UKC

/ Lawson's Brexit hypocrisy

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Bob Kemp - on 31 May 2018

I know there's another Brexit discussion wending its merry way elsewhere, but I thought Nigel's application for French residency deserved a little special attention:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/31/brexiter-nigel-lawson-applies-french-residency-vote-leave

 

Ex Poster 666 - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Shock horror, politician accused of hypocrisy!

The French are welcome to him.

what the hex on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

Bloody francophobe...

Ex Poster 666 - on 31 May 2018
In reply to what the hex:

My major problem with Nigel is Nigella, I keep getting images of him whenever I see her.
It's really disturbing!

toad - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Dont forget farage's german excursion either

Brexit is only for the little people

FactorXXX - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> My major problem with Nigel is Nigella, I keep getting images of him whenever I see her.
> It's really disturbing!

Must stop whatever you're doing in their tracks...

 

what the hex on 31 May 2018
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Must stop whatever you're doing in their tracks...

Probable when he's knocking out a souffle (or whatever the current euphemism might be)

what the hex on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

Apologies for being facetious Lusk, I'm just sick of Brexiters taking glee in the deterioration of the UK.

2
Ex Poster 666 - on 31 May 2018
In reply to what the hex:

> Apologies for being facetious Lusk,

I wouldn't worry about it, I don't give a toss about what anyone on here thinks about me.  Thanks anyway

> I'm just sick of Brexiters taking glee in the deterioration of the UK.

I think the complete opposite, it seems to me the Remainers wallowing in self indulgent misery. I'm a 'shit happens' geezer.  We are where we are.  Move on with positive thinking.

 

Post edited at 19:37
18
what the hex on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> I think the complete opposite, it seems to me the Remainers wallowing in self indulgent misery. 

Bollocks. We're angling for a second referendum

> Move on with positive thinking.

Good luck with that

3
pasbury on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

Have you been smoking the old jazz woodbines again?

pasbury on 31 May 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

‘Not particularly worried’ says an Englishman living in a mansion in Gascony.

What a f*cking cu nt.

Andy Hardy on 31 May 2018
In reply to pasbury:

>.

> What a f*cking cu nt.

Not as attractive, and without the depth and warmth.

pasbury on 31 May 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

True - I do struggle to find a suitable epithet. And that probably wasn’t.

Andy Hardy on 31 May 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> True - I do struggle to find a suitable epithet. And that probably wasn’t.

Spunkflute? Cockwomble? Grade A, full weight tosser? Helmet? You need a subscription to Roger's Profanisaurus

pasbury on 31 May 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Spunkbubble?

tom_in_edinburgh - on 31 May 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> True - I do struggle to find a suitable epithet. And that probably wasn’t.

Yeah, but to be fair you were only a couple of inches too far north in your choice of orifice.

birdie num num - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

The bastard! Leaving us all in the shit after we voted to leave the EU

john yates - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Guardian having a laugh. But like your headline. Where is the tidal wave of anger? Some bloke in twitter making a nonsensical claim about a fellow Brit who says Brexit isn’t a problem. All this synthetic rage. Get over yourselves. 

14
john yates - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

Nice one Lusk. England the whine captital of Europe. 

9
john yates - on 31 May 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Dick

11
john yates - on 31 May 2018
In reply to what the hex:

I doubt you’ll need a landing net. 

8
john yates - on 31 May 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Class struggle? 

9
pasbury on 31 May 2018
In reply to john yates:

Thank-you for your contribution.

Tyler - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> I think the complete opposite, it seems to me the Remainers wallowing in self indulgent misery. I'm a 'shit happens' geezer.  We are where we are.  Move on with positive thinking.

Doesn't it make sense to just stop it rather than rely on "positive thinking" whatever the f*ck that is. 

The New NickB - on 31 May 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Class struggle? 

Lawson, I don’t know if he has struggled, he certainly hasn’t got any class!

Pan Ron - on 31 May 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> I'm a 'shit happens' geezer.  We are where we are.  Move on with positive thinking.

Really? You were telling me on another thread you were an active socialist not content with the status quo and prevailing direction. ;-)

yorkshire_lad2 on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Several years ago, Nigel Lawson was found advertising M&G financial products (M&G was/is then part of the Pru) when he was a non-exec director of Barclays. 

https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/review-marketing-advertising-news-week-rsquos-press/29062

 

jkarran - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'd love to think Lawson simply has a fault, that he's deluded especially around his 'work' on climate change rather than corrupt, knowingly evil for personal gain. Not because I have anything invested in liking Lawson but because I hate the idea people as rotten as that'd make him make it so far in our political system. On a more childish note he looks like a haunted foreskin with eyes, the French are welcome to him.

jk

Postmanpat on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

  What is the problem? A person thinks that the UK should leave the EU but lives in France and therefore follows the necessary procedures to continue to do so. Apart from the fact that it undermines the usual remainer cliches about "Little Englanders" there's nothing to see here.

25
Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

>   What is the problem? A person thinks that the UK should leave the EU but lives in France and therefore follows the necessary procedures to continue to do so.

That’s very disingenuous of you. Lawson is not just an ordinary person - he’s a peer of great wealth and privilege who was also chair of the Vote Leave campaign.

>Apart from the fact that it undermines the usual remainer cliches about "Little Englanders" there's nothing to see here.

Not a very useful comment- I doubt if anyone familiar with your posts and normal position would expect you see to anything.  

 

4
Tringa on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

People are free to decide where they want to live.

However, I find it more than a bit annoying that someone who was a major part of the campaign that told us how great it would be for the UK to leave the EU, feels it is going to be so good that he wants to make sure he can go and live somewhere else.

Dave 

Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Tringa:

> People are free to decide where they want to live.

Agreed, a worthy principle, but of course they will be less free after Brexit than before, whilst the Lawsons of this world will proceed serenely on, assisted by their wealth, status and privilege.

> However, I find it more than a bit annoying that someone who was a major part of the campaign that told us how great it would be for the UK to leave the EU, feels it is going to be so good that he wants to make sure he can go and live somewhere else.

Of course he was already living in France, but he's making sure he's unaffected by post-Brexit residency hassles.

> Dave 

 

Tyler - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

>   What is the problem? A person thinks that the UK should leave the EU but lives in France and therefore follows the necessary procedures to continue to do so. Apart from the fact that it undermines the usual remainer cliches about "Little Englanders" there's nothing to see here.

