UKC

A pondering / discussion point / question.

I work on a small business park, just 9 little units here, mostly consulting or distribution firms (not me though, I am looking after and showcasing some high end NDT inspection equipment)

This business park is located in a small rural town and is tucked out of the way, out of sight of the main road, and is approached up a small road that originally just led to some allotments - the road was extended 100 metres when the business park was built. I've been here 3 years, the business park is about 5 years old

Yesterday, travellers set up their caravans just by the entrance to the allotments, so out of sight of the business park. A small tow caravan and two horse and cart caravans. Three horses. Some children. I haven't stopped and stared. 

Aside from a self-realisation that I am totally prejudiced and NIMBY, I also realised that I am clueless as to what happens next.

Are they breaking any laws? As far as I know they are not on private land. 
Are they allowed a stay of 14 days being being forcibly moved on IF they are forcibly moved on?

Am I right to feel all guilty for even thinking "ooh they might break in, and they will leave excrement and trash all over the road?"

Without wishing to state the obvious it depends upon the individuals, their intentions and of course the actions of others with respect to them.

jk

Somebody prejudiced with pre-judge them and tell you to check your security systems and remove anything of value from the compound or unit.

Somebody more open-minded will tell you to relax, they are just on their way through and will be gone in a couple of days. The ponies will even cut the grass for you and leave you something for the roses in return.

As with the sudden appearance of ANY group of people you don't know, be aware that strangers are suddenly going to be in the area, round the clock.

And as they won't be there long-term, there's a higher risk of them not worrying too much about upsetting anyone.

Hopefully they'll turn out to be a decent lot and not cause any problems, but I'd be taking some basic security precautions, personally.

The fact that they are travellers isn't really relevant to any of this (other than that being why they've just appeared, and why they probably won't stick around).

In a previous job we had a group of travelers colonize the carpark at the vacant office unit next to ours .  They arrived as we were having a summer picnic and proceeded to steal food from the tables (walked up and helped themselves) and racially abused the non-white members of staff.  We shut the office for the week, stationed a security guard in the office 24 hours and worked from home while the landlords had them evicted with the help of the police.  I had previously been quite open minded about them but this lot were thoroughly unpleasant and left rubbish and excrement behind on the site when they departed.  So taking precautions is sadly sensible.

That said, we're had travelers on the village green for the last two years, the most recent incursion lasting nearly three weeks.  They weren't noisy, kept the place clean and left rubbish neatly bagged.  It wasn't an idea situation but they weren't really a problem other than being a bit of an eyesore.  I did take extra precautions to keep the house, garden and buildings secure though, because I think it'd be neglectful not to.

Hope your lot are more like the latter than the former.

David

If they are on the highway, call the Council and let them know, in case they don’t already. They will have a process that will move them on, which includes welfare checks on the children. Small family group is unlikely to cause much bother, but regardless of who they are, probably wise to show a degree of caution with any unfamiliar group.

Welcome to a forum minefield......

#1 son is an equine vet.  The practice he worked for used to do quite a lot of work with travelers because there are quite a lot around here, with a lot of horses.  They've now decided to stop because it simply wasn't worth the grief.  Son's starting position was £200 in cash before he even looked at a horse.  If there was anything left over he'd give it back; if anything more was needed, cash in advance.  He got fed up having to keep one eye on the horse and another on the youths peering into the back of his truck to see what they could lift.  On some sites they got to know the head man and would go to see him first, but still always cash in advance.

One of the stable yards had a pick-up nicked and know where it was - they could see it.  The police wouldn't do anything about it.  They were talking about it to the vets.  One of the partners walked into the travelers' site, went to the head man, said "That's my mate's truck, it's coming with me, keys or no keys.  Keys please".    Keys were found, truck driven away, nothing more said.

They were forever pushing for painkillers for their trotting horses (racing on tarmac roads).   The pain-free horse would win, so the vet would usually back it too.

A lot of the time, they'll just dump a horse in a yard.  The owners, being horse people, would usually call the vet and pay for the horse to be fixed.  The horse would then later disappear from the yard one night.

More than that, I wouldn't care to say.

Oh! How romantic!

I find this incredible. Why wouldn't they?

I do not find that incredible.  I do not find that surprising.  I do not think the police always have the support they need to use their powers.  The Richard Osborn-Brooks case made that astoundingly clear.   An attempt to get the van back would probably mean borrowing the more aggressive part of the TSG, and dealing with the media aftermath.

I used to be ambivalent about gypsys until I worked part time at a fairground that came through a few weeks ago. The boss smelled like oregano, sage and basil. He was a well seasoned traveller. Anyway he sacked me for no reason and I am now suing him for funfair dismissal.

In my experience the ponies won't be the only things leaving turds behind them.

It's a funny one. There has been a traveller site (permanent) for years near Sheffield, at least 20 years. When my Dad was having some work done on my old childhood home a few years ago, something was stolen from the back garden, and he mentioned in passing that the people who owned the equipment had put it down to 'the new traveller site' and used one or two other thefts in the area to support their point of view, any recent spike in thefts may have just been a spike which coincided with them becoming aware that the site was actually there. Which isn't to say that the negative experiences people post about aren't true. 

In a round about way, I guess what I'm trying to say is life is about individuals and the specifics, which is probably what Blue Straggler needs to think about. He could perhaps chat to them and ask them their plans, try and get a feel for what kind of people they are? These people might just be a little unit who don't want any trouble or to cause any either....

There is a well-built permanent travellers' site a couple of hundred yards from the Climbers Club hut in Pembrokeshire. The locals were very antagonistic when planning permission was applied for and the case went all the way to the European Court of Justice. From the press reports of the legal action it was discovered that the litigation was being funded by David Essex, whose mother was a traveller.

Having said that, the building work has been done to a high standard and I am not aware of any crimes carried out by the inhabitants (it does not seem to have been used particularly intensively).

For example:

youtube.com/watch?v=7aUTdYsZda8&

not a problem.

Bunch of dodgy looking people littering the place up and with aggressive dogs trying to bite anyone that walks past - problem.

The Osborn-Brooks case is nothing like this one. And as we know nothing about the particular circumstances around this incident we can't say how difficult a problem the police faced.

I didn’t say that it was.  

Why did you bring it up then?

Because it is illustrative of a relevant point.

To the dislikers; 

I count several gypsies among my friends. Even though they are settled, they still identify and are knowledgeable about their culture. They are the ones who explained to me why gypsies buying a perfectly good two axle van costing many tens of thousands of pounds will rip out the toilet and use the space as a wardrobe or some such. 

We fret about washing chicken; they have a complete cultural aversion about shitting in the same caravan in which you eat. 

So they go outside for a shit. It's that simple.

For more info, google the word "mochadi".

The issue is that there are far  too many people in the uk for one section of the community to claim special privilege for what at the end of the day is a serious biohazard and infection risk. 

For "mochadi", thank you, it makes sense.

However, 

They are the ones who explained to me why gypsies buying a perfectly good two axle van costing many tens of thousands of pounds, etc

https://www.preloved.co.uk/classifieds/commercial-vehicles/vans/all/uk/doub...

Good luck

Gypsys? Gypsys? disgraceful that you should say that in this day and age!

It is of course, Gypsies 

Police not investigating on traveller sites is standard practice. 

My brother was stationary waiting at a McDonald's drive-thru window in Blackpool, near midnight in the rain. He was hit by a hi-lux pickup being driven by a traveller kid (aged about 14) drifting and wheel-spinning around the car park. Hit hard, demolished the B pillar on a 7 series BMW. 

He had the CCTV of the incident, including the reg plate. We could see where the vehicle was parked in a semi-permanent traveller site and see the damage to the pickup. Through some mutual friends, we found out the name of the kid, the name of the father & vehicle owner. It was parked less than 2 miles from the incident. 

The police went to investigate but apparently could not question anyone because the gates were locked and the owners would not let them in. They did not attempt to arrest anyone. The investigation was closed. 

