UKC

Had the Scottish one for a few weeks and just got the English one. Both OK but only one works at once. Could they really not produce just one that works nationwide, or even wider?

(I see Gibraltar has a separate one too...)

Just downloaded.

It's not like anyone actually lives on the other side of the border to where they work....  Better not let Nicola know, you will be asking for dual citizenship next. 

Are they NHS apps or are they made by some dodgy mate of a Tory MP and will sell my phone number and anything else it can strip from the phone to scam callers?

The Scottish app is based on open source code developed in Ireland and used in several other countries.   Cummings and his 'data scientist' mates don't belong anywhere near a privacy sensitive app like this, SNP were right to go their own way.

https://www.digitalhealth.net/2020/09/scotland-launches-uks-second-covid-19...

Maybe we should all just get the Scottish app? 

Didn't they try? In that Cummings outsourced it to his mates, and they failed?

There wasn't much sense in waiting for them after that, I'm glad we got on with making our own.

To be honest, I'm using the Scottish one because I've some idea how it works, and pretty confident it doesn't leave me very open to data mining mining by a bunch of shady operators. I don't have that confidence about the English one, and I'm not at all sure I'd install it.

Yes, I've got that one too.  It doesn't alert anyone if I am in contact with someone infected in England or vice versa.  Also it can't run if I have the English one running, and vice versa.  How likely am I am other to remember when we go from England to Scotland to change apps?  It's nonsense. 

I know you would simple build a Trump style wall on the border with mass prisons for those crossing but given that is not going to happen, having one app would be far preferable and more effective 

Ideally. We should have probably all taken the German one, really.

But I suppose there might be complications around the different test systems and health authorities - entering positive test codes, and getting instructions if you're to isolate. That may be true in the UK, too.

Not insurmountable, but might have taken a while and time was of the essence; it's better to have one up and running that at least works some of the time.

Well yes, and the way to achieve a single app is for the English government to discuss it with the Scottish government and other EU governments and select a reputable commercial supplier or fund a reputable open source project.

If the Tories make a unilateral decision and hand the contract to one of their scummy mates with a track record of egregious misuse of private data then they can f*ck off.

Its part of the Apple/Google design that each "government" owns an area. They can group together if they want but it means any app for a specific location will be written with the relevant laws in mind and also to plug into the rest of the infrastructure eg requesting tests and so on.

what is an app?

I didn't realise they couldn't be run simultaneously. That's stupid.

Why not just have one for the whole world?

The source code is public so security researchers should be able to hold them to account. 

https://github.com/nhsx

I was going to say just the EU, but you’ve upped the ante somewhat! 

Because you then need to know who to alert and what other things to wrap around it.

The logistics of making and implementing it would result in massive delays, and the benefits would be limited due to most contacts being between people from the same country.

And that's before even thinking about privacy concerns and civil liberties around such a massive database of who's spent time with who.

Surely any app is pointless until the testing system has super quick turnaround times. If it takes a couple of days to get a test and a few days till the result, the app tells you your with someone who's negative and you carry on your merry way spreading it.

There's now a quicker way of testing by pooling. If you pool 5 samples and it's negative, they're all negative. You've done 1 test. If it's positive you check the 5, but as there's more negatives, you could get numerous results out quicker. If you batched single work/school/uni groups, you could isolate the group quickly prior to knowing the exact individual. Guess what, the NHS has'nt checked the process out yet. 

I just want to use it as I come into contact with Covid patients on a regular basis.

Maybe I could get the whole town to Lockdown?

Ah yes the NHS. Got to admire the tories sticking the NHS label everywhere whilst its more likely to be a bunch of private sector shysters whose primary skills are writing contracts and keeping politicians onside.

Plus, as per this thread, it seems a tad more complex than you suggest.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/pool_testing-725365

Healthcare staff here have been advised to keep it disabled while at work, and especially while using PPE during contact with patients.

Otherwise, as you say, it could produce some interesting results!

There's no way everyone's going to remember to do that all of the time, though...

I'd like to know this too, is this not a different app to the one scummings mates failed to build (and assumably failed to pay back the cash they were given)?

Its uses the google/apple as the base. So is a lot better than the original attempt. Whether or not that is sufficient is a different question. After all although the code is there in github it still needs faith its the same which is deployed and, sadly, with cummings and pals I am not sure I would go that far.

And if I catch the virus while using my laughable PPE, shouldn't those I come into contact with have a fighting chance of being warned, rather than me turning my app off?

To be fair, there should be a record of patients you've seen that can be used by contact tracing to alert them, the app is more useful for contact where it's hard or impossible to trace who you've been next to, e.g. on public transport or in the pub.

Whether contact tracing is working well enough to do this may be another matter.

