UKC

/ Leave supporters: how is the gov doing?

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Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018

I'm interesting in what Brexit-supporters feel about the way the government is handling the negotiations and whether the way that Brexit is shaping up meets your expectations. 

What do you think the goverment has got right and where do you think they have made mistakes?

Have the concessions they have made already (sequencing, brexit bill, transition period (this last one not really a concession)) fouled up your vision of Brexit or are they just speed bumps along the road? 

What potential future concession would make you feel that they have not lived up to the vote?

I'm directing this at Brexit-supporters mainly because i'm making the assumption that Remain votes don't like any of what the government is doing. If there are any remain votes that think that the government has got something right, then please feel free to chip in. Obvs its a public forum so anyone can chip in..

I'll be happy to share my views a few posts in but didn't want to in the OP to avoid influencing the contributions too much.  

 

Post edited at 15:29
3
Trangia on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Now doubt some might recall that prior to the Referendum I was a staunch supporter of the "Better the Devil you know camp......" so I am not in the least surprised at the way things have gone and are going. 

Remember the New Labour song "It can only get better"? Well it can only get worse now, unless the Nation comes to it's senses and ditches the whole crazy charade.......

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Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Thanks. I hope that this thread doesn't end up covering old ground on the pros and cons of Brexit which have been well enough covered here. I'm more interested in what people think about what has happened since Brexit. 

MG - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Good OP. I think the silence is telling! 

girlymonkey - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I'd say a huge mistake they have made is jumping into bed with the DUP. Now they have Westminster over a barrel with the Irish border/ customs union situation. I see no solution which the DUP will agree to which doesn't risk reigniting the troubles.

Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

thanks - just for the record, did you support leave or remain? its interesting to understand the perspective of each. 

Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to MG:

Thanks... regarding the silence, there is still time!

Also I think the view "I supported Brexit, I still do, but I think the government is making a hash of it." is entirely coherent. 

baron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to MG:

Sorry for the delay in replying, some of us have other things to do, climbing for instance.

Having just survived the polished horror show that is Symonds Yat I'm off for a lie down in a darkened room but I'll be back later to tell you how swimmingly I think Brexit is going.  

3
Murderous_Crow - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> Thanks... regarding the silence, there is still time!

> Also I think the view "I supported Brexit, I still do, but I think the government is making a hash of it." is entirely coherent. 

I do think the silence is telling. 

I've yet to hear any kind of convincing economic or social argument for Leave.

Just appeals to nostalgia, resentment and misplaced hope.

The people running the game. Look at them. The great minds that wanted to Leave. They don't have a f*cking clue.

The hash the Government are making of it is pretty incredible, in the farcical nature of the day-to-day. But plenty of people were able to anticipate the general and inevitable flavour of the shit-slinging mess well before the Referendum. 

Running it was irresponsible. Profoundly so. I hope to be proved wrong when I feel it may herald the breakdown of democracy, and of peace in Europe. More prosaically, NHS staffing is very much in doubt, EU nationals in the UK and Brits in the EU still don't have a clue, and strawberries are going to be expensive the next few years. 

Completely agree with Trangia. Responsibility needs to be taken, and the right thing must be done. Stop the madness.

Post edited at 17:38
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Rob Exile Ward on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

Compared to climbing at Symonds Yat it probably is

baron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Compared to climbing at Symonds Yat it probably is

Have a like for that!

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I'd say a huge mistake they have made is jumping into bed with the DUP. Now they have Westminster over a barrel with the Irish border/ customs union situation.

While I could never support association with the DUP on any grounds, I rather think they've had a positive influence in at least one sense, that of preventing the UK government from sacrificing the status and security of NI on the altar of Brexit dogma. Without their red lines, I suspect the recurrence of 'troubles' would be far more likely.

 

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girlymonkey - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I was trying keep the remain and leave arguments out of it in a bid to keep the discussion more civil and less entrenched! I wanted to keep to the brief of what are the government doing well or badly. (I was struggling with what they are doing well!)

Post edited at 17:52
Murderous_Crow - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

Good effort. Sorry to the OP; I don't want to derail your thread. 

But I do think the observation that the Govt. are messing the process up, is inextricably linked with the fact the entire thing was deeply ill-conceived. One cannot polish a turd.

girlymonkey - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

The only current solutions that seem vaguely plausible are; 

NI and the rest of the UK all leave customs union, and we have a hard border with Ireland. Bad plan

NI stays in customs union, rest of UK leave, border in the Irish sea. Not a great plan either.

All of UK and NI stay in customs union, no border.

 

Of these, the DUP would support the first over the second. I haven't read their stance on the third, but my feeling is that they don't fancy it. The Tories certainly don't fancy it. I suspect the first would be a bigger risk to the peace of the island than the second, although this also carries a risk, I would suspect. 

Have I missed an option? (A realistic one!)

wercat on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

We've been here before.  In the Eighties the Party told us how good Rail Privatisation would be and we've had decades of benefits ever since, and now the timetables are running better than ever, the best possible deal for us all.

I expect the same wonderful outcome from Brexit as it is all based on gutwish

baron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

So how is Brexit going?

Off to a bad start when Mr Cameron decided to do a runner leaving no plan.

Got worse when a remainer became Prime Minister.

Negotiations off to a poor start when the UK agrees to the EU's divorce agenda and timescale.

Stating no hard border in Ireland a real mistake and could be the downfall of all the negotiations.

Not leaving the Customs Union and single market a red line for me, unless we can stay in them without free movement, etc which isn't likely (possible).

Transition a good idea, well it would be if we knew what we were transitioning to.

So all in all we aren't doing too well - do I win the prize for under statement?

1
Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

Thanks, Baron.

I think staying in the single market would mean only very limited restrictions on free movemen5 beyond what was already possible within the EU. We could participate in the customs union without free movement (like Turkey) but would need to agree to common tariffs.

Michael Hood - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

I voted to leave. I realised that it was probably going to be economically worse than staying but I didn't want a US of Europe and I wanted our parliament to have primacy rather than having to enact EU edicts that come from a not very democratic system. I wasn't overly worried about immigration, just the related topic that nobody seems to consider the "how many people is a good number to live in UK" question.

How has it gone? Well let's just say that I would be stone cold sober if the government were organising something at a brewery.

First, Cameron, idiot calling referendum when he'd still got over a year to strengthen his viewpoint.

Second, let's have a leader who disagrees with it but cares more about power than the outcome.

Third, throw pragmatism out the window because it won't keep enough in your party happy.

Obvious route was to soft Brexit (still in the market) with a fixed time (5 years?) to another referendum: do we go back, do we stick, do we go hard brexit question.

But we can't do that because it would be too sensible so now we've got a complete feck up.

If I'd known this was what would happen (which wasn't predicted by remainers) I think I would have pragmatically voted to remain.

Rant over

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john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> Have I missed an option? (A realistic one!)

You've missed various options involving unicorns or eating cake, sadly those that seem to be being pursued the most actively and enjoy the highest popular support.

Realistic? Ah, maybe not so much.

1
Murderous_Crow - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

This is the most developed Leave-sympathetic argument I've heard yet. Had these kinds of ideas been implemented I would at least beoptimistic that, were Leave to be decided at the end of that fixed time of say 5yrs, the UK would have a good idea what it was voting for.

Instead I have the feeling that regardless of the outcome being 'good' or 'bad' (there will always be complainers and real victims too), we've been mugged by a very shady bunch of cut-throat gangster politicians with no principles beyond that of grabbing and holding on to power and saying anything at all to do so. Leaves a very sour taste. 

BnB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

It would be possible to interpret your question as a form of baiting the Leavers, even if that wasn’t your intention nor your stated desire. Predictably a few people have leapt on the opportunity 

But the point is that neither side should expect to be happy with the negotiations at this stage. For that matter, is the EU? I assure you not. What else could you expect before agreement is reached?

I think Mrs May is playing an impossible game rather successfully: forcing Leavers to betray how fractured their vision is, and how difficult it is to implement the simply articulated withdrawal from the single market. All the time, paying lip service to their objectives, while inviting them to unfold the incoherence of their vision. She is   forcing Boris and Mogg to own the difficulties and to be the obstacle to progress and you can sense their concern that the battle for hearts and minds is being lost by the relative volume in the press of the right vs the centre of the party. Ironically this would not have been possible if her position were not so weak.