The vehicle was insured under a motor traders policy at a moth-balled garage in Scotland, underwritten by a firm in Gibraltar. Our insurer found it impossible to contact anyone to make a claim, even though the vehicle was effectively insured on the police database and being driven around town. Our insurer couldn't even claim from the uninsured driver fund because the car was actually insured. It was logged as a 'our-fault' claim for 12 months until it was resolved. We had to pay the excess (£600) to get the car repaired in a sensible time-frame this was subsequently refunded 18 months later. Meanwhile, the 'our-fault' claim had to be declared to our business fleet insurance, resulting in a premium increase on our 4 vans from around 5k to 8k for a period of 12 months. No refund possible when the claim was re-classified. 

No solution to the financial loss. No one to sue. 

I'm all for people being given the freedom to live their lives however they want, without interference from the state, but the reality is not so rosy. The established laws & systems are being exploited, funded by the general population. 

Actually where they shit is a very big issue; we had a thoroughfare (ginnel, snicket, whatever) rendered completely impassable by the piles of excrement left by a batch of travellers.

You are right about special privilege; if we shat wherever we felt we would face prosecution and rightly so.

I meant caravans but you knew that, didn't you?

Deviating a little, but perhaps the travellers are right.

Why should we all conform to a life of slavery and debt ? 

Low pay and zero hour contracts are not a rosy option for all of us.

You can keep moving them on, but  they're not going to go away........................

Me washing chicken doesn't inconvenience anyone. Up to 300,000 people shitting anywhere they like, apart from a toilet, inconveniences loads of people as well as being a health hazard, hugely antisocial and f*cking disgusting.

Certain elements of the travelling community have embraced the slavery bit...

That’s ok tell me where your street is and I’ll bring my two dogs to shit all over it and leave it for someone else to deal with it ... it’s my lifestyle choice you see.

If it's 'standard practice' that means there's a document somewhere. I've never heard of such a document. 

Your anecdote does not provide any evidence of standard practice in which police ignore traveller crime. My understanding is that if anything the opposite is true: police approaches both to traveller crime and crime against travellers is wildly inconsistent.

In my experience gypsies on horse drawn carriages tend to be sound and don't go on the rob, leave piles of shite and rubbish behind or do half arsed driveway jobs. 

Its the ones in modern caravan towed by transit vans, pickups and range rovers that leave skip after skips worth of rubbish behind as well as loads of building rubble. 

Well, there may be some nice ones.

However the 3 experiences locally have all been terrible:

1.  Broke into the scout hut and trashed it; stealing everything of value and ruining the rest seemingly for fun (knifed the tents for example).  Evicted (took about 3 weeks).

2.  Parked up on the school playing fields and used the pavilion (storage shed really) as a toilet.  Evicted (took about 4 weeks).

3.  Parked on the verge of the main road - took about 4 weeks to get moved and left shit everywhere.

Local policewoman said there were dozens of small robberies/garge break-ins whilst they were here each time.

So I'm afraid my prejudice is fairly set now.

I work on a business park which has a lot of green space and we occasionally get travellers pitch up and camp. To stop them, we have permanent width restriction bollards on all the main access points to stop the caravans getting through. Keeps the site security chap busy moving them for legit big lorries.

We had a lot a while ago that were horrendous - broke or forced their way into every building, despite the external door security being permanently activated (it's normally deactivated during office hours), and managed to get into some of the offices (past more security doors), where laptops and various other personal items were stolen. Those of us that use the bike sheds were warned to keep bikes indoors while they were present and keep cars in the car park empty.

They tried to interfere in some site organised events and threatened to throw the female site manager off the bridge into the lake.

When they left, I understand it cost a fair bit in cleanup/repair bills.

Another lot, years ago, used to come into the sports centre I used to use the pool and sauna. They were unpleasant, sexist/highly "inappropriate" to any women and blatant thieves - one trick seemed to be claiming the drinks/snacks machine had swallowed their money and then grabbing everything they could when the lad came to open the machine to clear the supposed "jam".

Your lot might be fine, but past experience would tell me to be very cautious and expect the worst.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater...

By coincidence, I witnessed this operation a couple of days ago.

I’ve never washed chicken in my life.  

If I had a religious/societal/cultural reason not to shit in my house then I’d shell out £70 on a Kensington camping toilet and shit in that.  If I couldn’t find a disposal site I’d pour it down a public toilet.  If I couldn’t find a public toilet, I’d add a bit more of the neutraliser, shake the hell out of it and pour it down a drain.

My limited understanding of their culture suggests no reason why they couldn’t do this. 

 To Stichtplate and Cander;

I think part of my posts might have come across wrong; there is no -one more appalled at their toilet habits than me. I have seen it first hand and actually had my shoes soiled by their shit. I did try to explain how their hygiene culture was totally at variance with our society and at no point tried to justify it.  Explaining it doesn't mean I excused it.

My input came about solely because when I posted that the ponies weren't the only ones liable to leave turds behind, I got a couple of dislikes, probably not from people who have actually had any dealings with real life travellers. I doubt the dislikers came from Appleby.

We used to have gypsy horse fairs in the village next to mine till recently. I well remember a quote in the local paper from a police spokesman after one such gathering : it went along the lines of  "We have had an enjoyable horse fair in the village this weekend; there was only one major fight, and that in itself only closed down the High Street for an hour, so all in all it can be considered a success."

Seriously.

Timmd.

Have you ever approached a group of caravan dwellers / "travellers" / whatever-the-PC-phrase-is-today who have set up home very close to your place of work, and been "chatty and agreeable with them?

Thanks. There's not a lot I can do and our little site doesn't have manned security. 
I am mostly uneasy. They've been reported by the site landlord (who is not a "presence" at site, he just owns it all) to the relevant authorities. He's also apparently been to talk to them, presumably amicably AT THIS STAGE. 
I'm not getting involved at all. I am a tiny cog in a huge corporation and I am not putting myself at personal physical risk. If they break in and smash my place up, it's nothing to do with me in terms of responsibility. If they quietly move on and Saturday leaving nothing but carrier bags full of human shit along our road, I'll consider it "good"
 

Others upthread have already said that these folk might be good sorts. What you are suggesting is something that would upset such folk - me being an interfering upper-middle-class twit looking like I am patronising them regardless of good intentions. My OP clearly stated, in different wording, that "I don't know what to think". Weirdly, despite what I don't doubt are good and friendly intentions, you've managed to come across as patronising, judgemental, passive-aggressive, and naive. Which is probably what you need to think about. 

Thanks everyone (or at least MOST of you). 

Some food for thought there regarding how I should feel about this.  There is no action for me to take at the moment. See how it pans out. I'll update (that's why I posted in Off Belay and not The Pub)

'' There has been a traveller site (permanent) for years near Sheffield, at least 20 years. When my Dad was having some work done on my old childhood home a few years ago, something was stolen from the back garden, and he mentioned in passing that the people who owned the equipment had put it down to 'the new traveller site' and used one or two other thefts in the area to support their point of view, any recent spike in thefts may have just been a spike which coincided with them becoming aware that the site was actually there.''

I said the camp has been there for at least 20 years, I don't see how I'm being coy?

I've been told that I relate to people who I don't know as if they're already friends. Whether I talked to them or not would depend on how they seemed in person to me. 

Regarding calling me patronising, passive-aggressive, and judgemental, it was just thought on what you might possibly do, you need to chill out*. You seem to have decided you'd not feel comfortable talking to them, and then managed to turn it around decided I'm somehow at fault. 

*Or if you don't chill out, don't take it out on me. 

Good to see, although you'll note the large numbers of officers and TSG support. As posted up the thread, the chances of a police response if your stolen van and contents of your workshop/house are clearly visible on a travellers’ site are extremely low.

I have many experiences of the police not wanting to know. My wife used to trace people for a living  part of that work was for the courts tracing abscondees with outstanding fines. Any time she found someone on a gypsie site the police didn't want to know. A couple of mates van's have turned up on a sitesite, the police didn't want to know. When they broke in to the yard opposite mine and all the catalytic converters vanished during the night from the van sales place next door the police had no interest in my cctv fottage showing torches going back and forth between their camp and the van place.

