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Learning to weld

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Deadeye 25 May 2019

Quite fancy it to expand my pottering around in the workshop scope.

Know nothing.

MIG, TUG, plasma, MMA? What's best for s hobbyist?

Course? Book?

How hard/long?

Those kinds of questions! Any advice?

Removed User 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

MIG is the easiest process but the lowest quality. Think of MIG as being used to make garage doors and TIG and MMA to make power station boilers.

TIG might be appropriate if you intend to do fine work though.

 rogersavery 25 May 2019
In reply to Removed User:

Apparently learning TIG first is the best option but the hardest, then the transition to other methods is easy.

I taught myself to mig weld along time ago, it’s fairly easy to get a really decent weld.

youtube is a great source of information on welding

and don’t forget “a grinder and paint make you the welder you ain’t”!

Post edited at 10:56
 yeti 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

well, I only weld with a 140 amp stick welder but here goes...my father (engineer at a special reinforcing steel place) taught me

mig is easier to weld thin steel, also quicker to learn (so I'm told) 

but there is a gas feed to faff with

stick (arc) is good with some experience, but difficult with steel thinner than 2mm

and I'm told... gives a better weld than mig if you know what you are doing

I think tig is a bit specialist, not really a hobby thing

it really boils down to what things you might want to weld

all it takes is getting the distance between the stick and the metal right 

and the angle right and the speed of travel right and the rate of feeding the stick in right 

all at the same time, just lots of practice, it is a great feeling to glue two things together 

permanently and instantly

no doubt someone here knows more than me ...  : )

Deadeye 25 May 2019
In reply to Removed User:

Thanks all.

I just want to tack some bits together as an adjunct to woodwork.

 Reach>Talent 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

From the perspective of someone in a similar position:

Mig is easiest to learn and great if you want to do a lot of high volume fabrication, however teaches you nothing about the other techniques. 

Mma/stick/arc is the cheapest to start and is a good teacher for tig, but isn't great on thin stuff. I use it for thick mild steel.

Tig is the most versatile, most expensive and not the easiest to learn but is really good for awkward stuff (stainless etc). 

I purchased an inverter based arc welder and then a scratch start tig kit to go with it as I need to do some stainless steel stuff.

There is a huge quantity of welding information on YouTube. Weldingtipsandtricks, the fabrication series, ave, this old Tony and abom79 channels are all worth a watch.

GoneFishing111 25 May 2019
In reply to Reach>Talent:

aVe is a cool guy! 

 deepsoup 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

This website might interest you: https://www.mig-welding.co.uk  (It isn't all about MiG, there's lots of other stuff there too.)

There's a forum there too, which is friendly and full of good info.  Worth a bit of a browse.

Deadeye 25 May 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

The tutorial in that looks fab - thank you!

Is second hand kit ok?  What can wear out/break?

 wilkie14c 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

what can wear out?

wire liner, copper tips, wire liner, shrouds get covered in splatter too. All easy and cheap to replace. 

Get the Haynes manual of wielding, covers all disciplines, easy to understand and cheap for what you get.

One thing I will say, don’t get a gas/gasless machine. gassless MIG is messy and smoky and the welds aren’t pretty.

 Glug 25 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

If it's just for small jobs in the garage and you are prepared/want to put in the extra time to learn to weld, I'd suggest starting with MMA  it's trickier than MIG but if you learn it first you'll find it a lot easier to pick up MIG afterwards than you would the other way round. I would recommend getting an inverter welder that you can add a scratch TIG to at a later date, if the budget will stretch that far. The good thing with MMA is there are no gases to worry about so you can use them outside if it's windy. 

 Reach>Talent 25 May 2019
In reply to wilkie14c:

I'd say the one exception to the no gasless mig rule is if you are going to be working outside where gas isn't great. 

If you aren't working outside then think about ventilation, the rules on welding in the workplace have been tightened up and while forced air welding hoods are probably outside the budget of the average home welder you should try to be like Bill Clinton and not inhale.

