UKC

No, not Boris, one of the other 3:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403

I couldn't have put it better myself, so I won't.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Is there anyone left standing who can put forward a case for continuing along this Brexit path that doesn't involve pig-headed insistence that we press ahead regardless of political, economic and human cost simply because a slight majority of voters 2 years ago thought the outcome of their choice would be far rosier than is proving possible?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Would anyone else have a quiet chortle if Jo Johnson somehow became the next prime minister 

In reply to stevieb:

Doubt anyone on here would like him, Eton, Oxford, Bullingdon Club, Ex banker....hits every trigger point

In reply to john arran:

yes, it’s quite clear that a huge number of people (20 million plus) still see this as their preferred option. Alternative messages, of significant economic damage have not been accepted. going Back on the referendum without a significant mandate will be hugely damaging 

 

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I'd prefer him to just about any of the alternatives. I'd even vote for him if it meant there was a  chance my grandchildren could continue to grow up within the EU.

In reply to stevieb:

I agree that plenty of people still support Brexit, but my question was whether any of them can still make a reasoned case for it!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I'm more than ever convinced that the whole Brexit shenannigans is just Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, rewritten for the modern age.  Rather than rewrite Mark Antony's most well-known bits of the speech 'I come to bury Brexit, not to praise it', I'll give you another quote from a little later on.

"O, what a fall was there, my countrymen!
Then I, and you, and all of us fell down,
Whilst bloody treason flourish'd over us."

So who in the cabinet has a lean and hungry look?

T.

In reply to john arran:

Well, I wouldn't claim for one second that it's a good case for Brexit, but it is a possible argument why reversing Brexit could be worse.

Two and a half years down the line, there has been no mass scales falling from the eyes, and it's hard to believe that there will be.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rees+mogg+images&rlz=1C1DSGZ_enGB640G...:

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Wow. A sane voice at last.

Who would have guessed it would be a Johnson...?

In reply to john arran:

I'm not sure many brexit voters could ever make a reasoned case for it. It wasn't a vote about reason, it was a vote about belief. Or anger/disenchantment.

In reply to stevieb:

That doesn't make much sense, firstly you overinflated the 2016 support for leaving, secondly given parliament has tied its hands the only way brexit can be stopped is by 'the people', that isn't brexit being taken from us, it is a rejection of its reality by us. I happen to think we'd be convinced to accept it anyway but a second referendum is essential if the government is to be held to account, to deliver a brexit for the brexit voters, not for the back benches. I hope we'll reject it since I've personally yet to be convinced there is a good version available.

And there won't be, it's a divisive issue around which people have built identities. It's still worth checking we want what is delivered rather than what is offered.

Jk

In reply to captain paranoia:

If you ask me there's a lot of Johnson's running this particular show

In reply to jkarran:

I’m not stating the 2016 vote. Im saying that over 30% of the population are still very much in favour of brexit. I may be inflating the number of five year olds with strong opinions, but I’d stand by the percentage. 

secondly given parliament has tied its hands the only way brexit can be stopped is by 'the people', that isn't brexit being taken from us, it is a rejection of its reality by us. I happen to think we'd be convinced to accept it anyway but a second referendum is essential if the government is to be held to account, to deliver a brexit for the brexit voters, not for the back benches. I hope we'll reject it since I've personally yet to be convinced there is a good version available.

I haven’t made any claim on whether we should have a referendum or not, I hope we do. I have disputed the overwhelming remainer certainty that there is no sensible alternative viewpoint. There is a legitimate argument that continued trust in our democracy is more significant than dealing with (a soft) brexit. 

In reply to stevieb:

20 million plus? You appear to making things up. Anyhow, the result of any future referendum (not that I expect one) would be at least as legitimate a mandate as the last, arguably much more so, as the vote would be carried out with much more information available to the public.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:Another referendum needs a rider attatched that any MP proven to be lying to the electorate loses his job and pension rights with no appeal!

In reply to stevieb:

Pragmatically politicians should be a lot less scared of annoying the Brexiters than annoying the remainers.   Not getting Brexit doesn't rip apart anybody's family or lose them their job.  There's no life-changing damage sufficient to really provoke someone.  Things just stay the same - a situation the Brexiters could live with reasonably happily for the last 40 years.   Most Brexiters are just responding to nonsense they read in the newspaper, leaving the EU is not central to their lives.  The provocation of going through with Brexit to remainers with business or family ties to the EU is a hundred times larger.

The other factor is the demographics of remainers vs brexiters.    Remainers are younger, better educated and better off, more of them have professional careers.    The economic damage which skilled people can inflict, quietly and in completely legal ways is hundreds of times worse than angry people throwing bricks.   The middle manager from Airbus or BMW who is angry about the way he or his family were treated during Brexit is quite likely to find a few cogent arguments for not making the next major investment in the UK.  A new graduate who decides they don't want to stay in the UK loses the country the value of an entire working life.   A professional person moving their savings abroad or a company restructuring to route sales through a letterbox firm in the EU have a real cost for the UK economy.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Do you really think people will intentionally harm their own countries economy because they were annoyed about Brexit not going their way? 

When we leave the EU Britain will be under economic pressure as it focuses its energy on adapting to its new trading environment. To then purposely try to make things worse for your home nation just to say "I told you so" in terms of economic impact seems stupid to me. 