 

 

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Murderous_Crow - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

That's an interesting take on it. And it's a possibility. Maybe Mrs May is doing a virtuoso job of selectively unveiling the various fallacies prior to some coup de grace. I'm not optimistic though. What would you see at the end of this, if you're correct? The UK position has not shifted one meaningful iota since day dot, and neither has that of the EU. Meanwhile the most fundamental problems remain unaddressed. The clock is ticking, and there are no new initiatives in the works. Not long now 'til the two years is up. 

pec on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> I'm interesting in what Brexit-supporters feel about the way the government is handling the negotiations and whether the way that Brexit is shaping up meets your expectations. 

A number of people have commented that the silence is telling, it is, but not what they think its telling them. Its saying that Brexiteers have long since given up discussing the matter on a forum which has become a platform for a hardcore of militant remaining UKCers to shout at each other about how right they are.

In the real world beyond these forums public opinion has barely shifted.

 

Post edited at 20:49
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Yanis Nayu - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

I just can’t see her being that clever. Everything you see of her just screams of incompetence. And nastiness.  

Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

thanks, good post. 

 

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> In the real world beyond these forums public opinion has barely shifted.

Head firmly in the sand, Pec?

You're right that public opinion doesn't seem to have shifted anywhere near as much as circumstances would suggest, largely due to very distorted reporting, apparently including a virtual ban on anti-Brexit sentiment by the BBC except in the Politics section of its website and therefore destined to reach a pretty small audience. Polls do, however, suggest that this relatively small shift of opinion is critical in indicating that a majority of people no longer support Brexit on the terms that are very slowly emerging. It seems that a People's Vote to determine the 'will of the people' once further flesh has been put on the bones of Brexit would be far from a foregone conclusion, and most likely would suggest that Brexit on the finally agreed terms would be rejected.

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Y Gribin - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> A number of people have commented that the silence is telling, it is, but not what they think its telling them. Its saying that Brexiteers have long since given up discussing the matter on a forum which has become a platform for a hardcore of militant remaining UKCers to shout at each other about how right they are.

> In the real world beyond these forums public opinion has barely shifted.

That’s well put. I am a Brexiteer. I am reasonably intelligent and capable of making calm, articulate arguments for leave. I’m not ‘right wing’, ‘a Daily Mail reader’, a ‘little Englander’ or any of those other euphemisms for leave supporters. I’m also not retired/old. I would vote leave again tomorrow.  

But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

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Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> A number of people have commented that the silence is telling, it is, but not what they think its telling them. Its saying that Brexiteers have long since given up discussing the matter on a forum which has become a platform for a hardcore of militant remaining UKCers to shout at each other about how right they are.

Yes, I’m aware of that and I tried with my OP subsequent posts to steer away from the standard bickering. 

> In the real world beyond these forums public opinion has barely shifted.

Yes so I understand from the polling. The OP wasn’t intended to uncover a shift away from Leave. It was more to understand whether leave voters feel that what they wanted is being delivered and where their red lines might be if different from the governments.

 

john arran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

> But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

What would it take for you to change your mind? Economic ruin (as forecast even by the government's own advisors)? The break-up of the UK (as widely predicted, with Scotland and NI being particularly likely targets)? Is there anything that would make you rethink whether the dogma of leaving is supportable in practice?

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Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> It would be possible to interpret your question as a form of baiting the Leavers, even if that wasn’t your intention nor your stated desire. Predictably a few people have leapt on the opportunity 

that certainly wasn’t my intention. Quite the opposite. 

> I think Mrs May is playing an impossible game rather successfully: forcing Leavers to betray how fractured their vision is, and how difficult it is to implement the simply articulated withdrawal from the single market. All the time, paying lip service to their objectives, while inviting them to unfold the incoherence of their vision. She is   forcing Boris and Mogg to own the difficulties and to be the obstacle to progress and you can sense their concern that the battle for hearts and minds is being lost by the relative volume in the press of the right vs the centre of the party. Ironically this would not have been possible if her position were not so weak.

i sort of agree. I’ve been trying to think through what has been successful or at least was probably the right decision at the time it was made. The appointment of Boris Johnson seems, with the passing of time, to have worked. It feels to me like his star is waning and people are realizing he’s not really fit for the top job. Where I disagree is, I don’t think the Brexit supporters have had to accept much of a concession yet. The Brexit bill was a one off and not that big in the scheme of things; the transition was just good sense and the sequencing was just a procedural question. On each point we might have done better, but none of them jeopardize the fundamental essence of leaving. 

I think we’re entering a phase where some of what will be discussed may start to look objectionable to leave supporters. Hence the post.

 

Pan Ron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

I would genuinely like to hear how you feel it is going....with no attempt at point scoring or argument from my end.

I'm a pretty staunch remainer, but honestly have given up following the whole thing now.  It was just such a disappointment.  So I only have a gut feeling for where its now headed - nothing more.

For that reason I would like to hear a view from the other side of the fence.  Not to argue, or even give my opinion, or ask leading questions in response.  Just your viewpoint would be interesting enough.

Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

> That’s well put. I am a Brexiteer. I am reasonably intelligent and capable of making calm, articulate arguments for leave. I’m not ‘right wing’, ‘a Daily Mail reader’, a ‘little Englander’ or any of those other euphemisms for leave supporters. I’m also not retired/old. I would vote leave again tomorrow.  

> But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

That’s a sad outcome. And - as a remain supporter - I fully understand why you would say that. 

 

Eric9Points - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> I think Mrs May is playing an impossible game rather successfully: forcing Leavers to betray how fractured their vision is, and how difficult it is to implement the simply articulated withdrawal from the single market. All the time, paying lip service to their objectives, while inviting them to unfold the incoherence of their vision. She is   forcing Boris and Mogg to own the difficulties and to be the obstacle to progress and you can sense their concern that the battle for hearts and minds is being lost by the relative volume in the press of the right vs the centre of the party. Ironically this would not have been possible if her position were not so weak.

Well, she has the job no one would want but judging what's being said by the faithful, she's got some way to go in winning hearts and minds.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/06/our-survey-almost-one-in-four-tory-members-want-may-to-resign-now-over-two-in-three-before-the-next-election.html

"The longer she hangs on the more damage that she does. The EU understand the political situation here, she will sign away anything to get a fake "progress" in negotiations. 
If she signs away the £40 billion in return for nothing, except a transition to nowhere, then we lose so much of our bargaining power. If she signs us up to a five year transition then we lose another £30 billion plus and kill our fishing industry as well as our party. 

We actually need a new leader to be able to reverse the damage that she has done by boxing us in on the non issue of the Irish border. 
She has gone back on everything that she has said and can't be trusted at all...it's gross incompetence on a massive scale combined with complete betrayal of democracy, the members and our voters. 

I don't know who Lord North is, who someone keeps stating that she is our worst prime minister since, but unless he was a homicidal maniac then she has to be running him close now."

etc, etc...

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RomTheBear on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

> But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

Or rather, you can't be arsed putting forward a defensible argument, but can be arsed telling us how evil we all are on UKC.

Post edited at 21:36
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pec on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> Yes, I’m aware of that and I tried with my OP subsequent posts to steer away from the standard bickering. 

I appreciate the good ontentions of your OP but as soon as the first reply it resorted to type and has mostly continued in that vein since.

Meaningful debate of Brexit ceased to be possible on here a long time ago, hence few if any leavers replying in order to be insulted by the usual suspects, which is funnily enough, a large part of the reason why remain lost in the first place.

 

1
Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Or rather, you can't be arsed putting forward a defensible argument, and blame it on everybody else.

Steady on now Rom. We’re on the brink of a productive discussion.

1
Pan Ron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

> She has gone back on everything that she has said and can't be trusted at all...it's gross incompetence on a massive scale combined with complete betrayal of democracy, the members and our voters. 

I despise May politically, and I suspect personally.  But that seems pretty harsh.  Is there anyone in the political sphere who would have the ability to smoothly negotiate an exit from such a deeply embedded union?

"Divorce" seems apt.  It'll be messy, ugly, and nasty.  But I suspect we'll end up more or less where leavers want to go.  To expect to get there without any concessions seems a little too British.

Pan Ron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Or rather, you can't be arsed putting forward a defensible argument, but can be arsed telling us how evil we all are on UKC.

You did a fine job of confirming Y Gribin's point there.

3
Skip - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

 > But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

I'd truly love to hear one, just one real positive reason to leave. I've yet to hear or read one from anyone.

I am a remainer by the way.

Post edited at 21:50
1
Trangia on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> Have I missed an option? (A realistic one!)

Would it really be unrealistic to revisit the whole concept of Brexit and propose to the nation that in view of the way the situation has evolved we should seriously be considering scrapping Brexit and remain in the EU?

Isn't democracy about the right to change our collective minds in the light of circumstances we had previously misjudged? 

To carry on down a route which is proving to be more and more disastrous is looking increasingly irresponsible.

