UKC

On the panorama programme about the governments handling of the Covid crisis and the PPE shortage, one NHS worker was quoted as saying that they shouldn't be called heroes as it makes it ok for them to die. I thought that was an interesting take on it, and one I am still pondering.

If you are an NHS frontline worker, do you feel this is true? 

I've heard a few frontline workers express the same thing. One facebook friend who is on ITU at one of the worst affected hospitals in the country gets extremely angry about it because she sees the current narrative of heroic self sacrifice as being principally a way for people to absolve themselves of any consideration of whether things needed to be this way and whether their actions are contributing to the crisis. This is very personal to her as I believe she has lost a couple of close colleagues to CV-19 now.

I'm not sure I agree with her but it's a thought provoking take.

Heros is a term banded about so much nowadays that the word means nothing.

Heros ? Why because they do their job.

Dedicated healthcare workers.  Yes.  Why does everyone have to be heros. ?

I would fall into the category of NHS frontline worker. I find the use of the "NHS Heroes" term unhelpful as most of us are just doing our jobs under changed/difficult conditions. They've created this whole war-like analogy - "battling" covid on the "frontlines" and the whole thing about war is that involves a lot of stupid and unnecessary deaths - think Russian troops being sent into battle without rifles - probably a good analogy to the situation here at times.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it creates resentment in others that are still working or struggling at home and are not "heroic".

We have adequate PPE at the moment where I work, but it didn't arrive until after the outbreak was spreading locally, and the advice on when to use it meant it was restricted for "high risk" scenarios.  I still wouldn't trust the basic visor, surgical mask and plastic apron to provide great protection.

Six weeks ago I had Covid-19, likely from someone assessed by NHS 111 as "low risk" and seen without PPE. They had fever and shortness of breath, but hadn't been to an "at risk country".  I don't think this was in any way heroic, and was entirely avoidable if we had reacted sooner.

Yes, the efficacy of PPE is such a huge scandal. 

In our care home we have the dinner lady pinnies and surgical masks and visors. They are probably sufficient to protect us as our Covid residents don't seem to display the classic symptoms, so no coughing or anything. However, I don't think they protect the other residents sufficiently, as the pinnies don't cover the whole uniform so if we roll someone to change them, we can't help but touch them with the sleeves of our uniforms. We obviously remove gloves and pinnies between each resident (we change them any time we leave the room, even if just fetching something to come back to the same room), but our sleeves will touch the next resident who we turn. 

Our way of trying to limit it is that carers are split into groups so if you are on the "clean" group, you never enter the room of someone who has confirmed or suspected Covid, even just to drop off a meal. You will stay with your group all day. It does mean though that due to staffing levels, the confirmed and suspected residents are all attended by the same carers, so if a suspected resident doesn't actually have it, they are still being cared for by people who are attending to confirmed cases. We do the suspected ones before the confirmed ones for personal care, but you still have to dot between all of those rooms throughout the day.

NHS workers have my unqualified admiration in the present circumstances, they probably are heroes. However it looks a bit like the government is invoking the Blitz spirit to absolve itself of any responsibility. Last time I looked we still had a Health and Safety at Work Act and the NHS Executive and the Government look to me to be in major breach of their responsibilities as employers to keep their staff safe. I look forward to the HSE reports on staff deaths in the NHS. 

No not heroes but an underpaid section of the public sector who do a job that is a vocation. The risks front line staff are currently taking is shocking to many outside the sector.

I'd like to see return to the relative pay levels that existed in 2010. Also if the public wants a workforce in the near future all healthcare professional student debts should be cancelled.

Well...maybe looking forward isn't really the phrase, but I know what you mean! I dread the reports!

Yes, the rhetoric throughout all of this has been a bit "blitz spirit" really, hasn't it?

Definitely, pay and conditions needed to be hugely improved before this, and now more than ever that is needed! 

I know it's a while to wait, but the message needs to be clear at the ballot box next time around and in the mean time I guess we could maybe lobby our MPs to try and push through some changes sooner?

A doctor friend of mine has posted that on facebook. He doesn't want to be thanked for dying heroically, he wants adequate health and safety in his place of work!

My rough rule of thumb on this is a true hero will argue tooth and nail that they are not a hero. I hadn't thought about the hero / death bit though.

My definition of a hero is anyone who puts themselves in danger for the benefit of someone else.

That is of course if they are doing it for someone else and not for bragging rights on social media, some people will take every risk in the world so that random Internet folk think they are cool. 