Hadn't seen that, thanks. But if you were serious about testing, don't you look at all methods, rather than not try. I still think an app relies on the info put in, it needs improving. Poor testing and potentially poor app uptake = err, not good.

The simple answer to that is,no.

'Ideally. We should have probably all taken the German one, really.'

From talking to someone in Germany a month ago each of their states developed there own and they were struggling to get them to communicate.

In the uk apparently there is a lot of people who aren't self isolating when told to do so. I think concentrating on increasing human contact tracers is more important. Ideally local authority ones and not people who ring on random numbers.

Ha, well maybe they should all have taken the German one, then!

I agree that the human contact tracers are more important, the app just offers a little bit extra.

but aren’t folk supposed to self isolate if arranging a test/waiting for results?

I'm not sure about the UK app, but the Scottish one doesn't tell you anything unless someone you've been with tests positive and submits their result to it, and it sees that your device has been in proximity with theirs for long enough for it to count as 'prolonged close contact'.

At that point, it'll tell you to isolate for two weeks, and get a test if you develop symptoms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54071100

That's all it does (apart from providing information). It's far from a complete solution, but could still prove a useful tool.

I won't be downloading any contact tracing app.

Whilst I am more than happy to follow the government mandated restrictions I have zero trust in the government when it comes to anything IT related.

Demonic Cumstain and Dido "data hack" Harding are not individuals that deserve trust. Although separate to the tracing app it's clear the government can and will override safeguards in order for their financial backers to make a quick buck at our expense.

Edited for typo.

You don't put any information into it, beyond the first half of your postcode. If you trust google etc. permissions, which presumably you do if you have a smartphone, then I don't think there is a problem.

It certainly seems better than the original in-house app trialled on the Isle of Wight.

But, and this is the crux of the matter for me, trust has to be earned. The avalanche of BS that's been pushed recently (world beating response, DC didn't break lockdown rules etc) despite clearly contradictory information being available does not inspire confidence. 

Like I said, I'm happy to follow the rules, but I am suspicious of this current governments motives.

True, your comment "supposed to" could have some implication. And the app only tells you if the person in contact with is positive. If they're waiting, there's a lag. On the NHS website it doesn't yet say you can have a swab if the app says you've been in contact, but your asymptomatic. Then it has further implications for business etc while you isolate.

Install any. They are cross compatible.

No they aren't, which is why I posted.

(I know you want to say "I am right and you are wrong" for 50 posts.  Don't bother).

Yesterday I updated Android on my phone. I suspect most Android users, maybe two billion people are doing the same about now.

A piece of code could be written with options that could be switched on and off for different countries.

I imagine you could have separate databases in each country if necessary. Certainly sending a text to a foreigner isn't really a big deal.

Given there have probably been thousands of people spread around the world writing much the same bits of code for national apps that are the same but different if they'd all been set to work on the same thing they well have produced something better, faster.

And how long has that version of Android been in development?

OK, but why would it matter whether they were using the same app, then?

I think that's pretty much what happened for a lot of countries, including Scotland, isn't it? Not just one version, but there are several chunks of open source now that can be picked up and modified to suit. I'm not sure about the new "UK" one, but the old one wasn't like that as they wanted it to be a World Beating British App, full of Great Britishness (and fully billable to their mates).

Whatever.

I imagine there have been over a hundred teams across the world working on much the same thing.

Seems a ridiculous duplication of effort to me.

The core functionality is shared between Apple and Google (mostly with some country as exceptions including England for its first attempt when they decided to help cummings masturbate over data)

The teams are still needed to say what should happen for each country eg do you want to say "go to this test site NOW" or just say "it would be good for you to have a test but we left it to a failed telecoms boss so tough luck".

At the minimum you would need the BAs to write the requirements and send them to Apple/Google to write but then you get loads of delays about pushing the next update.

Different countries and regions have different laws regarding data and access, different health authorities doing the testing, different language needs, and different ways of persuading their population to use it.

It makes sense to have a core plugin that does the actual checking for proximity and logging a unique identity for a device - and that did happen, Googe and Apple provided these (but the UK government didn't want to use that for theirs!)

The layer above that, that interfaces with the user, will have similarities in all places, and it makes sense to collaborate on that to some extent. Again, this happened - but not just once, there have been several sets of collaborative or open source software developed.

Finally, each country or region needs to tailor that to their needs. End result - lots of different apps, for perfectly good reasons, but many of which have a lot of the same stuff inside them. Yes, it'd be more effective if they could share data to some extent, at least across regions where people mix a lot - but that requires co-operation and trust, and sharing with a region your region doesn't trust will reduce uptake substantially.

