UKC

Landlord's Electrical Installation Condition Report

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 owlart 07 May 2022

As I understand it, new regulations came into force in 2020 regarding Landlords performing safety checks on the electrical wiring in their properties. However, I'm a bit unclear how I stand regarding this. The timeline has been:

22nd June 2020: Initial inspection carried out. This took at least an hour and the guy tested every socket and took the cover off each light switch. Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) showed 12 items marked "C2: Potentially dangerous. Urgent remedial action required.". No remedial action was taken.

6th August 2021: 2nd inspection carried out (different firm). This took about 20mins. The guy stood at the entrance to my lounge and declared "Everything seems fine in here", despite some sockets being behind the TV and so not visible from the door. No EICR was provided to me.

12th April 2022: Some remedial work carried out. Some items identified on the inital report  as "Urgent remedial action required" have not been repaired (eg. faulty sockets, broken light switch). I haven't received any details of what work was carried out. One RCD was fitted next to the old wire fusebox, to cover all 4 circuits in my flat.

I know that there are landlords on UKC, and others who know the rules regarding landlords. Does the above sound right/acceptable, or is there a problem here? I don't want to 'upset' my landlord and risk having to move house, but equally I don't want to be walked over regarding safety regulations. I've previously had to threaten to involve HSE to get an annual Landlords Gas Safety Check carried out.

 pec 07 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

There's some info here on the reports for rental properties.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

Amoungst other things it says

"If the report requires remedial work or further investigation, landlords must provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days of completing the work."

Also

"If codes C1 or C2 are identified in on the report, then remedial work will be required. The report will state the installation is unsatisfactory for continued use.

If an inspector identifies that further investigative work is required (FI), the landlord must also ensure this is carried out.

The C3 classification code does not indicate remedial work is required, but only that improvement is recommended. Landlords don’t have to make the improvement, but it would improve the safety of the installation if they did."

You can read the whole thing but it basically says C1 and C2 must be repaired and you should have written confirmation it has been done. From what you say this hasn't happened.

If you rent via a lettings agent I'd get on to them first, otherwise the landlord and if that fails the local authority.

 Ian W 07 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

As pec said, your landlord must carry out the repairs within a certain period, however enforcement tends to be weak, so some landlords just ignore it. This contains some advice on the steps you should take.

https://www.housingadviceni.org/what-do-if-your-landlord-refuses-repair

NB - the fact someone has said "seems ok to me" in a subsequent inspection wont wash legally; the landlord must act on the original report. Good luck with it, it sounds as if your ladlord isnt really bothered. And as a residential landlord. I simply dont understand that attitude; getting this sort of thing sorted, quite apart from the moral issue of potentially putting tenants in danger, gets you a good reputation, and that gives you a better choice of tenant, hence better tenants, which is better for business.

 Maggot 07 May 2022
In reply to pec:

Hahaha, periodic codings, what a swamp that is! One man's C1 is another's C3, and vicaversa.

It's the Electricians forums equivalent to UKCs TPS grading 🤣

1
 pec 07 May 2022
In reply to Maggot:

> Hahaha, periodic codings, what a swamp that is! One man's C1 is another's C3, and vicaversa.

> It's the Electricians forums equivalent to UKCs TPS grading 🤣


Yes, I'm sure that's the case but nonetheless, the landlord has a legal duty to provide a certificate with no C1 or C2 faults, or at least evidence that such faults have been repaired.

If the landlord disputes any faults he can take it up with the electricians or get another electrician to do the test.

On that note, I had to get a report for my rental house and allowed the lettings agents use their electricians due to very short notice.

Their report failed two circuits (C2 faults) on the basis of low insulation resistance despite the figures they had measured being more than twice the legal minimum. I took it up with them and they were rather less than helpful. They were asking for £50 an hour for an open ended "investigation" into the source of the (non existant) faults. Basically they assumed I'd have no idea what the report actually meant and wanted to milk me for some cash.

I explained the problem to an electrician I've used before (and trust) and paid him to do his own report which didn't fail the circuits (because they weren't at fault) and was able to provide the required certificate.

1
In reply to pec:

out of interest was the values of the insulation resistance the same from the first electrician and the second electrician?   And are both electricians trying to inspect the circuit for compliance under the same regulation standards and values? (within  BS7678)  from the date of installation or / on the date of inspection

In reply to pec:

> If the landlord disputes any faults he can take it up with the electricians or get another electrician to do the test.

Sounds like that is what the Ops landlord has done, he didn't like the first report so he got another done. From the description I have more faith in the first one who actually tested things than the second who signed it off with a casual glance.