 

1
Eric9Points - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Pan Ron:

Well yes, but often the sharpest of critics are those nearest to you. I imagine those words were written by a tory Brexiter, disappointed that their dream seems to be turning into a nightmare and worried because they think it will lose them the next election.

I expect she'll do the deal on the Europe then fall on her sword, leaving the next GE campaign to be fought by someone less damaged by Brexit. In a way I feel sorry for her.

Not much, but a bit.

 

BnB - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

> That's an interesting take on it. And it's a possibility. Maybe Mrs May is doing a virtuoso job of selectively unveiling the various fallacies prior to some coup de grace. I'm not optimistic though. What would you see at the end of this, if you're correct? The UK position has not shifted one meaningful iota since day dot, and neither has that of the EU. Meanwhile the most fundamental problems remain unaddressed. The clock is ticking, and there are no new initiatives in the works. Not long now 'til the two years is up. 

It’s a double-edged sword. The PM is deliberately doing next to nothing while it slowly dawns on all sides that they can’t have most of what they want. Remainers and the EU want the closest facsimile of membership, Leavers want free trade without strings attached. She knows that the pressure of the deadline will move events more effectively than argument and her best plan is let them make fools of themselves in the interim, the better to prevail at the death.

1
Y Gribin - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Or rather, you can't be arsed putting forward a defensible argument, but can be arsed telling us how evil we all are on UKC.

 

QED

8
Skip - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Trangia:

> Would it really be unrealistic to revisit the whole concept of Brexit and propose to the nation that in view of the way the situation has evolved we should seriously be considering scrapping Brexit and remain in the EU?

No need to propose it. The vote was advisory, not binding, therefore the government could and should scrap this nonsense.

 

2
Bob Hughes - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Skip:

> No need to propose it. The vote was advisory, not binding, therefore the government could and should scrap this nonsense.

That would be politically impossible. In my view only another referendum would give the government the mandate to reverse it.

Skip - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Politically impossible in that the government would lose the next election or for some other reason I'm unaware of?

Well tough the government are elected and paid to act for the benefit of the population and therefore should stop brexit.

1
Rob Exile Ward on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

The only plausible way I can currently see out of this mess is for 1) the government to concede that once a deal takes shape (hah!) we should have a referendum to determine whether that is in fact what we wanted, i.e. border controls, hard N Irish border, increased cost of living, inward investment only at the cost if ruinously expensive government subsidies, withdrawal from Euratom, Galileo, etc etc, 2) if a deal isn't ready enough to be able to formulate a sensible referendum question then ask the EU for an extension of, say 2 years, then 3) hope that TM, JC, NF and DD are all dead by then and the only remaining true brexiteer - WRM - has been reduced to frothing insanity by the outbreak of common sense.

1
girlymonkey - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Trangia:

Well, since the discussion is about what the government is or isn't doing well (I am sticking to these rules!), I though I'd stick to stuff that is at least vaguely on their radar. As far as I can tell, a revote is completely off their radar (for now?).

DomClarke on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

> One cannot polish a turd.

Sorry but it turns out you can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI

 

tom_in_edinburgh - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

This whole Brexit thing increasingly reminds me of the second Iraq war.  The right wing of the Republican party were determined to depose Saddam Hussein for purely ideological reasons just like the right wing of the Tories are determined to leave the EU.  Neither of them have any plan or internal consensus about what to after achieving their initial goal.   They don't think they need to think that far ahead and they don't care about the details as long as they achieve their initial goal of smashing something up that they don't like.   

The outcome of smashing up our relationship with the EU with no reasonable plan about what to do next will be a trillion dollar 15 year fiasco just like the American's bright idea of smashing up Iraq with no idea how to rebuild it.

Post edited at 22:34
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DomClarke on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> In the real world beyond these forums public opinion has barely shifted.

With the closeness of the referendum opinion barely shifting could be enough that we should remain...

Robert Durran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> This whole Brexit thing increasingly reminds me of the second Iraq war. 

Excellent analogy.

Robert Durran - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

>...........hope that TM, JC, NF and DD are all dead by then and the only remaining true brexiteer - WRM - has been reduced to frothing insanity by the outbreak of common sense.

Given the age profile of Leave voters, a fair proportion will be dead in just a few years.

 

DomClarke on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Pan Ron:

>  I suspect we'll end up more or less where leavers want to go. 

We'll end up where few will want us to have gone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXOu3U_CbpU&t=36s

from around 2 minutes to around 3 minutes on this clip puts it far better than I could.

 

baron - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Thanks for your attempt at broadening the Brexit debate.

 

davidalcock - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to DomClarke:

I had a bleak chuckle at that. Thanks.

davidalcock - on 04 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

 

I'd like to echo Baron in saying thanks Bob for writing a nuanced and non-confrontational post.

 

I don't agree with the dichotomy, and the polarisation has made a right useless mess out of any conversation that could be had on the topic. I suppose I'd describe myself as a remainer with caveats which really do not apply a great deal to the EU itself. I don't trust our own governance - not Blairites, nor the Tories... and as for Corbyn, well, I have no idea any longer. Fingers crossed in a despairing fashion.

 

I'm going to state the obvious as a remainer, and say that the problem is modern capitalism rather than the EU as an institution. Anyone who has read about Greece in detail would walk away on gut-feeling.* (I am not going to talk about other emotive aspects of a leave vote.)

 

Yet, the capitalism of our times will be with us in or out. And that aspect is in the main the contention. JRM and NF may feel the EU is too socialist (excuse me while I laugh my head off). It is the other things I am angry about: free-movement, engagement, solidarity among nations in theory, if not in practice. Collaboration in all manner of fields of science, politics, study, culture... It seems that the main narrative - and certainly the major narrative within the Conservatives in Parliament - is based on money and personal profit above all.

 

I don't see any good outcome at the moment. I believe the EU needs monetary reform, and fast. I believe the ERM and Euro was a mistake. But I don't agree with throwing everything else out. Same old cliche: reform from within.

 

As for how the government is handling it... Might I venture to say 'not very well'.

 

* Recommend Varoufakis' 'Adults in the Room' as a primer.

RomTheBear on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Pan Ron:

> You did a fine job of confirming Y Gribin's point there.

On the contrary, his point was that if he said  what he thought about the way the negotiations are going, he would be shouted down. We will not know whether he was correct or not, since he hasn't put forward what he thought. 

What I know, though, is that if he had, instead of throwing a random accusation, indeed put forward his view, I for one would have welcomed it.

 

 

Post edited at 00:48
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RomTheBear on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

> QED

Wrong.

1
RomTheBear on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> It’s a double-edged sword. The PM is deliberately doing next to nothing while it slowly dawns on all sides that they can’t have most of what they want. Remainers and the EU want the closest facsimile of membership, Leavers want free trade without strings attached. She knows that the pressure of the deadline will move events more effectively than argument and her best plan is let them make fools of themselves in the interim, the better to prevail at the death.

You are forgetting that crucial decisions for the country are not being made, which is causing long-lasting damage. It's not a game. This has real consequences for the current and future generation.

 

Post edited at 00:59
BnB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

I’m not forgetting anything. I’m answering Bob’s question with my interpretation of the politics with which TM is counteracting the Leavers inside and beyond her cabinet.

Your responses simply echo a hundred other threads. You’re better than that. We all know the negotiation is a damaging process with uncertain benefits.  I thought Bob’s OP invited a different perspective so I’m trying to give one.

You’re a bright fellow with plenty of economic knowledge. Why not apply that insight to the politics? This is a political negotiation as much as a trade deal, after all.

1
Wainers44 - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> Meaningful debate of Brexit ceased to have any purpose on here or anywhere else a long time ago.....

 

Fixed that for you. Whatever my view was when we collectively hit the eject button is as irrelevant now as arguing over who told the biggest whoppers in the campaign. 

I just wish we could, just for once as a nation, understand that complex and difficult negotiations are best carried out quietly and calmly, not against a backdrop of wild speculation in every extreme direction you can think of. Having doubts over the "team" we all picked to play the poker game for us is a bit laughable really.

When we voted out, knowingly kicking Cameron to touch in the process, who did we really think would represent us? Churchill maybe (dig him up), Alan Sugar, Branson, anyone except Boris? Maybe a fictional character? Said it before on here, we are all committed to leave, happily or otherwise and we have all earned and fully deserve the consequences.

4
john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Wainers44:

> we are all committed to leave, happily or otherwise and we have all earned and fully deserve the consequences.

