UKC

I was hanging out at my workplace, tucked away in the back of a trading estate, as I'm working on a bed for my camper there this evening, when an Irish guy knocked on the door. It's saturday, gone 6, we're a web company so not even open to the public and our unit number isn't online.. 

I felt this quite strange, anyway he asked if I could make a sign for his van, something we don't do. He then asked me a tonne of money related questions about my new VW Caddy, including asking if he could buy it off me, for what I paid plus he would give me his van.. 

He eventually left but I honestly felt a little sick in the stomach. The whole thing felt off, and the last time that happened in my early 20's I since found out I was being primed to be roped into a Tarmac'ing ring. I've had plenty of strange people come to the door before but this one just felt off. 

Does anyone know if this sounds like some sort of scam they've heard of or if there's any precautions I should take, as he may have been snooping for something nefarious. 

Thanks. 

I'd certainly not be leaving your van there overnight.

He's probably been having a look at the whole trading estate..  then saw yours was occupied and pretended to have a legitimate excuse to be there. 

I'd tell anyone else you know in the other buildings. 

You should set up a messenger or WhatsApp group of all the owners, so if one of you sees something dodgy, you can immediately share it. 

It does sound rather strange. Random people turning up and asking 'odd ball' questions happened a little bit at my childhood home when people were checking to see if there was anybody at home, it being the last in a row and secluded made it more vulnerable and we had 3 break ins or attempted break ins.  I had somebody ask me where the local student halls were, and on impulse I watched to see if they went in the direction I told them to go in, and saw them go the opposite way, and another time a couple came up the drive and asked my Mum for directions to a none existent place. I suggested she should have offered them a lift to put them on the spot, it could have been fun. 

summo's idea is a good one, as is not leaving anything of value around as far as you can do. There's always people out to find out what you haven't double checked.

What on Earth is a “tarmac’ing ring”? 

Irish and some welsh (and I’m sure everywhere else) have been known to run tarmac companies using down and out folk essentially in modern slavery, they offer you a place to live then never pay you properly saying they’re keeping it as rent. Look it up if you’re bored this evening, Interesting reading. 

It’s like a paedophile ring, but for those who like getting their ass felt...

When people turn up, tarmac your driveway and demand payment for it. Allegedly.

And its so thin the grass come's up 3 weeks later.

Okay, never heard of that, blimey! 

One or two traveller sites have been raided over the past few years where immigrants and down at heal people have been found to have been living in pretty squalid conditions and on poor diets, for a number of years in some cases. It's pretty awful.  

Resurfacing of roundabouts, obvs.

On a serious note, in addition to Summo's suggestions, it may be worth mentioning it to the Police. Yes, they're probably overstretched like all forces and won't put it at the top of their list but even if they manage to do 2 or 3 drive-throughs of the trading estate then that may be enough to make any ne'er-do-wells look elsewhere. 

Have you never heard of the answer, "I'm busy, f*ck off pal"

What a load of attention seeking drivel.

So yeh me in my socks in a dark warehouse entrance at the back of a trading estate, alone, at dusk, is going to tell a lively, hench bloke who’s just turned up and has someone else in the car to ‘f*ck off’ - I’d say that’s such a dense reply to this thread it is you who is looking for the attention. 

I always go with a gut feeling. If the estate doesn't have CCTV I would get some pronto. And a massive f*ck off dog too.

Thanks for the replies. Have locked the main gates, staying here tonight just incase, machetes duct taped to each arm just to be safe. Probably nothing but I’ve never come away from an interaction feeling nauseous before so took the unusual step to consult the hive mind. 

Unless you really know what your doing with those machetes, I'd suggest going home, with the van, and deal with the insurance company if anything happens. 

I’m surprised he didn’t offer you magic beans.  I still recall a similar chap pressuring me to give him the go ahead to tarmac a works yard that I had the job of weeding in the late 90s.

It’s moments like that where you realise how close you are in terms of a poor choice of works to a kill or be killed situation.  

20 years later I’ve seen a few such cases play out in the media and locally and don’t think that defending myself is wise - in the unlikely event I didn’t loose, relatives of the scum are then likely to come after my family.  

Only person I know who got the better of them, after a dodgy tarmac job, had to shove a shotgun in one of their face's. He's got a crazy enough personality to convince anyone not to argue. 

so Amey are a tarmac’ing ring!

what about - "The van is my boss's - he's off today doing an Iron Man event with his TA SAS unit . but he's back an hour or two later tonight if you want to meet him? - Mind you He's been a bit grumpy with strangers since his deployment though, he's not one to get on the wrong side of ..."

His nationality has nothing to do with your interaction other than whatever prejudices you hold......