That last comment is in no way aimed at you by the way, you needed work, you found work and your using your experience at work to further discussions on here and not for bragging rights. 

And I think this is where the problem is. They are being heroes, but they shouldn't be heroes! They should not be put in danger for the benefit of someone else. They should be protected while they use their valuable skills to benefit someone else.

I’m not, but I agree to the extent that they shouldn’t have to be heroes. At worst some of them should just be working harder and in more emotive circumstances than normal. It’s a national  disgrace that they’re having to put their lives at risk in order to treat patients. 

I understand what you're saying but the best ppe in the world isn't perfect so the danger though much lower will still be there. 

The 60k and life assurance cover to NHS staff and relatives to my way of thinking is guilt money. Proper protection for employees at ALL levels should have been available.

To any NHS/care personnel reading this, you may not wish to be called 'heroes', but you didn't walk away from a dangerous environment when you were needed. Thank you. 

I don’t think you have to put your own life on the line to be a hero. If someone gives CPR to someone in the street and saves their life, they’re still a hero.

A hero helps someone else for no personal gain. I think this definition works well for NHS frontline workers due to the career being more of a vocation rather than being done for money.

That's pretty much my definition of hero and most NHS roles, my own included, don't breech that threshold. It's not enough that your life might be very slightly at risk. For your actions to be classed heroic a person must be aware that their efforts to help someone else could very likely end their own lives.

Getting a bit sweaty and your knees dirty to try and save someone's life isn't heroic, it's pretty basic entry level stuff to be classified as a decent human being. And it's not saving a life that counts, it's the trying.

Most NHS workers make huge personal gains from their professions. They just aren't the kind of gains that appear in bank statements.

Mean all credit to the ones actually dealing with Covid19 patients. They are knowingly putting themselves at an increased risk in order to help save people's lives where they can. But at the end of the day it is there job, a job which is secure and in the north at least generally considered pretty well paid, especially with all the overtime some will be racking up. (I assume?)They treat infectious people all the time, just not as many or as often. And to be honest, for the majority of medical staff, being a young and healthy person the risk is no big deal, it's very unlikely to do them any real harm.if you're in your 60's and working on a Covid19 ward I think it's an unreasonable workplace risk.

So yeah they are probably having a hard slog at work at the moment but people do those all the time in all manner of jobs and noone clap's for them. Consider supermarket workers, minimum wage or close to, forced to deal with 100's of people every day and little say in the matter, either do it or be left destitute, at least as risky as a nurse, crap pay and little recognition.

Then you've the volunteers, people going out of their way to expose themselves to Covid19 in order to help others with no finical reward at all. My wife has just done her training to be one at the local pop up hospital ward thing. Not actually needed yet as it's empty but maybe soon. Still wouldn't say hero's really, the health risks for us are minimal so it's no real sacrifice, just something to do as she's on furlough. 

For someone intelligent enough to string a sentence together you're demonstrating a remarkable lack of insight into what is actually going on in healthcare at the moment. No one working on the ground in the NHS saw this coming, no one signed up for putting themselves and their families at this level of risk and if you think it's only over 60s in the firing line then you should inform yourself before posting on such an emotive topic in such a crass manner.

Genuinely impressed. Every time I think you couldn't possibly display less emotional intelligence, you manage to inflict a hold my beer moment on yourself.

No a hero is not someone doing their job as they have been trained to. It's someone who does their job in circumstances when all their peers are too terrified to do so. I've been very lucky to know a few true heroes and invariably they think everyone else would have done the same, that they were just getting the job done. Although the reality is that they, unlike their colleagues, stood up and took action when others were incapacitated by fear.

So no not all NHS workers are heroes, because heroes are the ones who stand out from their peers. Heroes are all human and anyone has the capacity to be heroic by showing moral or physical courage.

A good example of this is someone I know who was on patrol in Afghan and ambushed, the whole platoon got into cover but an individual had been killed and his body was in the open, the bullets kept coming and the field set ablaze. The specific instruction was to stay put, stay safe and someone ran out to pick up the body and bring it back. He didn't know the name of the guy, or anything, he defied orders and better judgement because morally he believed that the family needed to bury a body and that was more important for him than his life in that moment. He doesn't believe he's a hero and has no medal for it but the people he was with that day think he's an absolute legend. 

In other times I've known people who had a job to do, who refused to do it because it was tough despite the fact that all their peers were on board and it was the essence of the job description because fear was ruling them. These people are also human and just because you get that reaction one day doesn't mean they can't become a hero the next. Life is complex and it always troubled me that all soldiers I worked with were as a blanket term as it undermines the real achievement of true heroes as some of these soldiers were cowards when it really mattered. 