Except the fact that he has campaigned to deny us rights and privileges that he is still able to enjoy thanks to his wealth. It re-enforces the view that the brexiters most vocally in favour of it are deaf to the concerns of the majority because they're rich enough to be insulated from the downsides, i.e if your income is derived from investments all over the world, if you can afford to live in France without seeking work, if your family's well being does not depend on there being jobs stemming from investment in UK business, if you are not reliant on the NHS's army of EU workers should you fall ill, then you have less invested in the success or failure of Brexit despite being one of its biggest influencers. In short, for cvnts like him, Mogg and Johnson it's a game without consequences .

1
tom_in_edinburgh - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

>   What is the problem? A person thinks that the UK should leave the EU but lives in France and therefore follows the necessary procedures to continue to do so. Apart from the fact that it undermines the usual remainer cliches about "Little Englanders" there's nothing to see here.

If this Brexit thing happens I really hope the French give him the full 'hostile environment' treatment.  Lose his documents, tell his bank to freeze his accounts, block his access to health care, make him report every few weeks for a couple of years and then on one visit for no particular reason detain him for six months.   The f*cker deserves twice that for putting the 3 million EU citizens in the UK in the hands of the Home Office.

2
GrahamD - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Compared with Lawson's stance on climate change, this is pretty small beer.  The bloke is grade A arse hole.

Postmanpat on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> That’s very disingenuous of you. Lawson is not just an ordinary person - he’s a peer of great wealth and privilege who was also chair of the Vote Leave campaign.

> >

  I’ve no idea what you think his status and wealth has to do with it. But whether he led the campaign or was a humble voter makes no difference.

 

Incidentally I’ve always thought him an arrogant dick. At his age its unwise to be making public pronouncements anyway

Post edited at 16:12
14
Rob Exile Ward on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

Good. Can we just squeeze the word 'hypocritical' out of you as well?

Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

No idea? You’re being disingenuous again. 

Postmanpat on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> No idea? You’re being disingenuous again. 

 

How? He’s always been open about his residence and his views. He is simply regularising it as now required and as many other ex pat brexit voters will do.

why is his wealth and title relevant?

 

 

7
Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

Lawson has made a point in interviews of dismissing the problems that will ensue from Brexit as being trivial in comparison to the benefits in terms of democracy. At a personal level, if you have money and influence that is probably true. It won’t be for many of the less affluent European residents who want to stay. 

Andy Hardy on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

As an ex chair of a brexit campaign group and still prominent advocate for brexit, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement. "Brexit will make Britain so good I'd like to move to the EU"

1
Doug on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

> ... He is simply regularising it as now required

I live in France, I've heard nothing about applying for a carte de séjour - what does he know that the rest of us don't?

 

Bogwalloper - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Doug:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180601/why-brits-in-france-should-apply-for-a-carte-de-sejour-right-now

As for Postman Pat - stop being stupid. Do you know how much all this costs? The travelling backwards and forwards to the prefecture etc etc
Lawson will just breeze through it or get his PA to do all the donkeywork.
It really isn't that easy for lower income people like us. All because of wankers like Lawson!

Having said that there is a Facebook campaign from a British ex pat in France site who are encouraging people to write to Lawson's prefecture to explain what a c**t he actually is ;-)

W

1
Doug on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

No need to be insulting.

I've never heard of thelocal.fr & there's been nothing in the French media (or the UK media I read) & none of my British friends have mentioned it.

Postmanpat on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Doug:

> I live in France, I've heard nothing about applying for a carte de séjour - what does he know that the rest of us don't?

Probably what's on here http://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html

Frankly it sounds like  a chore (which I understand is hardly unusual when dealing with bureacracy in France) but no more than that for the vast majority of British ex pats in France. It really has bugger all to do with wealth or titles.

And he's not "moving to France". He already lives there, presumably because he likes it.

 

Post edited at 18:21
5
Bogwalloper - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Doug:

Did I insult you? Sorry.

W

cander - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Doug:

To be fair - the status of Brits in France probably hasn’t bubbled to the surface for the French but I’d be surprised if in the fullness of time you didn’t have to get a cart de séjour or take French (or other EU country) citizenship if you intend to continue to live there.

john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to jkarran:

If this was said of a black or minority person it would be racism. As it is, these and similar comments are just crude, unfunny abuse.  Is this the gentle new face of Corbyn’s Labour Party. If so, they’ll never win. No matter how hopeless the Tories are under TM. Hard to believe that such a cack handed administration is still neck and neck with Lsbour. It worries some seniors in the party that the last election was their high water mark. 

 

15
Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

What’s this got to do with Corbyn?

john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Sorry I should have said

You fu*king c*nt

thats much more apposite

8
john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

Wow I bet that will be persuasive. Isn’t UKC the place that all the philistine wankers go to jerk off? Or do they do Facebook too? 

11
john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

You tell me. Just thought as you’d abused Lawson then I’d abuse the hypocritical tosspot labour send to the Despatch Box most weeks. I can’t bring myself to call him a leader. 

9
john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

You tell me. Just thought as you’d abused Lawson then I’d abuse the hypocritical tosspot labour send to the Despatch Box most weeks. I can’t bring myself to call him a leader. 

4
john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

At last someone who tries to stick to the facts. 

7
john yates - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

So Lawson made you poor? How so? 

7
Andy Hardy on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Isn’t UKC the place that all the philistine wankers go to jerk off? Or do they do Facebook too? 

Would you like a tissue?

jkarran - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> If this was said of a black or minority person it would be racism. As it is, these and similar comments are just crude, unfunny abuse.

If he was black he'd look like a black haunted foreskin with eyes and you'd still look like a cu*t for trying g to cast me as a racist without cause, there's nothing racial at all in my comment or any other you'll find.

Is this the gentle new face of Corbyn’s Labour Party. If so, they’ll never win. No matter how hopeless the Tories are under TM.

No idea, more of a green disappointed in Corbyn as a voter than a Labour member. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else. Maybe you're just trying too hard to score cheap points.

Hardto believe that such a cack handed administration is still neck and neck with Lsbour. It worries some seniors in the party that the last election was their high water mark. 

Which party? They're both shit.