I had my Mot done a few weeks ago, there is a garage near me that passes just about anything and another that does it by the book. I use the by the book guy because its a safety thing but most people I know go to the other guy because they won't have to spend anything on remedial work. 

1
 ExiledScot 08 May 2022
In reply to Dax H:

Some electricians checking will phrase it as though updating to the latest edition of regs is mandatory. 

 We've had some less than honest ones checking our home which is now rented out. I rewired it when we bought it, then had it checked independently to the edition at the time before we moved in. The $hit some come out with now that it's let is disappointing. Same with the gas, it's lpg bottles and I've had testers tell me the hoses need replacing even though I know they are only 2 years old and date stamped. When challenged they'll say they must have got houses mixed up blah blah blah. In the early days of EPC we had a report that was so wrong they mustn't have even visited the property. All this through an agency, sadly there are many dodgy qualified trades people out there. 

Op, if you take a pic of your report with the errors and put it up on here I'm sure someone will help you check the codes. 

1
 apache 08 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

I’ve just had my ECIRC report done in Scotland so the regulations between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. will be different in detail but essential the same. A C1 failure means that the circuit has failed and is unsafe so can’t be used and must be fixed immediately. A C2 failure required fixing but you can continue to use that circuit but it must be fixed with a certain period of time often 28 days. A C3 failure is advice to the landlord that the circuit needs repairs but are not essential.

Circuites which were installed to previous standards do not have to be brought up to date providing they are still ok.

Electricians who turn up and do nothing should be reported to the council and relevant electrical bodies. Landlords who don’t keep their certificates up to date should be reported to the council.

I am a landlord and while getting the certification done is a real PITA, it means that I know my house is safe and legal, and my tenants safe. I have found a sparky and plumber I completely trust to do the jobs properly and won’t rip me off, if a wee bit more expensive that the agency tradespeople; pay back is that when I need them, they appear when they say and do a good job (occasionally give advice when I need it).

As for your landlord- if he’s so slow about getting legally required certification done, then you start to wonder what else might be waiting for you.

Scotland is going through a 360 review of domestic leases with input from tenants and landlords to ensure that both tenants are protected from unscrupulous landlords and landlords are protected from antisocial tenants as there is a significant percentage of rented property in Scotland that is the landlords prime property rather than the hundreds owned by landlord companies south of the border. 
 

The EPC, ECRIC, legionella certificates should be in your property- complain to the agent if they’re not; if not forthcoming ask why not. A call to the citizen’s advice bureau might be in order 

 pec 08 May 2022
In reply to Name Changed 34:

> out of interest was the values of the insulation resistance the same from the first electrician and the second electrician?   And are both electricians trying to inspect the circuit for compliance under the same regulation standards and values? (within  BS7678)  from the date of installation or / on the date of inspection


It was the pre existing circuit in situ when I bought the house, with a modernish (16th or 17th ed) consumer unit, MCBs and RCDs. There is no requirement to update these to 18th ed.

Both inspected the circuits within 5 days of each other during which time the house was empty.

The first recorded values of (from memory) 2.1 and 2.4 Mohms, the legal minimum is 1Mohm. The second electrician recorded much higher values of around 50Mohms.

Whilst the first readings are on the low side they can't be classed as a fail if they are more than twice the legal minimum. When I spoke to the electrician about it he got very shirty and defensive and told me I would need to take it up with NAPIT (or whoever it was he's registered with). The conclusion I came to is that they work for the lettings agent who obviously don't know anything about electrics and the electricians assume landlords don't either. They can say what they like and know you can't easily challenge them so by asking for £50 an hour for an open ended investigation to find the "faults" it's a licence to print money.

I only used them because the agents sprung it upon me a week before the house was due to be let and the rule had only come into force a few days earlier.

The second electrician I used is a very experienced guy, 30+years including time with big power companies. I've used him before and he's very helpful, thorough and fair. He knows I know something about electrics (I did the 16th ed qualification in the early 2000s) so he can't pull the wool over my eyes. I trust his judgement whereas I have no idea who the first electrician was or what his credentials are, he might have years of experience or he might have done a part P course last week for all I know, plus his attitude stank when I spoke to him.

We tend to assume that all qualified electricians know their stuff but if you ever spend any time reading electricians forums you soon learn that's not the case!

Edit, The second electrician asked how much the first had charged for the inspection (about £120), his view was that that was far too cheap for doing a proper job which also leans me towards the view that it's way of getting initial business and they make their money from repairing "faults", a bit like "free" MOT garages who always find lots of faults they need to repair.

Post edited at 10:24
In reply to apache:

This is the grist of this, and the definition and context of OK 

“”Circuites which were installed to previous standards do not have to be brought up to date providing they are still ok.””

