/ Is it time to give up trying ?

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019

This summer has been proper shitty so far.  

Sick of my pointless life

Every plan has failed, no climbing has been done , I had one outing this week and apart from Tuesday I've sat in a tent while it's just hammered it down And now I just want to punish myself by not eating .

I really wish I'd never been born .  

I hate myself .

Post edited at 07:10
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BnB 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I’m so sorry you feel like this. Please understand there are many here who value your company and your contributions on this forum. And who wish you better days, weeks and years. We are there for you.

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summo 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Embrace the rain, go gill bashing. Get a good soaking then because you're camping treat your kit to 30mins in a campsite or laudrette tumble drier.

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john arran 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Fundamentally every life is pointless but we find (and create for ourselves) positives that make it more than worthwhile.

I've had some pretty shitty times too and I rationalise them with the observation that living through harder times is essential if we are to truly appreciate what we have when the better times return (as I believe they inevitably will.)

Seems like you're on the right track by opening up about it, which is something I find particularly hard when it comes to personal or emotional matters.

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to BnB:

> I’m so sorry you feel like this. Please understand there are many here who value your company and your contributions on this forum. And who wish you better days, weeks and years. We are there for you.

Thanks

I just feel like I should kill myself and make it easier for everyone .   I'm never going to be well or normal and destined to a life of loneliness and misery.

If only i wasn't a coward. 

Post edited at 07:42
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Yanis Nayu 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I can pretty much guarantee that if you stick with it there’ll be many times in the future that you’ll look back to this point and be glad you did. Ride it out mate. 

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> I can pretty much guarantee that if you stick with it there’ll be many times in the future that you’ll look back to this point and be glad you did. Ride it out mate. 

Yes I know ( at least the remaining rational part of my mind agrees)

I've not slept properly or eaten since biking cut gate on Tuesday evening.

Tried to come on Monday but I started suffering anxiety and mental unstableness so sacked it off and came Tuesday.  And now wish I'd gone straight home 

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MonkeyPuzzle 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I just feel like I should kill myself and make it easier for everyone .

This is incorrect thinking and is depression talking through you. Killing yourself would cause untold upset to those that love, like and even just know you. Even the forever-squabbling UKC massive would be devastated to find out you'd hurt yourself or worse. They all want you alive.

> I'm never going to be well or normal and destined to a life of loneliness and misery.

No one is "destined" anything. There are friends yet to meet and opportunities to get better still to come. What that relies on is you being around.

> If only i wasn't a coward. 

You're not a coward; far from it. All I ask is keep talking. To us, to a friend, to a counselor or doctor. Just keep talking.

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deepsoup 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Sorry to see you back down in the hole TWS. 

Yeah, weird summer this year, roasted in July soaked in August.  I have some free time at the mo and have really been failing to make the most of it, have a few half-baked ideas for kayaking mini-adventures that I've been nursing all year and now that the time has come none of them are viable really because of the unsettled weather and it's disappointing.

If you were hunkered down at home you'd be drier and more comfortable, but I bet you'd be beating yourself up for not getting out there.  Being stuck in your tent in shitty weather is grim, it would get you down even if you were blessed with ridiculously bonny mental health so don't add to your woes by blaming yourself for feeling bad.  You haven't invited it, you don't deserve it, it's just shitty bad luck.

There's no reason to assume you won't be well in the future, maybe not soon enough but what you will be in the very near future if you can just keep going and ride this out is better.

You've been here before and come through it and this too shall pass so hang in there TWS.  There are a bunch of us here rooting for you.

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krikoman 15 Aug 2019

> , I had one outing this week and apart from Tuesday I've sat in a tent while it's just hammered it down

> I hate myself .

You hate yourself because of the weather?

Unless you're controlling it, in which case I hate you too , then it's not much to do with you, is it?

You know this will pass, just keep plodding on and fighting.

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cb294 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Sorry to hear you are in a bad shape again! Please seek medical help, urgently. Depression has a physiological basis that can in almost all cases be treated with drugs. Unlike older drugs for other psychological conditions, these drugs do not have unwanted side effects. They will pretty much ONLY change your mood and self perception! 

Give it a try and see if you feel better in a couple week's time!

CB

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Tom V 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Your mention of Cut Gate makes me wonder where you are holed up. If you wanted to meet up for a pint and a pie or even just a chat I have unlimited time on my hands . Feel free to message me. The sun's coming out, too.

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pasbury 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I'm sorry you are going through this.

Be kind to yourself; no one else would think these things about you, you are a valuable person.

Please keep eating and drinking water even if it's just snacks, hunger only makes you feel worse.

The weather will get better. Perhaps you idealise your plans and then when things don't work out as expected it's very upsetting. But doing anything - a short walk, a ride, whatever is still good (but only if you've got some food in you ). 

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spenser 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Biking cut gate is a pretty decent performance. If you're having one of those days where you want to go out and by the time you don't feel whacked it feels too late in the day to get up to the Peak you could always go and do a ride involving the Chevin near Farnah Green (it's an ace bit of trail not far from you)?

In January I was having a really rough time and one day I realised that I didn't feel safe going home to spend the evening on my own (I have spent the last two years living on my own), I wound up going to A & E and asking for help. Things have improved considerably since then (I still have bad days and am taking medication for my depression), relationships and friendships are still causing me difficulties, I have made the difficult decision to step down from my role as Meet Secretary for my local club, back away from my BMC volunteering and spend a bit of time looking after myself while I figure out how to be myself and who that might be. After a mountain bike accident 3 weeks ago I am now facing a period of probably 3 months without any climbing or mountain biking and despite this on a sensible day I feel safer, happier and more comfortable in my own skin than I have at any other point in my life.

I'm not sure if we've ever actually met, however my offer of going for a drink in Derby still stands, there are a few options for getting help which you might be able to pursue. Personally I've found counselling from Green Lane Counselling to be really helpful, if you can't afford the full £30 a session they will reduce the cost to a level which you can afford, the lady providing me with counselling is clearly far more skilled than any of the 5 previous counsellors who I have seen through the NHS and it's not limited to the 8 sessions which is dictated by the Clinical Commissioning Group's priorities.

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to Tom V:

> Your mention of Cut Gate makes me wonder where you are holed up. If you wanted to meet up for a pint and a pie or even just a chat I have unlimited time on my hands . Feel free to message me. The sun's coming out, too.

Thanks Tom.

That's very kind of you.  

I am about to leave Edale and head home and try a dry out.

Oh pints .  I remember that particular avenue of pleasure was closed off to me 20 months ago due to my ability to over self medicate   

Post edited at 10:02
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dunc56 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Some great replies here. Especially from Spenser. Please look into some counselling. If you can't afford it, people on here have offered to help and they mean it. You are not alone in this. A lot of people have faced similar battles and the fact they are still here means you can be too !  

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Tom V 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Have a safe journey, then.

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to pasbury:

> I'm sorry you are going through this.

> Be kind to yourself; no one else would think these things about you, you are a valuable person.

> Please keep eating and drinking water even if it's just snacks, hunger only makes you feel worse.

> The weather will get better. Perhaps you idealise your plans and then when things don't work out as expected it's very upsetting. But doing anything - a short walk, a ride, whatever is still good (but only if you've got some food in you ). 

I just don't feel im worthy of food.  To eat is a failure ,and I've not done anything to merit being treated kindly by myself.   I'm constantly unpleasant to myself.

Obviously I will have to eat at some point when i can't stand the pain any more or feel brighter about my life in general. 

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Timmd 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

In a neutral way, are you still not taking pills to help your mood?

It's a personal choice, of course, but I don't feel like my personality has changed through taking SSRI's/antidepressants, it's more that they've made me feel like I used to be, and are allowing me to gradually address the reasons I became depressed in the first place, or address things which aren't beneficial for my state of mind, whichever turns out to be the case you might say, but my life is infinitely better for me as I gradually change things about it, thanks to me being (more) able to.

My very best wishes. Remember to be kind to yourself with your thoughts.

Post edited at 10:14
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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to spenser:

> Biking cut gate is a pretty decent performance. If you're having one of those days where you want to go out and by the time you don't feel whacked it feels too late in the day to get up to the Peak you could always go and do a ride involving the Chevin near Farnah Green (it's an ace bit of trail not far from you)?

Thanks ,I  will look that up.  

> In January I was having a really rough time and one day I realised that I didn't feel safe going home to spend the evening on my own (I have spent the last two years living on my own), I wound up going to A & E and asking for help. Things have improved considerably since then (I still have bad days and am taking medication for my depression), relationships and friendships are still causing me difficulties, I have made the difficult decision to step down from my role as Meet Secretary for my local club, back away from my BMC volunteering and spend a bit of time looking after myself while I figure out how to be myself and who that might be. After a mountain bike accident 3 weeks ago I am now facing a period of probably 3 months without any climbing or mountain biking and despite this on a sensible day I feel safer, happier and more comfortable in my own skin than I have at any other point in my life.

> I'm not sure if we've ever actually met, however my offer of going for a drink in Derby still stands, there are a few options for getting help which you might be able to pursue. Personally I've found counselling from Green Lane Counselling to be really helpful, if you can't afford the full £30 a session they will reduce the cost to a level which you can afford, the lady providing me with counselling is clearly far more skilled than any of the 5 previous counsellors who I have seen through the NHS and it's not limited to the 8 sessions which is dictated by the Clinical Commissioning Group's priorities.

No we have never met , we have exchanged a few messages but never actually met.  I make all sorts of plans and have grand ideas about meeting new people and getting climbing again and trying to break the loneliness and another year passes and I've managed none of it and I'm another year closer to the grave. 

I had no idea that you suffered those issues and so I do think that meeting up would be a good idea being as we are pretty local to each other.

You never know maybe one-day I might get on rock again.  

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pasbury 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

You are worthy of food, don't punish yourself. it really will make you feel better to eat something, even just a bit of bread and butter.

Being hungry makes me feel really stressed and anxious nowadays (I never used to mind but I'm older now). When I eat something it takes about twenty minutes for the chemical messages in my brain to change and then I feel much, much better.

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Mick Ward 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I just don't feel im worthy of food. 

All of us are as worthy (or unworthy, if you like) as you are of food. Nobody else's life means more - or less - than yours'. We're all in this together!  (And yeah, sure, sometimes it's crazy city for all of us.)

> To eat is a failure...

