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Keep your shoplifting < £200. And you'll be reet

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 The Lemming 27 Dec 2017
And if you get caught then just plead by post. No need to pay any fines because crime really does pay.

However if you are a law abiding citizen with a taxed and MoT car, then you're scrrewed because you are an easy target to top up those crime figures.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42492488
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 Rob Exile Ward 27 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Glad to see the spirit of Christmas, the concern for others who may be less fortunate than ourselves, is alive and well in Blackpool.
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Deadeye 27 Dec 2017
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> ... others who may be less fortunate than ourselves

Are you genuinely an apologist for stealing?

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 Ciro 27 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Sounds like there's a back story here... when did you get done for abiding the law?
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 Rob Exile Ward 27 Dec 2017
In reply to Deadeye:

It's hard sometimes to believe we're not still in Victorian times.
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 gethin_allen 27 Dec 2017

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Glad to see the spirit of Christmas, the concern for others who may be less fortunate than ourselves, is alive and well in Blackpool.


Try having this conversation with the owner of a small business.

If you want to give hundreds of £££ to those who are who are " less fortunate" then brilliant but, who's to say that you won't be giving your cash to a shop worker who's had their hours cut because times are tight and the margins are being skimmed by shop lifters.
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Removed User 27 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Does anyone know how you get away with not paying a fine?
 Timmd 27 Dec 2017
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
> It's hard sometimes to believe we're not still in Victorian times.

Irrespective of the story in the OP, the harshness of that era can seem to be coming back again, to do with growing inequality and the spread of poverty.

When working parents 'choose' not to eat to let their children have both heating and food, that seems quite Victorian.
Post edited at 23:06
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 Big Ger 27 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

Do you have an example of that happening Timmd?
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 Rob Exile Ward 28 Dec 2017
In reply to gethin_allen:

I am the owner of a small business.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I am the owner of a small business.

So?
I dislike the implication that stealing from Tesco's would be alright though. We all suffer as the respect for law and ideas of honesty start to seem quaint and naive.
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 gethin_allen 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I am the owner of a small business.

Does this business have a open shop and can you honestly say that you can afford to see £200 walk out the door regularly?

I doubt it but you'll probably say you can just for argument sake.
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 Dax H 28 Dec 2017
In reply to gethin_allen:

I run a small business, I don't have an open shop and I certainly couldn't afford to see £200 walk away on a regular basis.

I also have quite a few friends and business associates who do run shops and shop lifting is a massive problem for them.
One mate of mine runs a corner shop selling cheap items. He has built his business on scouring the offers at wholesalers, buying up the bargains and passing the savings on to his customers, it's low margin high volume trade and shop lifting puts a big dent in his bottom line.
Its not the poor and starving that are always to blame either.
A couple of weeks a go a range rover pulled up and a very well dressed couple came in, Taz smelled a rat and got his brothers out of the stick room and they moved on without buying or sealing anything.
A bit later on the owner of the florist further up the street came in with a tale of woe.
This nice couple asked for something that was in the back, he was off the floor for less than one minute but in that time they had his laptop, phone and till and away out the door.
Nieve of the florist but its his first foray in to shop ownership.
 Lord_ash2000 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

> Irrespective of the story in the OP, the harshness of that era can seem to be coming back again, to do with growing inequality and the spread of poverty.

Just a quick note but inequaily is not growing but shrinking and has been for years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40644850

It's not to say that average quailty of life has nesserialy risen but this inequality thing just seems to get tagged on to anything when someone is moaning about the plite of the less well off.

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 elsewhere 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Just a quick note but inequaily is not growing but shrinking and has been for years.


> It's not to say that average quailty of life has nesserialy risen but this inequality thing just seems to get tagged on to anything when someone is moaning about the plite of the less well off.

Contrasting views from ft and guardian.

https://www.ft.com/content/fc4a3980-e86f-11e6-967b-c88452263daf

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/10/uk-inequality-working-peopl...
 8A machine elf 28 Dec 2017
In reply to gethin_allen:

> In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Try having this conversation with the owner of a small business.