On to the subject of shitting outside, yes it's a cultural thing but does that automatically make it right and acceptable. FMG and forced marriage are also cultural things but we are trying to stamp those out. 

Thanks Tim, sorry I skipped over the bit about the camp having been there for twenty years and the thefts being just a few years ago and someone referring to it as a new camp. I did read all that but failed to put it together, apologies for that. 

As for this <b>"calling me patronising, passive-aggressive, and judgemental"</b>, read my post again. I was very careful to EXACTLY NOT do that. What I called you was someone with "good and friendly intentions", which is positive and a compliment. I said you'd managed to COME ACROSS as "patronising, judgemental, passive-aggressive, and naive". That is quite different to CALLING you "patronising, passive-aggressive, and judgemental", and it's not me playing with words or using "weasel words" as some might be wont to accuse me of. I was being clear. 

Best regards

It's not just one section of the community though is it, around here all the human road-shit comes from truckers, in the countryside it's outdoorsy sorts like us, in the city it's drunks and the homeless.

jk

I’m yet to have a positive experience with travellers, either direct or indirect.

Delighted to have my mind changed, but suspect it would have to be via something pretty seismic.

My only advice would be very vigilant.

In the meantime, I do hope your visitors turn out to be a wonderfully charitable bunch of chatty, friendly, romantic and respectful itinerants; the kind Damien Le Bas seems to purport they are....

I had a great conversation with our next door neighbour’s  grand daughter’s dance instructor’s boyfriend (“our Sean”) at our jubilee street party. He wanted the recipie for my chilli.

He was raised between his settled mum’s council house and his traveller dad’s caravan on the local site, living in the later when dad was around.  One of 9 kids in the family, and the only meat he ever saw growing up was stuff he caught or poached.  He was a decent lad and had got a decent job, despite the cards being stacked against him - 23 years old and he had 4 teeth left.

I was really rattled to see the level of abject poverty some children are being raised in within the UK. 

Or just, well, perhaps, they cant be bothered the hassle of having to find a suitable disposal unit/facility where they can safely - and most likely at a cost - dispose of said waste when there is a perfect street/garden/industrial park in which they can leave their waste for someone else to worry about.

This is a highly unusual threat for an overtly P.C. site like UKC.

Interesting that even the more P.C. of the UKC regulars are in agreement that, more often than not, this particular section of our community are nothing but trouble.

Funny how many of our suppossed prejudices turn out to be fully justified when put under the spotlight!

It is indeed an interesting one and it reflects the comments I made in the OP and thread title regarding my own feelings and sudden confrontation with deep-seated prejudices that I thought I didn't have.

I have a couple of long term diving buddies, one of them fulfils many roles in a city council one of which used to heavy involvement in sorting out traveller issues, the other one is a total "live and let live" hippy with a genuine " everyone should just get along" optimism. 

So I've been party to friendly debate about "oh if they are just on the village green doing no harm then that's nice, ooh pretty horses too" vs "try saying that when they've stacked up a wall of 30 knackered tyres and set them on fire in the middle of your road"

Are you in Nottinghamshire?  There was a similar group near our village and as far as I could tell weren't a problem and their horses looked well looked after.  I don't remember seeing any mess after they left.  They actually seemed more like the old school travellers than the groups who drive around with their blinged up caravans and leave a mess where ever they descend upon.  

Close. Leicestershire. 

I think they may already be on their way, hard to tell at a glance (I see them for about 4 seconds as I turn past them to head up to my office). The metal caravan is gone, horses and horse drawns still there and the place looked a lot clearer than yesterday. Just two kids standing around when I was driving by.  Thanks. And I am no equine vet but (again just on drive-by viewing) their horses look very well kept

I think the primary problem is that the cops are backing off from enforcing the law against ethnic groups where they think there could be a confrontation.   They should enforce the law without fear or favour and everybody should understand that if you chase away a couple of cops in a car you are just going to get 100 cops in riot gear.   Backing down when muslim leaders make death threats against Salman Rushdie or a group of travellers close ranks to protect burglars or flout bye-laws just sends a message to that group they can do what they like and in the medium to long term makes the situation worse.

I'm only just over the border, I would guess it is the same group.  They are what I would define as proper travellers, moving on after a few days, leaving no trace.  Interesting group, wish I had had the time to talk to them.

Exactly. There is a huge difference between 'gypsies' (travelling folk of Romani descent) and modern day 'travellers' (usually of Irish descent).  The term 'gypsy' is a direct distillation of the word 'Egyptian'. There are number of possible reasons for this, one being that when the Roma migrated through Europe, they often were branded (by themselves or others) as Egyptian. The Roma are of Hindustani origin. The identity of Egyptian was often adopted as it offered more acceptance than their actual identity. Irish travellers are a completely separate group with some small linguistic similarities.

Im no expert however, and this is all stuff I've learned reading books on the history of Flamenco.

It is very common however for people to lump all travelling folk together into one basket. Its not possible to identify anyone's background by their choice of travel, Irish travelers have also traditionally travelled by horse and caravan, and Romani have adapted to more modern methods of travel.

At the end of the day, people are people and you'll only ever have an idea of what people are like by actually engaging with them. there are lovely folk, as well as arseholes in every walk of life...

edit : Spelling (probably still spelling mistakes... sorry grammar/spelling pedants)

Thanks for that. Another interesting group are the Scottish travellers, sometimes known by the derogatory term 'tinkers'. Here's an interesting piece about them: https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/traveller-culture-on-verge-of-extinction... . They really were tin-smiths, hence that name, and as such performed a useful social and economic function. This article doesn't discuss it but they also had their own language, Cant, similar to the Irish travellers' Shelta.

I notice that the woman featured in this disowns some of the current travellers as giving historical travellers a bad name.

"Hooped" wagons ?

Im in Nottinghamshire and the travelling folks around where I live are the worst kind of scumf*ckers known to man.  Abusive, thieving, aggressive etc.  2 of the lovely upstanding scamps broke into my shed, used my tools to break into my house where they helped themselves to my property, car, wallet and various other stuff, whilst my family and I were asleep upstairs. 

Agreed. This being the most shameful case of failure-to-act that I can think of, of late:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44288992

That said, with only half-a-dozen-or-so officers available on duty in Blackburn, there's not a huge amount that could do when 40 or 50 travelers turn-up and decided to wreck the place...particularly when the only reward they'll get for the efforts is sniping and allegations of (insert your preference)-ism.

There’s an article in the Independant that “dispels the myth” there is higher crime in gipsy/traveller communities by citing the statistic that the communities are under represented in the UK’s prison population.  I consider this one of the more intentionally egregious abuses of a statistic I have seen.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/5-big-fat-myths-about-gypsies-...

Come to Appleby or Kirkby Stephen around 10th June next year and make your own judgement.

The problem here is that its always a case of 'move along now'.  The issue isnt solved, the bastards just take their attitude and filth to the next village/site and do that same again.  

Yeah - stats-nonsense.

I suspect the same journalist would be quick to accuse the police of discriminatory behavior if the stats were reversed...

I think it shows discriminatory behaviour by the state against the travelling communities.

There’s a lot of evidence that crime is more contained within a given community than between them, and so the low prison rate suggests that victims within that community are not being protected equally by the state.  In terms of both child welfare and particularly domestic violence against women, the state disproportionately failes members of the various travelling communities.

I am careful not to accuse the police of discriminatory behaviour here; as I said before I believe they lack the support they need to tackle this.

Agreed. I commute from Kendal to Durham a couple of times a month and driving through Kirkby Stephen and the surrounding area is a truly depressing sight when Appleby Fair is on. 

Update, a copy and paste from my FB. The “forum” I mention this one, and I refer to Guy’s comments on this thread

“The travellers have already disappeared from my workplace. Discussion elsewhere suggested that they are the same ones that another forum poster has seen and have been through Notts, causing zero trouble and leaving zero mess, always moving on after just a few days. And that has happened in my case (apart from one dollop of horse manure)

I only saw them for a few seconds at a time as I passed by in my car, turning a corner, but a glance they did look like an impossibly bucolic scene of happy kids roaming free, hooped wagons, beautiful horses and cooking outside in the sunshine.