It's a necessity!  And once I escaped from boarding skool grub, it mysteriously got enjoyable too. Can't think why...

> and I've not done anything to merit being treated kindly by myself.   I'm constantly unpleasant to myself.

You wouldn't treat anyone else like this. You wouldn't say, "What have you done, mate, to deserve your grub?" You'd just say, "Eat!"  We treat ourselves with a flagrant lack of kindness which we would never apply to anyone else. One of the weirdest - and worst - aspects of human nature.

Here's a reason to eat: in the nicest possible way, we're asking you to eat. So could you just do it for us - because we care about you. As pasbury says, you'll probably feel better.

Hang on in there!

Mick

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ScottTalbot 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I just feel like I should kill myself and make it easier for everyone .   I'm never going to be well or normal and destined to a life of loneliness and misery.

> If only i wasn't a coward. 

If you were a coward, you would be taking the cowards way out. You're not. You're choosing to work through it, when it would be easier to end the pain. End it for you anyway; it wouldn't truly end it, it would just be passed on to those that know and love you.

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jkarran 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Sorry to hear you're having a hard time of it again. I can't add much to the good replies you've already had but bear with it and things will get better. Get a hot meal in you and it might even feel like they're improving, whether you deserve it or not (you bloody well do!).

jk

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Dax H 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

You sir are far from a coward. Killing yourself is the easy option and known as the cowards way out, it takes bravery and determination to fight through things like this. 

There is still plenty of the year left, okay we have had a wet few weeks but for the past few years we have had very mild autumn days. Nothing is finer than a walk on a crisp day when the trees are changing colour. 

There is light at the end of the tunnel, your just not far enough through to see it yet but it is there. 

Loads of great advice and offers of help above, keep talking, keep eating and though you don't believe it trust us when we all say you have worth. 

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The Lemming 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Apart from coming onto this forum, what pro-active steps have you taken to improve your mental health recently?

For example have you contacted or spoken to any professional Mental Health practitioners?

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In reply to The Wild Scallion:

If you haven't yet, I cannot recommend trying antidepressants enough. They may not work, but for me they were the difference between actively planning on killing myself and just being generally miserable (there is a MASSIVE difference between the two). In the years since I've been a lot more in control of my depression, and the black dog, while not exactly tame, goes in its cage if I shout loud enough.

If you want to message me I can give you my whatsapp, and I'll try and talk through this all with you. I know where you are, I've been there, and I'll happily be available for you whenever you need.

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Lemming:

> Apart from coming onto this forum, what pro-active steps have you taken to improve your mental health recently?

> For example have you contacted or spoken to any professional Mental Health practitioners?

I finished a course of CBT this may and was discharged.  

Tried to look after myself, make plans to get out eat better , etc. 

I find the world is generally configured to make humans unhappy though. 

Living alone , little family , not much social interaction and it's not long before it cycles back periodically to bite me in the face.  

Such as

Why don't you have a partner and family? Even if the universe is destined be meaningless and pointless , at least I would have done my bit for my family and procreated.

Why doesn't anybody like me ? 

Why do anything ? 

What is happiness?

What is this thing I'm experiencing ? 

What is the nature of reality ? 

Why is the universe cruel ? .

Endless existential questions to which there is no solid answer and I can't turn off to the extent that I become exhausted and have to spend days in bed not moving.  Getting more and more upset that what little life I have left is running out. 

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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I do realize that I'm a pain in the arse most of the time , and maybe posting here isn't a good idea.  

But it's the only way I can just get stuff off my chest sometimes and it helps a little to just do that.  Also I hope by taking about stuff I might in a small way remove the stigma of mental health for others that may read this.

It's a pity people only mainly see me whinge and not at my best .  

I do think I may be slightly bipolar. On a good day I'm brilliant.   

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The Lemming 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I finished a course of CBT this may and was discharged.  

> Tried to look after myself, make plans to get out eat better , etc. 

After you were discharged from a course of CBT, in May was there any advice or information given should your mental health get worse?

While you have got worse over the last few months have you contacted any professional mental health practitioners to tell them about this?

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wercat 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

What is your creative side interested in?    There is always another side of life that can bring rewards, away from the great outdoors.  Sometimes you need the GO and other things won't do.   But if you also foster other creative interests (could be anything from woodwork, music, art, electronics, restoring motorbikes, ~DIY etc) the GO can stimulate you for whwn you get home.   And then when you can't get out of doors for any reason you can still find mental rewards from just doing/creating/learning stuff.   If you have any other interests follow them as well.  And if your innner voice says "no point" then don't believe it - it's an imposter jealous that you might do stuff it can't control.  Even tidying a workbench/workshop up is good as it removes a potential barrier to getting on and making or doing, gives a small step for a man AND while you are doing it frees the mind to be stimulated by ideas for projects.

Not to mention the great feeling of having said YES! instead of believing Mr Nasty's NO!

Hope this makes sense and might help (From a fellow sufferer)

Post edited at 13:28
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The Wild Scallion 15 Aug 2019
In reply to wercat:

> What is your creative side interested in?    There is always another side of life that can bring rewards, away from the great outdoors.  Sometimes you need the GO and other things won't do.   But if you also foster other creative interests (could be anything from woodwork, music, art, electronics, restoring motorbikes, ~DIY etc) the GO can stimulate you for whwn you get home.   And then when you can't get out of doors for any reason you can still find mental rewards from just doing/creating/learning stuff.   If you have any other interests follow them as well.  And if your innner voice says "no point" then don't believe it - it's an imposter jealous that you might do stuff it can't control.  Even tidying a workbench/workshop up is good as it removes a potential barrier to getting on and making or doing, gives a small step for a man AND while you are doing it frees the mind to be stimulated by ideas for projects.

I have a small home studio that I use to write music ( I have 2 guitars, 3 keyboards, drum machine , effect racks and mixing desk amongst my possessions. 

I'm very interested in philosophy and mystery subjects. So read alot about that.

Also paint abstracts,. Print 3d objects and build electronic gadgets from time to time. 

Im also a gym addict.

> Not to mention the great feeling of having said YES! instead of believing Mr Nasty's NO!

> Hope this makes sense and might help 

It all does . Thank you.  

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David Riley 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

>  maybe posting here isn't a good idea.  

It is a good idea and, as you say, is good for others too.

"Every plan has failed, no climbing has been done"

I'm just down the road.   I can pick you up and go climbing when some decent weather returns if you want.   Perhaps not too high else I'll worry about you.

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spenser 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I will send you an email with a scan of a route from a guidebook.

I'm not sad about having stepped back from doing that stuff, it means I have time to sort myself out. There's no shame in spending time to look after your own health.

I'm happy to meet up for a drink or some such (I can even provide some tasty flapjack which I made a couple of days ago, you almost definitely deserve it more than me as I am spending most of my time in bed sleeping off surgery at the moment)!

There's no need to put pressure on yourself to be anything other than what you want to be at any given time, if that doesn't include climbing at the moment that's no big deal. It's your life and you can choose to make of it what you will so if you decide to take up baking, volunteer as a dog walker, focus on mountain biking or hill walking, as long as you're happy and you're not screwing things up for anyone else it doesn't really matter what you do.

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what the hex 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Lemming:

My experience of mental health support is that they are over-stretched and the help isn't necessarily there when you need it. It is invaluable though and shouldn't be dismissed outright. Also I think it's important to remember that CBT is a life skill and it can be helpful to revisit, even off your own back, so to speak.

There are no easy answers.

In the mean time, Wild Scallion, we are here, we are listening and we are looking out for you.

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Pefa 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I finished a course of CBT this may and was discharged.  

> Tried to look after myself, make plans to get out eat better , etc. 

> I find the world is generally configured to make humans unhappy though. 

> Living alone , little family , not much social interaction and it's not long before it cycles back periodically to bite me in the face.  

> Such as

> Why don't you have a partner and family? Even if the universe is destined be meaningless and pointless , at least I would have done my bit for my family and procreated.

> Why doesn't anybody like me ? 

> Why do anything ? 

> What is happiness?

> What is this thing I'm experiencing ? 

> What is the nature of reality ? 

> Why is the universe cruel ? .

> Endless existential questions to which there is no solid answer and I can't turn off to the extent that I become exhausted and have to spend days in bed not moving.  Getting more and more upset that what little life I have left is running out. 

There are solid answers to these questions if you look deeply enough so perhaps you could try changing your methods or approach, ye know? Coming at it from a different angle or taking just one matter at a time I mean if I was to try and suss out all these questions I think my wee brain would get pretty tired out to. 

I only know what you post on here and from that I see a kind, caring guy with a mischievous sense of humour so what's not to like? And an outdoors man to, great! Personally speaking politically and environmentally I have want to change the world since 14 years old but when I got intense about it I became an angry person which no one likes to be around and get lectures from. So I dropped the intense agitating for the sake of my health and friendships because I realised it wasn't worth it I can't change the world and so I decided to try acceptance of what is. 

If I'm feeling bored I just be bored, if I feel agitated or anxious then i just be anxious or agitated and do you know for me it sort of neutralises it, what I'm saying is its OK to not be OK and by doing so I am much calmer and hardly ever get so angry or wound up and when I do I just go straight to the breath for a bit and nothing else. it might look on the TV as if everyone is having a ball and is happy as fk and has tons of friends and is walking on sunshine but that is pure bullshit, that is not life for anyone. So I would say to you WS try be as kind and loving to yourself as you are to others sweetheart, have a cry, go and give someone you love a big hug and give yourself a big hug to. 

Sending a big hug from me. 

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Michael Hood 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Your "not eating" sounds very much like it's a "one area of my life I can control", and "I should only eat when I'm worthy" - this sounds very similar to the control aspects of bulimia & anorexia (somebody with better knowledge correct me if I'm wrong).

As a first step, try shifting your thinking slightly to "I'm always worthy of basic food to keep me alive and physically healthy", and when you've done something you consider "properly worthy", give yourself a food treat.

That still allows you to be in control, but you won't get the exacerbation to your state of mental health that being undernourished brings.

Good luck, keep talking and try and go with at least some of the advice and offers on here to help you move in the right direction. We're all rooting for you.

Post edited at 14:15
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Blue Straggler 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Living alone , little family , not much social interaction 

That sounds a bit like me

> Such as

> Why don't you have a partner and family? Even if the universe is destined be meaningless and pointless , at least I would have done my bit for my family and procreated.

That’s not any sort of duty or destiny and sounds a bit like me

> Why doesn't anybody like me ? 