... unless we were to collectively recognise the mess we're already getting into, realise it's only a matter of time before we apply to rejoin, and democratically decide to effectively bring forward that application to ... before we've actually left yet ;-)

1
RomTheBear on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> I’m not forgetting anything. I’m answering Bob’s question with my interpretation of the politics with which TM is counteracting the Leavers inside and beyond her cabinet.

> Your responses simply echo a hundred other threads. You’re better than that. We all know the negotiation is a damaging process with uncertain benefits.  I thought Bob’s OP invited a different perspective so I’m trying to give one.

 

> You’re a bright fellow with plenty of economic knowledge. Why not apply that insight to the politics? This is a political negotiation as much as a trade deal, after all.

I was talking about the politics. The damage being done by May's government is profound.

They control the legislative agenda. They could, in fact, just let parliament decide of the best course of action on Brexit.

Instead they are delaying all the key decisions in order to force through everything through a  "take it or leave it" vote at the end.

 

 

summo on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I was talking about the politics. The damage being done by May's government is profound.> They control the legislative agenda. They could, in fact, just let parliament decide of the best course of action on Brexit.

How does this differ from the unelected PM Brown deciding to sign the Lisbon treaty, with some sideroom ceremony on the quiet, where he didn't even do the deed himself and sent Milliband? 

Where was the public choice, the MPs debate etc ?

 

Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks, girlymonkey for making a strong attempt to keep us off old ground. 

Going back a few posts, my understanding is that the option of staying in the Customs Union would not necessarily do away with a physical border in Ireland. I'm at the limit of my knowledge here and need to look into again. 

girlymonkey - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob 

> Going back a few posts, my understanding is that the option of staying in the Customs Union would not necessarily do away with a physical border in Ireland. I'm at the limit of my knowledge here and need to look into again. 

That's interesting, I thought that was the big stumbling block. What would do away with it? Full single market? 

BnB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> Thanks, girlymonkey for making a strong attempt to keep us off old ground. 

> Going back a few posts, my understanding is that the option of staying in the Customs Union would not necessarily do away with a physical border in Ireland. I'm at the limit of my knowledge here and need to look into again. 

The Irish border question isn’t just a customs conundrum. There is the small matter of free (or not) movement.

1
seankenny - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to pec:

> I appreciate the good ontentions of your OP but as soon as the first reply it resorted to type and has mostly continued in that vein since.

> Meaningful debate of Brexit ceased to be possible on here a long time ago, hence few if any leavers replying in order to be insulted by the usual suspects, which is funnily enough, a large part of the reason why remain lost in the first place.

I think you’re being unfair here. Around 90% of the UKC debate I see on Brexit is well mannered, knowledgeable and considered. People are really trying hard to be civil. 

Perhaps 10% of the tone and content is less civil. Two reasons for that, in my view. Firstly, it’s very hard to get committed Leavers to answer simple questions about why we’re doing all this. There’s a disconnect, frequently between reason and gut feelings. Now we’re neck deep in the process gut feelings are next to useless. 

But aside from this exasperation, there’s also anger and fear. But hey! What did you expect? You voted for and publicly supported a process of enormous disruption that will affect some people very deeply. Complaining they are a bit rude about you now seems a little churlish. Own it, guys.

 

 

 

 

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Of all the difficulties in the negotiations the Irish border is the one that I find most annoying.

Annoying because the EU demand that member countries defend their external borders yet they put it into the divorce talks like it was for the UK to come up with a workable solution.

But even more annoying because the UK accepted the EU’s inclusion of the border on the divorce agenda.

And even more annoying that the UK government stated that there would be no hard border,without any idea of how that would work, and thus appearing to accept responsibility for what is really an EU problem or at least a shared one.

Talk about boxing yourself into a corner!

 

10
Dave Garnett - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> The Irish border question isn’t just a customs conundrum. There is the small matter of free (or not) movement.

Yes, there's a bilateral common travel area between UK and Eire that long predates the EU.  Since UK and Eire both joined the EC at the same time, there wasn't a problem and they simply became effectively a mini-Schengen zone within the EU.  Now, with UK leaving and Eire remaining in the EU there's a pretty major problem for the first time since 1923 (and WW2).  For some reason there was next to no discussion of this during the referendum campaign... 

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> ... to accept responsibility for what is really an EU problem or at least a shared one.

Remind me again whether it was the UK or the EU that signalled its intention to upset the applecart that had just recently started working well after decades of violence? And you think it should be up to the EU to write a new Good Friday agreement once the UK government has torn up the existing one?

Rob Exile Ward on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

'Annoying because the EU demand that member countries defend their external borders yet they put it into the divorce talks like it was for the UK to come up with a workable solution.'

Well it is the UK that has caused the problem, and it is one that is purely practical (and should have been foreseen). David Davis and Liam Fox can witter on all they like about technology that doesn't exist,  if there are border controls around the EU but then a gap between the non-EU UK and the EU then that will become a conduit for illegal imports; aka smuggling.

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I wasn’t criticising the EU for its border policy but merely stating a fact.

You’ll notice my criticism was aimed at the way that the UK government has allowed itself to be backed into a corner.

While it might be satisfying to see government ministers squirm the  Irish situation is looking unsolvable and could lead to the complete failure of the negotiations.

1
baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

Is the border even mentioned in the Good Friday agreement?

1
Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

Yes it is. Both explicitly, i.e.

The implementation bodies will have a clear operational remit. They will implement on an all-island and cross-border basis policies agreed in the Council.

and implicitly by reference to "Northern Ireland", i.e.

12. Any further development of these arrangements to be by agreement in the Council and with the specific endorsement of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Oireachtas, subject to the extent of the competences and responsibility of the two Administrations. 13. It is understood that the North/South Ministerial Council and the Northern Ireland Assembly are mutually inter-dependent, and that one cannot successfully function without the other.

 

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> Is the border even mentioned in the Good Friday agreement?

Not to my knowledge specifically, but there are plenty of commentators who consider the border arrangements to be critical in maintaining the agreement. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/14/brexit-threatens-good-friday-agreement-irish-pm-warns for an example.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to summo:

> How does this differ from the unelected PM Brown ...

Gordon Brown was elected with a majority of more than 18,000 prior to signing the Lisbon Treaty.

tistimetogo on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

"non issue of the Irish border." I'm not too far away from the border and to me it's a fairly major issue. As it should be to anyone living in the UK or Ireland.

johncoxmysteriously - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to the OP:

 

I’m not a leave supporter, but it seems to me the government is doing as well as could be expected, especially bearing in mind the fact that it’s presently made up of the least able group we’ve had for a long time. Leaving involves making a number of unpleasant choices which the campaign naturally ignored entirely and which most MPs think it is foolish even to be contemplating. You would therefore expect an extended period of posturing and paralysis, which is what we’re getting. No government would have done much better.

 

jcm

 

1
baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Ian W:

So the ‘hard border issue’ as it is usually mentioned alongside the Good Friday agreement isn’t really an issue then?

As your post doesn’t mention the border per se.

2
baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

I feel that the Irish PM might have his own agenda given that it is his government that has to defend the EU/Irish border with the UK.

He won’t fancy being the one to introduce a hard border.

He’d rather the UK took responsibility for that or stayed in the customs union and made the problem go away that way.

The UK government played into the EU’s hands the moment it said no hard border.

2
seankenny - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Alternative view, ie May made unnecessary mistakes, is here:

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/06/idee-fixe.html

Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> So the ‘hard border issue’ as it is usually mentioned alongside the Good Friday agreement isn’t really an issue then?

> As your post doesn’t mention the border per se.

The border is a MASSIVE issue, as the good friday agreement allows for it to be maintained, or negotiated away in accordance with the will of the NI electorate. At the time of the writing of the GFA, the hard border question wasn't on the table as both Eire and the UK were both members of the EU with no plans on the horizon to leave, or even think of leaving. How the hell do you think the NI assembly (or any other body) is supposed to be able to discuss border issues if there is any other border arrangement in place other than the current one?

I suggest you read the terms and scope of the GFA before commenting / questioning further. It may cast some light on the difficulties presented to the brexit team (bearing in mind the relationship between the tory party and the DUP, and the DUP's stance on borer issues). 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement

 

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> I feel that the Irish PM might have his own agenda given that it is his government that has to defend the EU/Irish border with the UK.

> He won’t fancy being the one to introduce a hard border.

 

I think you'll find that the DUP aren't terribly keen on a hard border either, nor are the people in both Ireland and NI.

Which raises that irritatingly persistent question once again: what is being gained by those prominent and influential Brexiters who are happy to enforce this and many other changes against the will of the people who will be affected? Brexit benefits are getting rarer than unicorn shit.