They come to our town each summer to get work cleaning up garden, laying driveways, and roofs, undercutting local businesses, as every time they illegally camp, they don't pay to dispose of waste, and fly tip all the refuge , and move on to another location after being given their one month notice. 

Coincidentaly every time they move into a local area, there are acts of vandalism and thefts just as they move on.

Same script each year, the council and police know it's coming, and secure the areas they use, but somehow boulders appear to 'roll away' , and padlocks and gates  'fall open '  on their own ( according to the police, who when asked, are at a loss to explain this phenomenon ! )  

Interesting article, I must have been mistaken when I saw the one's opposite my workshop taking pry bars to the shuttering on the building whoes yard they camped in, the cctv footage I had must have been the travelers coming over to the van place next door to stop other thieves from robbing stuff off the vans. I wonder if the cctv from a local shopping center where they took over the carpark showed every day folk pulling up to dump skip after skip of rubbish on their temporary camp

Well, if they behave as badly towards each other as they do towards the people who live in the areas they camp in, the problem is far worse that this thread would suggest...

I don’t normally comment on dislikes, but I’d be interested to hear the reasons why this post of mine is getting them - please share!

Yeah but these aren't them.  I have seen plenty of examples around Nottinghamshire who leave mess and cause massive disruption.  This small group were not of that ilk.

Maybe it's because the tone of your post basically defends them and claims they are discriminated against by the authorities and though this is the most Liberal and pc forum ever it rubs people the wrong way.

Like I said somewhere above, there are certainly some great people in the traveling community but the vast majority of my experiences with them have been negative to say the least. Working in the waste water industry I see the damage they do stealing cable and stainless steel from sites every week. I have been accosted by them on site whilst trying to carry out my work (fortunately being a big scary looking bastard it has never come to violence) . I have seen first hand the tons and tons of general waste, shit and building rubble they leave everywhere they go. 

You say they are being discriminated against, I say they do everything they can to live outside the law and that is who conviction rates are low. The only law they respect is the special measures they get with respect to claiming benefits whilst traveling. That is how the wife used to trace them, back track where they were cashing their giros. 

if you want a tarmac drive thinner than an aldi black bag,you know where to go. gypsies have a bad name for a reason.

ive got no time for them. they are not a special group or whatever they call themselves. they are just people who want to take and not give back. they are the lowest , always on the rob and leave an absolute mess everywhere.

we had some pitch up in leek a few years ago on a public car park. you can bet they didn't pay for parking or get fined like we would. they were always thieving out of waitrose opposite and I heard of other stuff going missing.

Thansk for replying.

I’ve been pretty frank upthread in my views.  I think the travelling communities are able to commit far higher levels of crime before the state becomes involved - plenty of examples of this from others.  

Now imagine being their wife or young child, not what I’ve long assumed to be a big hairy biker with a slightly maniac grin. 

I agree - as my link to the nonsense statistic in the independent article shows.  But this is a door that swings both ways - the criminals in their communities experience less justice than the settled community.  But so do the vulnerable in their communities.  

The failure of the state to act against criminals in a minority group is discriminatory against their victims - which often includes a lot of people from that minority group.

I don’t defend the perpetrators of crime from within their communities, but it worries me that basically nobody defends the victims.  Those undefeated children go on to become the next generation of perpetrators.

All I will say is that I was extremely open minded to travellers. Since having endless things stolen from my garage and seeing the farms around here constantly burgled... I'm less open minded.

Just back from my daily stroll along  the GR 65 ( Way of St James ) which is a few minutes down the lane. A passing pilgrim left his mark in the way of the longest, fattest  turd I've ever seen in my life, with a single piece of white tissue capping it for good measure. The path is surrounded by open fields but this wise thinking person had to poop right in the middle of the path ! 

Couple of thoughts for the thread.

Firstly I'd like to reiterate wintertree's thoughtful point in case it has been missed. Travellers are not homogenous. Groups differ (as testimony on here shows) and individuals within groups differ: each group will likely have leaders and followers, bullies and victims. If the criminals amongst the travellers are getting away with crimes against the settled community that ordinary citizens do not, consider then that the victims within the travelling community are also unprotected. Domestic violence - zero tolerance (for the settled) zero intervention (for travellers)?

Secondly. I don't doubt there are higher crime rates amongst travellers than settled people, and it's obvious why: it's because they can get away with it more easily. But not every crime committed when travellers are about is committed by travellers. For sure there are predators within our own communities who will take advantage of the presence of travellers to commit their own crimes, knowing where the finger of blame will fall.

People are people are people: their social interactions are governed by the circumstances they find themselves in. There is undeniably conflict between settled and nomadic, and likely always will be. But surely our task should be to attempt to resolve conflict, not stir it up. In general the tone on here has been rather civilised - thanks to all - and it is civility and mutual respect that will help resolve conflict. It is hard to respect someone who you believe has stolen from your garage and shat in your hedge - but if you were he, you would do what he did. And if he were you, he would be the one choking on the word "respect."

Traditionally there are two solutions to this problem: 1) engagement 2) pogrom.

Let's try to ensure that we do what we can to give 1) a really good go.

That's a very sensible and humane stance. 

Well said Wicamoi. 

Like your Louis McNeice quote too. 

Thank you - but isn't it a Sylvia Plath misquote?

There’s always a third option; the police could actually try policing criminal activity within the traveller community to the same extent as they do the general population. There seems to be an attitude within law enforcement that this wouldn’t be worth the aggro. 

In the late 80’s the powers that be took against the crusty traveller community, they were policed off the roads.

Hi - I would regard your third option as a subset of my first option - engagement.

YouTube footage of ‘the battle of the beanfield’. The police certainly “engaged” with the community that day.

When we had some pull up on land adjacent to ours last year, I found a very stern & concerned email to my MP got things moving very quickly and they were told in most uncertain terms to sling their hook less than 24hrs after arriving.

Give them the benefit of the doubt if you want, but I’m not prepared to take the risk. Look at what happened to Thwaites Brewery recently & you’ll see why people don’t want travellers around. 

Wasn't that a load of music festival goers rather than the traveller community?

My post at 12:44. Crusty travellers, more commonly known simply as ‘crusties’ ; 80’s sub culture, now extinct in the UK.

I would say you're feeling more INAT than NIMBY

No one except yourself on here has offered a pogrom as an option. If you want to "stir it up", that's the way to go.

And your assertion that if I were he, I would steal from someone's garage goes way beyond the cultural need to shit in a hedge (which I understand but don't approve of); you are actually conceding that thieving (which I neither understand nor approve of) is part of a person's nature . If that is so, the problem is much worse than I thought.

Your reply to me explains your position very well, the post with the dislikes Deffinatly has a "the travelers are the victims" vibe to it but the second one does highlight the problem.

I don't see what the police can do about the problem of abuse within their community though. Without proof they can't do anything and by the time proof has been obtained they will be in a different county. If the police make a move before proof is obtained the civil liberties groups will come down on them like a ton of bricks plus evidence will be very hard to obtain due to the travelers refusing to talk to the police. 

There's plenty of crusties living in vans in streets across Bristol. It's an interesting approach to the high cost of housing.

Glad to hear it, I thought they were done for.

I picked my daughter up the other day from a festival.
While I was waiting for them to get their shit together, I went for a wander around.
The amount of crap the festees left behind was astounding!

Not complaining though, I got myself a huge gazebo (only used the once, RRP £280) and 30 odd cans of beer   Could have had loads more if hadn't need to get going.

Your response surprises me: are you suggesting that remembering the terrible occurrences of the past - and obviously regretting them - is somehow rabble-rousing?