> If you want to give hundreds of £££ to those who are who are " less fortunate" then brilliant but, who's to say that you won't be giving your cash to a shop worker who's had their hours cut because times are tight and the margins are being skimmed by shop lifters.

If you want to state the circumstances in which workers are faced with insufficient hours to get by on then the chances are 90% will have the misfortune to work for a different kind of thief and one which does much more damage.
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 pec 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> It's hard sometimes to believe we're not still in Victorian times. >

No it isn't, it isn't really hard at all.
In fact you wouldn't have to be transported back to Victorian for more than about 2 mins to realise it nothing like Victorian times at all now.
I know it suits your political agenda to pretend we're still sending 7 year olds up chimneys but that's a large part of why Labour lose elections so often.
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 Cú Chullain 28 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Surprised there has not been a ‘it’s just stuff’ comment yet that these type of threads typically attract.
 trouserburp 28 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

I suspect that those who voted for the Conservatives, massive cuts to the Police and therefore this, will generally be the ones up in arms about it

Can't do the time don't do the crime
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 8A machine elf 28 Dec 2017
In reply to pec:

> No it isn't, it isn't really hard at all.

> In fact you wouldn't have to be transported back to Victorian for more than about 2 mins to realise it nothing like Victorian times at all now.

> I know it suits your political agenda to pretend we're still sending 7 year olds up chimneys but that's a large part of why Labour lose elections so often.

Anyone can see references to victorian britain with respekt to the present Tories is purely economical and social rather than terms Of development though of course if it were up to the Tory public school toffs children would still be at work.

Obviously Rob is refering to the fact that poor Victorian workers relied on charity to survive and in Tory or right wing Britain over 1 million 3 day foodbank handouts were dished out by charities to poor and working families in Britain in 2017.

Why am i having to point out the obvious?
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 pec 28 Dec 2017
In reply to 8A machine elf:

> Why am i having to point out the obvious? >

Obvious to whom?
Its probably "obvious" to those who are so blinkered by their ideology that they can't see there is no meaningful comparison to be made between Victorian Britain and early C21st Britain. To the rest of us, such comparisons are spurious bollocks.

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 Timmd 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Do you have an example of that happening Timmd?

Not off the top of my head, but I've come across examples, and one mother being told by her doctor she was risking her health by not eating. It's definitely happening.
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 Timmd 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Just a quick note but inequaily is not growing but shrinking and has been for years.


> It's not to say that average quailty of life has nesserialy risen but this inequality thing just seems to get tagged on to anything when someone is moaning about the plite of the less well off.

I saw somewhere else that it'd started to increase again. Thanks for that, it's always good to be corrected. I'll try and find the figures I had in mind.
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 Rob Exile Ward 28 Dec 2017
In reply to pec:

There is real poverty - not relative - in this country, and it is growing. The gruesome implementation of universal credit - in itself a perfectly sensible direction of travel - has, for example, left families already on the poverty line, waiting for weeks and months for any payments. What are poor people supposed to do?

Private companies are incentivised to reduce disability claims; again, I am all for stopping payments to those who aren't entitled - it's called fraud- but the blunt instruments that this government tends to use have an entirely disproportionate effect on the poorest and most vulnerable. If someone's entitlement is stopped what are they supposed to do?

Of course I don't condone theft - we've been targeted on a couple of occasions, and it is frustrating and annoying, and distressing for staff, when these hopeless clowns steal to feed their drug habits. But the simplicity of the OP's position to what is no doubt a rather more complex issue, distilled into a simple sentence 'so everyone can understand' , is yes, Victorian, when complex issues of poverty, crime, unemployment and deprivation were conflated into simplistic responses: workhouses, long prison sentences, deportation, and ultimately (as in Ireland), the acceptance of starvation as a legitimate outcome.
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 Luke90 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

I think the problem is that there's no single, simple method of measuring "inequality". Perhaps economists have a commonly agreed measure but to everybody else, and possibly economists themselves, it could have a multitude of meanings each with multiple possible ways to measure them which could easily be moving in different directions at the same time.
 Timmd 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Luke90:

That makes a lot of sense.
 Big Ger 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

> Not off the top of my head, but I've come across examples, and one mother being told by her doctor she was risking her health by not eating. It's definitely happening.

Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.
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 JackM92 28 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

I work stacking shelves at said local convenience store in north Wales and the only thing anyone ever steals is booze...

 Martin W 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.

Two examples from papers I'd assumed you read:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241079/Mother-Vickie-Robins-Quedge...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/mother-tongue/9084054/Mums-missing-meals-t...

Not being able to be arsed to do a quick Google before decrying someone else's claims is pretty much par for the course in terms of your credibility - never let awkward things like evidence or facts get in the way of a smug, self-satisfied opinion.
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 pec 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Well lets for the sake of argument accept your first two paragraphs to be accurate

> There is real poverty - not relative - in this country, and it is growing. The gruesome implementation of universal credit - in itself a perfectly sensible direction of travel - has, for example, left families already on the poverty line, waiting for weeks and months for any payments. What are poor people supposed to do?

> Private companies are incentivised to reduce disability claims; again, I am all for stopping payments to those who aren't entitled - it's called fraud- but the blunt instruments that this government tends to use have an entirely disproportionate effect on the poorest and most vulnerable. If someone's entitlement is stopped what are they supposed to do? >

That still doesn't mean there is any meaningful comparison between early C21st Britain and Victorian Britain as your third paragraph amply demonstrates

> workhouses, long prison sentences, deportation, and ultimately (as in Ireland), the acceptance of starvation as a legitimate outcome. >

Look, nobody is saying there isn't some genuine hardship out there and I do scratch my head and wonder sometimes how the government has allowed the roll out of universal credit to undermine the very sensible principles which underlie it. But poverty on the scale that it existed in Victorian times simply does not exist now and many people now living below the poverty line today enjoy a standard of living which many quite wealthy Victorians couldn't even have dreamt of.

From this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/04/10/there-is-no-victorian-s...

Some perspective on your spurious comparison

"Late 19th century Britain had some 25% of the population living at or below the subsistence level. This subsistence level is not a measure of inequality, . . . . It is a measure of gaining enough calories each day in order to prolong life. The sort of level of poverty that the World Bank currently uses as a measure of "absolute poverty".

This absolute poverty is set at $1.25 per person per day. No, this is not the number that can be spent upon food per person per day. This is the amount that can be spent upon everything per person per day. This covers shelter, clothing, heating, cooking, food, education, pensions, health care, absolutely everything. This number is also inflation adjusted, so we are not talking about $1.25 a day when bread was one cent a gallon loaf. This number is also Purchasing Power Parity adjusted: so we are not talking about lentils costing two cents a tonne in India and £3 a kg in Tesco . We are adjusting for those price differences across geography and time."

And then there's this:

"being on the minimum wage in the UK puts you in the top 10% of all income earniers in the current world. Being on nothing at all but benefits would put you into the top 20%."

And this:

"Actual real starvation to death as a result of poverty was not unknown, even that late, as late as 1890."

I could go on but if you can't see what rubbish your comparison is by now you probably never will.

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 Big Ger 28 Dec 2017
In reply to Martin W:

Oh joy.

One example of a "middle class mother" from 2012, and some "research by Netmums", funnily enough also from 2012.


Now then, to address your childish personal attack; it's not up to the person questioning someone's assertion to "do a google search" to prove the person they are debating right, is it?

Also, as no credible evidence was provided by the person making the assertion, then there was no evidence or facts to get in the way of my querying them.

But there again, childish personal attacks are pretty much par for the course in terms of your credibility. Grow up.

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 Timmd 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:
> Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.

Not at all, I saw the woman on TV talking about her experiences, having been told by the doctor that she was at risk of damaging her health if she continued to skip meals after collapsing. I had a feeling you were going to say that, though. Given the rise in the use of food banks, even without my having an example of an individual person to provide for you, it wouldn't be implausible anyway, that some parents were skipping meals to feed their children.

Did you know that increases in the frequency of rickets in children have been observed by medical professionals in the UK?
Post edited at 14:55
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 wbo 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:> Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.
Oh, the irony!
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 Timmd 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:
> Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.