 

 

subtle on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:

> But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

That's a shame you feel that way, it really is.

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Ian W:

The border has been made a massive issue by those seeking their own agenda.

I've just read the link you posted and once again can't find any direct link to the creation of a hard border being an issue.

Feel free to copy and paste the relevant section that I'm obviously missing.

My initial point remains - that the UK government allowed itself to be boxed in by this issue.

The border problem wasn't discussed pre referendum because it shouldn't have been one - see free travel for how two countries can cooperate - but the EU put it front and centre in the negotiations.

That was the EU's choice and like I said before, and to address the OP's question, the UK's fault for allowing it to develop into a seemingly insurmountable problem.

1
baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

I agree that nobody wants a hard border however the EU's insistence on protecting its external borders means that either the UK remains in the customs union or a hard border becomes a reality.

The EU has very cleverly allowed the UK to accept responsibility for solving the border issue alone.

The UK government has foolishly accepted the border issue as theirs to solve.

You'll notice there is no blame attached to the EU in this post.

1
john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

Ok, You've convinced me: black is, in fact, white ;-)

MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> The border problem wasn't discussed pre referendum because it shouldn't have been one - see free travel for how two countries can cooperate - but the EU put it front and centre in the negotiations.

It really was: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/eu-referendum-what-do-the-rival-camps-say-about-northern-ireland-34786591.html

http://www.thedetail.tv/articles/stormont-officials-warned-of-the-dangers-of-brexit-a-year-before-the-eu-referendum

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-and-irish-border/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-36587809

Boris Johnson and Theresa May offering their opposing viewpoints there pre-vote in the last two links.

 

Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> I think you'll find that the DUP aren't terribly keen on a hard border either, nor are the people in both Ireland and NI.

The DUP's position is complex. They are strong supporters of Brexit, especially a hard Brexit. Yet they also want no customs controls on the border and have for many years been pushing for a harmonisation of tax policy across the island of Ireland - using Ireland's, not the UK's, tax policy as a template. On free movement, i think their position is, well, not clear. 

 

Trevers - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Y Gribin:  

> But I wouldn’t make leave arguments on UKC, or say how Brexit is going, because I’d be shouted down, no one would listen and no one would change their mind. 

Notice the positive reaction to Michael Hood's well thought out post above.

There was a lot of criticism in another thread recently (although I don't think it was particularly personal or abusive). But this centred around the fact that a leave-supporting poster was mostly refusing to substantiate their viewpoint, or to answer the question "what are the benefits of Brexit?".

It's been two years since the referendum, and not one politician has spelled out a real, tangible benefit of Brexit. If our minds haven't changed, it's because nobody has attempted to reach out and change them.

This is the position of many remainers. We see the risks to our economy, the very fabric of our society and our own livelihoods, with not one positive outcome. Although many of the politicians pushing for this appear to be well-placed to benefit, either financially or politically.

Post edited at 12:17
baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Thanks for the links.

Maybe a more UK wide discussion would have helped better inform people.

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Ok, You've convinced me: black is, in fact, white ;-)

Thank goodness for that!

It took long enough!  

tom_in_edinburgh - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Wainers44:

> Fixed that for you. Whatever my view was when we collectively hit the eject button is as irrelevant now as arguing over who told the biggest whoppers in the campaign. 

If you decide to do something and it turns out to be really stupid why can't you change your mind?

 

 

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Do you have to wait until it actually turns out to be stupid?

Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> The border has been made a massive issue by those seeking their own agenda.

> I've just read the link you posted and once again can't find any direct link to the creation of a hard border being an issue.

> Feel free to copy and paste the relevant section that I'm obviously missing.

> My initial point remains - that the UK government allowed itself to be boxed in by this issue.

> The border problem wasn't discussed pre referendum because it shouldn't have been one - see free travel for how two countries can cooperate - but the EU put it front and centre in the negotiations.

> That was the EU's choice and like I said before, and to address the OP's question, the UK's fault for allowing it to develop into a seemingly insurmountable problem.

You have read the GFA in its entirety and posted a reply in less than 34 mins - impressive!

There isnt a direct reference to a hard border because the GFA doesnt refer to a hard border (neither did your original question "Is the border even mentioned in the Good Friday agreement?"). The hard border issue has only been introduced by the brexit issue; as stated previously, it wasnt even on the horizon for the drafters of the GFA. But there are plenty of references to a border.

I'm in agreement with you regarding the UK's poor handling of the situation; I dont think the EU team would have been fully aware of the sensitivities surrounding this particular border; the UK team certainly were and have allowed themselves to be thoroughly wrong footed, but as others have posted, this shouldn't be a surprise as there seemed to be very little strategy in place to deal with this (or any other ) issue(s).

And to the OP, my answer, whether leaver or remainer, would have to be "pretty bloody terribly". 

 

 

Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> Thanks for the links.

> Maybe a more UK wide discussion would have helped better inform people.

It certainly would, rather than the lie - fest we got. However, a lot of people didnt appear to want to be educated or debate, and were "happy" to vote on very narrow issues, many of which were completely divorced from EU membership.

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Ian W:

I have to confess that I’d read the agreement before when the border issue came up in a previous thread.

I do feel that the EU knew how difficult it would be to establish a workable border post Brexit and did a fine job of dumping the solution on an incompetent UK government.

Your assessment of the UK government would appear to be spot on.

 

 

Ian W - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

Cheat!

 And I dont bask in any glory for my devastatingly brilliant insight into the gov'ts performance; it started badly when Davis turned up to the first meeting with literally nothing, and hasn't improved. Is there actually ANYTHING that anyone can point to and say "they did ok with that part". 

Now we have Hammond saying that they shouldn't spend any money on analysis of worst case / no deal planning until the very last minute.......constantly playing catch up, wit no sign of ever being able to become proactive in any way.

Andy Hardy on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

It's up to the UK government to find a solution to the border issue, because it's the UK government that triggered A50!

seankenny - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

> I agree that nobody wants a hard border however the EU's insistence on protecting its external borders means that either the UK remains in the customs union or a hard border becomes a reality.

I thought a major plank of the Leave campaign was control over borders, so it should come as no surprise that the EU wants the same. One key point of the EU is that within it everyone can buy goods and services that conform to the same standards. It’s an organisation run on rules. Please don’t be surprised it wants to enforce those rules.

 

> The EU has very cleverly allowed the UK to accept responsibility for solving the border issue alone.

Well it was the UK’s idea to leave so we bear the lion’s share of the responsibility no? Personal responsibility for ones actions is part of the conservative creed - apologies if you’re not a conservative...

As far as I understand it the EU has come up with suggestions but the U.K. has yet to reciprocate, or puts forward ideas the EU previously dismissed as unworkable. 

(Aside: am I the only one thinking that from 2015 to now the U.K. would have been considerably stronger and more stable under a Miliband government...?)

> The UK government has foolishly accepted the border issue as theirs to solve.

May’s red lines created the problem. See my comments re responsibility above!

> You'll notice there is no blame attached to the EU in this post.

Noted. 

BnB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Trevers:

> Notice the positive reaction to Michael Hood's well thought out post above.

> There was a lot of criticism in another thread recently (although I don't think it was particularly personal or abusive). But this centred around the fact that a leave-supporting poster was mostly refusing to substantiate their viewpoint, or to answer the question "what are the benefits of Brexit?".

> It's been two years since the referendum, and not one politician has spelled out a real, tangible benefit of Brexit. If our minds haven't changed, it's because nobody has attempted to reach out and change them.

> This is the position of many remainers. We see the risks to our economy, the very fabric of our society and our own livelihoods, with not one positive outcome. Although many of the politicians pushing for this appear to be well-placed to benefit, either financially or politically.

This is not aimed at you personally Mr T but there are elements of your post that conjure up, I'm afraid, boilerplate remainer blindness.

I'm fully in the remain camp and well aware of the risks and inevitable short term difficulties, but, as an entrepreneur, I'm inquisitive and open-minded about the opportunities. Sadly, I can't recall encountering a similar level of curiosity from either side of the debate.

Whenever anyone champions new trade opportunities, the obvious key benefit, all we hear is communal wailing over the threat to the status quo. Those fears are well-founded. But that shouldn't preclude a reasoned assessment of the possibilities.

Its very obvious to me (and better qualified commentators more's the point) that we are at an inflexion point in history where economic power shifts decisively east. Trump is isolating America with his protectionist policies while China is opening up and seeking allies with strong soft power. We have a unique opportunity during this window to position ourselves at the pivot of East-West economic development, the benefits of which ought ultimately and massively to outweigh our trading relationships with Europe, which will not, in any case, end with Brexit.

