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Learner drivers - Heads up

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 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021

Just a heads up.

My youngest daughter is currently learning to drive, she has her own car and we frequently sit with her whilst she drives (To take her to work). She has been informed by her driving instructer that in England this is currently against the rules.

I checked and it is ok in Wales and Scotland but not in England.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-restarting-driver-and-rider-training-and-tests/coronavirus-restarting-driver-and-rider-training-and-tests

Given that it’s not even allowed for essential journeys I can only assume the government really don’t want us driving if at all possible, I guess a learner driver is a greater risk of having an accident.

 jelaby 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

That link says

> This guide is for approved driving instructors (ADIs), motorcycle trainers, and lorry and bus (vocational) trainers

It's not guidance for parents taking their own children out in a car.

Not saying everyone's wrong, just that that page does not say either way. 

Seems to me that driving with your child to their work,(that they are allowed to go to) is better, from a Covid-spreading point of view, than their taking public transport.

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to jelaby:

Ah good spot, never noticed that!

Ive since checked with my policeman brother-in-law and he hasn’t been told to stop learners.

 marsbar 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Are you in the same household or bubble already?  

In reply to marsbar:

The previous link was advice to Driver trainers.

The advice to learner drivers is pretty clear - you are not allowed.

Post edited at 14:48

 marsbar 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> The previous link was advice to Driver trainers.

> The advice to learner drivers is pretty clear - you are not allowed.

Fair enough.  Seems a shame that they couldn't make an exception for driving to work.  

 marsbar 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Does this mean you will have to drive her to work?  How annoying.

 jelaby 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Good find. Could you include a link to that page please? It's nice to be able to see why I couldn't find it in the first place.

 marsbar 10 Jan 2021
In reply to jelaby:

Looks like its filed under Learning to drive and not under Coronavirus. 

In reply to Dan Arkle:  Thanks, I was looking for that.  Do you have a link?

 jelaby 10 Jan 2021
In reply to marsbar:

Actually, since seeing the OP I have been pondering the question: are you allowed to drive someone else (from your own household) to work within these restrictions?

The relevant bit of law seems to be

> (5) Exception 2 is that it is reasonably necessary for P to leave or be outside P’s home—

> (a)for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for P to work, or to provide those services, from home;

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

P can leave home for the purposes of work where it is not reasonably possible for P to work at home.

Can Q leave home for the purposes of taking P to work?

In the guidance (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-safer-travel-guidance-for-passengers#private-cars-and-other-vehicles) you're allowed to car share within your household but if taking someone else to work car sharing?

This can't be all that uncommon, can it?

Edit: I mean, not so uncommon that it doesn't deserve a sentence in the guidance.

Post edited at 15:16
 Ian W 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

Is this a recent thing or has it been in place since lockdown 1.0?

We're in the same boat since Daughter No.2 turned 17 in the summer and have regularly frequented the local industrial estated for practice sessions.......

The car is registered and insured in her name; and thinking about it, the insurance company (in early sept) said nothing about this; if we knew we weren't allowed to do it, we wouldnt have splashed out on the insurance......

In reply to Ian W:

The rules were very different in September.

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to marsbar:

> Does this mean you will have to drive her to work?  How annoying.

My daughter lives with us. Since she hasn’t yet passed her test we have always driven her to work or she has driven and we have sat with her.

Nothing has changed it’s just who sits in what seat that may have changed. 

Post edited at 17:22
 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

It was her driving instructor who told her, he never mentioned it during the previous lockdown.

In reply to Simon CD:

I would take the view point that practicing is going for a drive for the purpose of practicing. 

The Op is taking their daughter to work, it just happens that the daughter is driving. 

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Simon CD:

Thanks. Looks like it’s a definite no then! 

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to Dax H:

> I would take the view point that practicing is going for a drive for the purpose of practicing. 

> The Op is taking their daughter to work, it just happens that the daughter is driving. 

I would argue the same but unfortunately the link that Simon posted does say you can only do that if you live in Wales or Scotland.

 marsbar 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

That's what I mean, you both have to be there, she needs the practice, its annoying.  Ah well. 

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to marsbar:

> Ah well. 

Yep, frustrating but understandable I guess. And there’s more important stuff to worry about at the moment! 

 gethin_allen 10 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

I think you'd have to meet a real arsehole of a copper to get done for this.

This is the sort of ludicrous bullshit that is making people weary of the rules wholesale and resulting in people ignoring them and doing things that are actually potentially risky.

 WaterMonkey 10 Jan 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> I think you'd have to meet a real arsehole of a copper to get done for this.

> This is the sort of ludicrous bullshit that is making people weary of the rules wholesale and resulting in people ignoring them and doing things that are actually potentially risky.

I agree about the copper bit but for me that’s not the point. They’ve specifically made a rule about it so presumably they have identified it as a risk, I assume leaner drivers must be more of a risk to have an accident. 
Im following the rules, this is going to be an horrific shit storm soon and I want to know I’ve done my bit by following the rules. 