People SEEM to like me a bit but never super strongly ...

> Why do anything ? 

> What is happiness?

> What is this thing I'm experiencing ? 

> What is the nature of reality ? 

> Why is the universe cruel ? 

Most of us ask that from time to time. These need t be negative questions

Despite my responses to the above, I have worked to look it all in a positive way. Nothing you have written that I have quoted here, need be “bad”

Certainly nothing wrong with being a bit of a loner and definitely no duty to procreate.

I’ve enjoyed a lot of posts on here and hope to continue doing so.

Your creative outlets are greater than mine ! Nice one

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Pursued by a bear 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I do realize that I'm a pain in the arse most of the time , and maybe posting here isn't a good idea.  

You're not and it is. Keep doing it.

You have more people that wish you well than perhaps you realise. Be kinder to yourself, in body and mind. And if you haven't been eating then the vicious cycle of negative thoughts can take over; the engine of recovery won't start until you put some fuel in the tank. Please eat something to get that engine running.

T.

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luke glaister 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Loads of love from people you dont know and most likely never will. Ukc at its brilliant best. But its love all the same. Fight the demons all the way. Never give up. Take one day at a time. Talk. Talk and more talk. It's all about the journey.  Embrace the good times. Smile and wave at the shit times. All the best

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BusyLizzie 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Please eat and get warm, because you are worth it, because we want you to, because you are part of the world. No man is an island...

Thank you for telling us. I am no good with words in these circumstances but I stand with the ukc group hug/hive mind/community, and we're all saying: be good to yourself, and keep talking.

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Ianto Bach 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

We've never met, although we've communicated a little on this forum. 

Your posts have a massive impact and I wish I could help in a way more concrete than replying with mere words.

Mental health conditions (including disordered eating) are very real illnesses that deserve to be and can be treated. 

Talking and opening up are positive steps, the response to your OP demonstrates people care and you are worthy. 

I'm not an expert, although I've extensive experience as a carer. Things can be better and the likelihood is they will be better. The more you can engage with others (healthcare professionals, others with similar experiences or others that care - like us on UKC), the more you'll know you aren't alone and the greater chance of getting through this crux that you're struggling with. 

Please, do not linger on harmful thoughts. If they are very strong and are becoming dominant, seek help. The Samaritans are always on hand, as are many on here.

Seek small and daily pleasures, don't focus on huge goals or objectives. Things will be better.

It's also okay to feel shitty at times - don't beat yourself up for that. Festering in a soaking tent is not usually top of the list of fun things to do.

Recalibration of expectations may help - I've learnt to accept it's unlikely I'll beat my 42 minute 10k, won't climb above E5, won't be a gazillionaire, won't cure diseases and won't get to many of the places I've dreamed of visiting. 

Being in remote places (even if they're on the doorstep), relishing in the rush of a downhill single track ride, enjoying the texture of skin on stone, having a pound more in my pocket than I need and maybe, just maybe, helping others through a tough time make things worthwhile.

Oh, and as others have said - eat. Without maintenance of your basal metabolic rate, you will feel worse and your malnourished brain will fail to function properly, leading to further disordered thinking.

You are worthy. Feel free to PM me if you want.

Hang in there TWS.

I

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Timmd 15 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I've occasionally had rather bleak thoughts, along the lines of humans being nuts, and actually rather selfish and disingenuous in their ways, but with me having no choice but to throw in my lot with humans because I happen to need them through being one as well, and then on other occasions, after experiencing the better side of people, I'll be thinking more along the lines of 'People can be lovely, and possibly most people are really'. On reflection, I think most people are looking for people who are looking for the best in people, and to look for that can mean that one finds it, because most people want to find other people who are friendly and who are nice to them.

Where I'm leading too, in this rambling post, is that how we view ourselves can be just as subjective, and can fluctuate, so all these thoughts you have about you being unworthy, and 'not good enough', very very likely have no foundation in reality. 

You certainly do have good qualities, because you wished me well on another thread you started, when I shared something of my own journey in dealing with depression and anxiety, and taking SSRI's for my mental health.

Edit: I had to break into my own porch this evening after losing my house keys, and was lucky enough to be disorganised enough that I could reach my spare key after a squeeze because I'd randomly left them nearby, found them while wedged half way though the narrow window. In the past I'd have beaten myself up, but it's just a bit of a pain in the arse in the scheme of things (nothing has been left irreparable and I can secure things before I go to bed). Be kind to yourself for being human and not perfect.

Post edited at 23:53
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I like climbing 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Sorry you feel this way. Please talk to someone. Strangers can sometimes be better to talk to than people you know. Let me know if I can help.

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The Wild Scallion 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Good morning, 

As always everyone thanks for the supporting messages yesterday.  

I'm much better today, not cartwheeling out of bed but better.

I'm sorry i was so negative and distressed yesterday.   

I got home , warm ,dry some food and into bed to try and reset my chemistry. 

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Ianto Bach 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Very good to hear, please make sure you keep talking and keep up the fuel intake - it will help. Restricting food may give you control where you feel you have none, it's never good. If you need to exercise control, maybe bring your focus to controling a healthy meal plan.

Look after yourself

I

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BusyLizzie 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Good morning, and  we all wish you a better day today. 

Fwiw: when I am down I find that making something is helpful. Can be something quite small like a sandwich, or mending something, or making some music (as in just playing a song you've known for years, doesn't have to be a feat of composition).

Take care. And stay out of today's rain please!!

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subtle 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Good morning, 

> As always everyone thanks for the supporting messages yesterday.  

> I'm much better today, not cartwheeling out of bed but better.

> I'm sorry i was so negative and distressed yesterday.   

> I got home , warm ,dry some food and into bed to try and reset my chemistry. 

Nice one, being warm,dry and having some food in your belly helps

Glad you getting there. 

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spenser 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

No need to apologise for the way you were feeling, everyone gets overwhelmed sometimes, people would much rather that you pipe up and say things aren't OK rather than bottling it all up and feeling even worse.

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AndySL 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Phew. Good to hear you're home and safe. Look after yourself TWS.

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Pursued by a bear 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Glad to hear you're home.  Don't forget to keep eating, that recovery engine needs to keep running; doesn't have to be big or clever or complicated but it does need to happen at least twice a day, better three.  A fried egg butty with cheese and HP sauce is probably my own too-knackered-to-think comfort food.

And while all those big, difficult questions are still there well, they're coming to no harm on their own.  Today, tomorrow and for as long as you please, you need only think about the small-scale stuff.  Take joy in doing the simple things as well as you're able, and don't rush to judge yourself.  Just do what's in front of you as that's all that needs doing for now.  Think small; think local; think kindly about you.  That's all you have to do, just that.  Enjoy doing it.

Tomorrow, the same.  Getting yourself back in balance will take time, and you can't hurry a good job.  And you will do a good job, in time.

T.

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marsbar 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Take care.  

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DerwentDiluted 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

TWS, I can't add anything to the responses above. I have the emotional intelligence of a fart in a jam jar. But I really would like to add my name to the big list of people here who are genuinely rooting for you, and need you to find a way through this to the light.

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Toerag 16 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

>  Oh pints .  I remember that particular avenue of pleasure was closed off to me 20 months ago due to my ability to over self medicate   

It's not closed off when you're drinking with someone that cares about you and will stop you over-medicating (unless you're an alcoholic and only complete abstinence helps).  There's plenty of people local to you on here, organise a gentle beer or two.

>Why don't you have a partner and family? Even if the universe is destined be meaningless and pointless , at least I would have done my bit for my family and procreated.

It doesn't matter. Some people get partners & families easily, some don't. Some relationships last, some don't. Some people don't find anyone until late in life, others find someone early, lose them and never find anyone after. You've loads of time.

>Why doesn't anybody like me ? 

That's not true and you know it.

>Why do anything ? 

Because it's more fun than doing nothing.

>What is happiness?

Happiness is all sorts of things to all sorts of people. It doesn't matter how often it happens or what it is.

>What is this thing I'm experiencing ? 

Depression. But you know that anyway so there's no need to ask the question. You don't need to ask why you suffer from it, all you need to do is work out how to manage it. Are you keeping up with the things you learnt on your CBT?

>What is the nature of reality ? 

This doesn't matter. It's not like you can do anything to change it, so why worry about it?

>Why is the universe cruel ? .

This doesn't matter. It's not always cruel anyway.

>Endless existential questions to which there is no solid answer and I can't turn off to the extent that I become exhausted and have to spend days in bed not moving.  Getting more and more upset that what little life I have left is running out. 

An ex-colleague once started thinking about the edge of the universe and what's outside it. "It must be 'nothing'...but there can't be nothing, there must be something." He didn't sleep for 2 days.

You don't have little life left. You've lots to give, both to others and to yourself.  It's good that you're happier today, as said upthread, the best thing you can do is sort out your eating, you'll find everything easier if you're fuelled up.

Post edited at 22:42
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marsbar 17 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I think you should see the GP this week.  CBT can be helpful but it sounds like you need more than that at some points. 

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Timmd 17 Aug 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Eat more food, and go see your doctor and try taking some pills mate, you've nothing to lose by taking them, because you can always stop again, and you might feel better. 

All the negative thoughts you have about yourself, ring true for me because I used to have them as well. 

If you don't take the pills, please keep an eye on your thoughts about yourself, and question all the negative ones....

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marsbar 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Timmd:

I'd agree with all of that.  

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Paul Sagar 17 Aug 2019

Just going to put in a +1 for trying anti-depressants. I resisted using them for years, then nearly didn’t survive. They have completely changed my life - saved it, even. TWS I’ve been exactly in the hole you are in right now, thinking exactly the same thoughts about how I would never get better. But I did. It is simply untrue that your future is locked in. The future’s not set, there’s no fate but what we make. 

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marsbar 17 Aug 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'd also say they saved my life.  

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Timmd 17 Aug 2019
In reply to marsbar: I can't say if they saved my life, but they helped to stop me from feeling hopeless and worthless.

Post edited at 21:04
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BusyLizzie 20:11 Wed
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

How are doing? Hope you are ok friend.

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In reply to BusyLizzie:

> How are doing? Hope you are ok friend.

Hi.  I am a bit better ,  not feeling very good presently but i can't really eat properly.  

So I'm surviving  on protein shakes and bars which isn't really enough at all which is making my mood very up and down.

Thank you for enquiring. 

