the money they want for those tests, outrageous.

Very low indeed but I fear we've some way to go yet before we can turn it around.

jk

Have you got the Living in Britain test handbook? Talk about re-writing history!

Apparently we granted independence to India because the wars on the north-west frontier had become a drain on resources and that there was an orderly transition from empire to commonwealth.

... cough, er, was it 1 or 2 million people who died during partition?

Alan

This is so depressing. Why am I reminded of the Khmer Rouge, checking people's noses for the red marks that show they wore glasses so might be able to read, and are therefore not fit to live in the new stone age being created?

It's David Blunkett's bad pub quiz. A shit idea, but a good money-go-round.

But never fear, whatever the variety of government, tests set by government servants, whilst perhaps not quite so ludicrous, are always dreary, unfriendly experiences. I've done a few.

It's a hoop. You've just gotta jump through it.

It's certainly shoddy treatment, compounded by stupid questions. Britain has a relatively short history - I think it came into existence in the late 1600s or early 1700s as a legal entity, or whatever the right phrase is. As for that history being illustrious - did they ask your wife if she could spell "Amritsar", "Partition" or even "Balfour Declaration"?

Probably not.

Thanks a lot for the detailed report, very illuminating and I am really sorry to read about what your wife went through. And the "staff were universally unfriendly .... the atmosphere was one of incredible hostility"? Shameful

I'm very glad your wife passed the test. A friend of a friend from Hungary, who works in a role towards opening access to higher education in a part of Yorkshire for working class white people and ethnic minorities in an area where there seem to be barriers, had to take the same test and also passed. She talks very sympathetically/knowledgeably about the need to 'know how to talk' in higher education towards networking and getting ahead, and is an asset to this country. 

Currently the government is saying it won't investigate any impropriety which may have taken place during the referendum.... 

Just to reassure a bit Heike, she has just asked me some more questions and they weren't all that hard, there was nothing about Coronation Street and there were quite a few give-aways like 'what date is Christmas Day?' - obviously aiming to trip up the non-christians that one!

Alan

''Britain has a a proud and illustrious history - true or false?''

What kind of question is this question anyway, though? It would depend on what parts of history one is talking about. 

It is shameful and embarrassing that we have sunk to treating our family,friends and colleagues like this. 

It's a trick question. If you say 'false'...you have to pay for a re-sit

Hahaha! Interesting interpretation.

Yes, we have got the book. Some questions are very easy, i.e. things like "if you have been arrested, the police have the right to immediately send you to jail, give you some punishment or you have the the right to consult with a lawyer and will be seen at a court of law",  others are really difficult, like who "Who returned to the the throne in 1660" Yes, I could hazard a guess, but if you are not a history buff you are quite out there! 

Did anybody else read the first 7 words and think "Oh shit this is sad"...? Quite relieved when I carried on reading!

Or the Germans perhaps as Christmas day in Germany is the 24th! Hahaha

Yes, the UK Test must have been even worse than we feared!

Thought a bit more about this. Using earpieces for what exactly? Only the person taking the test can see the questions and it is done in silence.

Alan

Completely agree with you Alan. I had a look through the book that tests you on British Citizenship. If it weren't for the fact I was born here I wouldn't get in. Utter nasty nonsense

On a related note, my wheelchair using friend recently had a PIP/DLA type interview ( details don't really matter). Obligatory interview. Dilapidated building. 3rd floor. No lift. It went downhill from there. The hostile environment and austerity and institutional incompetence/ indifference are horribly, callously intertwined

Just on this:

Last year I took a test for a CSCS card (necessary for working on building sites) and the experience was much the same, including the searches. The same test centre is also used for things like the 'written' test associated with a UK driving licence.

Yes, a member of my family has had to go through the hostile environment. Despite being a native speaker of English, she speaks no other language, she had to sit an English test. She was forced to postpone her wedding because the registrar required some new certificate at the last moment and we had to find over £60000 to put in a savings account for her and spend several thousand on an immigration lawyer to ensure she jumped through every hoop and presented all the right pieces of paper. The system is set up so it is easy to fail.

While each of the requirements sound reasonable in the abstract they are applied in an unfriendly, unhelpful and incompetent manner which left me feeling ashamed that my country would treat decent people in such a way.

I don't disagree.  FWIW, it's silly for IT exams, too.  Nobody in the IT industry ever works closed-book - there's always a Google tab there.

To give hints based on practice questions?

It's far fetched and petty, but it's also *possible*.