 Jenny C 10 Jan 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> I think you'd have to meet a real arsehole of a copper to get done for this.

Our more scarily have to a bump and find out the insurance is invalid.

> This is the sort of ludicrous bullshit that is making people weary of the rules wholesale and resulting in people ignoring them and doing things that are actually potentially risky.

Agree. Not being allowed to go for a drive to build up practices makes total sense.

Not being allowed to drive when supervised by a member of your own household, on a journey that meets the 'permitted reason to travel' rules is bonkers.

In reply to Jenny C:

One can't help but wonder if the reason for this is to ensure learners are out of practice and so result in a smaller backlog of tests when test centres reopen.

In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I would argue the same but unfortunately the link that Simon posted does say you can only do that if you live in Wales or Scotland.

I disagree, commuting isn't practicing. I have followed the rules and where the rules are lacking stuck to the spirit of lockdown too and I see no problem with someone driving to work. 

The only issue maybe as someone mentioned, insurance. 

In reply to Dax H:

I'd be interested to see what it says in the relevant legislation but that guidance is using words like must and cannot which usually implies it's as per the legislation.

Is commuting practicing? Depending on the actual legislation, looks like another one of those vague bits that ultimately would need a court to determine.

 gethin_allen 11 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I agree about the copper bit but for me that’s not the point. They’ve specifically made a rule about it so presumably they have identified it as a risk, I assume leaner drivers must be more of a risk to have an accident. 

> Im following the rules, this is going to be an horrific shit storm soon and I want to know I’ve done my bit by following the rules. 

If you really believe that there is significant risk associated with you taking your daughter out driving, beyond the usual risk that is, then maybe you should step back and leave it to the professionals. Covid or not.

 Ian W 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Dax H:

> I disagree, commuting isn't practicing. I have followed the rules and where the rules are lacking stuck to the spirit of lockdown too and I see no problem with someone driving to work. 

If you are a learner, surely any time behind the wheel is practice? But it does seem odd; I have regularly taken junior out for practice, and simply hadn't given it a second thought until I read this thread; someone did clarify upthread that it had changed between September and now. Ah well, end of supervised practice for now........

> The only issue maybe as someone mentioned, insurance.

Indeed; I might ask the insurance lot what their take on it is........

In reply to Ian W:

I wonder if an element of it is ease of enforcement - as I've said on other threads, a law to be effective is ideally easy to enforce and to comply with.

So if you ban all practice, that means any car with L-plates displayed with more than one person in it is fair game to pull over and fine.  (Some lazy people leave them displayed, but that is not legal anyway; they should only be displayed when the car is actually being driven by the learner - much less common now they are almost all magnetic rather than stickers).

Post edited at 09:22
 WaterMonkey 11 Jan 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> If you really believe that there is significant risk associated with you taking your daughter out driving, beyond the usual risk that is, then maybe you should step back and leave it to the professionals. Covid or not.

I see my original one word comment has been deleted!

I haven’t once said I believe there is a significant risk. There is a small risk though as the person driving is relatively inexperienced and there is no dual control. Multiply that small risk by thousands who do it and you get a much larger risk.

It’s all moot though, it has been written in the guidance that we must not do it. 

In reply to Neil Williams:  I think it is legal to leave the L plates on when the car is driven by a qualified driver - the Highway  Code (Annex 3) uses ‘should’ rather than ‘must’ for this so it is guidance not law.

In reply to Simon CD:

I stand corrected.

 Qwerty2019 11 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

As always it comes back to what you are comfortable with.  I wouldn't suggest taking someone out to practice their driving is unlawful. 

I imagine having to make a call for an ambulance following a RTA at present because your learner driving child made a mistake and has injured someone or themselves is pretty much the worst call the ambulance service could receive at present.

For balance my son had a 4mth pause in his learning to drive at the start of 2020 and only had lessons with his instructor when they were allowed again.  We couldnt allow ourselves to risk making that call.  TBH at the moment i would apply this to everything because the last place i want to be is the hospital for any reason

 gethin_allen 11 Jan 2021
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> I see my original one word comment has been deleted!

Was it a rude word?

Ah dear, that must be annoying.

In reply to Dax H:

> The Op is taking their daughter to work, it just happens that the daughter is driving. 

Since the daughter doesn't have a full driving licence, I think they would argue that any driving is supervised practice.

 WaterMonkey 11 Jan 2021
In reply to All:

Daughter just got an email from DVSA saying the government has changed their mind and learner drivers in England can now practice as part of an essential journey!

In reply to WaterMonkey:

Yep, new advice on DVSA twitter. 


In reply to WaterMonkey:

As the above two posts. Learners can be supervised by family members/bubble members when making essential journeys.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-lessons-learning-to-drive?fbclid=IwAR3C8jLMOM52gkhh-gMiaK09EeH5S_L2Ga-C6BYHyXQ6PL3KLUdTIavEDyQ

Post edited at 23:54

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