I believe the best sentiment is that rather than calling all workers heroes it would be more accurate to say that nobody wants to be a hero but in difficult times some become heroes by accident. Rank or job description does not make you a hero it's what you do when it all goes wrong that counts. 

Interesting thoughts, thanks. 

I am still uncomfortable with NHS workers being likened to soldiers, in my mind they are polar opposites. Soldiers are trained to kill and expect to maybe be killed themselves. Doctors and nurses are trained to save and nurture with no reasonable expectation of the job killing them.

I get your point though that not all soldiers are heroes. On those terms though, it sounds like anyone working with insufficient PPE on a Covid ward is a hero as they are knowingly puting their life in danger for others when the job they signed up for did not ask them to do that.

I'm another frontline HCP, and feel like I'm just doing my usual job (although with less patients currently), but clumsily due to having to work in PPE all the time.

It doesn't feel heroic. Slow, stressful and risky but not heroic. The risks is not just the short-term chance of being infected at a high viral load, but the longer term PTSD risk.

I'm particularly concerned about the mental health risk to minimum wage, zero hour social carers. As a paramedic I'm beginning to notice a pattern of attending to very sick people who are chronically ill and have caught Covid19 without ever having left the house. No family carers have been symptomatic and the same can be likely be said for their professional carers, yet the patients have still been infected. These patients aren't doing well, and that is going to be a hell of a psychological burden for the carers involved, who are likely to have been the infection source.  

Yes, very tough for carers. My mum is caring for my dad and she currently refuses to have anyone in the house at all. We shop for her, drop it on the doorstep etc.

My dad had lost all strength in his legs so she is lifting him onto the toilet, into the shower chair etc all by herself as she won't have any help in. When he had a problem with his legs that needed looked at, she refused to let Dr in to see him and sent photos instead. It's so hard for her, but she absolutely refuses to have help in to keep both of them safe. It's an awful situation for those people.

Hope you are managing to keep yourself healthy both in body and mind through this, thanks for your hard work in this time. I hope you are right about not being a hero, in that I hope you have all the protection you need in order that you are not risking your own life for others. 

It's not heroic but the longterm mental and physical health risks specific to HCPs working through this pandemic are very real. I've got colleagues with much reduced lung function nearly two months after contracting the virus and I've got many more colleagues feeling quite burnt out due to weeks of heightened stress. Personally speaking, there have been several CV19 related situations and decisions I've had to make that have been difficult to process. 

I sadly agree and can personally empathise with that comment.

Yep. I've reached the numbing acceptance stage of the whole situation. I also have the added joy of knowing that I have failed ALL the Fit Tests for FFP3 masks and have to plod on regardless. That's nice.

I don't really get what you or off duty mean. Reading the other posts the general consensus seems to be NHS staff are not "hero's" for just doing their jobs and I agreed with that consensus. Hero in my view is someone who takes a  significant risk of / sacrifices their own life to save others, of example, running into a burning building/jumping in front of a truck to save a child etc.

The death rate within the NHS is far lower than in the general population due to most staff not being in at risk categories despite the increased exposure. And like I said I think it would be wise for the NHS to redistribute staff in order to keep the more susceptible staff away from front line Covid19 work where possible. 

I don't think anyone isn't giving credit to our NHS staff for the work they are doing but ultimately they are employed to provide health care and that is what they are doing. I'm sure they are having a harder than usual time at the moment due to the workload but they are far from the only people suffering in this.

It's perfectly reasonable I think for the many who face loosing their jobs or businessess or homes to look at NHS staff earning a decent wage with complete job security getting universally praised by the public to think "yeah, I wish I could be complaining about work being tough" as they face government mandated ruin and noone gives a crap about them because they just own a cafe or something.  

When Covid comes knocking to your place of work, please take care because you will most definitely be in an environment with high virus load.

That truly is heroic, especially with the PPE that you are given.

Thats interesting - especially with the recent outbreaks of SARS, MERS and Ebola - the possibility of a truly nasty infectious disease hitting our shores has been on the radar for a bit - how has it passed the 'on the ground' NHS workers by that its been a possibility? Clearly exercises like Cygnus get run at the top level, are there any similar events run at individual trust levels?

That would be a big fat no. Bums on seats laddy, bums on seats. Where I work the only training that we are given is the mandatory training of two days every couple of years. Mandatory meaning that they have to give it to us otherwise that would not happen.