I wondered if someone might say that.

And going by the likes /dislikes, it seems that even liberal/lefty ukc thinks that some prejudices may be justifiable.

I find this a very difficult area. I want to treat everyone fairly and equally, but only a fool would ignore previous experiences. 

I have a similar experience to relate.  Hope yours doesn't turn out similarly.

A few years ago the software company I was working for located to a unit on the edge of a trading estate in Washington, Tyne and Wear. A couple of weeks after we moved there a car stopped in the car park, and a couple of guys got out. They popped the hood and made a display of checking under the bonnet. It looked suspicious so I went outside and confronted them. They said their car was overheating and they were checking it. They got back in and drove off. It was obviously bollocks and I managed to get their plate number as they drove off.

That weekend we were broken into and several Sun workstations taken. Police confirmed that they'd obviously been chasing the joint.  They dusted everything for prints (none had been left), and checked the licence plate (the car proved to be stolen). The boss's response, at the suggestion of the police, was to protect the door with a grill secured with a "£1000" lock. Next weekend they returned and pulled the grate off (thus nearly avoiding the world's most expensive lock).  Fortunately the new workstations hadn't arrived so they had to make do with phones and printers.

Next solution was to spend about 20k on a high tech security system which was hooked up to the local cop shop (with whom we were now on first name terms with and had a standing invite to the Policeman 's Ball).  It also released some sort of smoke that was supposed to confuse would be blaggers (!).  Unfortunately, you only had about 20s to open the door and disarm the system, which wasn't long enough for one of the more doddery employees.  Third day he was first in, he failed to enter the code quick enough, so the system went off, calling the cop shop and releasing the smoke - which meant he couldn't see well enough to enter the code correctly for several minutes - by which time 3 plod squad cars had turned up.  They weren't pleased. They were even less pleased when he did the same thing again a few days later.  They regretfully informed us that they could no longer respond to any automated call outs from our premises, and that the Policeman 's Ball invitate was rescinded.

Next weekend they returned.  Alarm went off, but there was no-one to hear it and all the smoke had been used up in the two false calls.  The new workstations had arrived a couple of days before, which they duly liberated as before.  This was especially distressing to me personally - as sys admin I'd spent the last two days setting them up and restoring from backup and what-not. 

The boss (finally!) decided we had to move.  In the meantime he hired a security firm to provide a permanent out of hours presence in the form of a minimum waged,  short, middle aged, tubby bloke (I'd be a dead ringer for him now).  Next weekend they returned.  On encountering "The Security" they deployed a counter offensive in the form of baseball bats.  Mr Blobby ( wisely) locked himself in the boss's glass office and made a big show of not using the telephone or doing anything else that could be construed in any way hindering their activities.

We left the delights of Washington New Town before the next weekend, ending up in city centre offices in Newcastle.  This was preferable in many many ways - handy access to Eldon sq. bouldering wall, more and better pubs, easier to get to, sharing the premises with clearly richer (thus theoretically more blaggable) businesses, less likely to get clubbed to death if you worked late....

That's not very nice.

Perhaps its less racist than identifying the caller as a traveller/gypsy 

I know this has been mentioned already and I'm not having a pop here, or accusing anyone of racism or anything like that, but this thread makes me feel a little uneasy because of the identification of the person as Irish, particularly as my partner and many friends and family are Irish.   

Just try something, replace the word "Irish" with "Black" and reread it.  How would this make you feel?  

That said, it does sound well dodgy and the guy was probably up to no good, I just don't think the fact that he was Irish had any relevance to the story, so you could have probably left that out?

I'll probably get a tonne of dislikes for this but I think it's worth taking it if it just makes some people have a think.  Even if they decide I'm wrong a little self-analysis is never bad!

You are mixing up xenophobia and racism. Two different meanings.

Difficult isn’t it.  

Perhaps we should have a specific term for people of Irish heritage who travel around the UK in a community with a well evidenced reputation for all sorts of criminality from some of its members, including drive laying scams.  The Irish people I know certainly consider themselves to have no shared cultural identity with this other community.

No, I'm not.

The United Nations use the definition of racial discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, adopted in 1966:

... any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. (Part 1 of Article 1 of the U.N. International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination)[88]

Yeah it is difficult, I agree totally.

We were very nearly victim to some scammers when we had a problem with our roof (long story, nearly ended up paying hundreds for a 5 minute job) but then there's some Irish travellers who live down our road who are great, always stop and say hello and are always there if you need help.

I think it's just important to not tar (no pun intended) all Irish people, traveller or otherwise, with the same brush because of a few who get up to these things.  

I don’t think so. It’s relevant to the situation. 