We are animals, not angels: thieving is part of all our natures. A bit of humility and circumspection is all it takes to know that what keeps me honest is not my spotless nature, but my upbringing and fortunate circumstances. If I had lived the life of the putative travelling garage thief and hedge-shitter I would likely travel, thieve from garages and shit in hedges. Understanding this commonality makes the world a much friendlier place, and one in which it becomes more natural to build bridges than pick fights.

...and if my Auntie had bollocks he’d be my Uncle.

it’s all well and good blaming upbringing and circumstance but most people try to transcend their origins and not make the same mistakes as their parents when bringing up their own kids. 

I appreciate where you’re coming from but it ignores the fact that some sections of our society (not just travellers) mock the law abiding tax payer and laud a parasitical existence as a fit and proper way to live.

I don't think I am ignoring that at all - and we agree that this is A Bad Thing. But if you accept that given your luck the chances are the parasites would be you, and given theirs the chances are you'd be a parasite, it means that conversation and constructive solutions become at least options. Otherwise you've just got endless, mind-numbing demonisation.

All that sounds great in theory but I’m guessing that you’ve not spent much time interacting with career criminals, if you ever do I wish you luck with the ‘conversation and constructive solutions’.

Edit: typo.

John Wayne will be along shortly to shoot them

OFFS - a stern email to your MP? Really?????????

It worked surprisingly well, which was pleasant. From the original email, with personal details redacted. 

Dear Mr MP,

You may be aware that Travelers have set up camp yesterday evening on the car park of [closed village pub]. 

This is of great concern to me as a resident who lives directly adjacent to the site, not only because of the potential for anti-social behaviour and noise, and the immense stress caused by concern for the safety of our dogs & livestock, but also because there are no sanitation facilities on the site apart from the brook directly behind the car park they are camped on.

The brook runs directly into the [river], which is a SSSI, and we are very concerned that waste (both domestic and human) from the travelers will end up in the brook and onto the [river], affecting the trout, herons, otters and kingfishers, alongside other wildlife, that reside there. Any waste that enters the brook could be disastrous for wildlife, as well as impacting on agricultural land downstream.

As residents in your constituency, my wife and I would like reassurances that this is not going to be a permanent camp, and that they will be moved on as soon as possible to reduce any damage to the wonderful natural environment we are so lucky to live in, as well as reducing the stress this is causing us due to concerns over the safety of our pets, livestock and other personal property.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you wish to discuss this further. 

I had the local councillor round within 2hrs, senior police officers spoken to about it & a delegation of other coppers monitoring the site, and the travellers removed within 24hrs. Seems that MPs do have a use at times. 

Oh well - we knew we'd not change each other's minds! But hey, I've noticed your posts before and while I often slightly disagree with you, nevertheless I like you. And I'm pretty sure that you know as well as I do that the travellers' children are just as beautiful and innocent as our own. 

You’re completely right in attitude, the positive and optimistic generally have a more pleasant journey through life. 

As to disagreeing, this forum wouldn’t be worth a candle if we always agreed and even, occasionally, had our opinions changed.

In reply to elliott92:

Charming. I find it so interesting that it’s considered okay to write about the traveller community in this way, when - for example - to label the Jewish or Pakistani or indeed any other culture/ group in such a way would be considered deeply unacceptable.

Having grown up in a town with a large traveller community I’m the last person to have a romantic view gypsies and I’m perfectly aware of the issues surrounding culture clashes.

However, talking about whole groups of people in this way is just wrong, sorry. Take a look at the history of the treatment of Sinti and Roma to see the problem with labelling people - individuals who may be good, bad or somewhere in between - as thieves, asocials etc etc. 

You piqued my interest. You are right legally; Romany and Irish travellers get legal protection. Interestingly our home-grown Pikeys do not 

I’m a builder and have come across Pikeys quite often, whenever a new project  is about to start for a commercial client. They hold the client to ransom using various pretexts, it’s extortion plain and simple. My favourite was the Pikey who squatted on the site of the future Ricoh arena(which he’d won in a bet). To ensure continuous  occupation he would chain his Mrs to the gas holder by the neck whenever he went out on the lash. Delightful specimen 

In Ireland they are good at keeping them moving and generally make thier lives difficult. Hence, I believe why they come to the UK

Ireland has granted them formal Ethnic Minority status. I don't see how that is going to make their life more difficult.

I agree that talking about whole groups of people in a particular way is wrong.

That's why a statement (not yours) like "thieving is part of all our natures" is simply not true.

You are correct, not all travellers are thieves, 50% are women dragged out of education early and forced into motherhood. 

Talking to Irish friends about this, much of the travellers initial exodus over here was prompted by the fact that their ‘community watch’ is an awful lot more ‘shooty’ than the mainland equivalent.

I think this is why the Irish travellers are much more localised and concentrated in the USA.  Both the feds and the social services seem to treat them less differently thank over here.  http://metrospirit.com/turned-upside-down/

I agree entirely that “talking about whole groups of people in this way is just wrong”. 

Unfortunately, I can’t help but feel the generalised view of the specific community we’re discussing appears to be, more often than not, rather accurate.   

And whilst I’m not childishly suggesting ‘they started it first’, travellers do seem to be quite happy generalising about a group of people they disparagingly refer to as ‘Gorgers’...

TL;DR - inbred criminals finally being convicted, and whinging that they are being stopped from bringing up more children to be in inbred criminals of the future. 

As I said, I’m not defending a whole community because it’s not a homogenous entity. Change your words to “not all pakistanis are rapist taxi drivers, 50% are in forced marriages” you’d be considered racist and rightfully so. But it’s fine to talk about travellers like that..? Weird. I’ve known some good, many rough, they have their problems of course. Fortunately there are no wife beating, thieving WASP types in this country so we can criticise freely eh

Having lived on the route to Appleby for many years I'd say my view point is based on encounters with fair number of their kind. Just because someone is nice to your face in the pub, doesn't mean they won't be round checking you've locked your shed, back door, car etc after dark. I don't really care what-ism you think it is. If there were any decent honest travellers, then they should sort our the other 99.9r% who give them a bad name. 

How kind of them! Performing a public service! 

Irish landhowers , seem to have a much more ' protective' approach to their land. ( just my experience camping over there ) 

Maybe as you say the Irish landowners may have legal access to guns, and might be tempted to shoot first and ask questions later. 

There's also the ones that don't have legal access to guns...

They are not that easy to talk to Guy, I tried to do my usual walk through the public park and found I had walked through the trees and into an illegal traveller's camp, I was immediately verbally attacked ( for walking in a public park) and had people screaming 'pervert' at me . I ignored them and walked my normal route ( which passed their fly tipping pile which remained after they left) There would usually be  quite a few local enjoying that area of the park, that stopped as soon as the traveller's forced their way into they Park.

I wasn’t referring to landowners. Republican and loyalist paramilitaries were more than happy to get involved in issues of community justice when the troubles were at their height. It helped build their fan base and further distanced their own communities from engaging with state law enforcement. A win win as far as they were concerned.

I have only ever come across landowners that ' appeared ' to be legal gun owners.

I have NO experience of anyone who has weapons illegally, so could not comment on those who may or may not have illegal weapons. 

See Stichtplate's reply to you at 1625.

It has been an interesting thread, and I'm surprised that UKC has been quite tolerant of posts criticising traveller's, whereas , if it had been targeted at other minority groups, there would have been a stout defence of those groups( and no doubt a lot of name calling. I wonder why that is. 

Thanks, but I know exactly what he meant, I was just being careful to state that my experience with gun owners was only of with landowners with guns, and I had no knowledge of, or experience with,  any other groups 

seems that the critical posts are of Traveller behaviour, rather than Traveller's per se. As to the lack of defence, stout or otherwise, why do suppose that is?

Exactly a kind of travelling neighbour watch scheme. If you haven't nailed it down, they presume you've left it out for them and kindly take it off your hands.

There was criticism of their culture with regard to where they dispose of their personal waste.  

So? Any culture that deems shitting in a hedge or in the goal mouth of a football pitch (as they did in our village, the filthy vermin) to be preferable to using a toilet & proper sanitation is utterly attrocious. 