Jk

Post edited at 22:43
jkarran - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

Wow, just read the rest of the thread. Cup of tea, pint of water and bed for you sunshine.

Jk

Bob Kemp - on 01 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> You tell me.

I couldn’t possibly imagine  why. 

 

john yates - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to jkarran:

A pint of bile for you? 

10
Big Ger - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

"Man living in France supports Brexit, but continues to live in France."

I'm failing to see the hypocrisy myself.

21
john arran - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

Then you're not looking very hard.

"Man, having personally benefited from EU membership and thus easily take up residence in France, denies others a similar opportunity."

Bob Kemp - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

> "Man living in France supports Brexit, but continues to live in France."

> I'm failing to see the hypocrisy myself.

As i said earlier to the Postman, that is disingenuous. 

MG - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Oddly, those opposing brexit are also now expected to leave the country. There'll be no one left. 

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1002527933033078785?s=19

john yates - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

He is not in a position to deny anyone anything. He was one voter among 17 m that voted leave. His point is that leaving EU will not much affect U.K. residents in EU. Same view I get from French people living in London. They are a lot less agitated than the fevered fanatics on UKC. 

11
john yates - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to MG:

Adonis is such a self important nob.

10
Big Ger - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

He's denied nobody anything.

10
john yates - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Nope. You are failing to make the case that Lawson’s actions are hypocritical. There was nothing in the Leave vote that says Brits should be banned from living abroad. Just a nasty attack on man whose politics you disagree with. 

12
john yates - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to jkarran:

Patronising prick. 

19
john arran - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> He is not in a position to deny anyone anything. He was one voter among 17 m that voted leave.

Now that's disingenuous. He was Chairman of Vote Leave; a principal figure in persuading people to end free movement of personnel across the EU and the right to take up residence in another EU country. The fact is that he'd benefited personally from that freedom and then he was hugely influential in seeking to deny the same to others. That should easily be seen to anybody with a dictionary as hypocrisy. Note that this has nothing to do with existing overseas residents, nor with whether the French or any other EU country will choose to be accommodating in allowing UK citizens to relocate there in future. This is a legal right that he's personally benefited from that he's actively sought to deny others by removal of that automatic free movement possibility.

 

1
MG - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Adonis is such a self important nob.

I don't agree with all he says but given he has managed to get to the Lords after being raised in a foster home, I'll forgive him some degree of self-importance.

jkarran - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Patronising prick. 

How's the hangover, those charm school reunions must get pretty wild.

Jk

Bob Kemp - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Nope. You are failing to make the case that Lawson’s actions are hypocritical.

John Arran’s done a decent job of making the case above.

>There was nothing in the Leave vote that says Brits should be banned from living abroad.

Who said there was?

>Just a nasty attack on man whose politics you disagree with. 

Given the level of vitriol you’ve been resorting to in this thread I’m surprised referring to Lawson as a hypocrite rates as ‘nasty’ in your view. Quite mild really, and often a term used in political discussions. 

 

Post edited at 15:31
Timmd on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

> "Man living in France supports Brexit, but continues to live in France."

> I'm failing to see the hypocrisy myself.

Can you explain why?

Big Ger - on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Now that's disingenuous. He was Chairman of Vote Leave; a principal figure in persuading people to end free movement of personnel across the EU and the right to take up residence in another EU country.

It was about a bit more than just that. As I have pointed out to you many times before.

> The fact is that he'd benefited personally from that freedom and then he was hugely influential in seeking to deny the same to others. That should easily be seen to anybody with a dictionary as hypocrisy.

Just because you obsess about one aspect of Brexit, it doesn't mean everybody does.

> Note that this has nothing to do with existing overseas residents, nor with whether the French or any other EU country will choose to be accommodating in allowing UK citizens to relocate there in future. This is a legal right that he's personally benefited from that he's actively sought to deny others by removal of that automatic free movement possibility.

LOL! This is one aspect of Brexit which I'm sure Lord Lawson took into account when making s decision to become a figurehead. I admire the man in his plan to remain In residence in France, to do otherwise would be hypocritical.

If the Frence decide to kick out Brits following Brexit, that's their choice and their right. You wouldn't want to deny them that.

18
pasbury on 02 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

And this year’s award for most obtuse post goes to....

1
RomTheBear on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

>   What is the problem? A person thinks that the UK should leave the EU but lives in France and therefore follows the necessary procedures to continue to do so. Apart from the fact that it undermines the usual remainer cliches about "Little Englanders" there's nothing to see here.

Really ? You don't see the problem ? He's personally benefited from the benefits of EU citizenship - which he now seeks to retain - but nevertheless supported a campaign and a vote that will result in most Britons losing the same rights he himself enjoyed and will continue to enjoy.

Post edited at 09:34
2
Postmanpat on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

  Ive made my points to other people. You have added absolutely fxck all to the discussion so Why did you bother?

  On second thoughts, don’t answer that.

17
timjones - on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

I'm not convinced that this qualifies as hypocrisy.

 

He appears to be applying for the right to live in France rather than French nationality?

john arran - on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I'm not convinced that this qualifies as hypocrisy.

> He appears to be applying for the right to live in France rather than French nationality?

... which will no longer be available post-Brexit as a right for UK citizens, as it has been so far, and as he's taken advantage of personally. Isn't that absurdly obvious? I'd really like to hear an argument for why it doesn't qualify as hypocrisy, since none have been proffered so far.

3
RomTheBear on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to Postmanpat:

>   Ive made my points to other people. You have added absolutely fxck all to the discussion so Why did you bother?

Tell us PP, what did you add ? Other than the usual sneer ?

 

 

Post edited at 21:40
2
Rob Exile Ward on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

What is wrong with you people? He has actively, energetically and succesfully campaigned to withdraw the right my children have had since they were born - their birthright,if you wish - to live and work anywhere in Europe they chose. And now the f*cker is making efforts to ensure that he can spend the rest of his days - may they be few and miserable - somewhere that he has deprived my kids of the right they previously had to live.

2
BnB - on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> ... which will no longer be available post-Brexit as a right for UK citizens, as it has been so far, and as he's taken advantage of personally. Isn't that absurdly obvious? I'd really like to hear an argument for why it doesn't qualify as hypocrisy, since none have been proffered so far.