Despicable. Sorry you’re going through that. 

We'd come to a place to be very proud of, in being a country in which people from anywhere from the middle east and France (as examples which come to mind) have said they felt freer to be themselves and to be an individual, with a lot of a tolerance of difference and what have you, but the path towards that has definitely had some exploitation of other countries and peoples along the way. 

Not really. There are hundreds of possible questions so the person talking in your ear would never know what you are looking at. You could mumble to yourself into a microphone, but it would be much less hassle to watch for people doing that than all the frisking that goes on.

Let's face it, the frisking is just part of the hostile environment.

Taking the glasses off has got to be wrong.

By the way, the Australians - courtesy of Barry Humphries - had all of this sorted out in a much better way years ago. See youtube.com/watch?v=8PfDro1UGUo&

Terrible.

Yes, an unhelpful and incompetent company which has a UK subsidiary but the parent company are based in California. So UK tax payers are funding despicable tests designed to make the UK feel unwelcoming, with the profit going to share holders in the USA.

Lovely woman that Teresa May!

She was asked if she needed them to read. When she said no, they were taken off her although the person did closely inspect them for something - camera maybe, Tom Cruise Mission Impossible computer screen thing?

And if one were an historian what historiography one applied

Yes, the people planning things would have probably pondered about the questions being recorded via hidden camera for others. 

Ugh.  So sorry to hear about this.

Low enough that it shames us all, but I fear it hasn't bottomed out yet.

Your wife's experience is unfortunately is rather on the most benign end of the scale.

Thousands of people have been wrongfully deported, wrongfully detained (sometimes for years without trial), wrongfully refused visas, had healthcare wrongfully refused, bank account wrongfully frozen, many driven to depression, bankruptcy, or suicide. Some have even been killed by heavy handed G4S immigration enforcement officers.

And this is happening day in, day out, routinely.

All of that in a judicial framework (or rather lack of) where you are not even allowed to challenge home office decision in courts most of the time...

When it comes to the attitude of the UK government towards foreigners the word "persecution" comes to mind and seems perfectly justified.

Well, given that there will be 3 millions of EU citizens eligible for British citizenship within one or two years time, and given that they represent a lethal electoral threat to the conservatives if they get the right to vote, I would expect that within a year the rules will change to make the test even harder or to somehow select conservatives votes.

Sajid already indicated that the Life in the UK test would be replaced by an assessment of adherence to "British values" which obviously will be completely politically motivated, subjective, and can keep pass rates arbitrary low.

I have said above with many EU citizens being eligible soon for citizenship after a year or two it is extremely likely that the fees will go up even more within the next year or so, and the test your wife passed replaced by something a lot harder.

So my advice to you is that if she wishes to get citizenship better get it as quickly as possible because it is only going to become a lot harder and a lot more expensive in the future.

There was an investigation by the BBC that gave some indication of the lengths that some people will go to in order to pass this test -

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-london-470...

I've just taken my dad and a couple of his mates back to the airport. They come here for a week's holiday every year (I've no idea why)
Totally unrepentant about brexit despite his own family's (me) dependence on being in the EU.
So my point is after a week of this I'm already as angry as f**k and now after reading your post I'm absolutely fizzing.
Shameful.

E

Yeah, my wife did this a couple of years ago and had a similar experience.

Unless you're planning on moving elsewhere, or really just can't afford it, I'd strongly suggest she bite the bullet and go for citizenship. If not, who knows what circumstances you might find yourselves in a few years from now, if things deteriorate further?

Bloody shameful treatment

I've just had a go at a couple of the practice tests. Passed the first one but failed the second with 67%. Do I get deported now?

The Home office is truly Inhuman.  There was a women on TV here who was married here, lived here for twenty or thirty years, speaks fluent Geordie - married one, had kids.  All of whom still live in the UK.  Unfortunately she'd spent too much time caring for her mother in her native country over the last few years and she was threatened with deportation.  

Yet criminals  who can hardly string a word or two of English into something understandable have been allowed to stay because they have impregnated some female can stay;  "because they have a right to family life".   

Appalling !!   

Eye glasses with a camera in the bridge, or a jawbone conduction microphone and some very quiet mumbling.  

Where there is a will, there is a scumbag waiting to make a profit.  

Not that I can get too angry at people cheating these tests.  Being able to cheat them probably demonstrates more useful attributes (excepting the obvious negative one - dishonesty) than answering the questions themselves.