Post edited at 21:11
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iknowfear 21:17 Wed
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Hi, 

If you have half an hour to spare, maybe take a look at Dave MacLeod's  video regarding nutrition and mental health: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPi41bSrFdI

And to answer your question in the title: NO! 

Wishing you all the best 

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In reply to iknowfear:

> Hi, 

> If you have half an hour to spare, maybe take a look at Dave MacLeod's  video regarding nutrition and mental health: 

> And to answer your question in the title: NO! 

> Wishing you all the best 

Thanks you.

I will try and watch it.

I guess it is going to be similar to the Minnesota starvation experiment.

I just wish there was some solution to people that have no desire to eat and struggle to see the point bothering.

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Bobling 22:47 Wed
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Hi TWS

Just want to add my support, I've not had any experience of significant mental health issues affecting me but have had loads of experience of them affecting others, including trying to find a path through the trauma following suicides.  Please, please, please make sure that you take yourself to the GP and have a conversation with them that includes your thoughts about suicide, and let them know if you have started to think about a plan for how you'd do it.  Please.  I'm begging you here. 

Keep talking to us, whatever the time there always seems to be someone up on UKC who is ready to offer support and advice.  We don't want to lose you.

Weirdly I re-hung this quote from the Dalai Lama on the wall today at work, it seems appropriate: 

“NEVER GIVE UP
No matter what is going on
Never give up
Develop the heart
Too much energy in your country
Is spent developing the mind
Instead of the heart
Be compassionate
Not just to your friends
But to everyone
Be compassionate
Work for peace
In your heart and in the world
Work for peace
And I say again
Never give up
No matter what is going on around you
Never give up”

Tears are rolling down my face mate, we want to help and get you through this, and when I say we I am sure I am speaking for everyone you come into contact with, not just UKC.

Huge hug.

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In reply to Bobling:

> Hi TWS

> Just want to add my support, I've not had any experience of significant mental health issues affecting me but have had loads of experience of them affecting others, including trying to find a path through the trauma following suicides. 

Please, please, please make sure that you take yourself to the GP and have a conversation with them that includes your thoughts about suicide, and let them know if you have started to think about a plan for how you'd do it.  Please.  I'm begging you here. 

Thanks for the concern.   The Dr however can do nothing but offer drugs this a none starter for me.  

And I'm not going to fight for a appointment for no reason.

I'm very unhappy but not presently suicidal.  

Underfed and underslept yes.

> Huge hug.

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marsbar 07:26 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Can I ask why you are so determined not to take the drugs that will make you better?   

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In reply to marsbar:

> Can I ask why you are so determined not to take the drugs that will make you better?   

Tried them before .   

I have a aunt who is a walking pill box and addicted to all manner of prescribed pills a real mess.  That's what drs and society has done to her.

And Im also  the option that rather than drug myself into compliance , it's the world and large portions of it's inhabitants that cause the issues that we suffer from.  Don't get me wrong depression is real and horrible but alot of mine comes from failed parents, damaged siblings and my personal idealism self punishment and eating issue / disorder 

Parents have a lot to answer for  bringing children into the world and then purposely doing things that are going to damage their minds irreparably.

A long story but drugs are not my go to solution here.  I've seriously considered them a few month back but it never sits comfortably with me. 

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Bobling 08:37 Thu

> I'm very unhappy but not presently suicidal.  

> Underfed and underslept yes.

>

That's great to hear (that you are not presently suicidal - not that you are unhappy, underfed and underslept).  Thanks for getting back to me.

Post edited at 08:39
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wercat 09:18 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Can you bring yourself to eat some nuts?   I find walnuts and almonds and honeyed dried figs a great help to mood level if eaten regularly.  In fact I'd go so far as to say I need them to keep me level.    And fruit eaten almost to excess - Feast on it, with full fat Greek yoghurt!

More fun than astronaut food.

Just think of it!

Post edited at 09:20
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marsbar 09:33 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I take a different view.  

There are things you can change and things you can’t.

Your past experiences cannot be undone or changed.

One of the things you can change is the real damage done to your brain chemistry by your past.  

I don’t see the drugs as compliance.  I see them as the equivalent of using a sling while my broken arm heals.  

They put me in a position to deal with day to day life, and with healing. 

It is possible to change how you feel about yourself and your past but it isn’t easy.  

It sounds like you need more than a CBT sticking plaster.  

Even if you don’t want to take the drugs (I respect your choice even though I don’t agree with it), maybe you could go back to IAPT or whatever they call themselves now, and see about some actual therapy and eating disorder support.  CBT is a good start but it’s mainly for simply feeling a bit down.  You have underlying causes for they way you feel.  

Anyway, take care and I’m sorry if I sound a bit bossy.  

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marsbar 09:38 Thu
In reply to marsbar:

Thanks

Been to first steps and it was pretty useless to be fair but they did put me with a trainee counselor who was crap.  I also couldn't afford the fee each session for nothing .

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marsbar 11:11 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Fair enough.  I’ve no experience of them.  

From what you’ve said it seems to me your eating is disordered due to your depression and childhood rather than being a stand alone eating disorder, so maybe it’s a symptom not a cause?  But I’m not a doctor.  

Anyway I’m thinking of you if that helps.  

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LastBoyScout 11:49 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

If it's your 20th driving test, then maybe driving isn't for you.

Everything else - keep plugging at it! Can't rain all the time

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LastBoyScout 11:51 Thu
In reply to john arran:

<hijack> saw you last night climbing with Hazel Findlay and Steve Backshall in Oman - nice work. </hijack>

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Toerag 12:33 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

>  A long story but drugs are not my go to solution here.  I've seriously considered them a few month back but it never sits comfortably with me. 

A lack of Wild Scallion sits uncomfortably with us and everyone else that cares about you. Everyone's different and you are not your Aunt. You literally have nothing to lose by trying the drugs, and as Marsbar says, they will quite likely give you the support to keep you going whilst you fix the mental issues you want to fix.  I think most people suffering from depression don't want to take the drugs in the same way that you don't want to, but the reality is that they often do good and stop people dropping to critical lows. If they give you the time to fix your problems and you come off them then happy days. If you can't get off them but they keep you alive then happy days. In the meantime go eat something and/or have a nap .

Post edited at 12:33
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In reply to Toerag:

Currently I have retired to bed as I'm exhausted. A friend brought me breakfast which was nice so I have had solid normal food this morning.

The drugs are a none starter.  Even if I wanted to take them I won't pay them money for the prescription.  Why do I work, pay taxes , council tax, dentists,  etc... When other people that don't get them free. 

Why doesn't society invest in the health of it's citizens ?

We all know the answer, because it generally is faceless and  doesn't care or have any long term plan for our species. 

​​​​​​I am trying to get motivated to try and have some sort of weekend.  My holidays are coming this close and I've done very little again. 

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Paul Sagar 13:32 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Hey TWS,

The cost of a recurring prescription for SSRIs is £8 a month. That's what I pay. £8 a month to be able to live a normal life? Without a doubt ,the greatest bargain I have ever taken advantage of.

When you're depressed, the illness makes you think that you are RIGHT to be depressed, because (the illness tells you) it is the world that is screwed up, not you. You are clearly thinking like this at the moment - see above posts you've made. As a function of how it works, the illness also tells you that you are right to resist taking the drugs - that you would be a failure, dependent on a crutch, confirmation that you have failed and are weak, whatever. But it's crucial to realise that is is the illness hijacking your system and making you think this way. Once you de-hijack it, you will be amazed that you ever let it run your thoughts so exhaustively.

Here is a list of things that, when I was depressed, I thought were totally normal. Now I recognise them as quite literally insane:

- Waking up and first thing in the morning thinking "I should kill myself because life is pointless and I'm going to die anyway so I may as well do it now"

- Not getting out of bed because life is pointless

- Hating myself for not getting out of bed

- Eventually getting out of bed but not bothering to read that book/leave the house/do anything enjoyable because life is pointless and we are all going to die therefore nothing matters therefore I should just kill myself now. Repeat roughly 200 times a day.

- Managing to leave the house and thinking "I should just step in front of this train/bus/car right now"

- Being convinced nobody likes me and I would do everyone a massive favour by just killing myself

- Going to bed and just really looking forward to being asleep as a way of escaping the above, but dreading having to wake up in the morning only to repeat it all again.

- Being violently opposed to getting help for how I feel, because how I feel is right and the world is screwed up, I'm just clever enough to see it for how it really is - oh and therefore I should kill myself.

(And that was before I even developed anxiety, which made the depression (which I'd previously been able to just sort of survive through) almost unsurvivable. I had a full on breakdown when I was 26 and only then did I allow myself to take the drugs, because I just needed it all to stop and was so desperate that I'd try anything - and I'm glad I finally did, because it worked.)

Do you have the above sorts of thoughts? I'm guessing, from what you've said above, that you do. Well, those thoughts aren't normal. Most people don't have them. And you don't have to have them, either. The drugs can help by switching off, or at least dialling down, all those thoughts. Then, you can start to get better.

A major problem, however, is that SSRIs can take 6-8 weeks to be fully effective. And from weeks 2-4 they can even make you feel worse. But as somebody who has been through the cycle enough times to now be committed to just taking the drugs forever, all I can say is that committing to trying for those 6-8 weeks is likely the best decision you could ever make.

Post edited at 13:34
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Paul Sagar 13:36 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

p.s. on CBT: I'm sure this can help people with one-off episodes of depression, but my suspicion is that it is pretty useless for people with clinical depression. More advanced forms of psychotherapy can I think be far more effective, but getting them on the NHS is really difficult. I'd not bother with counselling for now - go straight for the medical intervention because you need help ASAP.

Post edited at 13:36
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Paul Sagar 13:38 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

FWIW, here's the text of an article I wrote in the final issue of Climb magazine (can't seem to find a way to link to it online anywhere) a couple of years back:

When the Black Dog Bites: Climbing and Depression

The last time I got seriously depressed was the spring of 2016. Looking back, I brought it on myself. 

After a year on new medication I’d been feeling good. Really good. So good, in fact, that the pills seemed to have done their job. And from February I was heading to sunny California for three whole months of academic research leave, dodging the last of the vile British winter. Obviously, I was better now. So at the end of December, I tapered off the pills.

The truth is, nobody likes being on medication. Especially for a mental health disorder. And the thing with anti-depressants is that when they are working, you forget what it was like to be depressed. You also forget that it’s the drugs that are making you OK. Precisely because they are doing their job, you think you don’t need them anymore. 