He’s subjecting himself to the same bureaucratic treadmill that any other Brit will in future have to endure. I won’t, but he might even argue that his likely success in this endeavour underlines how the loss of free movement is not cut and dried. 

Hypocritical? Probably not in the true sense of the word. Perverse, yes.

Cowardly, almost certainly.

8
pasbury on 03 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

The loss of free movement of millionaire mansion owners in Gascony is probably minimal whatever happens.

RomTheBear on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> He’s subjecting himself to the same bureaucratic treadmill that any other Brit will in future have to endure.

And they said Brexit would bring less red tape (facepalm)

> I won’t, but he might even argue that his likely success in this endeavour underlines how the loss of free movement is not cut and dried. 

Indeed, because arguing so would be highly misleading. Yes, it is likely that those who were already resident will be able to stay, even more so when you can just pay a professional to do everything for you (Although no doubt many less fortunate will be shafted over minute details, but hey who cares about them ?).

For everybody else (unless you are rich, of course) they can pretty much kiss their freedom of movement goodbye.

> Hypocritical? Probably not in the true sense of the word. Perverse, yes.

Doing everything he can to keep a privilege he enjoyed whilst denying it to others. Yes, perverse, but predictable. 

Maybe they should give him the special "home office" treatment, look for any minor discrepancy on his tax record, freeze his bank accounts, detain him for half a year without trial, kick him out of the country under an anti terror law, and put him on a blacklist so that he can't ever travel anywhere else.

 

 

 

 

2
john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> He’s subjecting himself to the same bureaucratic treadmill that any other Brit will in future have to endure.

The difference, of course, being that those doing so in future will not be in the same position as he is now. Do you not think a record of having lived in France for years without any red tape at all would ease the process of gaining a carte de séjour?

It's still hypocrisy, even if it amounts to shooting himself in only one foot while requiring others to shoot themselves in both. Just makes me wonder what personal benefit he sees in pushing Brexit, for himself and his amassed wealth, that justifies him taking that bullet.

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Maybe it doesn't qualify as hypocrisy because anyone else in the same situation can make the same application and hopefully in the future, once we have got through this, we will still be able to do so.

 

To be clear, I voted remain and I'm deeply disappointed that the vote went the way that it did, but I'm sick to death of the childish tit for tat bickering and finger pointing by both sides.

Post edited at 09:29
3
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

"you people"!!!!!  Have you considered the possibility that you might be part of an ongoing problem that threatens to damage a great many people?

Let's be clear here, I voted remain, I'm deeply disppointed by the result and my business/livelihood is likely to be seriously damaged by Brexit. I'm also fed up with the childish, tit for tat bollocks quoted by both sides.

Being a British citzen with residency in another country was possible before we joined the EU, it was possible whilst we were a member and if we focus on getting a good deal it should continue to be possible after we leave the EU.

Take your head out of your arse and explain how it is hypocritical to apply for something that we have no reason to believe that he wishes to prevent others applying for now or in the future?

I believe that those who campaigned for Brexit were "wrong" for many reasons but there is no way that peoples rights to do anything in future should be restricted based purely on their opinion or vote on a single issue.

Post edited at 09:48
8
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to jkarran:

"If he was black he'd look like a black haunted foreskin with eyes and you'd still look like a cu*t for trying g to cast me as a racist without cause, there's nothing racial at all in my comment or any other you'll find."

 

All fair enough, but funny how any criticism of Diane Abbotts math skills or general ability to function on here often gets insinuated as racist, see also the press with Raheem Stirling.

6
Rob Exile Ward on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

I'll tell you why it's hypocritical. If he'd campaigned saying 'the reciprocal right to live in France without any bureaucracy is a right not worth having, who'd want to live there anyway' that would have been consistent and coherent.

If he'd added 'Actually I don't mean the bit about it not being much cop, France is a great place to live and I live there all the time, even though I am going to make it more difficult for the rest of you' , then questions might have been asked.

2
The New NickB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

It’s not criticism of Diane Abbott’s maths skills that is racist, it’s the thousands of racist tweets, emails and letters.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

WTH did he say that it wasn't worth living in France?

And how is he making it "more difficult for the rest of you"?

Petty bickering and false cries of hypocrisy do nothing to help anyone.

1
john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

Is it really so hard to see the difference between a legal right of abode, from which he's been benefiting, and a right to submit an application (which may be declined), which will be the only option available to others post-Brexit?

I'm getting a little baffled as to how many people seem to be struggling with this.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Are you honestly shortsighted enough to fail to understand that it is possible to live under one set of rules whilst campaigning for a different way of doing things.

That's not hypocrisy, it's just a practical necessity.

Would people who voted leave be banned from holidays in Europe in your neat and tidy utopia that is free of everyday practical contradictions?

 

7
The New NickB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

Do you honestly think that Brexit will make it easier for Britons to live in France, for current residents like Lawson it’s a little extra paperwork, in 5 or 10 years, we just don’t know, except that it will be more difficult than it is now.

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

But he's campaigning for a different (and poorer) set of rules for other people, not for himself! His residency is all but guaranteed because it has been a legal right of EU citizenship to date. The hypocrisy is in taking that benefit while seeking to deny others it.

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Do you honestly think that Brexit will make it easier for Britons to live in France, for current residents like Lawson it’s a little extra paperwork, in 5 or 10 years, we just don’t know, except that it will be more difficult than it is now.

That's a practical debate and a very different thing from slinging claims of hypocrisy around to foster division within society and further your own agenda.

At the moment we need to be working together and focussing on practical matters.

As things stand at the moment I could lose the market for the output from my business next March and all I see is people arguing and name calling like spoiled children.

It's time that we all grew up and started working for them common good.

 

8
john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

We are working for the common good. And that first requires recognising public support for a People's Vote and then implementing it.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Are you seriously suggesting that he should deny that right to every other British citizen that is living in the EU and every EU citizen that is living in Britain?
 

We're at a stage where we all have to deal with the practical realities of where we are.

1
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

A peoples vote on what exactly?

We need to be very careful not to pitch ourselves into a never ending future of uncertainty.

2
john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Are you seriously suggesting that he should deny that right to every other British citizen that is living in the EU and every EU citizen that is living in Britain?

 

You're wilfully confounding existing residence in other EU countries with the freedom for others to do so in future, and it's dishonest.