For me to return to the debate on Brexit, I'd have to see enlightened contributors troubling themselves to understand this seismic shift and the sheer enormity of the tidal wave of Chinese consumers coming on-stream today.

Forget the great wall and the paddyfields. This is what China looks like today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCPtQF730iw

Imagine a billion consumers hungry for services and products from an established and safe western democracy with strong capital protections and centuries of stability. And that's just China. India offers another 1bn. Indonesia has as many consumers as the EU. The rate at which these consumers' spending power is growing and the rate at which local corporations need western intellectual property and services is astonishing. Wake up everyone.

Instead, this post will just prompt a hundred dislikes and a number of replies dismissing this reasoned argument out of wilful ignorance and fear, or finding downsides to the argument that are as true of the EU as they would be of new trading relationships (ie immigration).

In other words, if you're not listening, you won't recognise that a counter-argument exists.

1
MG - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

Probably correct - China and the East are where power is moving to.  But...

1) What has that got to do with Brexit?

2) Are you so certain China thinks we have much to offer?  As you say, it is essentially a developed, educated country now.  I'm not sure it sees democracy as a good thing, and the stability claim is dubious given Brexit and the increasingly likelihood of the UK splitting up.

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> Imagine a billion consumers hungry for services and products from an established and safe western democracy with strong capital protections and centuries of stability. And that's just China. India offers another 1bn. Indonesia has as many consumers as the EU. The rate at which these consumers' spending power is growing and the rate at which local corporations need western intellectual property and services is astonishing. Wake up everyone.

... which, of course, means that we should be working closely with our fellow EU partners to maximise our mutual benefit in view of these changing socio-economic demographics.

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

 

> Instead, this post will just prompt a hundred dislikes and a number of replies dismissing this reasoned argument out of wilful ignorance and fear, or finding downsides to the argument that are as true of the EU as they would be of new trading relationships (ie immigration).

> In other words, if you're not listening, you won't recognise that a counter-argument exists.

 

 

its a shame you finished your post like this

 

in response: yes, there are opportunities looking east, for sure

 

but, as part of any trade deal where we gain  greater access to their markets, what will they want in return? 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39103078

 

some degree of relaxation of immigration requirements looks very likely in India's case. 

 

in China's, the relative difference in the size of the economies (China has 7 times our GDP) makes me doubt we would be in  a position to drive a hard bargain. 

 

 

Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

There certainly are opportunities in China, Indonesia, India and other far eastern economies. The counter argument is, does leaving the EU help the UK to exploit those opportunities?  

MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

That was very interesting until the bit where you called everyone ignorant, scared and thick.

1
Trevers - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

I agree with MG's points, plus a further one:

I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm an early career scientist. It's not a part of my job to be looking for opportunities to build trade with China. Brexit is adding obstacles and risks along my chosen career path and this incompetent government offers nothing to solve them but platitudes and wishful thinking. It shouldn't be upon me to pick up the pieces while I'm already trying to build a career in my chosen field.

While you've expressed the above in a positive and not an accusatory way, there is a disturbing attitude among some that businesses and individuals who fail to adapt (read: extra effort, expense, skills, broadening of scope of one's work) to Brexit deserve to fail in some sort of social economic Darwinian sense.

summo on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Gordon Brown was elected with a majority of more than 18,000 prior to signing the Lisbon Treaty.

He was never elected as PM, people talk about May and her minority etc... Brown didn't even get elected as PM, but still sent Milliband to sign. Who also couldn't get elected as PM when he tried. 

1
Rob Exile Ward on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

Of course I have considered the potential upside of Brexit for trade - but frankly, DD, LF and WRM are just plain wrong about regulations. They're not something dreamed up by EU bureaucrats, they are a set of rules that tell potential trading partners that our goods and services are fit for purpose.

As I've said before, there are NO trading partners worth having who are going to welcome us by saying 'throw away that stupid EU rule book and CE marks, just send us your cheapest, nastiest most dangerous and most environmentally damaging cack, our citizens won't know the difference...'  It isn't going to happen. We are going to have to negotiate our own rules and regulations, they will be amazingly similar to what we followed as EU members - and in the meantime a million jobs will disappear.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to summo:

Gordon Brown got elected again in 2010 with an even bigger majority.

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> It's up to the UK government to find a solution to the border issue, because it's the UK government that triggered A50!

The UK voted to leave the EU.

The EU could be said to have created the problem by their non negotiable stance on the border.

While this stance might be understandable the linking of the solution to the progress of other matters and to the final deal might scupper the negotiations.

This in no way excuses the UK government in its pathetic attempt at negotiating.

 

 

7
MG - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Trevers:

> I agree with MG's points, plus a further one:

> I'm not an entrepreneur. I'm an early career scientist. It's not a part of my job to be looking for opportunities to build trade with China. Brexit is adding obstacles and risks along my chosen career path and this incompetent government offers nothing to solve them but platitudes and wishful thinking. It shouldn't be upon me to pick up the pieces while I'm already trying to build a career in my chosen field.

Yes, and trying keep on topic, this is another major failing of the negotiations.  In their desperation over trade, the government is ignoring everything else that Brexit affects, such as you career.  The UK has some of the strongest science in the world; jeopardising this and other matters over somewhat fanciful new trade deals with Indonesia is a poor approach.

The New NickB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to summo:

Nobody has every been elected Prime Minister in a General Election, that is not how it works and you know that as well as I do.

tom_in_edinburgh - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

The thing you are missing is that for China or any of the other Asian nations Brexit is not an opportunity it is an inconvenience.  It is a hassle to deal with the UK one to one instead of make one deal with a block of 27 nations.   The UK is attractive to Japanese and Chinese investors because it is English speaking, relatively liberal economy and within the EU.

These countries are going to put far more effort into doing trade deals with the EU than with the UK, the EU will get better deals and faster deals than the UK because the Chinese think big and long term.   It isn't just about customs and free movement it is about harmonised regulations and standards within the single market which make exporters life easier.   It is pretty clear what China is thinking long term from the trillion dollars they are spending on the one belt one road initiative.

I've sold electronically delivered products to the US, EU, China and Malaysia.   The EU provided the trade agreements under which those sales were made.  Since all but Malaysia didn't involve paying any duties or taxes over those applicable to a local company I don't see how Mr Fox is going to do any better.

However, I can see how things could get a whole lot worse because of the content rules on exports.  At the moment if a company has plants and suppliers spread across the UK and Europe then the final product is 100% EU content when it is exported to (e.g.) China under an EU-China trade agreement.  If we leave the EU customs union the part of the product made in the UK is not EU content.  If the total EU content on the final product falls below a threshold the product doesn't qualify under the EU trade agreement.   There will be companies with no choice but to move manufacturing or suppliers outside the UK so as to be able to export their final product from the EU to third countries under an EU trade agreement.

The New NickB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I have mentioned this before, but a £50m deal we had lined up with Chinese investors fell apart after the Brexit referendum, because they decided the risks around access to European markets where too high.

wercat on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> If you decide to do something and it turns out to be really stupid why can't you change your mind?


If I have a go at a route and at some point later it looks as if it'll kill or cripple me then I'll take an escape route.

summo on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Gordon Brown got elected again in 2010 with an even bigger majority.

As an mp not PM. He signed the UK up deeper into eu when he inherited the job as PM. He was never elected as PM, never led the party on a given manifesto etc.. 

1
BnB - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to several of you:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's clear I've captured some attention by accusing an unidentified portion of the UKC remainer majority as being wilfully ignorant. Sorry if that was a poor choice of words. However, it's important that you understand that every single Brexit thread contains the observation that no one is advancing good arguments in its favour. And I maintain that this claim is made in wilful denial of the perfectly good case made by a number of politicians and several UKC contributors, repeatedly and ad nauseam, that membership of the the EU has prevented us making trade deals to suit the UK's particular mix of industries and to a timescale that is expedient in the light of the incredible opportunities unfolding in Asia today. The evidence for the obstructive nature of EU membership is plain to see in the absence of a free trade deal between the EU (and hence the UK) and China (or India etc etc) today. It's as plain as the enormous opportunity that I tried to paint in my first post. And yet, time and again, we hear that no one has made an argument in favour of Brexit.