 Sharp 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

As deepsoup mentioned, the mig-welding website is the place to go first. Lots of good tutorials and countless forum posts for starting out.

I got a clarke 151en a few years ago and it's been a good machine to start on. Its a gasless mig but I ended up buying the gas kit for it, gasless is a poor way to start for beginners because you can't really see what you're doing. I think for everything - machine, two reels of different thickness wire, regulator, spare consumables, gas bottle and deposit and ppe it probably cost me about £400 but I bought things in stages.

In terms of how long it took I think it probably took me about 30 minutes to start sticking metal together solidly but probably about 6 hours before I started to click with it. I don't use it very often so it usually takes me half an hour of playing around with scrap to get back into it but it will do thicknesses from thin car body panels to about 4 or 5mm. If you're looking at migs then you want something that will go down to 30a and up to about 130-150a, anything over 30a and you'll struggle with thinner stuff, much over 150a and you'll probably be struggling on a domestic supply.

The biggest argument for stick is it's cheap and the machines are less complicated, so you can pick up everything you need and a second hand machine for well under £100 but it is harder to get the hang of, things like working upside down is another big learning curve compared to mig where you would just slip the wire speed up a bit and it's basically the same. As others have said stick isn't great on thinner stuff as well.

Another advantage of mig is that if you want to do some alu or stainless in the future you can use it for that, different gas and wire and you aren't going to get as good results as tig but it's possible. If you're going to take it up as a hobby then I can see the advice to start with the hard stuff being valid but if you're looking for a workshop workhouse you can use on everything and pick up quite quickly then mig is the way to go.

If you have air then a decent die grinder and some decent burrs are invaluable for cutting welds back when you're starting out. Gets into places a grinder wont. You will go through plenty flap discs and when you're getting your helmet it's worth spending a bit more getting an auto dimming one. Visibility makes it a lot easier to learn, a big light and a torch on your gun helped me a lot as well.

 NottsRich 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

I'd suggest MIG. Also, disagree with the messy welds from gasless (flux cored) MIG. The welds will need a wire brushing afterwards, but then look fine. Penetration is equivalent to gas MIG of similar output. Lastly, if you're welding outside or where there is a breeze, flux cored wire (gasless MIG) is much better than gas MIG where the gas blows away much quicker and leads to poor welds.

Get a decent mask. I started out without an automatic mask and it was a faff but manageable. Swapping to a decent automatic mask made a big difference.

 Glug 28 May 2019
In reply to Sharp:

You are correct that MIG is the easiest to learn and you give some great advice on equipment needed, I would second the recommendation to get a decent welding helmet that is light sensitive. In my experience if you want to weld stainless and not use TIG then MMA gives a much neater and better looking weld than MIG, also you can weld aluminium with MMA and that way there is no need for extra gas cylinders. If the op just wants to have a tool in the garage then MIG is the easy option, if he wants to learn a new skill and become a proficient welder then I'd definitely start with MMA.

 Nik Jennings 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

Based on these assumptions:

1 you're just wanting to join a few bits of mild steel together, nothing crazy heavy or super thin.

2 you're going to be doing it in your workshop/garage.

3 this isn't your new burning passion in life, you just fancy being able to acceptably join some metal together as and when you feel the need.

Get a MIG (not gasless) and an auto dimming mask (not expensive nowadays) and go for it.

I generally use TIG at work but for a play around MIG is the way to go (or stick if you want cheap as poss).

So basically agreeing with everyone else  

 krikoman 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

Another vote for MMA, though I might be biased as that what I used during my apprenticeship, when TIG and MIG were exotic

 timjones 28 May 2019
In reply to rogersavery:

> and don’t forget “a grinder and paint make you the welder you ain’t”!

In welding it's not all about the looks. It doesn't matter how much you grind it and paint it, a poor weld is still going to be weak!

 jkarran 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

> MIG, TUG, plasma, MMA? What's best for s hobbyist?