My credibility among strangers on a climbing forum isn't very high on my list of things to think about. You can take my word for it that I've come across examples, which I've neglected to think about bookmarking on the internet in case it came up in a discussion like this, or you can decide not to, that's up to you, it doesn't bother me at all on a personal level. What does bother me, is that the reality of children and/or parents being hungry might not be appreciated by some.

I've noticed that googleable examples of individuals don't exactly appear on the first pages, and indeed are hard to find, and considered why this might be, and then thought how embarrassing it must be for a parent if they were known to be having to skip meals to feed their child/ren.

What is easy to google, is that teachers are taking food in off their own bat for children who haven't had breakfast, which can be read about in the link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/a-quarter-of-tea...

What is also googleable (but not linked to because I've things to do), is the rise in the use of food banks, and also that schools and certain organisations talk about pupils going hungry during school holidays, due to not having access to free school meals. When looked at as part of a bigger picture, I think these three things lend credibility to the idea that parents are going hungry to make sure their children don't.
Post edited at 17:12
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 Timmd 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:
A link about teachers providing breakfast for pupils.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/a-quarter-of-tea...
Post edited at 18:31
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 Big Ger 30 Dec 2017
In reply to wbo:

> > Another "man in the pub" story, or "I've got a friend who said" anecdote, doesn't really help your credibility mate.

> Oh, the irony!


Really? Please point out where i have used anecdotal information? Or do you not know the meaning of "irony"?
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 Big Ger 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

> Not at all, I saw the woman on TV talking about her experiences, having been told by the doctor that she was at risk of damaging her health if she continued to skip meals after collapsing. I had a feeling you were going to say that, though. Given the rise in the use of food banks, even without my having an example of an individual person to provide for you, it wouldn't be implausible anyway, that some parents were skipping meals to feed their children.

I'm not saying it is implausible old mate, I was just asking for your example so we could examine it.

> Did you know that increases in the frequency of rickets in children have been observed by medical professionals in the UK?

Do you know that this is caused by poverty? Or could it be caused by feckless parents feeding kids on crap food? It's possible for wealthy parents to do that.

 Big Ger 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Timmd:

> My credibility among strangers on a climbing forum isn't very high on my list of things to think about.

Yes, but people have noted your tendency to have "a friend", or "someone I spoke to" or "someone I know:" example for every situation you care to comment on, and, as I said, the frequency with which you use these unsubstantiated examples tends to make your credibility lessen.

You do want people to find your points credible, do you not?

> What is easy to google, is that teachers are taking food in off their own bat for children who haven't had breakfast, which can be read about in the link below.

Again I have to point out to you, that this is not necessarily an indicator of any poverty. It could be pure bad parenting.
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 8A machine elf 31 Dec 2017
In reply to pec:
> Its probably "obvious" to those who are so blinkered by their ideology that they can't see there is no meaningful comparison to be made between Victorian Britain and early C21st Britain. To the rest of us, such comparisons are spurious bollocks.

I'll repeat my comparison since you appear so blinkered by your ideology that you missed it the first time-

In victorian Britain the poor and workers relied on charity to put food on the table and in Britain in 2017 one million 3 day emergency food packages were handed out by foodbank CHARITIES to the poor and workers who were struggling to feed their families.

Capiche ?

Im on a phone so i cant see your link by Forbes ( is that Forbes magazine ?) but i look at your figure about the minumum wage in uk but that doesnt appear to take into account the very high cost of living here though does it and how that swipes a great deal off the wages of those on minumum wage.

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 Dax H 31 Dec 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Yes, but people have noted your tendency to have "a friend", or "someone I spoke to" or "someone I know:" example for every situation you care to comment on, and, as I said, the frequency with which you use these unsubstantiated examples tends to make your credibility lessen.

I normally agree with a lot of what you post but not this comment.
Some people know a lot of people and have experiences of a much broader pool than others.
I am a serial changer of sports, over the last 30 years I have done dozens of sports and activities and each one has developed in to a new circle of friends, on top of that working all over the North of the country brings me in contact with hundreds more people.

So is this story credible to you?
A mate of mine uses food banks because its the only way he can afford food for himself and his wife.
But he drives a rangrover (old one but it drink petrol for fun).
Goes clay shooting every Sunday (£22 a time plus getting there)
Has a £40 a month phone contract
Has a dog the size of a small horse and is looking to get another one.