Why is the state pandering to the small minded bigots amongst us? It’s the Little Englanders who need deporting; the experience might open their minds. We could then allow them back in, should they be sufficiently enlightened.

Seriously.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too. The person I know from Hungary has done that to secure her place here for good.

Don’t many countries have citizenship tests?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.immigrationworld.com/germany/can-you-pas...

You're missing the point.

It is not that we check that people can speak the language or know a bit about the country it is about the way people are treated when they ask to live here.

You can set up a set of fair tests and requirements that must be passed and administer them in a fair and helpful manner, treating people with some respect and dignity. No one would have a problem with that. The reality though is that the Home office works on the assumption that everyone who applies to stay in Britain is dishonest and has no business to be asking them. If there is a way of rejecting your application they'll find it if there's something you've overlooked or a mistake you've made they'll do their best to use it to throw you out of the country.

You don't have to behave like an arsehole to ensure the rules are applied firmly and fairly.

Is this your opinion or is it UK government policy to assume everyone is dishonest?

More experience than opinion.

It's potentially a part of the Hostile Environment Policy. A relative sold their company within the past few years, meaning that the name got changed, and the visa of somebody from Brazil still had the old company name on it rather than the new/current one.  Either on Thursday afternoon or Friday morning (I'm guessing it was Friday morning and he was given 48 hours), he was told that he was going to be deported, meaning that within the space between then and the end of Monday, he and his partner had to pull their son out of school, end the rental contract on their family home, give away to charity shops anything they couldn't take on the plane with them,, end the contract on the car they had, and by the end of Monday they were being flown out of the UK. Even though everybody they spoke to during the process acknowledged that it was simply an administrative oversight, once the deportation procedure had been triggered, there was nobody who had any power to stop this family from being deported from the UK.

This Brazilian guy is very clever, and worked everyday within the office as part of an R&D team, developing software which brought revenue into the UK thanks to overseas sales, and had been recruited from Brazil due to there being nobody from within the UK applying for his position - or nobody suitable. Now based in Brazil, he still works for the same company remotely, but it isn't the same as bouncing ideas between one another in person, and one of his colleagues commented that they'd just lost the R in the R&D team. Sadly following his experience, he's now wanting to live and work in France instead of the UK, meaning they'll benefit from his taxes, and his expertise too should he change jobs at some point in the future and/or decide to put down roots there.

I recently contacted the local Prefecture for advice on obtaining citizenship or a Permanent Residency card. I was told that things are on hold, awaiting the  Brexit decisions. I'm sure that the French authorities will be getting feedback on how badly French and other E.U nationals are being treated. It would be hardly surprising if they didn't use the same degrading methods on British naturalisation / residency candidates. 

Depending on the Brexit agreement or even the UK remaining in the E.U all these nasty measures could be absolutely useless, with E.U nationals having  an automatic right to live and work in the UK  and vice-versa, adding to the billions already wasted in this Brexit fiasco.

Citizenship tests are just a stupid idea, just the same as swearing allegiance at a citizenship ceremony.

Either you’re going to settle and engage with the customs, culture  and laws of the country, or you’re not....or something in between. Regardless of any ridiculous test or breast beating.

As for government examinations, they’ve always been universally impersonal, rigid and hostile. It’s just the way it is.

Apparently they refused the Director of Research at Ofsted settled status!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ofsted-brexit-daniel-muijs-...

What we actually need in the UK is a hostile environment for dickheads. 

What a dreadful experience ! Really sorry for you both. I also find the lack of empathy from Home Office staff who would themselves have once applied for British citizenship appalling.......

I got 100% on those questions.  Admittedly I've been married to a German for a long time but they were easy.   I found the UK questions far more difficult and politically problematic.

I found this link to be interesting in that I hadn’t really considered that becoming a British citizen could result in the loss of ones original citizenship.

https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/themen/migration/staatsang/Verlu...

First off, thanks for posting the OP, I have been aware of this sort of thing but kind of hoped it had got better since Ellis Island 115 years ago.

Regarding earpieces there are loads of tricks that none of us know about (you mock the Tom Cruise Mission Impossible HID sunglasses from 19 years ago but remember, that was 19 years ago....). Finger or heel tapping to get a Morse code message out like “who played xyz in Corrie in 1989?”

AS wintertree says, anyone that can pull that off is clearlY very bright anyway but you see what I am getting at.

Good luck with it all. 

This whole 'hostile environment' thing has added to the embarrassment and shame I feel in being a UK citizen.