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Oh well done, now it's time to accuse people who donlt share your views of dishonesty!

I wish the world was as simple as you apparently believe it is.

6
stevieb - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Is it really so hard to see the difference between a legal right of abode, from which he's been benefiting, and a right to submit an application (which may be declined), which will be the only option available to others post-Brexit?

> I'm getting a little baffled as to how many people seem to be struggling with this.

If Brexit was a single issue around freedom of movement / immigration then I think it would be hypocritical beyond question.

But I have always assumed that this is a bigger issue for the common man and not the reason for Nigel.

Nigel Lawson seems to be a member (or representative) of the elite who want greater globalisation, and very low regulation for capital. So he opposes any governmental restrictions on movement of capital to low tax, low regulation or low cost economies.  This feeds into opposition to the EU and to government action on climate change.

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> A peoples vote on what exactly?

On the final terms of Brexit, of course. Just to make sure that all those who voted Leave are getting what they voted for. My impression is that virtually nobody who voted Leave thought the deal would end up being nearly as bad as it looks like it will turn out to be. It isn't too late for the people to determine whether the Brexit delivered is close enough to what they voted for so as to be still worth going ahead with. Would you seek to deny them that, or do you pretend that all voters knew precisely what the terms of Brexit would end up looking like when they voted in 2016? There's only one good way to find out, and doing so is about the only sure way of avoiding that "never ending future of uncertainty".

The New NickB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

You claimed that nobody has demonstrated that it will be harder to get French residency in the future. I simply demonstrated that it will be.

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

Christ, I hate this forum sometimes. Take umbrage if you insist, but I'm sure you understand perfectly well that my comment had nothing to do with the fact that we have different opinions, and everything to do with the fact that you were conveniently failing to acknowledge different situations in making your case.

summo on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Perhaps Lawson just wants a ring side seat in the actual eurozone to watch the Italians crash the euro? 

As mentioned above, being anti EU does not mean you dislike Europe or fellow Europeans, just organisation and all it entails. 

Post edited at 11:06
2
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

FFS John, in at least one post above I have mentioned the differences between the pre-EU era, the EU era and the forthcoming post Brexit era.

 

If that doesn't acknowledge different situations WTH does?

Whenever rules change the will be "winners and losers", that does not mean that the rules can never be changed.

 

5
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> There's only one good way to find out, and doing so is about the only sure way of avoiding that "never ending future of uncertainty".

 

Do you honestly believe that a vote on the final deal would settle it once and for all?

 

What do you think would happen if we voted against that final deal?

 

1
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> There's only one good way to find out, and doing so is about the only sure way of avoiding that "never ending future of uncertainty".

 

Do you honestly believe that a vote on the final deal would settle it once and for all?

 

What do you think would happen if we voted against that final deal?

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> There's only one good way to find out, and doing so is about the only sure way of avoiding that "never ending future of uncertainty".

 

Do you honestly believe that a vote on the final deal would settle it once and for all?

 

What do you think would happen if we voted against that final deal?

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

One or both of us must be losing our marbles. I don't think that I claimed anything of the sort.

Tyler - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> At the moment we need to be working together and focussing on practical matters

What do you suggest? I think what practically needs to be done is for Brexit to be stopped. I'd say pointing out that the people who campaigned hardest for Brexit are against the net results of Brexit for themselves this might help. 

Rob Exile Ward on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

'As things stand at the moment I could lose the market for the output from my business next March and all I see is people arguing and name calling like spoiled children.'

Yes, you probably can - you're a farmer aren't you? So once it's gone, it's gone.

And you are just one of 1,000s of businesses that will be damaged or destroyed by the onrushing train crash. Brexit was always going to be bad, but the incompetence and wilful ignorance of those charged with implementing it has been beyond belief; it's obvious that the EU has given up any hope of an orderly and amicable exit. Better one country in chaos while the other 26 get on with their lives.

So why not start campaigning to protect your business now? If we CAN arrange trade deals - even on the Norway/Swiss models, however much poorer they may be than what we currently enjoy - so we can continue to function, so supply chains remain unimpeded, so there is no hard border in N Ireland - I'll forego the rest for the time being. And if we do that, well my prediction is that the EU would and will continue to evolve into something that 10 or 20 years down the line it will seem completely perverse not to be part of.

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Tyler:

Personally I could argue that I'd like Brexit to be stopped but practically I'd be concerned about the long term repercussions of doing so.

As for being against the net results, I'd say that it is quite possible to believe that leaving the EU is the right thing to do AND to also  wish to live in France.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

WTH leads you to the assumption that I'm not campaigning for trade deals.

 

I've stood up and highlighted the importance of trade in countless farmers meetings and mentioned it to every politician I've met since the referendum was announced.

 

Last week I went to see Michael Gove speak at Hay and made a point of meeting him afterwards to highlight the fact that the clock was ticking and how important it was for all sheep farmers.

 

Are you doing anything active beyond posting in online forums?

1
timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Tyler:

Deleting posts accusing people of talking BS whilst they are typing a reply is below the belt ;)

1
The New NickB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

At 10:30 this morning you asked how Lawson was making it more difficult for the rest of us to live in France. As a key figure in the campaign, he is a significant part of the change I described before.

Tyler - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Deleting posts accusing people of talking BS whilst they are typing a reply is below the belt ;)

Typing a reply to another post which invalidates your original reply whilst someone was replying to the original post with an accusation of BS is simlary not cricket! If you want I can just call your views BS again and we can pick up where we left off? ;)

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Do you understand the difference between a question and a claim?

You're claiming that it will be harder,  I'd suggest that only time will tell and that an immature approach to negotiation from both sides will probably make it harder.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Tyler:

I was replying to someone else on a different matter.

There is nothing worng with making yourself look a bit of a dick but you should at least have the balls to own it ;)

My original reply is still valid, if you can't understand why feel free to ask but please don't delete the question whilst I'm replying ;)

4
Tyler - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to stevieb:

> But I have always assumed that this is a bigger issue for the common man and not the reason for Nigel.

> Nigel Lawson seems to be a member (or representative) of the elite who want greater globalisation, and very low regulation for capital. So he opposes any governmental restrictions on movement of capital to low tax, low regulation or low cost economies.  This feeds into opposition to the EU and to government action on climate change.