I'm well aware of the counter arguments. I'm an effing Remainer for goodness sakes. But the collapse of debate here on UKC and the reason for my protracted absence from anything Brexit-related lies in the conservatism manifested in several of the replies to my post which go along the lines of "thank you for making an effort BnB but here are several arguments which show how I don't really want to engage with your vision". There were interesting and heartfelt replies as well, highly relevant to certain circumstances. But those replies, however valid, were not particularly relevant the circumstances I laid out. I'm not here to develop the case. I merely sought to put to bed the canard that there are no arguments in favour of Brexit. You don't have to agree with the thrust of the argument to recognise its validity. And If I've succeeded in that aim, then my work is done. If you seriously don't believe there's a glimmer of an argument, then the dislike button awaits your scornful caress ;-)

5
summo on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

> Nobody has every been elected Prime Minister in a General Election, that is not how it works and you know that as well as I do.

Of course. 

My point is he never led Labour with a manifesto and won. Yet still took the UK deeper into the eu. There was no parliamentary debate, vote or so called peoples choice...  Neither did Milliband who was given the job of signing up on a coffee break between other eu meetings. 

Post edited at 16:37
5
Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> every single Brexit thread contains the observation that no one is advancing good arguments in its favour. And I maintain that this claim is made in wilful denial of the perfectly good case made by a number of politicians and several UKC contributors, repeatedly and ad nauseam, that membership of the the EU has prevented us making trade deals to suit the UK's particular mix of industries and to a timescale that is expedient in the light of the incredible opportunities unfolding in Asia today. 

Yes I agree with your point about the positive arguments for Brexit - they have been made and don't take much finding (including free trade and others). They may not be arguments which remain supporters find convincing, but that's a different point. Similarly, there are no benefits to brexit which can't be counter-argued; the same is true for the arguments against Brexit. This is normal for such a complex issue.  

Andy Hardy on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to baron:

The EU has a policy of having very strong external borders, to compensate for very weak internal ones. We voted to put ourselves on the outside, so it shouldn't have come as a surprise. The biggest mistake May made was triggering A50 before doing any planning

Post edited at 17:12
neilh - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

As somebody who sells into both China and India I think that case is not very clear cut either way on being in or out. 

Both countries are protectionist  . China has set out its clear cut plan to be ahead of the game in 2025. And it would be great to think that this did not include financial services etcbut give it time.

India struggles and has so many issues it’s unreal. Getting paid is one of your issues as an exporter.

I agree there are opportunities but the amount of trade will be limited to niche high value sectors not employing a lot of people back in the uk compared with E.U. and USA .

Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to neilh:

> India struggles and has so many issues it’s unreal. Getting paid is one of your issues as an exporter.

I know this is just one example but this strikes me as an ideal opportunity for a free trade agreement with a robust dispute resolution mechanism. 

 

baron - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Andy Hardy:

The EU stance on its borders was, as you say, very well known.

It is all the more annoying, therefore, that the UK government allowed itself to be outmanoeuvred and put on the back foot so easily.

 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to summo:

Yeah, that's not how British parliamentary democracy works.

Post edited at 17:36
neilh - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Let us live in the real commercial world , not some airey fairy scheme contrived by govt. A disputes mechanism just means you do not get paid. 

Post edited at 17:45
Bob Hughes - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to neilh:

ha!  

MG - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> The evidence for the obstructive nature of EU membership is plain to see in the absence of a free trade deal between the EU (and hence the UK) and China (or India etc etc) today. It's as plain as the enormous opportunity that I tried to paint in my first post. And yet, time and again, we hear that no one has made an argument in favour of Brexit.

> I'm well aware of the counter arguments. I'm an effing Remainer for goodness sakes. But the collapse of debate here on UKC and the reason for my protracted absence from anything Brexit-related lies in the conservatism manifested in several of the replies to my post

 

To be honest your somewhat smug posting style of these topics is a little irritating - believe it or not, others are aware that China and India are developing rapidly and that power and money is moving.

Where do you detect conservatism?   People mainly seem to be pointing out that Brexit is in no way such an obvious positive as you claim for trade with these countries, indeed it's quite possibly a negative thing. Nor is it obvious that the EU is the stumbling block (see the UK's recent attempts with India).   So, at best, trade with the East is a highly dubious point, not the knock-down benefit you are making it out to be.

 

 

1
Wainers44 - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> If you decide to do something and it turns out to be really stupid why can't you change your mind?

With some major financial decisions life isn't that simple. Leaving the EU is the single daftest thing the UK has ever done, but done it is, and the millions....billions already spent in terms of loss of business confidence, slow down of growth and reduction of investment aren't recovered by a quick turnaround now. I wish they were.

john arran - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to Wainers44:

> Leaving the EU is the single daftest thing the UK has ever done, but done it is

The only thing that has been done is a signalling of the intention to leave. Leaving hasn't happened and doesn't need to happen. If enough people support a People's Vote on the final terms as agreed, to determine whether the people of the UK are happy that the outcome is what they were hoping for when they voted in 2016, we will be able to see whether there really is still support for Brexit or whether democracy in the UK will have chosen a different path now that more flesh is on the bones of the Brexit deal. If the people of the UK so choose, all indications are that A50 can be retracted.

 

1
birdie num num - on 05 Jun 2018
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> I’m not a leave supporter, but it seems to me the government is doing as well as could be expected..

It's unusual for me to agree with certain parts of what you say... I feel weird and need an aspirin.

The OP, it seems to me is a loaded question, brimming with the negativity of a remainers view. Somebody has to take the the will of the people, the poisoned chalice that was Brexit forward to some conclusion.

The main culprits have all shimmied off the scene, like cockroaches behind musty wallpaper.

4
tom_in_edinburgh - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

>The evidence for the obstructive nature of EU membership is plain to see in the absence of a free trade deal between the EU (and hence the UK) and China (or India etc etc) today.

The things that currently stop the EU doing a comprehensive tariff free trade deal with China will stop the UK doing it too (unless the decision is made by the most extreme free-market ideologues).  China wants exchange controls.  China wants to protect its financial services companies.  China wants to do all kinds of state aid to favoured industries.  China wants to have lower environmental, safety and labour protection standards.   China's internal market is full of copied products sold at far below the cost of the original and medicines and foodstuffs of dubious safety.   All of these things give Chinese imports a cost advantage over products made in the UK or EU and the response is customs checks and tariffs.

Rob Exile Ward on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to birdie num num:

Ian Duncan Smith hasn't shimmied anywhere, sadly. According to him on R4 this morning it's all the fault of the French.

wercat on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to wercat:

Oh dear ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44381294

 

perhaps JC reads this forum, better be careful

Post edited at 18:18
George Ormerod - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to MG:

I don't know why people think we will do better outside the EU with trade - take India for example - Germany exports 10.6 Bn Euros to India, we aren't even next highest, we're behind Belgium and France, and 6Bn Euros behind the Germans.  Do we think an Empire 2.0 free trade deal with our Commonwealth friend will increase exports by 2 and a half times?

George Ormerod - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> I know this is just one example but this strikes me as an ideal opportunity for a free trade agreement with a robust dispute resolution mechanism. 

Sorry, but free trade dispute resolution processes have nothing to do with getting payment for goods or services from customers.  They are about disputing barriers to trade at a national level (and result in a surrender of sovereignty to the dispute resolution tribunal - which includes the WTO one if Brexit comes to that).

George Ormerod - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to BnB:

> It's as plain as the enormous opportunity that I tried to paint in my first post. And yet, time and again, we hear that no one has made an argument in favour of Brexit.

I like your optimism.  Rather than there being no arguments in favor of Brexit, it would be fairer to say that there are no evidence based ones that stand up to scrutiny, or come anywhere close to offsetting the massive down side.

Also, before we worry about trade deals, we could try supporting exporters as well as our EU competitors who do it so much better - as we can see from their far superior export values.  The current 'Exportingisgreat' is embarrassingly piss-poor.

Anyway, I must get back to exporting, before Trump makes NAFTA, and possibly the WTO, collapse.

 

Bob Hughes - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to George Ormerod:

thnaks for the correction

Bob Hughes - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to birdie num num:

> The OP, it seems to me is a loaded question 

Depends what you mean by loaded. I have my own opinion, which i didn't want to share in the OP to avoid influencing the further comments. But the OP wasn't intended as a trap. 

Now seems like a good time to share my view: 

What I think the government got right

1. I think calling the early election was the right choice at the time. If May had strengthened her majority, or even just kept the same majority (neither of which seemed unrealistic at the time) she would have obtained a mandate for her version of Brexit, and would have been in a much stronger position to negotiate with her party and open up the difficult discussions she needed to earlier on.

2. Putting Boris in a high-profile job is – right now – looking like a smart move. (Caveat: things change so quickly in politics these days that this may change.) 

3. David Cameron had to leave after the vote but he probably left too soon which just added to the febrile atmosphere.

4. There’s a lot of merit in JCM’s comment that there are doing pretty well given the circumstances.

5. Like her or loathe her - and I don't particularly like her - you have to admire Theresa May's sticking power. Many others would have quit long ago. 