And I think it is worth reminding these b*stards that they 'civil servants' - they're employed by us, they work for us. 

I agree it's ridiculous but I imagine the point is not that you know these things but that you take the time and have the (pretty limited!) skills to find out.

Edit: I'm assuming it's a 'seen' paper or questions picked from a seen bank like I think Erick said it was.

I have a good friend who is now back in Germany after 20 years for whom this process appeared to be the final straw, although she did take it to citizenship. 

That's right Rob, and honestly I'm puzzled - why do they act like that?? I could guess but anyway it's sad & demoralizing

It seems to be Home Office policy that everyone is dishonest. There is current a Windrush-style scandal unfolding with relation to English-language tests for foreign students - as a result of a number of cheats in 2014, the Home Office has cancelled the visas of 34,000 foreign students, and forcibly removed over 1,000 students, without evidence that they cheated. There is a presumption of guilt and no right of appeal. 

In a similar way, the Home Office has been misusing terrorism legislation to deport foreign workers who have made errors in the tax returns. 

And of course, the whole Windrush scandal is a clear demonstration of assumed dishonesty. 

Some interesting and shocking responses to this.

I now realise the reason for the ridiculous frisking having read and heard more about the cheating that had obviously gone on in 2014. Still it seems to be a reflection of our current political climate that the cheating gets a Panorama program and lots of news coverage, but the miscarriages, mistakes and unfair deportations don't. It is also a characteristic of incompetent sub-contract companies that they go for draconian nonsense solutions rather than just a common sense approach.

I also appreciate the comments of sympathy for our situation but I would like to say that we are fine. This was part of an experiment my wife was carrying out for one of her courses and isn't something we are relying on for her future residency. Sheffield University have been very proactive at protecting their non-British staff and one assumes that, even under the hardest of Brexits, it would still be a requirement that a Dutch person was needed in the Dutch section of Germanic Studies.

Alan

Dislikers Sod off!  No place for you on this particular thread given the OP content

Not a subject I had ever given thought to, so have no knowledge, but it sounds like your wife had an unpleasant experience and there is no excuse for personal hostility towards people.

A quick Google surprised me at how many countries (I think 11 EU) use such tests but all different - one would have thought the EU would standardise them in time?

I have no idea how the process compares, but be interesting to hear from people who had been through the experience recently in other countries.

we need a people's union to stand up for the individual against an increasingly shite-ridden reich administrative system

this stuff deserves wider publicity

Good luck with that. Mate of mine succesfully got his French citizenship 2 years ago. He described the pile of papers he neeed to support his application as a nightmare and about a foot high.

Gaining citizenship in most Western countries is not easy anymore. Just look at the USA as a parellel. Is Aus or NZ any easier, no?Citizenship in the " right " country is a highly prized piece of paper globally.

We all moan about it as UK citizens when we are faced with sorting it out, yet people will go through hell to get it and  it is a reflection of the age we live in and no govt really knows how to address it as I see it.They are in a no win situation whichever way they turn or whoever is in power in whichever Western country.

Taking my daughter for the first part of the driving test opened my eyes to how these type of centres are run. The days of fluffy cushions and nice environments for these type of centres have long gone it is just most of us are not exposed to them.

It is functional at its bare minimum.

I'm looking into starting my application for French Nationality soon. I follow quite a few social media pages regarding the process and I have two friends who have just become French.

In all the research I've done I've never come across anyone who has experienced a hostile environment. Occasional grumpy French civil servants and missplaced paperwork setting the process back,  yes - but non of this hostile shit.

In fact I just collected my 10 year French residency permit on Monday and the whole process was as smooth and as friendly as I would have wished. (even though I'm angry that I had to go through this process in the first place)

E

The Home Office is, quite rightly, being investigated over these incidents.

What is happening in the case of Arjun Das?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-student-visa-en...

He came to the UK in 2010 to complete a degree and ‘suffered’ under the system. However, it would appear that he’s still here.

Indeed.

If only. My impression is that they normally work for some US version of Capita and are incentivised to pick out as many failures as they can.

jcm

Out of curiosity , and apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick - from what I gather she is Dutch and is she applying for both citizenship and settled status at the same time?

Was any of this related to the settlement status as I didn't believe that came with any interview / test requirements. My other half as a Swede just went through the process and although she was offended by the principle of it, it was fairly painless and done without any physical interaction. She did need to get a letter from her employer but I suspect that was due her using her middle name on some things and her proper legal name on others so the paper trail possibly wasn't clean.