I crashed in mid March. Hard. The old thoughts about the pointlessness of my life (and of everything else) returned. So did the anxiety. The racing heart and the inability to think sanely about what I’d done in the past (all bad) and what I’d do in the future (all hopeless). I stopped wanting to see the new friends I’d made. I started getting out of bed later and later. I was eating more and more 6-packs of $1 Walgreens cookies, alone, in front of Netflix.

But I’d been here before, and so I knew a few tricks. Exercise – as any doctor will tell you – is hugely beneficial in fighting depression. And it happened that I was training for a marathon at that point (my first, and most definitely my last). But if you’re depressed, long runs have a downside. Before the post-exercise reduction in anxiety and despondency, you spend hours on your own. Thinking. Endlessly. About how everything is pointless. About how soon you’ll be dead anyway, so you may as well just hurry up and get it over with now. Ruminationis one of the most brutal aspects of depression. Being trapped in a cycle of your own negative thoughts is the essence of the condition – and often the hardest thing to beat.

So I knew that whilst I had to keep on with the marathon training, there was somewhere else I needed to go: the bouldering wall.

*

In a recent study from the University of Arizona, researcher Eva-Maria Stelzer conducted a controlled trial that aimed to determine whether bouldering could help individuals with severe levels of depression.[1]The results were striking. Those individuals who began a bouldering course ahead of a control group of wait-list patients improved markedly by comparison. Although bouldering was not offered in isolation - it was introduced along with mindfulness techniques and pyschoeduation – the effects seem nonetheless to be real. 

This is only one study. More will be needed to prove conclusive links. But it is worth noting that in Austria and Germany climbing is now well-established as a form of therapy for both physical and psychological problems.[2]And as Stelzer has been keen to emphasise, there shouldn’t be anything surprising in her findings. This is because alongside the known link between exercise and treating depression, bouldering offers something else: intense concentration on the problems being climbed.

Given that ceaseless negative rumination is at the heart of much depression, finding a way to switch that off for just a couple hours is far from trivial. When you’re bouldering (and I’d say this is also true of route climbing) you haveto be present to the task in hand. There just isn’t enough capacity in the human brain whilst climbing to think about anything other than what your hands, feet, and core are doing. Put simply: you won’t be able to ponder the pointlessness of existence when you’re crimping hard, or trying to make that final jug. You’re in the moment. And in the moment, you’re not depressed.

There’s also the fact that bouldering is highly sociable. Climbing in general is a friendly sport, and most people at gyms are happy to help each other improve technique, swap beta, joke around, and so on. This, again, is not trivial. Self-imposed isolation and anxiety about associating with others are key features of depression. What a bouldering gym offers is low-stakeshuman interaction. You can just chat about climbing the problems, not about life and its horrors. Similarly, the fact that some neutral thing is being focused upon removes the specter of small talk, and the potential awkwardness of interacting with strangers that can be terrifying for those suffering from depression-linked anxiety. Again, these may seem small or incidental benefits. But to those that need them most, they are invaluable. 

*

In that spring of 2016, I think I’d figured out by accident what Stelzer’s study seems to show. I’m certainly not surprised by her findings. Anecdotally, I can corroborate them. And whilst it would be an exaggeration to say that Iron Works gym in Berkeley saved my life, it definitely made my life easier to get through for several crucial weeks. 

Luckily I didn’t sink so low that I couldn’t even motivate myself to climb. And in truth, what ultimately got me through was the support of friends old and new, plus a $200 trip to the emergency clinic for a new prescription. Climbing was no magic bullet – but it helped me cope, and it helped me get better.

Since returning to the UK, however, I’ve found that climbing can actually be even more than just a short-term coping device. When I was in America I became close to a colleague, Nick, and his wife, Katherine. Both avid climbers, they looked out for me when I wasn’t doing well, and hung out with me at the gym. They also took me on trips outdoors to the semi-secret Gold Wall, as well as putting me up my first Yosemite crack.

I completely sucked at climbing routes back then, and they were blessedly patient with me. But what I saw in the process was just how much they made climbing a part of their lives: beyond a hobby, into a lifestyle. And I saw the deep satisfaction it gave them. When I bemoaned that Cambridge (UK) is three hours from the Peak District, so I could never climb outdoors, they laughed at the idea of three hours being a long drive. In fairness, Americans really don’t have any comprehension of how different our windy, round-a-bout filled roads are! But I took the underlying point to heart. If I wanted, I could climb a heck of a lot more. I just needed to choose to make it happen.

After I got back to the UK, once the marathon was out of the way I started taking climbing a lot more seriously, moving from casual bouldering to a dedicated approach. I’m an obsessive person, so this was pretty easy (especially as there were now marathon-sized holes of training time to fill). But in the process, something interesting happened. 

All of my neurotic energies – which previously went into either academic research, or self-loathing – started going into climbing. It also helped that I met a girl, Ali, who’s not only willing to come climbing (at least some of the time), but has a good instinct for which of my nonsense to tolerate, and which to tell me to cut out pronto.

Ali says I’m too obsessed with climbing. And she’s right. But pouring over topos, or doing endless ARC training at the gym, are vastly preferable to reading David Foster Wallace alone, for hours on end, eating too many Walgreens cookies, and thinking “well he killed himself, so I probably should too”. And if I’m going to over-indulge, better to be a hopeless grade-chaser than dependent on the bottle, or worse. 

Depression isn’t something I’ll ever entirely beat. There’ll be bad times again. And climbing is no miracle cure. I still need my meds, and without my friends, I’d be lost. But when the black dog bites – and someday it will – at least I know I’ll always have the wall. 

[1]https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/bouldering-envisioned-new-treatment-depression

[2]https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=8502

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Here is a list of things that, when I was depressed, I thought were totally normal. Now I recognise them as quite literally insane:

> - Waking up and first thing in the morning thinking "I should kill myself because life is pointless and I'm going to die anyway so I may as well do it now"

That's not insane it's logical

> - Not getting out of bed because life is pointless

Again that's perfectly normal for any intelligent thinking individuals.

> - Hating myself for not getting out of bed

Again normal for highly intelligent people.

> - Eventually getting out of bed but not bothering to read that book/leave the house/do anything enjoyable because life is pointless and we are all going to die therefore nothing matters therefore I should just kill myself now. Repeat roughly 200 times a day.

Ok this is wrong

> - Managing to leave the house and thinking "I should just step in front of this train/bus/car right now"

Again also wrong thinking

> - Being convinced nobody likes me and I would do everyone a massive favour by just killing myself

Also insane

> - Going to bed and just really looking forward to being asleep as a way of escaping the above, but dreading having to wake up in the morning only to repeat it all again.  

Exhausting.

> - Being violently opposed to getting help for how I feel, because how I feel is right and the world is screwed up, I'm just clever enough to see it for how it really is - oh and therefore I should kill myself.

You are , you have , the veil lifts and your ability to see further and deeper into eventual outcomes of existing and different metaphysical concepts on planes of existence. 

> (And that was before I even developed anxiety, which made the depression (which I'd previously been able to just sort of survive through) almost unsurvivable. I had a full on breakdown when I was 26 and only then did I allow myself to take the drugs, because I just needed it all to stop and was so desperate that I'd try anything - and I'm glad I finally did, because it worked.)

I took them in my mid 20s also.

> Do you have the above sorts of thoughts? I'm guessing, from what you've said above, that you do. Well, those thoughts aren't normal. Most people don't have them. And you don't have to have them, either. The drugs can help by switching off, or at least dialling down, all those thoughts. Then, you can start to get better.

Those and many others.

Not all of those thoughts are necessarily bad or wrong.  It's just when they get to much influence.

> A major problem, however, is that SSRIs can take 6-8 weeks to be fully effective. And from weeks 2-4 they can even make you feel worse. But as somebody who has been through the cycle enough times to now be committed to just taking the drugs forever, all I can say is that committing to trying for those 6-8 weeks is likely the best decision you could ever make.

Wasn't in my mid 20s, just made me apathetic enough to spend 10 years in a unhealthy and abusive relationship.

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Ridge 15:11 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Paul's (incredibly brave and frank) post seems to have nailed the realties of depression. Pretty much all of those thoughts pop into my head some days, and from your posts you're in a similar position.

I understand your view on anti-depressants, but from your posting history your current coping mechanisms clearly aren't working for you.

Could it be you don't actually want to get better, that you're comfortable being this way and the thought of changing your situation has become frightening? I'm genuinely not having a go at you, as I'm pretty attached to my own black dog after a lot of years and would probably miss him if he went.

I'd urge you to have a bit of a think about that before writing off something that could help you now, based on what happened in the past.

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In reply to The Wild Scallion:

If it helps, think of depression as operating like a virus.  A virus invades a cell, hijacks all its functions to make it make more viruses after which the cell then dies.  Depression is hijacking your mental functions in just this way, making you think that nothing can be done so that you'll stay depressed.

I've heard it said that depression is a disease of the strong; you must be strong to have it and still be enduring it, because that isn't easy.  You're intelligent too, but depression has hijacked your brain chemistry and is making that intelligence work so that you'll stay depressed.

Paul has just sent you some outstanding postcards from the land of mental blackness, some of the bravest, most open confessions about what it was like for him when depression hijacked his brain chemistry.  He found a way out.  You can too.

So right now, the strongest, most intelligent thing you can do is phone your GP and make an appointment to discuss all this with them.  If you find it hard to say how you're feeling, print what you've posted on this thread and take it with you.  Don't reject pills, think of each one you take as being one breadcrumb in the trail you have to follow to get out of where you are.  It'll not be an easy trail to follow, and it will take months of breadcrumbs, but you can do it.

The darkest hour is before the dawn.  Go make the sun rise.

T.

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John_Hat 15:21 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I'm rarely lurking on this forum these days, but this topic stood out and I wanted to reply. I've got far more experience in this area than I would wish, both personally and from close friends and family. Much good and practical advice that I might have given has been said above and in that respect I've got little to add.

All I'd say, is that my life has been like most of us, populated with ups and downs. In some bad times, I've felt that no good would ever come again.  So far, I've been wrong. Sometimes it's been a long haul back to the light, but more than once in my life a chance meeting or conversation has unexpectedly turned my life around within weeks.