This is a good and fair point but doesn't make him any less of hypocrite as when the Leave campaign was campaigning against the elites in Europe they made no mention that this was being done so multimillionaires could pay less tax. 

Tyler - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I was replying to someone else on a different matter.

> There is nothing worng with making yourself look a bit of a dick but you should at least have the balls to own it ;)

> My original reply is still valid, if you can't understand why feel free to ask but please don't delete the question whilst I'm replying ;)

Oh FFS, you posted a completely equivocal BS answer to my original question, so I called you on it. When I posted that reply I saw that in answer to someone else you had, in part, answered my original question so I thought 'fair enough, he's said what he is doing' so rather than get into a pointless to and fro I deleted my reply. You made a comment, in what I thought was a reasonably light hearted manner, about the deletion; I responded in, what I thought was a reasonably light hearted manner, and you called me dick. Now I've got to clog up this thread with more shite of no interest to anyone else simply to point out that I wasn't hiding anything, there was nothing to own etc. So in the interests of full disclosure my, now deleted reply, went something like this:

"You say:

> At the moment we need to be working together and focussing on practical matters.

> It's time that we all grew up and started working for them common good

What does that mean, it just sounds like Brexiter BS and blame shifting."

There you go, happy to 'own' that, well done on derailing the thread with your petty point scoring and personal insults.

Bob Kemp - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I was replying to someone else on a different matter.

> There is nothing worng with making yourself look a bit of a dick but you should at least have the balls to own it ;)

> My original reply is still valid, if you can't understand why feel free to ask but please don't delete the question whilst I'm replying ;)

Sorry, what was the original post? Oh yes... something about Lawson, hypocrisy...

The New NickB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Do you understand the difference between a question and a claim?

Yes, what is your point?

> You're claiming that it will be harder,  I'd suggest that only time will tell and that an immature approach to negotiation from both sides will probably make it harder.

No it will be harder, the unknown is how much harder. I don’t see anything immature about exposing hypocrisy. I do worry that the team we have doing the negociation on our behalf lack the expertise to competently do the job.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

"it’s the thousands of racist tweets, emails and letters."

i'm not talking about those though, I'm talking about people on this forum trying to insinuate that I (amongst others) were maybe, actually racist because we were criticising and taking the p1ss out of Diane Abbotts general incompetence. I have seen it happen more than once on here.

 

Thought it was interesting to see JKarran get extremely wound up by the accusation (on the basis he started throwing "c*nt" around and then proceeded on a bunch of wind up posts in reply to his antagoniser) 

Anyway, it's a digression...back to Norman Lamont, or Nigel Lawson...or whoever else we are p1ssed off with 

Post edited at 13:12
1
Bob Kemp - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> "it’s the thousands of racist tweets, emails and letters."

> i'm not talking about those though, I'm talking about people on this forum trying to insinuate that I (amongst others) were maybe, actually racist because we were criticising and taking the p1ss out of Diane Abbotts general incompetence. I have seen it happen more than once on here.

Perhaps you'd like to start a thread about it?

 

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Agreed, it's a distraction on this thread, apologies 

 

tom_in_edinburgh - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Personally I could argue that I'd like Brexit to be stopped but practically I'd be concerned about the long term repercussions of doing so.

The long term repercussions of going through with a suicide pact are a lot worse than those of disappointing people by changing your mind.   

> As for being against the net results, I'd say that it is quite possible to believe that leaving the EU is the right thing to do AND to also  wish to live in France.

Yes, but in those circumstances an honest person would stay out of the debate, not become leader of the leave campaign.   You don't get to be captain and persuade the crew to steer a risky course if your intention is to jump ship.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Tyler:

> Oh FFS, you posted a completely equivocal BS answer to my original question, so I called you on it. When I posted that reply I saw that in answer to someone else you had, in part, answered my original question so I thought 'fair enough, he's said what he is doing' so rather than get into a pointless to and fro I deleted my reply. You made a comment, in what I thought was a reasonably light hearted manner, about the deletion; I responded in, what I thought was a reasonably light hearted manner, and you called me dick. Now I've got to clog up this thread with more shite of no interest to anyone else simply to point out that I wasn't hiding anything, there was nothing to own etc. So in the interests of full disclosure my, now deleted reply, went something like this:

> "You say:

> What does that mean, it just sounds like Brexiter BS and blame shifting."

> There you go, happy to 'own' that, well done on derailing the thread with your petty point scoring and personal insults.

I've joked about deleting posts that make you appear to be a bit of a dick ;)

I can only apologise if any of my other comments have been taken personally, they were intended at a wider level where the press, politicians and other campaigners are all too often guilty of collectively acting in a spectacularly childish manner.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Yes, what is your point?

That I merely asked a question, I never claimed anything let alone whatever it was that you thought I was claiming.

> No it will be harder, the unknown is how much harder. I don’t see anything immature about exposing hypocrisy.

The question in my mind is whether or not it is hypocrisy. If he was campaigning solely to make it more difficult for people to move to France it would be obvious, that was not the sole aim of the leave campaign.

> I do worry that the team we have doing the negociation on our behalf lack the expertise to competently do the job.

Sadly I think we knew from the outset that we didn't have enough negotiators of half the calibre of the EU team from the outset.

 

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> The long term repercussions of going through with a suicide pact are a lot worse than those of disappointing people by changing your mind.   

That depnds on whether or not you view Brexit as a "suicide pact" or an unexpected and vwery disappointing gift.

> Yes, but in those circumstances an honest person would stay out of the debate, not become leader of the leave campaign.   You don't get to be captain and persuade the crew to steer a risky course if your intention is to jump ship.

Does living in France equate to jumping ship?

If all politicians had to be "onboard the ship" for all the decisions that they make then we would never go anywhere.

 

2
Bob Kemp - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

At the risk of throwing more fuel on the flames...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/03/government-plays-down-brexit-armageddon-fears

 - there's no wonder Lawson wants to make sure he can stay in France!

“In the second scenario, not even the worst, the port of Dover will collapse on day one. The supermarkets of Cornwall and Scotland will run out of food within a couple of days, and hospitals will run out of medicines within two weeks,” a source told the paper.

And yes, I know, just a scenario, Project Fear etc. ...