Depends what you want to do and in which materials. MIG is cheap, quite versatile and very easy to learn, especially good for out of position stuff like welding underneath a car. TIG is very versatile material wise and hugely controllable but a nice AC machine (needed for Aluminium) is a *big* investment and it's largely limited to benchtop work, out of position TIG work is a real pain! TIG machines can be expanded with wire feed units to do MIG (more cost, rather niche use) or used for MMA which can be handy for odd metals or upside-down jobs.

> Course? Book?

Depends how you like to learn, I bought a book, TIG set and sat down with a pile of scrap until I could weld but that's how I learn.

> How hard/long?

MIG is very easy once the current and feed rate is set up it's basically a glue-gun for metal with a little thought needed at the edges/ends of a seam and where the metal is very thick, thin or may distort. TIG at its best needs two hands and one foot very well coordinated plus experience of the material. If you're good with your hands it's not desperately hard, if you're not it will be quite a learning curve.

> Those kinds of questions! Any advice?

For building furniture, sculpture, bikes, robots etc I'd be tempted by a high frequency (not scratch) starting 120A DC TIG. For a car I'd get a 150A ish MIG and teach myself. If you want to learn or do more you can always sell it to upgrade.

Renting gas bottles is expensive, especially if it's for occasional use yielding no return. Argon for TIG is also fairly expensive. Small disposable gas bottles don't last long and always run out at just the wrong moment.

jk

 jimtitt 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

In reality most hobby welders would be better off use a gas welding plant as learning is relatively easy and it´s the most versatile. Cutting, heating stuff to bend it, brazing and silver soldering etc are all kinda difficult with electric welders. I use all the above mentioned welders regularly but still keep a gas torch for wierd stuff! Brazing (especially with bronze) is still one of the best ways of joining some stuff.

MIG is messy and the welds generally poor, MMA is my go-for for thick stuff that needs a better quality weld or building up wear surfaces, TIG I use all day for stainless anyway and for aluminium (getting a bit expensive for hobby stuff though as you´ll be looking at thousands for anything functional). Plasma cutters are cheap, plasma welders aren´t!

Lift-off start conversions for MMA welders are ok, I use one sometimes when my other welder is in for servicing but the control isn´t so good and you still need the argon cylinder. Probably the way to go for a hobby guy if you don´t want to go oxy-acetylene.

 cmgcmg 28 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

TIG every time.  Dead easy to do.  No time pressure to get it right.  It's slow and best on thin stuff but most sets will also stick weld.  Gas is cheap with a lot of competition for the DIY market.  I've ended up with various sets for MIG, TIG and Stick and since getting the TIG have not really touched the others.  

Start with some well cut metal and you don't even need to add filler to get an excellent looking weld (not the strongest..)

That said it all comes down to what you want to make.  Most time is spent cutting the metal, grinding it, cleaning it.  Jigging it.  Final 10% welding it plus grinding off any mess and painting it...

MIG 10's of meters per hour  2- mm thick, reel of wire of same type as joining, Gas can vary by metal but usually argon/co2.  

TIG 1 meter per hour 1- mm thick, filler wire to suit metal, gas us usually argon, very few sparks

Stick 10's of meters per hour, 3- mm thick  (of course you can do 200mm + with multiple passes) slag formation need chipping off.

 Glug 28 May 2019
In reply to jkarran:

> Renting gas bottles is expensive, especially if it's for occasional use yielding no return. Argon for TIG is also fairly expensive. Small disposable gas bottles don't last long and always run out at just the wrong moment.

> jk

Try Hobbyweld they do a 9 litre cylinder for £42 per refill, with a one of rental fee of £65. 

 Glug 28 May 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

I can't say I agree with you with regards gas welding being easy to learn compared to any of the other types being talked about, but it is always handy having a gas torch for the other jobs you mention, it's probably better to have a Propane setup though for most home workshops (although it won't be any good if you do want to gas weld) as it's safer than Acetylene and I think you need a licence to have an Acetylene cylinder at home.