You’re perfectly entitled to your opinion of course, and are wise to be careful around travellers as many are indeed shady characters who will rob you. I’m not naive and don’t drink, so don’t think i’ve been deceived by a kind word at the pub or whatever you were implying.

I grew up in a town where the travellers are a fixed feature in the community. Not on the jolly to a fair. My point was a general ethical one: it’s wrong and dangerous to castigate a whole group with simple pejorative descriptions when they are people too. Especially in these times of tension and discord it behoves us all to be a little more careful with our language.

case in point: i’ve been burgled by lovely English white lads on the gear. Would I call all working class people scum? Nope. Hate all heroin addicts? No, they’re people too, with their own reasons and chances of redemption. 

As I say, i’m not criticising you personally, I understand totally how the behaviour of many travellers is negative to others. My point is that I don’t like seeing the lazy ‘I hate pikeys’ stereotype and also that it’s really interesting to me that this is still deemed socially acceptable in a way that collective tarring of other groups is not. 

If shitting outdoors is supposed to be a manifestation of "culture", you have lost me....

Genuinely hoping this is a joke, given the crap that we as climbers and we as settled people everywhere frequently leave. I found a McDonald’s wrapper at nesscliffe the other day: people who drive cars are clearly utter scumbags, their culture disgusts me etc.

I am probably the culprit who brought up this aspect of their culture. 

To cite litterlouts (Tom L) as an example of non gypsy culture is completely disingenuous, since none of us on UKC and, I hope, the broader community defend it as "part of our culture"

When gypsies and their supporters stop excusing their toilet habits and their propensity for taking other people's property, then that's the time British and European mainstream communities are likely to "engage"with them.

Well, some would say the reason is that they're the last ethnic group who it's acceptable to be racist about: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/11/racism-travellers-gyp...

This is the annual UKC gypsy/traveller thread.....it follows a similar set of opinions and values of the previous threads. The last one began by someone stating there were loads of travellers on a field in Macclesfield.....in fact there were about 6-7 vans for a week, they left and had bagged up their litter. It was actually far less litter than the local dope smoking/drinking youth left on the field most nights.

Ive actually avoided the thread as the language, like last time is awful....not quite as bad as last time where all travellers were labelled as 'vermin', 'scum' and such forth. Somehow this seems to be acceptable to many, sadly.

I said on the previous thread; my experience of gypsy/travellers has mostly been good. There are bad elements, like in any society/community, but there is also good.

During the first Gulf war I was posted in the area historically disputed between Iraq and the Kurds. I spent a long time with gypsy/traveller folk who were the most hospitable and generous people I ever met.....sadly, like here, they were referred to as vermin and scum by the Iraq military and had been horribly brutalised and persecuted for many years.

Many phrases and views on this thread makes me despair...

Hardly disingenuous, as travellers living on sites are not leaving their shit everywhere. Not denying it's a problem with many and for many, but as stated before it seems oh so easy to tar everyone in the gypsy community with the same brush.

My point was not disingenuous because I pointed out how unfair that would be if we turned the same standards on ourselves or communities closer to home. I have nearly trod on turds on crags all over the country - whether you say we defend it or not it seems that many climbers or walkers are happy to shit under boulders and leave it for others. Yet I would never say that climbers are disgusting people, because it's not true is it, some do it and some don't, I take people as I find them and try not to collectively group or judge.

Similarly, I'm always amazed by the quantity of rubbish I see everywhere, whether in cities or on main roads or even in the mountains. Where does all that litter come from? It's a byproduct of our way of living and the attitude and behaviour of people: that is the very definition of culture. All that rubbish l up at Everest (apparently, never been there): all gypsies is it? Or are we happy to turn a blind eye to all that stuff? Why is it that if I said all people from Liverpool were scallies because I got mugged in Liverpool and there is loads of broken glass at Pex I;d be rounded on, but saying all travellers are pikeys and thieves is okay? The hypocrisy just boggles my mind.

Thanks for this, you've put my thoughts and feelings into words in a better way than I could and restored some of my hope for human decency.

"We don't want gypsies in our town

Get out d'you hear? Get out!

We don't want gypsies in our town

They're not the sort we want around 

Up to no good we'll be bound

Get out d'you hear? Get out!

That's what the average man will say

It's in the papers everyday

Keep them out. Keep our town clean

Let's keep it like it's always been

We'll just forget we're Christian men

until they're on the road again . . .

Get out! D'you hear? Get out!

Echoing the sentiments of Thwaites staff a few weeks ago. 

It's ok if they're raggle taggle gypsies

Again, your (indirect) response puzzles me.

When I wrote to you "thieving is part of all our natures" I was (very clearly) referring not to "whole groups of people" but to all humans. My point was that it is not just travellers who have the capacity to thieve, but all of us. We're only animals, and like all animals we look after ourselves in the way that best suits us. And whether or not you think that "talking about whole groups of people in a particular way is wrong," this has absolutely no relevance to whether my claim that thieving is part of human nature is true or not. If you don't think it is true, why not say so, and make an argument to support your assertion?

You may be a moral paragon, without sin, but if so, you aren't human. Sometimes we cheat, we lie, we steal, and we commit adultery, but we are social animals, we need each other, and thus mostly we love and are generous, loyal, honest and kind. And by "we" I mean you, me, the travellers and any other group of people you care to mention.

You only have to read elliot92's post to see where it all goes wrong - and for every elliot92 of the settled, there is a gypsy92 of the travellers.

If we don't stop demonising each other, we won't stop demonising each other... and we will all be losers.

I see so it's because they are demonised, that they use village greens as toilets, chop locks off farmers gates to graze their horse regardless of crop damage, break into umpteen local shops, peoples a sheds, shop lift from the village shop, dump 2 skips worth of rubbish by the kids play ground, stealing locals animal feed or even their horses, chop down anything that is wood for their fire etc etc..  I suppose we should be grateful as some years they leave the farmers gates behind and don't either burn them or sell them for scrap metal. 

They are demonised, because their actions have been the same year after year after year.  

If you would read my earlier posts you would see that I acknowledge there are genuine problems. You are well aware of many bad stories about travellers, and, I assume, well aware that not all travellers are criminal. Nevertheless we have people on here saying they hate all pikeys. It doesn't take much imagination to see that in the travellers' camps there are people who have bad experience of settled folk, and who say they hate all of them, and who believe that they are doing something positive for their community by stealing from you. 

If both cultures demonise each other, there is no solution. If we build bridges, in all the small ways that are available to us, we increase the chance of a solution. Not saying it's easy.

I don't think it is true that all people are thieves by nature but I don't have an argument to back that up. I'm sorry if that puzzles you.

What puzzles me is having to defend my opinion in the first place.

I actually missed out all the crimes they commit because although rare rurally, they are often committed by non gypsies in towns and cities.

Build bridges? You are joking, they don't want to be part of UK society etc... they don't want to pay tax, don't respect the law, don't want to educate their kids, don't want to be held responsible for their actions.. and so on. You can be as pc, caring and as inclusive as you like, they don't want a bridge, unless it is metal, can be quickly unbolted and fits on the back of transit flat bed. 

We can go back and forth here from general principle of respect and tolerance to your examples of individual negative actions until the cows come home, but I would say we’re probably at an impasse: I say not all travellers are bad, you say they are, and that’s that.

just to bring this back to the OP and paraphrase what’s actually happened:

”travellers have rocked up, what should I expect?”

”lock up everything, buy a rotty and a shotgun and stay up all night as they are thieving rats”

”they’ve gone, and left pretty much no trace”

”all gypsies are vermin etc etc.”

See what i’m saying?

“they don't want a bridge, unless it is metal, can be quickly unbolted and fits on the back of transit flat bed.”

If UKC had a golden buzzer, I’d be pressing it, right now. 