What if it had been a group of black teenagers in east London, poking around on a closed industrial estate. 

Black or Irish are descriptions relative to the story. Had it been a well spoken white English man nosing round a trading estate in Bristol asking probing questions, on a Saturday it would have been just as relevant. 

Sorry but can you tell me why the fact that the guy was Irish is relevant because I really don't see it?

The fact that the guys is Irish may be accurate information, but so is what colour underpants he was wearing, but neither of these have got anything to do with the fact he was acting suspiciously around the OPs place of work.

Would you feel better if your imaginary group of teenagers were white then?  Do you hold any prejudices against people of certain minorities?  

The ethnicity of someone is part of their description. 

Someone else in Bristol may have had the same man nosing around. Or maybe there are a group of them of a similar description. 

Is describing him as a man sexist?

Ok, I get that.  I mean if the OP was giving a full description of the person so that we can be on the lookout - y'know 6'4" medium build, brown hair etc then it indeed would be relevant, and I wouldn't have raised any question regarding the post whatsoever.

But no, we just got Irish bloke, it doesn't aid our identification of the person at all.  Or maybe if anyone sees anyone Irish hanging around anywhere then that's probably our man?  There's not many Irish people after all.

I’m not sure it would be anyone Irish. Just the men, and then only those asking uncomfortable questions about vans in Bristol. 

Whilst in an ideal world you'd be correct, (and in the OPs case it might have been best left out of the post), you'd have to be incredibly stupid to get involved in any conversation whatsoever regarding vehicles, tools, equipment, dogs, livestock or old ladies needing building work doing with any member of the travelling community.

As others have said if you were giving a description to the police or other property owners then accent, skin colour, age, height, hair colour etc are all useful.

Somehow though starting his accent in a post doesn't quite feel right. It sounds like his behaviour was quite suspicious enough without you needing to share this info and given that few of us are local to you a description to warn us to be on our guard is somewhat irrelevant. 

You are.

You know what? Funny thing, a Black Man did just the same with me 

póg mo thóin

That's a great comeback to my quote from the UN definition there mate, you've really slayed me with that one...  

Avoid fights at all costs. You might get killed. Or, almost as bad, kill some one. Where did you get the machetes? 

No, no, no, try replacing it with the word “Tall” and reread it.

its a f*cking adjective. Get over yourself!

Indeed but seeing as we're all dissecting the story context is everything. Near where I live we are infamous in certain parts for people rich in travelling culture. Or more accurately, we are notorious for having the highest population of now static 'travellers' known for doing very little in the way of legal work and causing a proper nuisance to the rest of us. Having a weird semi Irish accent would be a good starting identifier.

I don't think Donny was being entirely serious about the machetes...

That said, you and wintertree are correct. There is no way getting involved in a fight with a criminal, particularly from the travelling community, will ever end well for you. 

That would be a great point, if tall people had been wrongfully discriminated against because of their height for centuries meaning that height is now a protected characteristic, but they haven’t, so it’s not.

So what protected characteristic are we talking about here?

I'm guessing you've been fortunate enough not to have stuff disappear, just by coincidence when a group of persons of no fixed abode were in the area. 

I'd recommend a weekend in the quaint rural village of Appleby early next summer. 

Membership of the All Oireland Caravan Club...

Your a offensive fool.

No I just lived on the route to Appleby for many years. 

neither of which prevent you from being a fool or offensive

They've more than fairly earned their reputation in the dales. Most folk won't have a good word said about them. 

I suspect ignorance is bliss in your case. You should be grateful, some unlucky folk have them as neighbours. 

Careful now

I can’t be bothered with this thread anymore. I’ve already supplied the UN definition of racism so I feel like I’ve said all there is to be said on this.

Like I said, I’m not accusing anyone of prejudice or racism, but I think it’s useful for us all (and I definitely include myself in this) to indulge in a little self reflection.

Ask ourselves are we guilty of unconscious bias against a certain group? Something we do without realising? 

if you’re happy then you don’t then that’s all good, it’s just useful to have a think sometimes.

I can assure you that I am not, in any way, guilty of unconscious bias against gypsies.

Having had many dealings with groups of them over the years, my bias is completely intentional.

I wondered how long it would take for this thread to turn in to the annual anti Irish traveller rant. It'll get worse if the last few years are anything to go by.....a lot of the comments and prejudice turns my stomach every year....

I have extremely limited personal experience of the travelling community.

I did sell a van to a man with an Irish accent who, having failed to convince me that my drive, windows, roof and wall needed fixing, suddenly expressed an interest in my vehicle.

It was a 1990’s Fiat Motorhome which was rusting away in front of us even as we discussed a fair price.