Personally, I don't trust the current UK government on this at all - and that isn't in any way based on any sort of nationalism, it's down to their shady contacts, shoddy history, and utter lack of trustworthiness.

I wonder how different Strava or Garmin connect apps are between nations. I bet the differences are only slight. If you want to track people there are companies which have been doing this for a decade plus. I bet in the last 6 months if asked they could have produced something decent, quicker and cheaper (although price is arguably the least important factor).  

The app isn't actually about tracking - it's about it quietly 'talking' to nearby devices and recording when it appears that two devices have been within a certain range for a certain amount of time.

The actual location doesn't matter, it's "who" you've been in contact with (OK, actually which device your device has been near).

They will be the same as far as I am aware. However, and this is a big however, the use case are very, very different as the different countries do not have different requirements.

Uploading GPS files and displaying them is rather different than tracking peoples proximity all the time.

Just pull up strava segments and see how flaky it can be. I rode a section on my mountain bike a while back and was slightly confused at just how badly everyone was kicking my arse. I would expect it at a trail centre but not on a random bit of not particularly amazing singletrack stuck between several road sections and not on the way to somewhere nice.

Looking at a few it soon became obvious they were all about 15m to the left riding on the road.

I will also note Garmin got wrecked a few months back due to ransomware. Feel comfortable with them having all your data?

You have a point on data security. But I think with their ability to search and sync with other devices etc.  there must be sone cross over of tech. Time will tell how well it works, there will always be a minority who avoid or abuse the system, plus the old who might not feel upto speed with tech to use it.

It really is only superficially the same. The needs for garmin/strava are rather different than the needs here.  Aside from anything else both are dependant on getting all your data into their system whereas to be successful this needs to avoid that.

To be fair they reversed that decision and now do use the google/apple system.

You don't need to trust the government, though. That's the clever trick with the google/apple contact tracing system: all your contacts are stored on your phone and are never broadcast to anyone else.

OK, if they're using that now that's good. Bit of a waste of £11 million, but I suppose that's small beer compared to all the other money they're wasting/passing to their mates.

I'm a teacher, if I downloaded it could a kid have a jolly good joke by reporting he had a positive test and getting the whole class (and all his teachers) to self isolate?

I can't be sure about the uk one, but the Scottish one needs a code to do that, and you only get it after a positive test. So probably not.

Only if you have been close enough to them for you to accumulate enough 'contact points'.

The same is true for any organisation, and there are potential 'denial of service' attacks that could be performed on company staff by competitors. If you want to go down that route...

Yeah that's true but for me the trust has gone. The Apple/Google route was available back in March or April yet the government thought they (or their mates) could make money by trying to outdo two of the largest software companies on the planet.  

Do you not remember the constant press at the time saying how vital it would be? Only after a couple of pitiful attempts had failed did it all go very quiet and it was relegated to an "additional tool" with all knowledge of it's prior importance was denied by multiple cabinet ministers.

Making mistakes during a fast changing situation can and will happen. Pretending you haven't made mistakes, lying about it and then asking for people's trust after repeated avoidable U-turns is not ok.  

Besides all that the vast majority of people I come into close contact with are at work where I can't use my personal phone most of the time anyways.

No, that’s not what I wanted to say, I wanted to say that I made a mistake and they are indeed not compatible. I had wrongly assumed that because they are both based on the same system they would work together, but I was able to verify that indeed isn’t the case.

What is unfortunate though, is that you decided to jump the gun and be unpleasant and agressive just because I made a simple mistake.

Thank you for acknowledging your mistake.

Perhaps think about what others clearly expected you to argue black is white too.

I don't trust the range detection to be accurate enough.  I tend to keep the phone either in my pocket, on the desk or in a bag on the floor of the classroom, no kids are within 2m of any of those spaces for more than fleeting contact, but if it makes an inaccurate range detection and thinks the kid on the front row is <2m away when in-fact he is 3m away, then it will mistakenly think we have been 'close' together for an hour. 

Don’t project your inability to be corrected on your facts on others.

Well, this was timed nicely... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/25/dominic-cummings-data-law-... 

That just sounds lovely </sarcasm>

We don't need no Dataprotection, We don't need no Gold Standard EU stuff.

Not with Traitors and Oligarchs in charge, all in all we're just sold out to the US of A

The new law no doubt saying 'all data to be piped directly to Cummings data centre'.

I'm imagining something like Cerebro. I bet Cummings has got a potty with some shower hoses connected to it. He'll be in a wheelchair next 

He really does seem to be a very strange individual. I know the press pick unflattering photos but even the sympathetic images of him smiling or otherwise being "unposed" he looks like a nasty piece of work - it must be his bulging eyes.