OP owlart 08 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

Thanks for the input folks. This is the part of the original report from 2020: https://imgur.com/nO4BXKG

The points covering no RCD have been covered, I guess, by fitting an overall RCD (leaving wire fuses for individual circuits), and the boiler wiring has been fixed but as far as I'm aware the other points haven't been addressed (eg. things are still broken/faulty).

In reply to pec:

 Definitive rulings can be hard to establish  digging deeply can sometimes muddy the waters before clarity is found 

 Your first test is a pass 2+ Meg  under the rules of the installation at the time,  so was it lack of clarity in communication or lack of knowledge on the electricians count that lead him to failed the circuit ? We’ll never know 

 I suspect that a lot of modern day men a.k.a. part P’s Don’t have a good understanding of the physics see a lower reading from what is required under the now the 19th (?) and then they default to fail.

 Not unlike yourself my last involvement was pre-2000 and involved a 2391C&G  I do see bad reports  about tradespeople and hope that the electrical trade has not gone the way the plumbers and the gas fitters - not all. 

The good thing is you didn’t get ripped off we should also distinguish between inspection and testing, they as you know are different, we should be happy to pay for a good service also . I’m not suggesting that you’re not  probably the opposite more than happy to pay for it when it comes !

Post edited at 13:05
In reply to pec:

Going from 2 to 50 Mohms I would want to see calibration certs for both meters. 

 pec 08 May 2022
In reply to Dax H:

Since both are above the legal minimum then it's academic which are correct.

I don't suppose either electrician would be delighted for me to ask them to check the calibration of their meters and I'd expect them to expect me to pay for it if I did.

I just needed the certificate by the end of the week and as I say, both readings are a pass.

In reply to pec:

If the readings are that far out it's quite possible that both are wrong and your not actually up to code.

You shouldn't have to pay for calibration, any business that does testing, especially on safety critical equipment should have up to date testing records. If the landlord is employing people to carry out checks they need to be checking the credentials of the electricians and making sure they have a safe system of work, that would include calibration records.

If the worse happens and someone is electrocuted there will be an investigation, the first question will be "do you have statutory check records" the second question will be "who carried out the checks"  the third question could well be are they qualified and why did you engage them"

If the answer is you hired them because they submitted me their qualifications, test certs and safe system of work your golden, if you say its Bob from down the pub, great guy who only charges me £30 per test you might be in the shit. 

 pec 08 May 2022
In reply to Dax H:

Essentially, whilst I don't want to kill my tenants, if I've I've got a certificate from a qualified, registered electrician then it's their responsibility if something happens. I've done all I can reasonably be expected to do.

If the agents electrician isn't qualified or registered it's their responsibilty or the electrician's and I'm as certain as I can be that mine is kosher and if he's not, it's his responsibilty for purporting to be so.

But anyway, if two electricians have measured the circuit and both of them have found it to be more than twice the minimum then the chances both are wrong in the wrong direction are tiny. Bear in mind that until not very long ago the minimum was only 0.5Mohm so millions of houses could be below the new minimum. My problem only arose because the first one wanted to fail a circuit that wasn't a fail even by his own measurements.

 rob wmc 08 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

I'm an electrician and I hold the 2391 inspection and test. I don't know how electricians do an eicr in an hour, the testing and paperwork takes me a day.

A C1 means the circuit is immediately dangerous and cannot be left powered up.

A C2 means the circuit could be dangerous if a fault developed on it.

A C3 means the circuit doesn't comply with current standards. (No obligation to update the installation)

While the minimum insulation resistance is 1 Megaohm as you say, I would be worried at anything under 20 Megs. Bear in mind it probably read over 200 when the installation was new, so this shows a serious degradation. The reason the minimum is at 1 is to cover very large circuits. Even though it's technically passed any good electrician would write a comment suggesting further investigation is required. If I found a circuit of 2-3 Megs in my house there is no way I would leave it.

 Maggot 09 May 2022
In reply to rob wmc:

I used to work for an Inspection/testing company. I could write reams and reams about how bad it is and the ridiculously insane work load we were given.

We came to a mutually happy sacked/resigned situation in the end.

Never again!!!

OP owlart 09 May 2022
In reply to rob wmc:

> I'm an electrician and I hold the 2391 inspection and test. I don't know how electricians do an eicr in an hour, the testing and paperwork takes me a day.

On a one-bedroom flat?

 rob wmc 09 May 2022
In reply to owlart:

No, a typical 3 bed semi.

 Andy Hardy 09 May 2022
In reply to pec:

When I did validation testing for pharmaceutical projects I had to append copies of the calibration certificates to the test results and note the serial numbers of instruments used to do the tests. 

Surely your electrician should do the same for your report / cert?


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...