This doesn't excuse what she has had to go through, so my question is whether this is something that had to endure due to being an EU national and wanting to be "settled" (i.e Brexit related, so may affect millions of people) or was it due to her trying to gain British Citizenship which probably has a higher barrier to entry? 

She already has 'settled status' - that was all arranged and paid for by the University. The British test was an experiment since her area of expertise is post-colonial literature. She has never had any real intention of taking it through to a citizenship application although we have only fully ruled it out after these recent events. 

Our children, on the other hand, are like Jason Bourne when it comes to passports these days even managing to have different names on them - don't ask!

Alan

So you agree that the behaviour of the Home Office has been such that it requires investigation? 

Can I ask why you use quote marks round 'suffered'? He's been treated like a criminal, spent 21 days in a detention centre, spent thousands of pounds in legal fees. I presume you don't think that's a good thing, for someone who has no case proved against him. 

I couldn’t work out from the linked newspaper story exactly what had happened to him which is why I put the word ‘suffered’ the way I did. If you appear in the UK as a student in 2010 then surely you’re well gone by 2019 - having either been deported or having finished your studies and returned home?

Why would anyone, especially a student, try to stay in a country which had apparently treated them so poorly?

Unless it’s the only country in the world to offer a particular course?

Perhaps he's been busy with a legal fight? It is quite likely that the legal wheels in such a case turn exceedingly slowly. There are many reported cases in which vital paperwork has gone missing, requiring repeated submissions, and misleading information being issued by the Home Office. 

Trying to pick holes in one particular case really doesn't show you in a good light. As you've acknowledged, the behaviour of the Home Office has been such that it requires external investigation. It is clear that there is a considerable problem in the Home Office, where applicants are presumed guilty at the outset. This is contrary to what I consider to be normal standards of decency and justice. 

Thanks. I spoke to a very  pleasant lady at the Prefecture. We even  managed to exchange a few jokes about the Brexit situation. Given the length of time I have lived in France and  entitlement to a French pension there's no hurry. I'm just extremely disappointed that the misguided Little Englanders fail to see the bigger picture and why the UK is better within the European Union. 

I’m not attempting to pick holes but I am attempting to work out what is happening.

The Independent has several articles describing how students have lost their jobs and homes and are homeless and I’m thinking ‘are these students or are they workers?’

Would you really spend thousands of pounds and many years fighting to stay in the UK in order to complete a business studies degree?

It must be one heck of a course!

Unfortunately, some intrusive checks are needed to prevent cheating but they could be carried out with courtesy. 

Also unfortunately those carrying out these tests are not civil servants.

They are employees of a private company who wants to maximise their profit and contracted to do the work by a government who wants everything on the cheap. The result is poor conditions and bad attitude from those controlling the test.

Dave

"Some were detained by immigration officials, lost their jobs, and were left homeless as a result, despite being in the UK legally."

Under a Tier 4 visa you are allowed to work. Indeed you are expected to work. While you have to show you can support your study costs to enter the UK, you are also allowed to work to do things like maintain a home, buy food etc. This is what has happened here.

"Others remained and worked desperately to clear their names, knowing that going home with such a slur hanging over them would have destroyed their reputations and barred them from jobs."

Which explains why they didn't just bugger off. They may also have invested 20-30K in the UK in education etc just to get to start their first year at University and cannot afford to go home with no qualification. 

And, as in the case cited, there may be spouses and other family members to be considered. 

"...We have no intention of taking this any further."

Horrible stuff but isn't this what they are trying to achieve? Don't let them win!

I went through the whole process.

The process as a sole purpose and it is encountered at most turns- to put you off and give up. By its very nature it is discriminatory- tests are!

Level of education is a barrier, cultural background is a barrier, financial security is a barrier, perseverance in the face of administrative opacity is yet another. 

The test cannot be faulted, it does what it sets out to do. What I would question is the need to do it.

I would recommand a read of the set test if you want a good laugh though, some amazing glossing over which has high entertaining value!

https://lifeintheuktests.co.uk/study-guide/

residenst"

Wots one of them, then?

From all I learn about other counties it is just as mindbogglingly bureacratic. He was a bit astounded at the level of documentation required.

It is not easy "transfering" citizenship.

And in turn applicants do not want to pay an even larger sum for processing an application on the guiding principle the process must be self financing.So yes it will be cheap and costs will be driven down.

And if people are asked to pay another £500 like with an airline for a better service, most people would still go down the low cost route.