I look back now and am glad that I was open to the possibility of a future that was better. Because so far every bad time has been followed by something good. Sometimes so good that I would never have believed it possible.

You have my best wishes and sincere hope that your own good times are not far away.

Post edited at 15:25
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In reply to Ridge:

> Paul's (incredibly brave and frank) post seems to have nailed the realties of depression. Pretty much all of those thoughts pop into my head some days, and from your posts you're in a similar position.

Yes a very very good post on the subject. 

> I understand your view on anti-depressants, but from your posting history your current coping mechanisms clearly aren't working for you.

They are most of the time but I have very bad days , however these tend to be days rather than weeks now.

> Could it be you don't actually want to get better, that you're comfortable being this way and the thought of changing your situation has become frightening? I'm genuinely not having a go at you, as I'm pretty attached to my own black dog after a lot of years and would probably miss him if he went.

I want to be my old self , confident ,  good company, cheeky , funny.  With things to look forward to and not the prospect of being alone for the rest of my life, while others  around me have partners and  families and are fulfilling some sort of plan for themselves. 

> I'd urge you to have a bit of a think about that before writing off something that could help you now, based on what happened in the past.

Maybe so, it's possible.  But not wanting a chemical lobotomy is perfectly natural too.  Especially one I have to pay for for the rest of my life. 

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marsbar 16:47 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I didn’t get the right antidepressants the first time.  

The first ones I got made me functional just about, but not in a good way.  

I was lucky that someone persuaded me back to the doctor to try something else.  Now I am my old self again, it’s taken time and work as well, but without the tablets I wouldn’t be here.

You still show signs that your thoughts are not quite right.  

£8 a month is f@#k all when it comes to your health.  Refusing to pay that shows how little you value yourself.   

It’s not right or necessary to feel the way you do. 

If you want to move on with your life and not be alone you stand a better chance if you sort this out. 

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Paul Sagar 17:07 Thu
In reply to marsbar:

Should say that I also didn't get the right SSRIs first time around.

I was originally on Fluoxetine (generic name for the brand Prozac) and whilst it did stop the worst of the depression it made me have the most insane dreams that I later couldn't remember if they were dreams or memories until I sat down and thought "well it featured a flying cow and murdering clowns on a medieval battlefield so I guess it didn't happen".

I'm now on Citalopram and I basically have zero side effects as far as I can tell. I honestly think SSRIs are in the class of wonder drugs, arguably up there with antibiotics in terms of human lives saved and misery reduced. 

(I won't go on a rant here about how much I despise the anti-SSRI conspiracy nonsense you find online...)

Post edited at 17:07
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In reply to marsbar:

> I didn’t get the right antidepressants the first time.  

> The first ones I got made me functional just about, but not in a good way.  

> I was lucky that someone persuaded me back to the doctor to try something else.  Now I am my old self again, it’s taken time and work as well, but without the tablets I wouldn’t be here.

> You still show signs that your thoughts are not quite right.  

Yes I recognize that certainly is the case.  

> £8 a month is f@#k all when it comes to your health.  Refusing to pay that shows how little you value yourself.   

I'd never thought about it that way .  As self value issue.  I approached it as why do I have to pay when other people contributing less to society get everything free. I'm a single male, live alone, no girlfriend, no family, no dependants  manage to live on 9 months salary a year, don't drink anymore, don't do much but have a gym subscription pay all my own way and because society is f*cked I've got to pay more to correct it .  Society should help me for once actually help me rather than putting obstacles in front of me.

> It’s not right or necessary to feel the way you do.

I always put it down to I do because I deserve to.  I'm personally not what society wants , free thinking with my own opinion and not reproducing human meat for the countries grinder.

> If you want to move on with your life and not be alone you stand a better chance if you sort this out. 

Seems like it's a given now pretty much , to old for a family, so again why bother the loneliness is always cyclical and  goes after a while with enough distraction. 

I'd waited my whole life to get financially stable and buy a house and to have enough experience of topics and subjects to be able to pass on this knowledge to another generation of family and not feel like I've failed .  

Probably why I like working in Education.  

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wercat 17:17 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Chemical Lobotomy is not how they are.   You are obviously brimming over with ideas, brain working overtime.   The trouble is that some of these ideas are "not helpful".  The idea of a chemical lobotomy is not right.  These are not tranquilizers to make you into a zombie.  They are something else.

Inside each of us  there is a little "me" - like a little pointer on a scale, except that the scale is not just a line, it extends in lots of directions like a pen touching a piece of paper.

All of the things that the little "me" pen notices coming in from the newsroom of the senses moves it from centre, to indicate how little "me" is threatened, pleased, happy, sad, frightened, hurt, pleasured by the latest "news".

It is more complicated than that because the little me and the news room are also cross linked to a huge library of associations and the associations retrieved with the latest news also have an influence on the little me's position and movement on the scale.

Now in the neutral position you should be feeling OK when there's no new bad news or bad things coming in.    So you react correctly when news comes in, interpreting good news as good news and things needing to be done as things needing to be done.

If you are depressed it is as if the me is, when in neutral, sitting at the wrong position, already "in a bad place" so it can't use the latest news properly - as it is already stressed it misinterprets good news as bad news or at best not good news or not mattering.  Bad news is taken as worse news and information about things needing done is taken as a burden to make you feel worse.

Anti depressants don't take away the little me that is you, and all of its ideas and creativity.  They can help the little me find a proper neutral position where the newsroom and library seem less frightening and can be properly handled.  Chemical responses are less extreme and more appropriate.  They provide the other half of the coin, correcting imbalances while CBT helps you learn the mental tools to protect yourself from "Unhelpful" ideas and thoughts by having a rational examination of them rather than just believing them.

hope this makes sense - based on personal experience

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In reply to wercat:

> Chemical Lobotomy is not how they are.   You are obviously brimming over with ideas, brain working overtime.   The trouble is that some of these ideas are "not helpful".  The idea of a chemical lobotomy is not right.  These are not tranquilizers to make you into a zombie.  They are something else.

> Inside each of us  there is a little "me" - like a little pointer on a scale, except that the scale is not just a line, it extends in lots of directions like a pen touching a piece of paper.

> All of the things that the little "me" pen notices coming in from the newsroom of the senses moves it from centre, to indicate how little "me" is threatened, pleased, happy, sad, frightened, hurt, pleasured by the latest "news".

> It is more complicated than that because the little me and the news room are also cross linked to a huge library of associations and the associations retrieved with the latest news also have an influence on the little me's position and movement on the scale.

> Now in the neutral position you should be feeling OK when there's no new bad news or bad things coming in.    So you react correctly when news comes in, interpreting good news as good news and things needing to be done as things needing to be done.

> If you are depressed it is as if the me is, when in neutral, sitting at the wrong position, already "in a bad place" so it can't use the latest news properly - as it is already stressed it misinterprets good news as bad news or at best not good news or not mattering.  Bad news is taken as worse news and information about things needing done is taken as a burden to make you feel worse.

> Anti depressants don't take away the little me that is you, and all of its ideas and creativity.  They can help the little me find a proper neutral position where the newsroom and library seem less frightening and can be properly handled.  Chemical responses are less extreme and more appropriate.  They provide the other half of the coin, correcting imbalances while CBT helps you learn the mental tools to protect yourself from "Unhelpful" ideas and thoughts by having a rational examination of them rather than just believing them.

> hope this makes sense - based on personal experience

Yes that's a more helpful way to think about it . 

Thing is all of the above I know on a good day, it makes me mad not listening to what I know.  

It's like I'm not even able to access that part of my thinking skills.  

My meditation really helps with this when I can keep it up . Its not very good at getting me out of the black spells.  More of a preventative measure the mindfulness stops the run away thoughts

The eating thing has not been good for about 3 years though.  The self hatred and control desire if left unchecked accelerates my decline 

Post edited at 17:31
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Bobling 17:32 Thu
In reply to wercat:

Wow, that's a really helpful analogy, thank you!

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marsbar 17:48 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

It's not fair that we have to pay and those who don't work get it free.  But unless you fancy moving to Scotland that's just the way it is. 

I'd have to pay for my other meds anyway so I get a years ticket.  

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wercat 18:00 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

You may have too many  sensationalist news reports in "The Library".  The library is quite important because all incoming news is viewed from the perspective of your depressed position and with the screaming Sun and Daily Mail Headlines about you being worthless coming from the library.

The effect of CBT is to put some proper stuff in the library, rational responses, sensible context for your life and some practiced procedures for checking whether the headlines are right before you panic about them.

At least that is how I think of it and it seems to help for me.   But yes, there are good days and there are less good days.   One thing that is worth remembering and reinforcing is to react to feeling bad by reminding yourself that when you get trhough it there will be better times ahead, the bad is only a passing phase.  It can seem very very hard but it can work if you practice hard.

Post edited at 18:01
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In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Should say that I also didn't get the right SSRIs first time around.

> I was originally on Fluoxetine (generic name for the brand Prozac) and whilst it did stop the worst of the depression it made me have the most insane dreams that I later couldn't remember if they were dreams or memories until I sat down and thought "well it featured a flying cow and murdering clowns on a medieval battlefield so I guess it didn't happen".

> I'm now on Citalopram and I basically have zero side effects as far as I can tell. I honestly think SSRIs are in the class of wonder drugs, arguably up there with antibiotics in terms of human lives saved and misery reduced. 

> (I won't go on a rant here about how much I despise the anti-SSRI conspiracy nonsense you find online...)

I don't go for the conspiracy stuff.  What I do think is in most cases depression stems from our not fulfilling our purpose in life, lack of spiritual direction (not subservient to religions dogma) , isolation and other causes.

And of course being f*cked up by others particularly.  

I can't see how genetically the majority can be born lacking brain chemistry to function. In cases yes but not most in my mind.  

What we are born into is a system that is corrupt, not of our creation and made to exploit the individual without any regard to the existential aspects of the human condition.

​​​​​​As an idealist I often think  , well if I've got to play a game I didn't chose, by rules I didn't chose and that are fixed against me I just don't want to play.

​​​​​​

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marsbar 18:12 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I guess I have a much more pragmatic approach. 

It doesn't matter what causes brain chemistry to @#$& up.  

If it's broke then fix it.  

WD40 and gaffer tape won't do it this time. 

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Toerag 22:22 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I don't go for the conspiracy stuff.  What I do think is in most cases depression stems from our not fulfilling our purpose in life, lack of spiritual direction (not subservient to religions dogma) , isolation and other causes.