I'd agree 1 or 2 are probably embarrassed by the actions of the vast majority. But no amount of fluffy words from non gypsies will change their behaviour. So if gypsies overall want respect from main stream UK society, then it should start with them respecting the same laws. They have groups and societies but there is no interest in sorting out their own problems, it always someone elses fault. They did not break the kids play ground they just happened to park on top of for a week, that farmers gate was left open and their stock escaped, some one else dumped that rubbish to make us look bad etc.. etc  I've heard it all before. That is of course when the police even turn up. 

99.9%..

0.1% of the time.

Baby, bath water.

Maybe you should come stay in Stourport for a bit, it’s not a paradise of pluralism by any means but the settled and traveller communities do interact and live side by side. Our playgrounds seem fine, apart from the broken glass and piles of rubbish left by visiting brummies and yam-yams (or in your words, “99.9% of people from the Black Country and BC are disgusting scum, if they want respect from us shire folk they really need to sort out their lives” etc.) and travellers kids go to school, in fact I even managed to be friends with a few would you believe! Not saying there aren’t problems, never said that, but the fact that you acknowledge that some don’t fit in with the stereotype surely means that saying “all gypsies are thieving pikey vermin” is inherently wrong, the same as saying all Irish are..., or all black people are..., or all climbers are... is equally unfair.

edit: just to add, you say “fluffy words”, whereas i’m talking about core principles for life. Respect and tolerance are not fluffy, they are basic values that underpin multi-cultural and diverse society. Just because a group - in your opinion - does not fulfil their obligations as part of a community does not mean that ‘we’/ other groups then get to ignore fundamental tenets of liberal respect. If you want to see where that road leads take a good look at history or contemporary treatment of gypsies in places like Hungary. 

Not directly aimed at you but for everyone who thinks that settled communities are paragons of wonderful cleanliness. People in glass houses...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/23/uks-plastic-waste-may-b...

In general I am sympathetic to what you have to say, but this bit puzzles me:

On what planet is stealing from me a positive thing for the traveller community?

The lad I spoke to (see upthread) and his siblings were malnourished and the only meat they got was anything they hunted or poached themselves - including small livestock.  

I suspect most posters on here would have considered poaching or scrumping to feed them and their siblings if their parents and the state failed to feed them.

Likewise. I try to steer clear of the annual UKC backslapping prejudice fest, it's an unedifying spectacle and not worth the aggravation.

jk

"[travellers] who say they hate all of them [the settled community], and who believe that they are doing something positive for their community by stealing from you"

No mention in Wiccamoi's post about poaching as a necessary thing to avoid starvation (which I would do if I had to)

Word. I think my feelings are clear, I’ll be off now.

Stourport is possibly the only place in existence that could be improved by travellers crapping all over it. 

Yep. This thread is a good example of the reason I generally answer “I’m aware of it but I’m not registered on it.” when a stranger asks me if I’m on ukc.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what the settled gypsies of Stourport feel about visits from Irish travellers. (Or did you mean settled non -gypsy community)?

When my local council proposed developing a site on the edge of our village for the benefit of travellers passing through, some of the most vociferous opponents were the settled Roma in the village.

Fair enough. 

Hmmn, you're either being subtly insulting or very straight forward.   With written text being all we have to go on on here, I do rather think how you felt about talking to them may have coloured how you thought I was coming across, with tone of voice, body language, and cadence all being absent from online discussions.  Our own state colours how we interpret things.

Regards, back.

You've been overthinking this one, leading to incorrect speculation

Which underlines the subjectivity of online communication. I didn't say anything negative about you, and you thought I was coming across as passive aggressive. Why you thought that is a mystery to me, which (from my perspective) means it's something to do with the prism of your interpretation of what was posted.

You've not actually said why you felt I was coming across as passive aggressive - I'd not said anything negative about you, or expressed any ill feeling, I'd simply said I'd go and be agreeable to the travellers (or see about being)...

Genuine question, I am neither having a go at you nor intentionally patronising you, so here goes:
 You are quite hard work so I wonder, do you sometimes struggle with comprehension? I'm going to quote myself here but remove a few words for clarity. 

I said you'd managed to COME ACROSS as "[...] passive-aggressive [...]". That is quite different to CALLING you "[...] passive-aggressive [...]"

Here is an example of how to comprehend such a comment:  When I posted a review of the MCU Black Panther film, I said I struggled to keep up with bits of it and it all got confusing. Another poster said that I was coming across as being thick. He wasn't CALLING me thick, and I was not insulted.

Yeh nice one mate, your prejudice seems to come in many forms.

DY til I die. Wyre forest forever.

Maybe you're actually thicker than you think you are and he was indeed calling you thick...

Interesting question, last time we had Irish travellers from outside settle on the riverside for a bit there was some friction, a few rumbles in town but nothing too serious. Again, another illustrative point that it’s not a homogenous community. As for why there was conflict i’m not best placed to say, would need to talk to them!

You are right, he was! It was deepsoup:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/culture_bunker/february_film_thread-67883...

And as you can see, I took it in good spirits instead of feeling victimised....  

Apologies, Timmd,  for my poor memory and incorrect use of that one as an example of what I'd tried to illustrate. 

Stourport is seemingly a breeding facility for Jeremy Kyle. I drive through there once or twice a month (unless I can avoid it & go via Bewdley), and it’s blatantly obvious that it’s a chav-ridden hovel. If it wasn’t for Allcocks, there’d be no reason at all to stop off there. 

Of course it is mate, it’s full of people well beneath your level of class and dignity. Well done for getting such insight from your twice monthly commutes through my hometown of 30+ years, you must be incredibly perceptive. 

I live less than 10 miles away (on the other side of the river), and as a child, I spent many an hour in TP Toys, wandering along the river & playing on the park/in that shallow pool thing. However, it doesn’t take much to see how much of an utter dump it is nowadays. 

Blimey. Do you write for 'The Daily Mash'? ;p

Totally agreed that gypsies are not a homogenous community, but to defend the worst aspects of one part of that culture (the things that cause most offence among a country's mainstream society) on the grounds that it's an accepted and even essential /justified part of their lifestyle will do absolutely nothing to help them fit in. 

If our society can change and accept things that were outrageous, illegal even, half a century ago then unless traditional traveller culture can show a similar willingness to adapt, they will not be able to get along with the rest of "us.

No kidding. I grew up here until I was 18, went off to uni in Sheffield then Bangor, came back, started my own family in Worcester and am now temporarily back before I move elsewhere for work. I’d suggest that maybe age is colouring your perception: Stourport hasn’t changed that much and I have had many many nice days out with my kids in those self same parks. Shame TP toys has gone but hey no. It’s a little rough around the edges for sure but there are some good people here, some nice walks, even a decent bit of climbing close by if you know where to look. If anything it’s got less rough: the Walshes isn’t as scary as it used to be, the high street is holding up better than expected and there is less fighting - see hope & anchor for evidence. I find your depiction of my hometown inaccurate compared to my experiences but I guess it all depends on who’s looking and what they’re looking for. 

All fine, but I’ve never made the argument you’re critiquing. Anyone is welcome to criticise anyone all they want, but I believe it best to avoid using the worst examples to exemplify a community of around 100,000 people and loaded terms to describe a whole group: the term vermin in particular is resonant and always makes me think “the eternal gypsy” must be coming to a cinema near me soon 

You weren't the one who justified the worst behaviour. But imagine if your village had been plagued by several visits showing the worst excesses; in a situation like that, being told that this is not typical behaviour will take some swallowing.

Some people make no judgement; some make a judgement based on hearsay and anecdote; and some make one based on their own experience. I wish I could be part of the first group but I can't.

And, as regards your Eternal Jew allusion, in spite of some of the immoderate language used on here, I suspect that most UKC ers would rather see the gypsy population assimilated rather than annihilated.

Bloody hell Tom - that's three times you've responded to me and three times you've misrepresented me. Congratulations on your hatrick and all that, but gonnae no do that?

I did not say "all people are thieves by nature" - I said "thieving is part of all our natures" meaning - clearly from the original context - that we all have the capacity to thieve, which is a very different thing from "all people are thieves by nature."

Anyway, let's continue to be puzzled by each other, it's fun. Best wishes.
 

