UKC

/ McDonnell for PM

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MG - on 08 Sep 2018

Well perhaps not, but he has at least proposed a policy of substance, rather than never ending internal bickering a la Corbyn. I can see some sense in this 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/08/john-mcdonnell-labour-proposal-workers-ownership-funds

8
john arran - on 08 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

Some reasonable ideas, certainly. The biggest problem I have with that article is the focus on gaining power, rather than on trying to ensure the disaster capitalists haven't left the country destitute by the time any such power comes their way.

balmybaldwin - on 08 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

Have you not seen his "don't call our members Dogs" speech yet?

He's just as divisive as Corbyn et al

2
Eric9Points - on 08 Sep 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

I haven't seen the speech but read the BBC report. He's spot on.

There are MPs throwing themselves in front of any tv camera they can find to slag off their own party. Ordinary members can be given the benefit of the doubt for behaving like tw*ts but MPs should know better. Those that have been slagging off their own party are now facing the wrath of the members in their own constituencies.

Is it at all surprising that folk that spend their spare time sticking leaflets through letter boxes and knocking on doors in the hope of putting a Labour government in power at the next GE get a bit pissed off with those elected representatives who seem by their words and deeds to be aiming for the exact opposite?

2
Bob Kemp - on 08 Sep 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

You might also mention all those Trumpton leftists who clog up the Twitter feeds and BTL comments with 'red Tory', 'Blairite scum' and all the rest of the divisive rubbish. If they were serious about being elected they'd cut that crap. Both sides as bad as each other. 

2
Ex Poster 666 on 08 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

Chuka could've been leader. No, too busy with his family.
You're either committed or not.  No point bleating now!

6
TobyA on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

But it seems most of "activists" who took part in the no confidence votes weren't in the party three years ago, so if they have been out posting leaflets etc. it hasn't been for that long.

 

2
FactorXXX - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

> I haven't seen the speech but read the BBC report. He's spot on.
> There are MPs throwing themselves in front of any tv camera they can find to slag off their own party. Ordinary members can be given the benefit of the doubt for behaving like tw*ts but MPs should know better. Those that have been slagging off their own party are now facing the wrath of the members in their own constituencies.
> Is it at all surprising that folk that spend their spare time sticking leaflets through letter boxes and knocking on doors in the hope of putting a Labour government in power at the next GE get a bit pissed off with those elected representatives who seem by their words and deeds to be aiming for the exact opposite?

No room for people in the Labour party that don't 'Toe the Line' then?
I'm rather thinking that Blair and Umunna have a point...

 

2
Moley on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to FactorXXX:

Didn't Corbyn spend many years sat on the back benches not always toeing the party line? Perhaps I'm mistaken but the impression I have of his past.

1
Eric9Points - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to FactorXXX:

I think I said more or less the opposite as did McDonnell.

It is not dissent that is the issue it is public dissent.

Do you have any idea why these MPs were censured, other than hearing the reasons they themselves gave to waiting reporters?

If you're wondering, by the way, I don't want Corbyn running the Labour party either but neither do I want some of its elected representatives running round looking for every opportunity to kick their own party in the balls.

neilh - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

There are some interesting ideas being thrown around by both parties on what to do about capitalism. Whether they gain traction will be interesting. 

At least JMCD is trying to gain power. Just he has a weak leader.rather like the Tories. 

Both JC and TM are shockingly bad and a poor reflection of political life in the UK

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> You might also mention all those Trumpton leftists who clog up the Twitter feeds and BTL comments with 'red Tory', 'Blairite scum' and all the rest of the divisive rubbish. If they were serious about being elected they'd cut that crap. Both sides as bad as each other. 

Which left wing Labour MPs have been doing that? If you're comparing centrist/right-for-Labour MPs slagging off their own party with some left wing Labour supporters I'd say that's hardly a fair comparison.

MG - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Since they have power, they don't really need to but the silence from them on all this is telling. Maybe they are right and there is a majority in the Corbynite vote so they don't need moderate social democrat types any more, particularly given the state of the Tories. Long term however that is a very divisive approach to politics, and society. 

1
MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

I'd say that the majority of the PLP labelled as hard left would be recognised as moderate social democrats in many European countries. I also think that MPs doing a good job have nothing to worry about.

2
Bob Kemp - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Chris Williamson for one. Apparently people on the right of the Labour Party are his 'political enemies'. I thought it was supposed to be the Conservative Party and allies. 

Bob Kemp - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Who defines a 'good job'? 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Chris Williamson for one. Apparently people on the right of the Labour Party are his 'political enemies'. I thought it was supposed to be the Conservative Party and allies. 

Not wanting to sound childish, but did he start it? The knives have been out for Corbyn from day one from certain members on the right of the party.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Who defines a 'good job'? 

Local members.

wbo - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:no the electorate.  History has shown that local parties can be easily hijacked.

 

deepsoup - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to wbo:

If a local branch of a political party is 'hijacked' by people joining up, paying their subs, going along to meetings and voting - isn't that just what we used to call 'democracy'?

summo on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Not wanting to sound childish, but did he start it? The knives have been out for Corbyn from day one from certain members on the right of the party.

Same as Corbyn for the past few decades where he has consistently voted against the party leadership on literally dozens of parliamentary motions, but when other Labour MPs do it to him, it's suddenly not so funny. 

MG - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to deepsoup:

Not really. At least in the UK, political parties have traditionally been broad groupings, not narrow personality cults seeking to alienate many former members and supporters. 

2
MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

We bemoan people not engaging in politics but then they do and we all go "Not like that!".

MG - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Well yes! It's not healthy. 

1
wbo - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to deepsoup:it strains the limits of democracy, particularly in an effectively two party system.  Less so in a PR system.

The real shame beng in this casr that it means Labour are far more unlikely to win an election or even act as an effective opposition.

 

oldbloke - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to MG:

Whether you wear a blue or red rosette, it seems open confrontation within parties is now normal.  Until there's an election it is just a soap operatic sideshow.

On his proposals for workers ownership funds, it would require a different mindset from workers.  Longer term thinking mainly.  Our staff enjoy pretty good annual bonus potential.  Forget that if there are ownership funds as they'd have to understand why no dividend for 2 years as we wanted to do X, Y, Z.  There would have to be worker representatives on the board and it is amazing how many people want the authority until you tell them the responsibility that goes with it.  It could work, but it wouldn't require a change of attitude from the owners only.

neilh - on 09 Sep 2018
In reply to oldbloke:

I see a lot of employee owned businesses in the USA. Fairly common model,not unusual. 

If they were the answer then they would be everywhere. Fundamental issue is when there is a crises there becomes a clash between the employees and the business objectives. So no decisions ever get made leading to failures. 

Some of the ideas for workers reps on boards are good. But they will never solve the issues. 


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