 

tom_in_edinburgh - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> Does living in France equate to jumping ship?

Deciding to live in the EU yourself definitely counts as jumping ship when trying to persuade others to leave the EU.

 

 

Tyler - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

> I've joked about deleting posts that make you appear to be a bit of a dick ;)

Not true, you called me a dick after you had 'joked' about the deleted post. You've now chosen to double down on the original insult even after I explained the reason for the deletion and reposted the original which seemed to be the issue for you.

> I can only apologise if any of my other comments have been taken personally

I didn't take any comments personally you directly insulted which you have chosen not to apologise for but, instead repeat. The 'other stuff', is as you say non personal. 

Apologies to everyone else, I appreciate this is in danger of turning into a Postmanpat vs Rom name calling Brexit spat, I promise not engage with this dick any further.

Post edited at 14:14
Andy Lagan - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Exactly John.

I live in France due to my British passport. As I have declared tax here for over 5 years I can apply for a French Carte de séjour when the UK officially leaves the EU. It's a foregone conclusion that Me, Lawson and other UK nationals living in France will be allowed to stay. Unfortunately for future generations, when freedom of movement is removed to UK nationals, the application to obtain a Carte de séjour will be more difficult.

To have voted Leave, and in Lawson's case, actively campaigned to Leave, and the apply for a Carte de séjour is a disgusting display of hypocrisy, but I wouldn't expect anything else him.

timjones - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Tyler:

My quote was

"There is nothing worng with making yourself look a bit of a dick but you should at least have the balls to own it ;)"

in what way is that anything other than a joke.

You accused someone of "brexiteer BS", tried but failed to delete the post before they spotted it and now you're claiming to be insulted because they tried to be lighthearted about it?

5
john yates - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Lagan:

His actions aren’t hypocritical. He’s simply proving that residency in other countries is not impossible post Brexit. The reasons for leaving is that nation states control who has residency. 

11
john yates - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

More Gruaniad fake news. 

10
john yates - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

You really think the Euro zone isn’t heading for a crash. Like most remainers you think being on the bigger vessel makes you less likely to hit an iceberg? Hmm 

6
john yates - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to timjones:

Well argued that man. The greatest climber in the world can’t seem to extricate his head from his bottom though. Lawson not denying others the right. Simple. Like the vore John. Get over it. You lost. 

9
john yates - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

John’s got people shooting themselves in the feet again. Best ban guns. 

8
pasbury on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

Thank-you for your contribution.

john yates - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to pasbury:

A pleasure as always to join in these splendid debates. 

Bob Kemp - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> More Gruaniad fake news. 

This kind of comment is merely further fakery without evidence. A waste of time. 

Andy Lagan - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

Ah no, he's  using a device to secure residency that derives from freedom of movement, so sorry mate, that's hypocritical.

Like I said, he's guaranteed to secure a Carte de séjour because he has already been living in France, helped by freedom of movement, which he has actively campaigned to be taken away from future generations. Sure, Britons will be able to apply to live in France after the U.K. leaves th EU, but it will be much harder than for us, who have had the benefit of having lived here already.

I guess it's similar to his economic reforms, which have helped to prevent future generations from owning houses.

Or his campaign to deny Climate change, potentially causing future generations to experience a far greater environmental threat than he ever has.

The guy is odious.

bedspring on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> We are working for the common good. And that first requires recognising public support for a People's Vote and then implementing it.

Just read this https://www.opendemocracy.net/michael-j-sandel/populism-trump-and-future-of-democracy

Then consider who "we" and "public" and "people" really mean. I suspect that many of the people you know are the same as I know, climbing is a very small world. Well educated, well resourced with the ability to move around and earn money.

I suspect that you do not know many who are relatively poor, stuck in shit places etc etc. If you tried to understand the world from their perspective you may move forwards. Read the article, its good.

Post edited at 08:54
john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

Thanks for the link. I agree it's a very good piece, albeit much stronger on explaining issues than on identifying solutions. As a basis for longer-term social and economic planning it has a lot to offer.

The problem we rather urgently have in the UK is that we are heading at high speed for things getting a whole lot worse, not just for those who may be marginalised by the current market-led society, but for almost everyone except a small number of highly influential individuals whose personal prospects are not in line with those of their country. The only significant voice we have at present that can reach sufficient numbers of people to halt (or even to temper) this emerging catastrophe is that of the opposition Labour party, whose leader, despite many promising policies, appears to be fully in favour of the impending train crash. If the crash happens, and if it turns out as destructive as almost all knowledgeable opinion suggests, then it could be many years before the country is able to regain not only the economic freedom but also the moral confidence to begin major socio-economic reforms. I can't see Corbyn surviving a disastrous Brexit, given that he has been so limp (at best) in opposing it, so we'd end up once again in a political vacuum seeing chancers such as Boris and Farage reap personal rewards for inciting further discontent.

bedspring on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Out of interest, do you think it totally inconceivable that the rising tide of populisim could destroy the EU and that as bad as things may get in the short term for the UK, in the medium to long term it may be better for the UK?

MG - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

It's possible.  The unfortunate things is the two issues are strongly coupled - Brexit makes populism elsewhere more powerful and the EU weaker and less stable.  The antagonistic approach being taken by the government to negotiations makes these things worse, which is another reason they are doing a bad job, and strategically, not just with regard to a short term exit deal.

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

> Out of interest, do you think it totally inconceivable ...

Yes.

Edit: as an oversimplified analogy. If it were to turn out that the currently well-functioning EU ship were to start sinking for any reason in future, it would be better to start swimming at that point, once we were sure it was definitely going down and when we're nearer the shore, than to jump off now in the middle of a vast ocean while we have no idea which direction land might be found. I hasten to add that such an analogy won't suffer further stretching ;-)

Post edited at 10:34
bedspring on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Yes.

>

Wow, you think it inconceivable, then our views are a million miles apart. I do not think it is about to happen, however in the medium to long term, if Macron does not get a handle on things and if Italy goes even more pear shaped, I would not be totally surprised.

Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

> Out of interest, do you think it totally inconceivable that the rising tide of populisim could destroy the EU and that as bad as things may get in the short term for the UK, in the medium to long term it may be better for the UK?