> What we are born into is a system that is corrupt, not of our creation and made to exploit the individual without any regard to the existential aspects of the human condition.

> ​​​​​​As an idealist I often think  , well if I've got to play a game I didn't chose, by rules I didn't chose and that are fixed against me I just don't want to play.

If you don't like being part of 'the system' then do something about it - go live somewhere where you're not 'part of the system'.  It's becoming obvious that you're quite a deep thinker, which in some ways is good, but in others it isn't. What is anyone's purpose in life? No-one knows. Because of that, it is impossible to judge whether you have fulfilled your purpose or not. So don't worry about it. 

What do you consider 'the game' to be and why are the rules fixed against you (and you in particular)?

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Toerag 22:29 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I always put it down to I do because I deserve to.  I'm personally not what society wants , free thinking with my own opinion and not reproducing human meat for the countries grinder.

> Seems like it's a given now pretty much , to old for a family, so again why bother the loneliness is always cyclical and  goes after a while with enough distraction. 

> I'd waited my whole life to get financially stable and buy a house and to have enough experience of topics and subjects to be able to pass on this knowledge to another generation of family and not feel like I've failed .  

> Probably why I like working in Education.  

1) you're not too old to have a family. It may not be as easy as if you were younger, but you're not too old. I should know, because you're my age.

2) There are loads of 'free-thinking' people out there the same as you, Society values them as much as anyone else. Society needs free-thinkers as much as it needs worker drones.

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spenser 22:46 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Yes a very very good post on the subject. 

There are a few bits in Paul's post which I disagree with in light of some things which I have recently realised, however these aspects are related to codependency/ addiction and may or may not apply to yours and Paul's situations. I'm exploring the impact of this on myself at the moment so I don't feel comfortable explaining it (particularly in such a public place).

> They are most of the time but I have very bad days , however these tend to be days rather than weeks now.

> I want to be my old self , confident ,  good company, cheeky , funny.  With things to look forward to and not the prospect of being alone for the rest of my life, while others  around me have partners and  families and are fulfilling some sort of plan for themselves. 

You were a good laugh to spend a couple of hours chatting to on Tuesday afternoon when we went for coffee. It doesn't really matter if the people around you feel like they are progressing more quickly than you, it's not a race, they've started in a different point and aren't headed for the same destination! It's a bit difficult to write about this in a way which does not sound incredibly trite.

> Maybe so, it's possible.  But not wanting a chemical lobotomy is perfectly natural too.  Especially one I have to pay for for the rest of my life. 

Anti depressants and understanding about how to use them have progressed a fair bit since you were in your 20s I think. They are better looked at as a tool to support your recovery alongside counselling/ CBT/ psycho education to help you maintain a stable state while exploring some quite difficult issues. Once the counselling has been allowed to properly run its course you should theoretically no longer need them (unfortunately this is probably not going to be able to happen with the short periods of counselling which the clinical commissioning group in Derby commissions).

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Paul Sagar 23:01 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

FWIW, society IS f*cked and the world IS going to shit.

Doesn't mean you have to suffer more than everyone else, though. Being on SSRIs hasn't stopped me from sharing a fairly similar outlook to you on how messed up many things are.

I just don't any longer think that the realisation of that screwed-up-ness should mean I have to take it all on my particular shoulders. In the same way as it was said above that we cannot change the past, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to suffer in the future, just because we can't change the fact the world is screwed up doesn't mean we have to suffer more than necessary just because it is screwed up.

The disease will now try to tell you otherwise. But as said by somebody above, think of it as a virus spreading itself. You wouldn't let any other harmful virus spread unchecked through your body - so why let this one spread through your mind?

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Darron 23:11 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I remember you were having a bad time just before last Christmas. I felt for you then and I feel for you now. People on here value your contributions. Your life has as as much meaning as anyone’s. Please do your best to stay strong.

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SenzuBean 23:55 Thu
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Hi TWS,

Hopefully I'm not adding too much to a feeling of being dogpiled....
Anyway, I would like to suggest one activity that you do a few times that has helped me in the past. I personally agree with you that some (some) depression is a rational reaction to circumstances (Rat Park type stuff), but I diagree that this means you don't have any control over it, or shouldn't fix it.

The activity i would suggest is to draw down on a piece of paper, a diagram showing your problems, and what causes them (draw an arrow to represent 'X causes Y'). You may need to try this activity a few times, and include more or less items, and more or less intangibles.
I did this many years ago when I was extremely depressed, and luckily the first time I did it, a good diagram jumped out. Instantly I saw a 'loop' - that one problem caused another, caused another and that caused the first one. This was huge - because without drawing it down, I'd been going around in circles in my head, for months, feeling trapped. I personally believe you're in a similar place, that what is your real problem is not a chemical problem, but a thought loop (one of the symptoms, is low levels of serotonin release).
Once I saw my own thought loop, it was if I was released from it, and could think outside of it, and then I was able to ask for help, solve my problem, break the loop, and then begin to fix the problems.

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In reply to Toerag:

> 1) you're not too old to have a family. It may not be as easy as if you were younger, but you're not too old. I should know, because you're my age.

Being realistic.  Meeting someone, forming deep connection enough to procreate takes time.  I'm soon 44. 

So any woman my own age is not going to want children or actually be capable or already got their own 

They aren't exactly queing up to date me as I'm a retard and probably it's the universe in action , survival of the fittest and all that.  

 I really should try and get over the sense of loss instilled by this  that not having the option makes me angery and resentful at the world, as well as panicked .  

My mother really wanted grand children while my father doesn't give a f*ck about me but just shat on his children , I would have preferred to have not been born and she had gone on to a alternative life free of the hassle I bring. 

Post edited at 02:59
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In reply to spenser:

> You were a good laugh to spend a couple of hours chatting to on Tuesday afternoon when we went for coffee.

Thanks , it was nice to meet you too Spenser.

I felt better for actually getting out and breaking that isolation I feel by meeting up , and the sense of actually doing what I said I would do helped rather than lie in bed hiding.

>It doesn't matter if the people around you feel like they are progressing more quickly than you, it's not a race, they've started in a different point and aren't headed for the same destination! It's a bit difficult to write about this in a way which does not sound incredibly trite.

i know but in this instance i have to at least leave the blocks .  I've been single and isolated for 5 years. Not moved off the start line regards family in any regard. 

So I think I'm just being sensible in my assumption on being alone .

​​​​​

Post edited at 02:47
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In reply to Toerag:

> If you don't like being part of 'the system' then do something about it - go live somewhere where you're not 'part of the system'.  It's becoming obvious that you're quite a deep thinker, which in some ways is good, but in others it isn't. What is anyone's purpose in life? No-one knows. Because of that, it is impossible to judge whether you have fulfilled your purpose or not. So don't worry about it. 

I want the system to care for all humans , not just the ones banging out babies . I don't think isolation is gonna help me .

> What do you consider 'the game' to be and why are the rules fixed against you (and you in particular?.

Having a family, not dying alone.  But because  of who I am and how I look I'm the last choice anyone would pick to bond DNA with it suggests.

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Bobling 08:36 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Morning TWS, hope you didn't stay up toooo late last night?  Nothing else to say other than morning -  it's a cracking day here in Bristol, sun is shining and the first hints for Autumn are in the air.  Can you get out for a walk or ride or something this morning to suck in some of that Vitamin D?  

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In reply to Bobling:

> Morning TWS, hope you didn't stay up toooo late last night?  Nothing else to say other than morning -  it's a cracking day here in Bristol, sun is shining and the first hints for Autumn are in the air.  Can you get out for a walk or ride or something this morning to suck in some of that Vitamin D?  

Morning Bobbling,.  

I couldn't sleep so have been awake since 3 am.  I went to the gym at 5 for a hour and half , did some yoga and now I'm wondering what to do with myself.

I would like to have gone out but I think it's going to be so mega busy and I won't be able to cope with all the people being happy and in groups  with me being on my own on a campsite isolated.

So I'm in limbo as what to do.

I'll probably  wind myself up and get more depressed throughout the day until my head hurts . 

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David Riley 09:19 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

How about that climbing ?

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In reply to David Riley:

> How about that climbing ?

Which climbing do you mean ?

I haven't done any for such a long time now . 

Judging from my performance on these threads whining like a tw*t I'd not climb with me .

Large groups of happy people could just make me withdraw,. Fighting to get on a route a a busy crag worries me. 

I just worry about my reactions to things a lot of the time , I know it's projection , doesn't help with the anxiety  building up pictures of what happened before it's happened.  

If you know what I mean

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David Riley 09:29 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Where would you like to go ?

I can't promise not to be happy.

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David Riley 09:32 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Birchens ?

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In reply to David Riley:

> Birchens ?

I don't mind.  Brain being what it is presently.  Birchens is easy ish and I've soloed more there than anywhere else and done a fair amount I'm my past there so know I can climb it.  Not even sure how my mind will react to heights nowadays , just know I need to try. 

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David Riley 09:47 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Great.  Email me your phone and where I can pick you up.  Does 12:00 suit you ?  

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In reply to David Riley:

> Great.  Email me your phone and where I can pick you up.  Does 12:00 suit you ?  

Ok David you got me , 

Thank you very much . 

Yes 12:00 is good it gives me time to sort out my stuff 

I will email you.  

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Offwidth 11:02 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Just to add my voice to the others above.

Forums give a distorted view of how people are: they are much nicer and kinder in real life. Irrespective, I nearly always enjoy your contributions here and, like others, would be delighted to meet and climb with you one day (indoors .... Derby or Nottingham... or out....I know the Peak as well as anyone). I miss the days when those on UKC met more regularly in person.

Feel free to email me through UKC at any time ...I'm no trained expert... but a few people with similar problems seemed to find it useful over the years. One of my ex students who had a psychotic breakdown is still emailing me 20 years on.

Post edited at 11:03
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> Just to add my voice to the others above.

> Forums give a distorted view of how people are: they are much nicer and kinder in real life. Irrespective, I nearly always enjoy your contributions here and, like others, would be delighted to meet and climb with you one day (indoors .... Derby or Nottingham... or out....I know the Peak as well as anyone). I miss the days when those on UKC met more regularly in person.

Thank you , Offwidth.  

That's lovely of you to say.  

I would like that.

> Feel free to email me through UKC at any time ...I'm no trained expert... but a few people with similar problems seemed to find it useful over the years. One of my ex students who had a psychotic breakdown is still emailing me 20 years on.