He got it for a steal and I no longer had to worry how I was going to get it through it’s next MOT.

He paid cash, I got a receipt and the deal was done.

If you asked me about travellers just from that one experience I ‘d give you a positive response.

Would it be racist or xenophobic for me to tell the story of the group of Irish travelers who broke in to the yard opposite my workshop or about how I drove past and saw them taking crowbars to the door and window grills of the building that owned the car park or how my cctv clearly showed torch light's going back and forth from their camp to the van sales place next door to me and magically the cats had vanished of every van the following morning. 

Or would it be more racist if I just referred to them as thieving pikey scum. 

Prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

That's not what's being discussed here though is it. What's being discussed here is very much based on reason and actual experience. 

Anecdotal experience of unpleasant and criminal behaviour from someone of a particular ethnic group does not justify generalisations about everyone in that group. That's prejudice, pure and simple. 

Of course it is. 

The problem is most people realise that they become guilty by association and get away from the people causing trouble or hand them in to the police. 

Very true. When a batch or convoy of caravans and flat bed transits heads through where I previously lived and doesn't chop locks off farmers gates, burn fences, take any metal that isn't welded to something else, clean out everyone's allotment sheds etc. Etc. I'll happily change my opinion, until that time I would recommend any resident to batten down the hatches every May. 

If there are honourable folk in their community, they don't care about non gyspies, gorgers, because they do nothing to stop the few rotten eggs wrecking every place they pass through. Every year they cost local taxpayers money clearing up their shit, literally in many cases. 

Perhaps you'd like a break next year in Appleby too? 

Yep. But in my case it's not anecdotal. And I didn't say it was everyone in the group.

Just the ones I've met.

Amongst close friends and family, I can't recall a single instance of unknown strangers turning up uninvited, at home or place of work and causing trouble. Oh, apart from these...

Friend slapped about and robbed in his home at the point of a sawn-off by people who mistakenly thought he was a drug dealer.

7 month pregnant friend confronted by two blokes who'd filled in the pair of tyre tracks (unasked) exiting her gravel drive, with a totally different coloured gravel and proceeded to very aggressively demand £200 for their time.

Bloke came round our works site on a Saturday demanding I sell him a trailer load of pallets. Apparently my boss didn't need to know and he got quite aggressive when I declined. Two nights later an arctic trailer with 60 grands worth of product was stolen out of the yard, towed by a stolen arctic recovery truck.

Same site had people camp round the corner for 2 days, no trouble apart from an 8 foot high pile of household waste and a burnt out car they didn't feel like taking with them.

Wife's company had another group on the verge opposite. The large portico covering the entrance had to have piles of human excrement removed every morning for the duration.

Last summer my elderly neighbour was much upset after a bloke pulled up at his front door with a brand new compressor he said he was to deliver. My neighbour explained he hadn't ordered it, whereupon the bloke commenced pressuring him to buy it saying he'd take a tenner just to get it off his hands. Ended up with the bloke shouting and swearing at my neighbour, only leaving when I intervened and told him the police had been called.

Care to guess what the common denominator was in all these instances?

There comes a point where "prejudice, pure and simple" looks a lot more like bitter experience. 

Or they’re scared of having the crap beaten out of them by the rotten eggs.  

Would it be racist or xenophobic for me to tell the story of the group of Irish travelers who broke in to the yard opposite my workshop or about how I drove past and saw them taking crowbars to the door and window grills of the building that owned the car park or how my cctv clearly showed torch light's going back and forth from their camp to the van sales place next door to me and magically the cats had vanished of every van the following morning. 

Or would it be more racist if I just referred to them as thieving pikey scum. 

Thieving scum will do...

And pushed my cycling friend off his bike when he was cycling home after the club bash. They were in a car and filmed it and stuck it on YouTube a couple of hours later. He was wary enough to not call the Police as the travellers site was in only a couple of miles from where he lived and he didnt fancy the potential repercussions. 

You can't beat some bitter experience to help develop some healthy prejudices.

No slaying or comebacks intended.

I don't think I just killed you, or is your definition of slaying different? 

Just the facts. Here is a bit  more of the UN thing....

The World Conference on Racism had, as its full title, the World Conference against Racism, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance..........

My earlier quote comes from the Oxford dictionary. However you seem to put UN definitions above the Oxford. Sorry but that just doesn't count.

Xenophobia and racism are two different things. Or are you arguing against the Oxford?

You're right up to a point, they aren't quite the same; however, they overlap. Racism is based on physical characteristics whereas xenophobia is based on foreignness. People who are xenophobic are often racist but not always.

Presumably the police could do nothing because the trail(er) had gone cold

Fair cop.