Ah, but that is mainly because we don't think we need to. It might be optimistic, but if they start throwing people who have been in UK education as a tax payer for 29 years then we'll be happy to leave.

Also, my wife doesn't feel British (that was obvious last night in the Spurs-Ajax match) so it would be nonsensical. For us, actually being forced to get British citizenship would be admitting defeat since there should be nothing preventing our country embracing and benefitting from people of all nationalities without only properly accepting them once we have branded them as 'brits'.

Alan

The test needs to be hard. We have too many idiots already. Apparently if you do very badly in it they make you become a politician.

a typo, maybe? We all make tem- my previous post shows "as" when it should be "has". My h key has become a bit fiddly!

I have already forgotten the less useful info...same as people remembering stuff from their driving theory test. Need to know basis on the day...quickly forgotten!

All very well to be be principled, but unless you can afford to truly uproot easily (money, family situation...) better get citizenship. I don't feel very British either. I just happen to live in, contribute to and now influence somewhat British life.

I did it for my kids (still relying solely on parents for the foreseeable 10/15 years).

The bastards setting and calling for these tests should be made to do them.

Why does dealing with the (un)civil service, or in this case someone acting on their behalf, have to be so shit?

Is it because we have a sense of privilege that we are automatically entitled to these things and we expect doors to easily open for us?

I have often been surprised by how civil the civil service is in my dealings to be honest. 

I resented the whole process. Went to the compulsory ceremony grudging it. There was a Ugandan citizen doing it too. He was over the moon. Hired kilt, whole family, great party for them...it put me to shame really. It should feel like the finalisation of a positive process- from then on, you are like a local in the eyes of the law. I felt entitled though...a bit galling to apply for a right you have been fully utilising for 15 years.

I agree with your sentiment neilh, we really behave like entitled people. It was "inconvenient" for me and it cost the family its annual family holiday... big wow! On the plus side, I get to vote and can now fully engaged in all aspects of my host, now own, country.

Very true too. Underpaid, understaffed services dealing with people (the full spectrum from really nice to downward nasty) day-in, day-out.

The home office truly has a "hostile environment" culture that has been cultivated by politicians to appeal to electorate for well over a decade (started under Labour, although Theresa was at the helm of this migrant vendetta for 7 years- the longest serving in that post in 2 decades).

My brother and sister in law got Australian nationality after living there for 5 years or so. I reckon the written part of a driving test would be harder.

E

It does give a sense of perspective sometime, thanks for posting that. 

I expect it was a typo. But as it's from the first sentence in that website you linked to I would expect an organisation promoting English Language to get it proof checked.

Did they have the skills the Aussies want ? They are pretty keen in that case. And if you are over 45 , not over enthusiastic, pretty restrictive. 

Its nothing new either.  I know a couple of people - one Polish, the other (family) Burmese (actually born British citizens due to Burma's crown status pre war). who after arriving in the country post WW2 had to Anglicise/change their name.  I used to photocopy the Polish chap's documents for him and he explained it all to me.   Quite sad really having to renounce your heritage.

Have you got any non French mates who are black? My interactions with Finnish bureaucracy over the best part of two decades were almost all unbelievably easy but the African lads I became mates with on a language course dealt with a lot of open and thinly veiled racism. It was quite an education in what white privilege really means. ☹️

And indeed the government of Australia is imprisoning asylum seekers on remote Pacific Islands completely outside of Australian law and ignoring much international law. It should be an utter scandal, I can't see it being much worse than Trump imprisoning children on the American border but most seem to look the other way. 

The two polish lads in my school class, Zawadski and Karpinski, got nothing but admiration because their fathers had fought at Monte Cassino.

More a celebration of heritage than a renouncement.

There's little consistency in what gets held up for criticism it can sometimes seem.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.immigrationworld.com/germany/can-you-pas...

It's very good of them to have it in English. I passed!

So did I . Even though I have never even been there!

These things are only a bit like driving tests really.

You bully up on the Highway Code, keep your hands at ten to two. Mirror, signal, manoeuvre like a saint. And then when you get your pass certificate in your hot little hand you wheelspin out of the test car park and drift round every roundabout on the way to the pub.

Here are some extra general knowledge questions that should definitely be in the test:

1. Which of the following people did not work for British intelligence?

a. Benito Mussolini

b. James Bond

c. Duke of Queensberry

d. Kim Philby

2. Which of the Queen's relatives was suspected of being a Nazi collaborator by the FBI?

a. her father

b. her uncle

c. her grandfather

d. her son

3. What is the date of the Battle of Bannockburn?

Any more?