Thank you.   

😀

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spenser 11:57 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

My great uncle was in his 50's when his first child was born (his wife was 7 years his junior I think), he was one of the kindest, most compassionate and honourable men and best fathers that I have ever met (unfortunately he died 2 years ago, however he left a fantastic legacy). Plenty of people have relationships with people a bit younger than them, it doesn't always work (like any other combination of people) but it can do. Dating someone who has a kid doesn't necessarily need to be a big deal, they will probably want to check you out a bit first and get to know you before you are introduced to their kid but it doesn't need to be an obstacle provided you don't make it one.

I really don't think that men or women queue up to date anyone really, I know some awesome women who have had quite long breaks between relationships (we're talking incredibly smart, kind, emotionally capableladies who are also brilliant cooks/ bakers and drop dead gorgeous to boot, nothing unattractive about them) as they hadn't found anyone with whom they wanted a relationship. Being single really isn't a big deal if you are happy in your own right, I have recently realised that my desire for a relationship was more heavily driven by wanting to find someone whose life I could become a part of as a way of hiding from my own issues rather than wanting to share my life  with them. If you can get yourself sorted first you will find a relationship to be far more rewarding and easier to start.

A long time ago a friend helped me to understand that the world owed me nothing. It didn't matter what my mother's boyfriend had done to me when I was a child, or who had let me down. It is incredibly difficult to develop healthy relationships (either platonic or romantic) if you are asking someone to compensate for something they hold no responsibility for, particularly while you are developing a relationship with them.

I'm sorry that your father treated you poorly, I'll send you an email with something which will hopefully help you see that it doesn't mean that you deserve to suffer or that your treatment as a child needs to dictate your value as a person (it explains what happened to me as a child, documents all of the impacts which I perceive my treatment during childhood as having had on my life and who failed me). I strongly advise not pushing on with reading it if you are feeling a bit rough as it IS quite a full on document.

Your mother may have wanted grandchildren, but that really doesn't matter. What does matter is do YOU want children for your own reasons? Kids are a REALLY big commitment to have if you are having them for your own reasons, if you have felt forced into having them it is possible that you will resent them. It's your life mate, there is no problem with doing what YOU want to do with your life and being the person which YOU want to be.

If you want to go for a brew you're more than welcome to give me a shout (equally playing some board games or some such), once I can move my right arm I will be keen to get back out on the rock.

If you want a walk perhaps hed over to Longnor and go over Chrome Hill, it's a fine hill and should be pretty quiet on a Friday afternoon, no need for dealing with groups of people. Another good option would be to do part of the Derby Nomad's Way, it's not the most scenic walking but you're unlikely to find any/ much company on that.

I hope that helps, sorry for it all being a bit fragmented, great to see that you have had an offer of someone to take you out climbing, enjoy the sun!

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Toerag 12:23 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Judging from my performance on these threads whining like a tw*t I'd not climb with me .

Poppycock! You 'whine' because you're feeling sorry for yourself and sitting in your house doing nothing. I also think that your audience here doesn't consider you to be a whiner - we get a thread like this every so often, but you're not whining, you're simply using us as a sounding board because we're always here for you. If you go out climbing you'll be too busy to whine, and there'd be other things to talk about. You're stuck in a cycle of not going out because you think you won't fit in, yet by not going out you make it harder to fit in.  Both my wife and ex struggled in a similar fashion when they moved here because my group of friends went way back and neither of them could join in the conversations about the past becasue they weren't part of that past. The only solution was to join in activities to form shared memories which they then could talk about. It took time, but friendships did form and things got much better for them.  I would suggest you ban yourself from your house for at least some of the time and commit to being sociable. Join a yoga class rather than doing it on your own at home. Join a climbing club instead of soloing. Commit to meeting an old friend regularly.  I'd climb with you if I didn't live hundreds of miles away.

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Toerag 12:31 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

>  Large groups of happy people could just make me withdraw,. Fighting to get on a route a a busy crag worries me. 

> I just worry about my reactions to things a lot of the time , I know it's projection , doesn't help with the anxiety  building up pictures of what happened before it's happened.  

> If you know what I mean

I know what you mean as a friend started suffering with depression and anxiety recently. Again, it's the voice in your head talking bollocks to you (and you know it is!). Fighting for a route? do a different one, life's too short for that. Large groups of happy people? Who cares, there could be large groups of unhappy people, or 'happy' people in those groups may not actually be happy, they're just putting on a face. It doesn't matter what everyone else is feeling or doing, just go out and have fun for yourself. It's like those people posting their great life on FB - it's not always great, you just don't get to see the bad days they have. One 'great life' post a week gives them 6 days of 'shit life' they're not posting about.

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Toerag 12:35 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

>  Not even sure how my mind will react to heights nowadays , just know I need to try

^^this. Apply it to everything. Leaving the house. Eating properly. Speaking to someone you've been too scared to speak to.

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Toerag 12:40 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I want the system to care for all humans , not just the ones banging out babies . I don't think isolation is gonna help me .

> Having a family, not dying alone.  But because  of who I am and how I look I'm the last choice anyone would pick to bond DNA with it suggests.


That's the thing, the system does care about everyone these days.  There's so many single people & divorcees these days it isn't the stigma it once was.  You've loads of time to not die alone so you don't even need to worry about that. Looks? Plenty of ugly people in relationships.  You've been in relationships before, yet I'm sure you looked pretty much the same then.  There's always someone for everyone regardless of looks, you just need to get out there and find that person.

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Toerag 12:52 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Being realistic.  Meeting someone, forming deep connection enough to procreate takes time.  I'm soon 44. 

> So any woman my own age is not going to want children or actually be capable or already got their own 

It doesn't matter if they already have their own. Granted, it's not the same, but it's not the end of the world if she's the right one to grow old with.  In Germany there's an expression that roughly translates as 'time of life partner' - there's always someone out there, it's not necessarily the same person for the whole of your life. Someone who was right to have fun with isn't perhaps the person to have kids with, or to grow old with. That divorcee with teenage kids may be the person to grow old with. As someone workign in education you have a lot to give to kids even if they're not biologically yours.

> They aren't exactly queing up to date me as I'm a retard and probably it's the universe in action , survival of the fittest and all that.  

Oi, less of the negative vibes man!

>  I really should try and get over the sense of loss instilled by this  that not having the option makes me angery and resentful at the world, as well as panicked .  

I think that would be a massive boost for you. Losing that millstone will open up a whole world of goodness.

> My mother really wanted grand children while my father doesn't give a f*ck about me but just shat on his children , I would have preferred to have not been born and she had gone on to a alternative life free of the hassle I bring. 


A friend of mine met her partner when she was 32 and he was 50. Two kids now.

Another friend started fostering at 41 as a single parent.

You're not too old. Get out there. 

Post edited at 12:53
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In reply to The Wild Scallion:

A quick optimistic update for everyone .

I had a great day out today with David.  

Just what I needed , I've managed to see and touch real rock and lead 2 routes myself and met a new friend. 

I'm so happy right now.  

 My technique needs a good working on , grit rash hurts in a hot bath.  

😀

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upordown 21:36 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Yay! That's brilliant (apart from the grit rash).

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Paul Sagar 21:39 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

That’s the spirit! And with autumn knocking, grit season is just around the corner...

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In reply to The Wild Scallion:

That's so lovely to hear. Climbing is such a tonic. There's so much shit in this world, but please just keep on going out there, mixing with the right wonderful people in these wonderful places.

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Bobling 23:52 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> A quick optimistic update for everyone .

> I had a great day out today with David.  

> Just what I needed , I've managed to see and touch real rock and lead 2 routes myself and met a new friend. 

> I'm so happy right now.  

>  My technique needs a good working on , grit rash hurts in a hot bath.  

> 😀

Take a bow TWS and David, brilliant stuff!

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Blue Straggler 00:42 Sat
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Great to hear this, thanks for sharing it 

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wercat 09:26 Sat
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

see, good things turn up quite suddenly and everything changes!  Just remember next time you're down that it's temporary and you CAN get through it.

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marsbar 10:12 Sat
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Pleased to hear you had a good day

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BusyLizzie 11:04 Sat
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> A quick optimistic update for everyone .

> I had a great day out today with David.  

> Just what I needed , I've managed to see and touch real rock and lead 2 routes myself and met a new friend. 

What an achievement!!! That is fantastic and I am so pleased, and so are we all.

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David Riley 11:57 Sat

I expected TWS to be shy, depressed, have no money, job or car.
He was happy, could give lessons in conversation, and enthusiastic.  He has a good job, car, recently bought a house, which he is working on, is a picture of health, ideal weight and strong.  My girlfriend said he is good looking.  He's very active and motivated, competent and confident climbing.  Excellent company. Typical manic depressive I'd think. We all behave like that to a greater or lesser degree.
TWS  I'm sure you won't mind this post, mainly intended to allay the concerns of others.
Looking forward to the next trip.  Thanks.

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In reply to David Riley:

> I expected TWS to be shy, depressed, have no money, job or car.

> He was happy, could give lessons in conversation, and enthusiastic.  He has a good job, car, recently bought a house, which he is working on, is a picture of health, ideal weight and strong.  My girlfriend said he is good looking.  He's very active and motivated, competent and confident climbing.  Excellent company. Typical manic depressive I'd think. We all behave like that to a greater or lesser degree.

> TWS  I'm sure you won't mind this post, mainly intended to allay the concerns of others.

> Looking forward to the next trip.  Thanks.

That's very kind David. 

I'm glad I made a good impression.

Thank you . 

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spenser 16:53 Sat
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Sounds like you had a canny day out, you haven't been trying on the grit if you haven't got grit rash!

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In reply to spenser:

> Sounds like you had a canny day out, you haven't been trying on the grit if you haven't got grit rash!

It was a great day and a good start back into climbing .  

Looking back at my logbook and I climbed 4 easy routes in 2017 when I tried to get back into it, but apart from that hadn't climbed anything serious since 2013 ( golden yardstick) 

So being able to lead severe 4a and a severe with 5a start and follow David on a HVS 5b  was really encouraging.

​​​​​​In fact I'm considering it amazing . 

:-D

​​​​​​

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machine 01:31 Sun
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Wise up! Go where the weather is good. Get rid of the negative. Surround yourself with good positive like minded people. Train hard, Try hard and you will be rewarded.

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