No doubt he's been effective at building a large catalogue of compromat on Johnson et al otherwise he would've been used as a useful scapegoat by now. I don't believe though he's this mystical svengali the papers make him out to be, he's just a massive knob with a chip on his shoulder.

I was wondering what kompromat people hold about Cummings, from his mysterious years in Russia.

In the every time you might think you could be over-reacting the Tories go one better category:

They are running credit checks on people trying to book Covid tests.

https://twitter.com/paysupplystaff/status/1309553481527840770/photo/1

The full article is behind a registration paywall:

https://www.hsj.co.uk/coronavirus/revealed-online-covid-tests-refused-to-th...

Where does it say they are actually running credit checks rather than using the DB as an address verifier?  

They have been doing that throughout, or at least for months.

From the Twitter account for the app in response to a question about receiving no code with test results:

"If your test took place in a Public Health England lab or NHS hospital, or as part of national surveillance testing conducted by the Office for National Statistics, test results cannot currently be linked with the app whether they’re positive or negative.

Thanks."

Now that would suggest a serious flaw in the app and again it seems to be between public and private sector. What use is an app that can't enter results from pillar 1 and pillar 4 testing? 

What's the betting that privately paid for tests as mooted by Harding recently will be compatible with the app but not NHS ones? 

He is a nasty piece of work. He oozes contempt for everyone and everything, and his jaunt up to Durham and his explanation in the Rose Garden proves it.

I know he'd like to think of himself as some sort of polymath, but really he's just a cheap propagandist, Goebbels with access to Facebook. With equal parts Thomas Cromwell and The Joker mixed in for good measure. And the good looks of Gollum.

They are using a credit reference agency, TransUnion, as the last step of the home test kit application. If you don't have credit, you will be refused a test, because, as far as the credit reference checks are concerned, if you don't have credit, you cannot exist. It's not checking the quality of your credit rating, just that you have one.

This is somewhat annoying, since it takes quite a while to get to that point, requiring eight pieces of personal information. They could at least explain that you will need a credit reference in advance, or tell you that you will have to apply some other way, but the application process simply stops, with no guidance on how to progress further.

Fortunately, I persisted with a phone application. In total, it took over an hour to book a test.

The problem I see (apart from the obvious one of people who fail/don't show up on a credit check not getting a test kit) is that Cummings et al have a history of data misuse by collating personal information across databases (Facebook, electoral roll, credit databases, customer lists from insurance company) in order to learn more about individuals than would be possible from a single database.

Outsourcing anything to do with Covid testing to a commercial credit checking agency chosen by this crowd is just as dodgy as having the Covid App collect personal information.   

does TransOnion then log who has been referred and accepted/rejected by this process?  It sounds like dirty data sharing - is the wish of Cummings for the UK to abandon EU data protection standards then a future getout to excuse current offences?

I don't think you 'fail' the test (as you might do if you were applying for some other financial reason). They are simply using it as one way to confirm identity. It's a shit way, considering how many other pieces of information they have.

And, yes, it is always a concern that it has been outsourced (and yet still under the NHS branding) to Scummings' mates. That's a risk you take whenever you apply for anything online.

Quite possibly: see my comments elsewhere.

Giving your personal data to anyone associated with Cummings, given the Vote Leave track record on data misuse, is like buying a car from someone with a conviction for dishonesty.    There's a huge red flag there compared with most transactions and it is something many people would wish to avoid.  By tying it to Covid tests Government are potentially helping them collect personal information which will then be used for other purposes.

So you think I shouldn't have applied for a test...?

The personal information is all government information, or easily accessible information, anyway. That's why it was annoying that they thought it necessary to do the TransUnion test: name, addr, dob, NI#, NHS#,:email address, phone number.

No, I'm saying that the government shouldn't blackmail people into giving personal information to Cummings mates in order to access a Covid test.

Yes, it is government information.  Now it is in the hands of Cummings pals to use for non-governmental purposes.

What they want is multiple pieces of identifying information for an individual so they can combine information in multiple databases which are keyed off different pieces of identifying information.   They have Facebook information keyed to cookies and e-mail addresses, electoral roll information keyed to name and address, customer records from things like Bank's insurance business and so on.  They want to combine and to do that they need to identify the same individual in multiple databases.  Getting multiple pieces of identifying information in the context of an official government form people will be scared to put fake info on is very valuable.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-self-isolation-...

"Only 18% of people self-isolate after developing coronavirus symptoms, UK study finds

Research also shows just 11% of people in contact with those testing positive stay at home for 14 days"

Hopefully that's many people self-isolate but imperfectly rather than going out to work or pub.

There was a longer radio piece on this and that was the gist. People try to isolate but practically can’t entirely very often.

It's fixed now.

https://twitter.com/NHSCOVID19app/status/1309944823248490498?s=19