There are a lot of skint people who need help out there but there are also a lot of people who are skint because their priorities are wrong.
 Jim Hamilton 31 Dec 2017
In reply to 8A machine elf:

> In victorian Britain the poor and workers relied on charity to put food on the table and in Britain in 2017 one million 3 day emergency food packages were handed out by foodbank CHARITIES to the poor and workers who were struggling to feed their families.

In Victorian Britain -

.. 'relief should be given only in workhouses, and upon such terms that only the truly indigent would accept it. "Into such a house none will enter voluntarily; work, confinement, and discipline, will deter the indolent and vicious; and nothing but extreme necessity will induce any to accept the comfort which must be obtained by the surrender of their free agency, and the sacrifice of their accustomed habits and gratifications."' (Poor Law 1832 Royal Commission findings).
 Pbob 31 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:
Is the £200 RRP or sale price?
OP The Lemming 31 Dec 2017
In reply to Pbob:

What ever can be written off with insurance?
 Big Ger 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Dax H:


> Some people know a lot of people and have experiences of a much broader pool than others.

I don't disagree. It was the frequency, inevitability even, of our young friend replying with a "friend/relative/person down the shops/man in the barber" who just happened to fit the stereotype being discussed I was commenting on.




> So is this story credible to you?

> A mate of mine uses food banks because its the only way he can afford food for himself and his wife.

> But he drives a rangrover (old one but it drink petrol for fun).

> Goes clay shooting every Sunday (£22 a time plus getting there)

> Has a £40 a month phone contract

> Has a dog the size of a small horse and is looking to get another one.

> There are a lot of skint people who need help out there but there are also a lot of people who are skint because their priorities are wrong.

I would have no doubt that that sort of person would exist/
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 pec 02 Jan 2018
In reply to 8A machine elf:

> In victorian Britain the poor and workers relied on charity to put food on the table and in Britain in 2017 one million 3 day emergency food packages were handed out by foodbank CHARITIES to the poor and workers who were struggling to feed their families. >

So basically what you're saying is that some people in Victorian Britain relied upon charity and so do some people today so essentially nothing has moved on.
Well on that basis you could argue that cavemen ate food and so do we so basically we're living like cavemen.

> Im on a phone so i cant see your link by Forbes ( is that Forbes magazine ?) but i look at your figure about the minumum wage in uk but that doesnt appear to take into account the very high cost of living here though does it and how that swipes a great deal off the wages of those on minumum wage. >

Whether you're on a phone or not you could just read what I wrote. The salient bit is this:

"This number is also Purchasing Power Parity adjusted: so we are not talking about lentils costing two cents a tonne in India and £3 a kg in Tesco . We are adjusting for those price differences across geography and time."

So yes it does take all that onto account.

It is from forbes magazine which is slighlty right leaning
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/forbes/
but when you're not on a phone you can check all the facts in that article elsewhere, its not made up.

The World Bank poverty level has actually been upgraded to $1.90 since it was written but that doesn't make any substantial difference to the thrust of it.
http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/brief/global-poverty-line-faq

You can also find the 25% of Victorians in extreme poverty figure elsewhere like here
http://www.localhistories.org/povhist.html
Scroll down to the "19th century" to find this
"At the end of the 19th century more than 25% of the population was living at or below subsistence level."

It also gives an interesting insight into the nature of Victorian charity
"If you had no income at all you had to enter the workhouse. The workhouses were feared and hated by the poor. They were meant to be as unpleasant as possible to deter poor people from asking the state for help. Married couples were separated and children over 7 were separated from their parents. The inmates were made to do hard work like breaking stones to make roads or breaking bones to make fertilizer."
Sound like a modern food bank? No not really, there's no meaningful comparison at all.



J1234 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
>

> Of course I don't condone theft - we've been targeted on a couple of occasions, and it is frustrating and annoying, and distressing for staff, when these hopeless clowns steal to feed their drug habits.


LOL. You go from the position that people shoplifting are poor and its state failure, to the position that thieves are all druggies.
Post edited at 08:25

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