 Timmd 28 May 2019
In reply to timjones:

> In welding it's not all about the looks. It doesn't matter how much you grind it and paint it, a poor weld is still going to be weak!

I got the sense he was being tongue in cheek...

 jkarran 29 May 2019
In reply to Glug:

Cheers, good tip. I've been here a decade now and there's still stuff I knew how to source quickly and sensibly priced back home I'd struggle to find here despite the internet making life easier.

jk

 jkarran 29 May 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> In reality most hobby welders would be better off use a gas welding plant as learning is relatively easy and it´s the most versatile. Cutting, heating stuff to bend it, brazing and silver soldering etc are all kinda difficult with electric welders. I use all the above mentioned welders regularly but still keep a gas torch for wierd stuff! Brazing (especially with bronze) is still one of the best ways of joining some stuff.

It's a good point but the hassle of hazardous gases and hoses and two lots of bottle rental always put me off. Plus gas welding aluminium is essentially an advanced form of very smokey witchcraft.

jk

Post edited at 10:02
Deadeye 29 May 2019
In reply to the thread:

So, total concensus!

I knew if I waited long enough I'd have staunch advocates for all forms.

I'm probably going to spend my dish on a day long course (assuming I can find one) and MMA. For the amount I'll do, I can't justify the more expensive rigs.

Rigid Raider 29 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

We have 21 kms of stainless steel tubing in our robotic chemicals factory and every single joint was TIG welded by four Hungarians who stayed for four months. The work is perfect and a joy to behold; there wasn't a single leak in thousands of welds. 

 jimtitt 29 May 2019
In reply to jkarran:

£42 for 9l Argon? I'd be bankrupt in a week! €109 for 50l. Deposit was maybe about the same, can't remember.

 Reach>Talent 29 May 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

I think it depends on usage, if you run through a lot of argon then the BOC/Airliquide etc are much cheaper but for occasional use then HobbyWeld and their ilk make sense over the tiny disposable bottles. 

 WaterMonkey 29 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

She was only a welder's daughter but she had acetylene legs

boom boom

I'll get my coat

 Glug 29 May 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

For occasional use it was the cheapest option I could find as there is no rental fee just the one off deposit, obviously in a workshop environment where we are laying down metres of weld at a time you have a BOC account, would have thought that was obvious.

 SC 29 May 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

MIG is the easiest to make look nice but not so easy to make a mechanically good weld, to say it's low quality is rubbish since it's used for pressure vessels, nuclear equipment, submarine hulls, oil rigs etc. It just takes skill and good joint preparation to do well. It's quite expensive for a reasonable machine and you'll need plenty of spare tips & shrouds when learning.

MMA is difficult to do well and has limited uses in DIY other than welding gates & railings. Cheap to get started but expensive to keep buying electrodes.

TIG is what I'd go for. Not too difficult to learn as long as you can cope with coordinating your hands. You will also need a bench grinder for sharpening tips. If you get an AC unit you can weld aluminium as well which will teach you all manner of new profanities. 

 jimtitt 29 May 2019
In reply to Glug:

> For occasional use it was the cheapest option I could find as there is no rental fee just the one off deposit, obviously in a workshop environment where we are laying down metres of weld at a time you have a BOC account, would have thought that was obvious.


You pay rent for the cylinder? A concept we don't have here in Germany, looks like BOC are screwing you over.

 Glug 29 May 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Yearly rent is from about £85/110 for a small cylinder suitable for the home plus delivery of about £60 or £15 if you pick it up, industrial size cylinders are between £125/220 all plus VAT.

 jkarran 29 May 2019
In reply to Glug:

Which is why my nice AC TIG set has sat doing nothing for years. A rent free bottle puts an expensive welding machine back into occasional service.

jk

 jimtitt 29 May 2019
In reply to Glug:

Yeah, a quick search tells me there are a few companies starting to sell gas in the UK a sensible way at a price I can understand but its a rarity. I'm used to just throwing an empty in the back of the car and going to any gas dealer and swapping it for about €110. Brand doesn't matter either.


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