History/culture/trivia.

1. How many zulus were there?

2. "Don't mention the ______."

3. "Don't tell them your name _______."

(1) on a scone, jam then cream, or cream then jam?*

(2) milk first or tea first?

(3) shrewsbury or shrewsbury?

(4) scone or scone?

Those ones will keep the Riff Raff out!

* obviously a trick question as it omits the butter.

I'm not referring to you, your mates or my mates (sensible normal folks!).  I was referring to government documents at the time and how hostile language was used then as now.  

I'm not sure why it was so for him (or the other family)- especially as you mentioned a couple of kids by their kept polish names.

It's just not cricket

And talking about trick questions, I like those World War 2 stories where the US army would stop strangers at the front and ask"Quick - who won the World Series in 1934?" and woe to anyone who got it wrong. I would've frozen even if I'd known the answer

sadly I think it a good bit worse than that from what I've seen of it.

Mind you when the set text goes on this way (check the particularly interesting bold bit at the end:

"The future of the Empire

Although the British Empire continued to grow until the 1920s, there was already discussion in the late 19th century about its future direction. Supporters of expansion believed that the Empire benefited Britain through increased trade and commerce. Others thought the Empire had become over-expanded and that the frequent conflicts in many parts of the Empire, such as India’s north-west frontier or southern Africa, were a drain on resources. Yet the great majority of British people believed in the Empire as a force for good in the world.

The Boer War of 1899 to 1902 made the discussions about the future of the Empire more urgent. The British went to war in South Africa with settlers from the Netherlands called the Boers. The Boers fought fiercely and the war went on for over three years. Many died in the fighting and many more from disease. There was some public sympathy for the Boers and people began to question whether the Empire could continue. As different parts of the Empire developed, they won greater freedom and autonomy from Britain. Eventually, by the second half of the 20th century, there was, for the most part, an orderly transition from Empire to Commonwealth, with countries being granted their independence."

It is hardly surprising that people are slightly roughed up during the test. The devil is NOT in the details it would seem!

I must say that my personal experience of the test itself was fine. Staff were civil enough if a bit curt (they looked tired and harassed). However the place looked shabby.

Aye the A4 bit of paper that "will not be replaced if lost" had a 20th C flavour to it that was barely palatable after a 3 and half hour journey (one way).

I guess a couple of million deaths and 10 - 20 million displaced people counts as an orderly transition.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

It was bad, but it could have been a lot, lot, worse.

"The latest (3rd) edition of the book was introduced in 2013 and will remain valid for 2017 and consequent years. It requires an understanding of the English language..."

Christ, just did the mock test.  How on earth does knowing which two British actors recently won Oscars qualify anyone tell us anything useful about someone's suitability for living in the UK?  Lunacy.

Who is listening through those hidden earpieces?

Maybe, but if someone competent had been in charge maybe it could have been much better.

https://rightsinfo.org/the-hostile-environment-has-been-weaponised-by-domes...

What's desperate, is that the government's Hostile Environment Policy is being used by domestic abusers to stop women from seeking help, because of how their right to remain is tied to their relationships with their abusers. 

I just read the first few words and nearly had a heart attack; "My wife has just taken her Life ..."

Calm down dear.

Place's gone to the dogs mate. 

I'm off surfing.

Don't take it too seriously. None of us are getting out alive.

Missed this post earlier. Really sorry to hear this, its frankly shameful. 

If only the goverment funded schools as well as they do in this aspect of 'creating a hostile environment' and quality controlled the process a fraction as well as they do schools. Hypocrisy plain and simple and with real consequencies to good people who have made massive contributions to the UK, not the least of which is in their taxes.

We had to apply for my wife's indefinite leave to remain in February, still haven't heard anything. I had to borrow of family members just to pay for the application. If it's turned down, we have to appeal and pay even more. No idea where I would get the money from if that happens, I don't even have enough equity in our house to raise the money that way. The whole process is so oppressive, and this is after applying for and paying through the nose for 2 spouse visas

I've always been proud of being British, unfortunately my pride has waned considerably in the last few years. I'm beginning to think about a future outside the UK. Once all our accumulated debts have been cleared, we will probably move back to Turkey for good.

I was going to add that it is relatively easy for white European residents. Non white and/or non EU have it considerably harder, be it financially or facing hostility.