I know I'm not John A, but my answer to the first part would be that whilst not totally inconceivable, its massively, massively unlikely. And no, it will not be better for the uk in any term, as the UK would only look better, or less bad, in comparison to what would be then ex EU members. As separate nations, the current EU members would be weakened, therefore our largest trading partners as a combination would be weaker, further driving down the UK economy in the medium to long term. 

Its a very strange view, that having weaker neighbours somehow makes us better.........wasn't brexit supposed to make us a global player?

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

Ian W has described it well. The part about the EU somehow ultimately failing is not beyond the bounds of imagination, though I fail to see any genuine signs of such a circumstance evolving in the foreseeable future. The bit you added later about, were such a circumstance somehow to come to pass, might the UK somehow somehow be better off having gone it alone very much earlier, is the bit I think is inconceivable. The UK will be weakened from the day it leaves, and I think ideas about prospering in newly-found isolationism while the EU crashes and burns is wishful thinking of the highest order.

bedspring on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

I voted Brexit. I was then half way through an OU degree studying all the issues surrounding it.

  • Globalisation
  • Neo Liberalisim
  • International negotiations.
  • Economic theories.
  • Trade
  • Borders
  • Climate change.
  • Peoples sense of place.
  • and much more

at the time I was unsure of how to vote. I was actually part way through a move from being totally uneducated and ultra right wing to having a degree and being a bit Liberal really.

For me Brexit will be shit, and I wish I had voted remain, however I have changed much more than many people and I can see why the old me would still vote Brexit.

I also do believe that unless the EU gets its act together and addresses the growing amount of people with stagnating living standards due to globalisation and technological advances, it could be drowned by populisim.

Bob Kemp - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

Thanks for this -very open and honest of you. I was a Leaver (or rather, a Not-Joiner) in the 70s and early 80s, a very common lefty position then. The EU as a capitalists' club, no benefit to ordinary people, that kind of thing. (Like Corbyn & co. now really). I was converted when I saw gains to prosperity, stronger positions in international negotiation, freer borders and travel, and some protection against the more negative aspects of globalisation and neo-liberalism. I also believe that the EU needs to get its act together in many respects, and working to counter the forces of populism is a central part of that. It is flawed but I think it's fixable. 

john yates - on 11 Jun 2018
In reply to bedspring:

Drowned by populism?  You mean rejected by the voters? Arrogance and vanity of EU elite in full display over Italian vote. Contempt for democracy and collapse of euro will Be cause of EU demise. Brexit ‘negotiations’ a farce but expose how almost impossible it is th break free of EU tentacles. 

5
Rob Exile Ward on 11 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

Brexit is breaking down because it's almost impossible to avoid the fact that we are part of Europe: geographically, politically, economically, socially, culturally. 

RomTheBear on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Arrogance and vanity of EU elite in full display over Italian vote.

Ha yes ? Where did you see that ? Seems to me they played it well and avoided antagonising them - leaving them to auto destruct with their nonsensical and contradictory policies.

Post edited at 06:42
john yates - on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Europe is not the EU, don’t conflate the two. The idea that it has been a universal good is not shared by Italy and Spain and other club Med countries with staggering levels of youth unemployment and austerity forced upon them by EU core. It’s not Brexit that is failing. It is the EU. The challenge is whether EU can reform - or be reformed - before catastrophic collapse. 

5
john yates - on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

EU Budget Cimmissioner Günther Oettinger tellling Italian voters: “My concern and expectation is that the coming weeks will show that developments in Italy’s markets, bonds and economy will become so far-reaching that it might become a signal to voters after all to not vote for populists on the right and left.’

he was rebuked by a fellow commissioner for lecturing voters on how to vote. My point is that the EUs failed policies/aspirations are the cause of the very thing that Oettinger bemoans, the rise is of so-called populism.  Your own reply displays the same sneering disdain for stupid voters and stupid Italians. If you think EU leaders are laissez afire about Italian meltdown you must be living in tax exile in  Cyprus or the like. ????

2
Rob Exile Ward on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

This is a major point of difference - I believe the EU (or something like it) is an inevitable consequence of geography. Nations at a similar state of development will do better if hey have frictionless borders and can trade easily with each other. For that you need shared regulations and agreed ways of arbitration...

And I don't sneer at voters, I have total contempt for their leaders. The likes of IDS, JRM, DD and the rest have no frigging idea of how the world operates; what work, that puts food on our plates and goods in our shops - actually looks like. 

RomTheBear on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> EU Budget Cimmissioner Günther Oettinger tellling Italian voters: “My concern and expectation is that the coming weeks will show that developments in Italy’s markets, bonds and economy will become so far-reaching that it might become a signal to voters after all to not vote for populists on the right and left.’

> he was rebuked by a fellow commissioner for lecturing voters on how to vote.

QED.

> My point is that the EUs failed policies/aspirations are the cause of the very thing that Oettinger bemoans, the rise is of so-called populism.  Your own reply displays the same sneering disdain for stupid voters and stupid Italians.

No, that just you being hysterical and paranoid.

> If you think EU leaders are laissez afire about Italian meltdown you must be living in tax exile in  Cyprus or the like. ????

I can assure you I pay all my taxes, a tremendous amount in fact.

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I can assure you I pay all my taxes, a tremendous amount in fact.

You are Donald J Trump, and I claim my five pounds....

;-)

 

Bob Kemp - on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

> Europe is not the EU, don’t conflate the two. The idea that it has been a universal good is not shared by Italy and Spain and other club Med countries with staggering levels of youth unemployment and austerity forced upon them by EU core. It’s not Brexit that is failing. It is the EU. The challenge is whether EU can reform - or be reformed - before catastrophic collapse. 

Don't conflate Spain and Italy either. They're very different, with Spanish attitudes to the EU becoming more positive over the last couple of years. As for the EU failing, what's your evidence of failure? And Brexit not failing? It hasn't even started in earnest and it's a monumental mess.

Bob Kemp - on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to john yates:

>  My point is that the EUs failed policies/aspirations are the cause of the very thing that Oettinger bemoans, the rise is of so-called populism.  

A single cause? I don't think so. There are many causes, not least neo-liberalism and the threats posed by hyper-globalisation, the fallout of the end of Communism in E. Europe, a broad sense of powerlessness that is engendered as much by the failings of internal politics in many European countries as by the EU, and more. Don't oversimplify.

 


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