What I think the government got wrong

1. Fighting – and losing – the Gina Millar case was daft and showed that they had misjudged the feeling among MPs.

2. Triggering article 50 too soon, before they had a plan or any real understanding of what the country, or the cabinet, wanted from Brexit. The timing of Art 50 gave the UK gov a lot of leverage over the EU who was desperate to get discussions wrapped up before the next round of budget discussions. It would at least have been worth a try to force a concession on sequencing.

3. It’s not clear how May came up with the red lines but they have proved to be a rod for her back, limiting her scope for manoeuvre. I feel like these should have been thought through more thoroughly.

4. Like I said above, I think calling the election was the right choice at the time. The mistake was to deploy the worst political campaign in the history of political campaigns.

5. Not being honest with the public about the trade-offs which will be necessary. Baron’s example of frictionless border in Ireland is one example.

<b>What happens next</b>

One reason for the OP is that I think the government may be trying to pull away from the hard brexit agenda. So far the conessions have been cosmetic; if i were a Brexit supporter i would feel pretty ok about where we are right now. Hence my question asking which concessions would really get Brexit supporters backs up?

There have been two proposals recently - one from Open Europe and one from Ivan Rogers - suggesting that a livable outcome could be: 

Stay in the Single Market for goods. This would be accepting paying an annual fee to the EU, common tariffs, EU regulation and jurisdiction of the ECJ on goods, in return for barrier-free access to EU goods markets. Open Europe proposes a "brake" on the adoption of EU regulation in this area similar to the Swiss model - which is that EU regulation would not be applied automatically but would need to be regulated by the UK government, meaning we could reject parts of it but that would probably come with a penalty from the EU. Ivan Rogers proposes a further carve out for agriculture. 

Leave the Single Market for services. This would mean we could negotiate our own services agreements and, crucially, have an argument to limit free movement. The EU market for services has never really worked properly and only about 35% of UK services exports go to the EU. 

This may seem like cherry picking to the EU but it is based on the Swiss / Ukraine models so may be digestible. 

I wonder whether that kind of a model could be something that Brexit supporters could live with. 

cb294 - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to George Ormerod:

It is even worse from the UK point of view: The EU will certainly conclude its free trade deal quite soon after Brexit is official. The last round of negotiations was almost concluded but got bogged down because India insisted on easier access of their workers into the EU job market, which the UK then blocked (which, to be fair, does to an extent make sense from the UK POV).

The rEU is much less attractive for Indians outside highly skilled jobs (e.g. in IT and engineering), so these countries can more easily concede on this point.

What chance India pointing at the terms of the rEU agreement during any subsequent bilateral negotiations with the UK?

CB

Ian W - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> What I think the government got right

> 1. I think calling the early election was the right choice at the time. If May had strengthened her majority, or even just kept the same majority (neither of which seemed unrealistic at the time) she would have obtained a mandate for her version of Brexit, and would have been in a much stronger position to negotiate with her party and open up the difficult discussions she needed to earlier on.

> 2. Putting Boris in a high-profile job is – right now – looking like a smart move. (Caveat: things change so quickly in politics these days that this may change.) 

> 3. David Cameron had to leave after the vote but he probably left too soon which just added to the febrile atmosphere.

> 4. There’s a lot of merit in JCM’s comment that there are doing pretty well given the circumstances.

> 5. Like her or loathe her - and I don't particularly like her - you have to admire Theresa May's sticking power. Many others would have quit long ago. 

 

Cherry picking this part of your post; it is noticeable that, with the exception of point 1, the things you think the government got right have nothing directly to do with Brexit, but are concerned with how they have played the "keeping in power" game. 

I would argue with number 4 - whilst brexit is the poisoned chalice to end all poisoned chalices politically, with both main parties still being horribly split on the issue 2 years down the line, I would say the lack of planning for various scenarios at all levels and throughout the campaign (and even now) has more than helped to create those circumstances.

 

Bob Hughes - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> In reply to Bob 

> That's interesting, I thought that was the big stumbling block. What would do away with it? Full single market? 

Yes, including free movement. In terms of goods, borders borders are needed to make sure (a) any relevant tariffs are applied and (b) regulations are followed. Then they also control the movement of people.  

Bob Hughes - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Ian W:

> Cherry picking this part of your post; it is noticeable that, with the exception of point 1, the things you think the government got right have nothing directly to do with Brexit, but are concerned with how they have played the "keeping in power" game. 

Yes and no. I think you can't separate the two. I'm not pursuaded that Labour or Boris Johnson would do a significantly better job than a Theresa-led Tory party so succumbing to to a leadership or election challenge would be an unnecessary waste of time. 

> I would argue with number 4 - whilst brexit is the poisoned chalice to end all poisoned chalices politically, with both main parties still being horribly split on the issue 2 years down the line, I would say the lack of planning for various scenarios at all levels and throughout the campaign (and even now) has more than helped to create those circumstances.

Certainly many of the circumstances that they are dealing with were brought on by themselves. That said, its easy to be wise after the event. It would have been better to have had the tough discussions in the cabinet sooner, or to have waited and conducted more analysis before triggering article 50 but at the time, in the heat of the moment,  when Brexiteers and remainers were genuinely plotting to overthrow May and / or derail TMay, she didn't have the luxury of doing that. A better politician (dare i say it, Tony Blair) would have bought themselves more time by consolidating their grip on the party and / or the public (which is why the early election was such a lost opportunity). Even Corybn has achieved that (although he had the luxury of not simultaneously negotiating Brexit).  

1
Ian W - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

> Yes and no. I think you can't separate the two. I'm not pursuaded that Labour or Boris Johnson would do a significantly better job than a Theresa-led Tory party so succumbing to to a leadership or election challenge would be an unnecessary waste of time. 

Fair point; it is by a long way the biggest issue for politicians at the moment, so it will inevitably dominate all their thoughts. I absolutely agree that neither a Tory govt led by anyone else, or the current labour lot would do noticeably better, because of the split in both parties on the issue. I think the only one on eith er side who could have led decently would be William Hague (dont laugh at the back, he was really good as foreign sec after a disasterous leadership), and Andy Burnham for Labour. But neither are options any more........

> Certainly many of the circumstances that they are dealing with were brought on by themselves. That said, its easy to be wise after the event. It would have been better to have had the tough discussions in the cabinet sooner, or to have waited and conducted more analysis before triggering article 50 but at the time, in the heat of the moment,  when Brexiteers and remainers were genuinely plotting to overthrow May and / or derail TMay, she didn't have the luxury of doing that. A better politician (dare i say it, Tony Blair) would have bought themselves more time by consolidating their grip on the party and / or the public (which is why the early election was such a lost opportunity). Even Corybn has achieved that (although he had the luxury of not simultaneously negotiating Brexit).  

It is easy to be wise after the event, but how on earth they were so badly prepared is beyond me. 7P's and all that.......

I do think that things are being made more difficult because of the disloyal chancers such as Boris and Davis, who should be supporting (rather like Gove, who is obviously lining himself up for a leadership bid at some stage, but at least he isnt' undermining TM at every turn). Agree that the election was a massive lost opportunity for them, which as has been said above was the worst campaign in history, and the resulting reliance on thr DUP is to my mind such a horrendous sign of contemptuous desperation.........

 

tom_in_edinburgh - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Boris Johnson's off-the-record views on how the government is doing on Brexit:

Trump could do it better   and

“You’ve got to face the fact there may now be a meltdown. OK? I don’t want anybody to panic during the meltdown.  No panic. Pro bono publico, no bloody panic. It’s going to be all right in the end.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-recording-trump-brexit-dinner-party-tory-theresa-may-a8388686.html

Don't panic Captain Mainwaring!

 

 

Rob Exile Ward on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Anyone who thinks Johnsons incontinent blustering is supposed to be off-record has missed how  devious, destructive and ambitious the little sh*t is.

Ian W - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Even if Boris believed that his private views would be kept private, isn't it illuminating to find out hat his real personal views are........

That is if you can actually believe anything he says at any time for any audience........

Tringa on 12 Jun 2018
In reply to Bob Hughes:

A little off topic but related -

"Brexit: The Battle for Britain"  is worth watching, if it is available on catchup. It was presented by Laura Kuenssberg and was on London Live last night.

Some interesting comments, such as, the Remain campaign had, for months, very little support from the Labour party and some one from the Leave Campaign was still saying the slogan on the bus - "We send the EU £350 million a week", was correct.

 

Dave

 


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