Hi Andy - yes, I was writing in a rush this morning, and could have been clearer. What I was getting at is that people generally have a justification for their crimes - whether the rest of society agrees with their justification is another matter. 

I was trying to imagine what it is like to be a traveller. I guess they have long-memories of past persecution. I guess they also have a lot of recent experience - from the more extreme wing of the general anti-traveller view we've seen expressed here - of violence from the settled. And even if they haven't experienced violence, then likely they've experienced a lot of hostility (if this thread is anything to go by there really can't be any doubt about that). So I imagine that many travellers have a lot of ill-feeling toward the settled, and that they feel under threat.

My guess is that the travellers that commit petty crime against settled communities justify themselves by thinking of the crime as a blow against their oppressors, a triumph for their own people. Demonise the enemy, and anything can be justified. (See also extreme muslim terrorism etc).

Of course it would be ridiculous for them to think that if they were stealing from a decent chap like you - but such individuals, I guess, don't discriminate between the good and bad that exists in all communities, but instead imagine the settled population to be both homogeneous and malign.

In short, they are just like us, but on the other team.
 

I totally understand that, and have said throughout that i’m not blinkered to the problems experienced by many. Were travellers to pitch up on the trading estate where my dad has a unit I would definitely advise him to double check everything was locked, nothing liftable left outside. My point is that to go from that experience based judgement to saying every single last traveller is a wrongun is a leap, and a dangerous one at that, because intolerance demeans us all.

so when push comes to shove, you would advise you Dad to take maximal measures rather than giving the benefit of the doubt?

Obviously, I’m not idealistic. As i’ve said repeatedly, there are lots of issues with the behaviour of many travellers. There are lots of issues with the behaviour of many people of all different stripes. If a group of shady heroin users moved in close to my mum i’d advise her to make doubly sure to keep the doors locked. Certainly doesn’t mean i’d call all heroin users vermin/ scum etc. because no doubt that generalisation would be unfair to some and ends up dehumanising what are at the end of the day people too. It’s a simple point, where exactly is the hypocrisy you are trying to suggest with your comment?

What a load of hogwash. I really cant be bothered to unpack all this victim blaming nonsense so I'll let someone else have fun with that but your comments can't go unchallenged. Hopefully someone with patience and time will be able to articulate the very many things wrong with this post.

Right back at you! Seriously, I don't know if it's just your posting style, but often your posts come across as ambigous or deliberately awkward. And from the way I've seen some people responding to your posts over the years I don't think I'm the only one who finds this.

Well I suppose that murder and rape are also "part of all our natures" since we all have the innate capacity to perform such acts but the thought doesn't lie easy with me,

I wish you could, because at the moment I can see which team you play for, but not a lot else. You could start by reading it again and thinking about it though - for a start I haven't blamed anyone. Could it be that the situation is all a bit more nuanced than you find comfortable to think about, given that you've already picked sides? Why else would a post exploring (not justifying) possible motivation in some travellers rile you so? 

I haven't picked a side in this fight. I think there are good and bad, victims and perpetrators, rabble-rousers and peacemakers on both sides. Most conflicts look a bit like that if you don't have to pick a side. 

Maybe there is no resolution to this conflict. It may be naive of me to imagine that it's worth a shot at bridge-building. But shouting louder for your side certainly won't resolve a conflict, though it might lead to victory. As I stated in my first post though - beware of what victory might mean.

For once we are in complete agreement.

I honestly don't think there is any benefit in bridge building. The 'travellers' being discussed in this thread are essentially criminal gangs who use their lifestyle and claims of 'racism' to avoid prosecution.

They operate in exactly the same way as the criminal gangs who infest the inner cities, using violence and intimidation to target the vulnerable. This is totally unacceptable in a civilised society.

If 'victory' is simply ensuring the law is applied equally to all elements of society then I don't see what the issue is. (Cue whataboutery).

I'll give responding a go.

This just isn't true.  Having known people who committed lots of crimes the "justification" in many cases was that it was fun.  An old mate used to nick cars to get home after going out drinking (not when I was with him).  He did it because he wanted to get home quickly, there wasn't a single thought for the owner of the car.

You're assuming that they think like you.  Why can't they just not give a crap about the "settled community"?  Why assume that they have a mindset that views themselves as put upon?

As above, your assumption that they think a justification is necessary is just wrong.  They can just as well do it because it benefits them and because they do not care for the people that are harmed.  Do you really those who attack/take advantage of old people have decided those old people deserve it, rather than just that they're an easy mark?

Or the people who commit these crimes are not at all like "us" (not "the settled community" which frankly doesn't exist, there are lots of separate communities) in that they see nothing wrong with committing the crimes.

Not with the one's who turn up around here every year, they leave all sorts of junk behind  including a burnt out car last year. And they shit all around the area, without any attempt to bury it.

Sadly the stereotype is true of the people we get to deal with.

That is a fair comment.

Would not go so far as to say hypocrisy on your part, merely that when it comes to it (in the example you provide of travellers rocking up on your Dad's trading estate)you would not give the benefit of the doubt to such as those. For what it's worth, neither would I.

Experience has taught me to be cautious with people in general, but I try to maintain the hope that we can all treat each other with respect as individuals and collectives. I fear the alternative and believe I need to uphold these values for both my sake and society in general. 

I hope it's obvious that I am all in favour of the law being applied equally: that would be a victory of a kind - but not the sort that comes from shouting loudest and refusing to countenance alternative views or accept that diversity exists amongst the people known as travellers.

I don't agree with your claim that the people being talked about on this thread are the mobile criminal gangs. The people being talked about on this thread are "travellers" in general - and these are being conflated with the mobile criminal gangs. As for the criminal gangs themselves - let the full force of the law fall upon them. All I'm arguing against is pre-judice. 

I recall there was a man who posted on here who was of traveller stock. I forget his name. He had a lot of interesting things to say. I met him by chance at a crag one time and I would very happily have trusted him with the keys to my house. I don't think he posts any more. Perhaps he saw one too many of the thoughtless anti-traveller posts on here and thought to hell with the lot of ye. Could you blame him?
 

Hi thomas - I don't really disagree with you, actually. (Which is quite unusual!)

I was not setting out a model of how all criminal travellers think - that would be ridiculous. I was asked how a traveller might think that stealing could be good for his community, and I tried to explain how. I am not suggesting that all criminal travellers think this way. But whenever there is strong us versus them feeling, such motivations naturally emerge.

I was using "settled community" as a convenient shorthand, rather obviously, and you'll forgive me if I continue to do so I hope. I agree that there are certainly plenty of criminals in the settled community who are blase about their crimes (your friends for example), and I daresay there are plenty of travellers who are the same. All agreed.

Not sure any of this argues against my "just like us, but on the other team" soundbite, though does it? (Sorry about the lazy team analogy by the way).
 

I used to be ( retired) a director of a civils  company and everytime we were working near a travellers camp thieving went through the roof. Tools even on one occasion a 20ft container with £60K of drilling equipment. Police will not go onto travellers sites, but once at Bluewater they stole a mini digger from the site compound. The police would do nothing but the contractor for whom we were working happened to be Irish. In the words of the contract director ( not my own) “no f*cking pikeys are having our gear”. They burst through the site gates mob handed and reclaimed said digger. Result. Excellent!

I got the shit kicked out of me by a group of gypsies back in March, but I'm still with Tom Loughlin, Jkarren, Wicamoi etc...

Clumping people together and judging them as if they were one is a mug's game.

I have a good friend who grew up in a traveller community. He's a thoroughly decent bloke and is now a mountain guide.

But yeah, don't leave your bike in the garden!

Yeah, but in the words of the immortal Ian Dury, "Imagine finding one in your laundry basket."

Ian Dury was strongly anti-racist. Check the lyrics of Blackmail Man. 

Been hit with a rhythm stick?

You may be entitled to Ian Dury compensation. 

Cool. Two dislikers disagree.

Radio 4 now .....

Thanks, I am a bit late but got it on now