You would people rather be wrong and live in a more prosperous nation or turn out right but be poorer? What you describe is like a child throwing their toys out of the pram because they had a tantrum. 

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I think they'll do it in a second.  Not all of them, probably not even the majority of them but there are 3 million EU citizens in the UK which means maybe another 2 million UK citizens who have family members in that situation.   You f*ck with people's families or their livelihood and a significant number of them are going to retaliate.  If they have economic power it isn't going to be pleasant.

Angry people do stupid things all the time.  Many of them will not think of the UK as their nation any more.  They'll feel rejected by the UK.  They have no reason not to make decisions which benefit them and hurt the UK.  The UK is choosing to throw away a massive amount of goodwill.

Children throw toys out of prams all the time - even if your analogy is correct it isn't an argument against it happening.   Moreover a lot of the angry people won't be living in the UK any more - their personal economics are no longer tied to the UK.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

i certainly dont intend harming anyone; but i am very much accelerating the process of moving to france. Given the way things have gone here recently, i no longer really recognise the UK as "my" country. As with everyone else, i will be looking merely to provide the best opportunities and life for me and my family. Post brexit, this won't be in the UK.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

This news prompted an infuriating discussion with a Brexiteer on PM where his argument against holding a second referendum was:

"But how could we make a rational choice when we don't know the outcome of Brexit until we've left on the 29th of March, until we've had the implementation period, if we get a deal."

Are you kidding me?! I mean, sure, there's still uncertainty but we know more now than we did back when the original referendum happened. So if your argument is that we're too uninformed for a referendum to have any value then how can you insist with a straight face that the last referendum should be sacrosanct?

About 35 minutes into today's PM: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0001291

In reply to Luke90:

Your point is well made but sadly rather too subtle for the current climate.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Like voting for brexit...

In reply to Ian W:

Out of interest, what does that mean? When exactly are you leaving the UK for France?

In reply to krikoman:

That's my immediate reaction too.

But back to the details of this particular Johnson: can anyone tell me anything good he's done in his job (just resigned) as Minister for Transport? Or, before that, as Minister for Universities?

 

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Cunning plan originally was to semi retire in 3 ish years youngest will have left school), but am in a kind of limbo; want to get somewhere to live / rent out now, and see how quickly we can sort residency. Looking unclear now even for those already resident, so not even sure if it will be possible if we drop out and become a "third nation" next march. Doing much research to see what we need to do depending on different timescales, but its confusing to say the least.

might end up PM'ing John Arran to see what to do.....

Why you asking? are you in the same position?

In reply to Ian W:

You're welcome to try, but I do believe he's as clueless as everyone else, including the UK government, when it comes to knowing what state our relations with other EU countries will be after March.

In reply to captain paranoia:

...and that anger/disenchantment has probably grown, driven by a pro-Brexit press which blames the EU for failing to offer us the perfect deal. Rather like Trump supporters, the angry people see any evidence as just “fake news” created by an elite which despises them. 

 

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I find it interesting that when I worked in central Government I was involved with quite a few changes in policy.

Irrespective of the impetus for the change when presenting the case for change to ministers or responding to suggestions for change from ministers, our presentation was the same.

 

We had to,

outline the current position,

say what the change was and why the change was being suggested,

collate information to allow us to list the advantages and disadvantages of the change,

provide costings for the change.

 

Seems this was sadly lacking in the lead up to the referendum and the Government is still happy to continue with a result based on far less information than they would have ever allowed for one of their own policies.

Dave

 

 

 

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Dunno, but the way he made his case and dealt with quite an aggressive Nick Robinson this morning was exemplary.

'I'm not asking for a second referendum, I'm advocating a first based now we know what Brexit is actually going to entail.'

If he could touch his brother up for a tad more charisma, he could yet give JRM a run for his money...

 

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Charisma... hmmmm...

Maybe Boris has a spare dogwhistle?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

If Corbyn did his job and started making arguments like that this nonsense would be over in a month.  I used to think he was just a waste of space but when he still comes out with bullsh*t like 'Brexit cannot be reversed' after there's polling data saying 56% of people now want to stay in the EU maybe there's more to it.   Corbyn hung around on the very far left for an awful lot of years when Russia was funding it and it's a bit of a coincidence he is now clinging so desperately to Brexit - a policy which plays to Russia's strategic agenda of weakening the EU - when it is blatantly obvious that the right move for  Labour is to move to the centre ground and hoover up the Remain vote.

 

In reply to stevieb:

It doesn't really matter how many people claim to be in favour of a course of action that is, in any practical terms, impossible. 

In reply to john arran:

Thanks for the offer anyway! There does seem to be confusion in all quarters......

 

In reply to Removed User:

Would this apply to MP’s in the event of a rerun, or would you apply this to MP’s any time and other public officials/the press/business leaders.  All of the above have lied to us at some point, mostly to cover their sacred behinds!

In reply to kipper12:

Any public official who is elected

 

In reply to Removed User:

So ‘lying Newspaper editors/business leaders have Carte Blanche to carry on.  

In reply to stevieb:

Not so much scales falling from eyes as not, in reality, engaging with the issue - didn't then , aren't now. that's why supposedly we have politicians and a functioning cicvil service to make these complicated choices for us.