It was certainly much cheaper in my day (early 2000s).  But the delays were immense, waiting 9 months without a passport and no line of enquiry into its status.

Seems a bit much to pin this on the present government.  The whole system has been made progressively more difficult and more expensive regardless of who has been in charge, as far as I can tell.

Since the PM made things much worse during her years in the home office, including this hostile environment crap,  I think blaming the government is for once spot on.

I've given your post a dislike because what you are describing is just horrible. Our neighbour is going through the same process to try and get permanent residency, until I spoke to them I had no idea of the time consuming beaurocracy and considerable expense that it involves. What a wonderful contribution to Britain's "proud and illustrious history"! 

   The hostile environment policy was undoubtedly iniquitous, badly and unjustly implemented and aggravated the problem. (My own pet theory is that the only "ordinary" people Mrs.May ever speaks to are 75 year old Tory party members in Henley and therefore she thinks that everybody is as obsessed with immigration as they probably are)

  But this was a problem going back decades, as I know having twice helped my wife thought the misnamed "permanent right to reside" process, in 1989 and 2000. Both times involved long delays, ignorance and therefore misguided advice on the part of the HO, and ultimately the involvement of my MP the second time. And this was for the entirely legitimate Japanese wife of a solvent and employed UK citizen (me) and mother of my children. And the conditions and treatment at "Loony House", the immigration centre in Croydon, were hideous.

  The HO was simply under resourced and under trained and these problems was massively compounded when Nulabour encouraged a huge increase in immigration without financing the resources to monitor it.

  And as for the silly questionnaire. Are the questionnaires of other countries that much better?

Maybe rather than "dislike" we need the FB emotions...the OP's experiences would definitely get the "crying face" one

I'e been through the whole process and I currently waiting to receive my citizenship. The Life in the UK test was possibly the least painful part of the process. I have to say that the people I encountered along the way were generally friendly, but the system is Kafkaesque and the information available is confusing and frequently contradictory. For our family of four, this will put us back over £5,000, but what I resent the most is that fact that I have to do it at all. 

Distorting this whole sad story as merely nulabour induced HO incompetency, is not only disingenuous, it’s actually a nasty way to just brush aside the responsibility of the CRIMES committed by the previous and current government.

The main issues have not been caused by HO incompetence but indeed by HO competence enabled by fully deliberate, calculated policies and LAWS that have been passed bills by recent conservative government, and as far as I can tell they have not only not changed direction but  instead just reinforced their frankly fascist  approach to immigration policy - which unfortunately is supported - or legitimised - by their voting base, and beyond.

  Which I deliberately and explicitly didn't do you illiterate f**king fool.

I get your understandable anger and bitterness, but reading your post as objectively as I can I'm not convinced that you give due weight to the difference between general incompetence (nulabour), and the malicious, conscious policy to reduce immigration through nastiness. It corrupted us all.

    Yours is a polite, reasoned and nuanced criticism. I have no problem with posts like that.

  As my post made very clear, I am extremely critical of both May’s immigration policy and its implementation. My point, incidentally, was not that it was all nulabour’s fault, but that many  of the administrative (as opposed to policy) failings people on this thread have experienced go back decades.

And again, you are doubling down on classifying these issues as administrative failings, when in fact it is pretty obvious that they are clearly part of a deliberate policy. 

The problems are not the administrative failings, these are somewhat the norm in government department and indeed are not new, the problem is the fact that almost all judicial recourses that protected against them have been either removed or frustrated, and individual rights removed, making the home office an (incompetent) judge,  jury and executioner that can act outside the law at the whim of politicians in total impunity. And that is policy.  

In fact the only reason the OP’s wife had to go through this ridiculous and deliberately humiliating process is because of Brexit, which is policy, which in fact you publicly supported.

And now of course you try to abscond yourself of ANY responsibility, instead of admitting, that maybe, just maybe your political choices (and that of the tories) are exactly the cause of all this.

  And yet again you only read what you want to read rather than what is written. Would be unbelievable if you on nearly every thread.. I won't waste any more time being dragged into one of your ridiculous rabbit holes. Keep taking the pills x

I read what is written and what I see is the same weasel word that always tries to excuse the inexcusable, whilst trying to abscond yourself of any responsibility for your political choices.

It’s too easy to blame Nulabour, or Theresa May, or Home office incompetence. At the end of the day these issues are the direct, obvious, consequences of policies in conservatives manifestos. Which people supported.

At some point they need to stop blaming the world and take responsibility for their political choices.