Any training has to be done in our own time and at no cost to the service.

How's that for feeling valued?

I think that’s exactly what some NHS staff are doing, taking significant risks with their own life, and the lives of their families, which is in some level harder to accept, to save the lives of others.

this is not uniformly distributed across all NHS staff- my work takes me into a clinical area where COVID is present once per week, but I do not have to have close contact with patients who have the virus. I’m definitely not a hero. 
 

on the other hand, some staff are working in settings where there is very high viral load in the environment, and/or having to provide close personal care or examinations of people who are infected, but without adequate PPE. The risk to these staff members is non trivial, and even younger staff with no underlying health conditions can be overwhelmed by high levels of viral exposure. Anaesthetists, nurses, paramedics did not take up their careers with an expectation their job would lead to their early death; this is absolutely not ‘just part of their job’. Your point about the statistics is not valid; the numbers of such staff are small compared to the general population, and even to NHS staff overall. The risk to staff in the high risk groups is clearly non-trivial. And the risks go beyond early death- the psychological impact of going into an environment where your death is a non-negligible outcome day after day, and with no end in sight, for people who are not self selected to be comfortable with that, is likely to be severe. 
 

I absolutely take your point about livelihoods being lost, and people will die because of that; and I don’t agree with blanket hero status for all NHS staff, again, I’m no hero. But some staff clearly are, and this is worth acknowledging. 

Because this is a Global health crisis unprecedented in living memory? Because SARS, MERS and Ebola all came and went with barely a ripple? Because familiarity with threat warnings doesn't readily translate into a constant expectation of that threat materialising? 

Were you expecting a national lockdown due to a virus with a 100,000 plus fatalities hitting the UK during your career? because I certainly wasn't.

An A and E nurse "signs up" to help people in traumatic circumstances, and has to make a fair degree of sacrifice just to do their normal job.

They don't sign up to work with a large number of highly infectious patients with a fatal disease, and suffer the consequences and risks of thus potentially being exposed to a much higher viral load than others.

Not to mention carrying the infection back to their family. As a result of which many have moved out of family homes or significantly altered living arrangements.

To know that you face that level of risk, that you hadn't signed up for, and still turn up and expose yourself to it requires a degree of bravery. 

Citation needed. You need to show that fatalities in the NHS are the same as amongst the general population, non vulnerable.

And they are directly exposed to infected people by the nature of their job, looking after infected people. Which is NOT what they signed up for 

I'll agree life is bloody awful and hard for many, facing potential financial crisis or ruin. That doesn't make them heroes. Nor does it detract from the bravery shown by the NHS.

The whole "just doing your job" argument that you have used, significantly underplays the degree of courage required in normal circumstances of "just doing your job" and totally ignores the exceptional circumstances we are now faced with.

Within policing I would expect colleagues to routinely deal with some degree of violent confrontation. That isn't saying they don't need inherent bravery to do it, because I've seen some who don't. I wouldn't call them heroes for that, but I  would take issue with those that say dismissively that is "just doing their job". It displays a lack of a combination of self awareness in how you sound, a lack of understanding what the job entails, a lack of empathy of what the situation you are faced with feels like emotionally.

Wish I'd written that response

I've been involved in lots of exercises involving worst case scenarios. It can assist with planning, it can't assist with courage, usually displayed when the incident starts, but often continuing as it develops.

You can plan to run towards danger, but a plan doesn't move your legs.

I think you should wind your neck in. Talking about infection rates amongst 1.2 million NHS workers, most of whom are in low exposure occupations, is pretty meaningless when you've got at least 3 people on this thread in high risk roles. My own service employs something like 2500 paramedics. Out of those one previously fit and healthy 48 year old is already dead and I personally know two who've been seriously unwell and hospitalised with the virus. Extrapolate those two cases across the trust and there must be dozens but only deaths are getting publicised. Those odds are far above your generalised characterisations about NHS workers facing little increased risk. 

But the physical risks are fairly manageable. What you have absolutely no conception of is the mental strain of the unprecedented nature of the decisions HCPs are being asked to make compounded by the frequency they're being asked to make them.

I started my career with an epidemic that clocked up several million casualties, and trained at a time when a novel disease was having a massive impact on my healthcare field - so yes at least from a disease perspective. I am however lucky not to be the target species for most pathogens I'm exposed to.

However my point was more about do local exercises ever get run, and if staff dont ever occasionaly war game random scenario stuff in their heads.

Occasionally War Game style exercises such as terror incidents, major RTC or chemical biological incidents are done with the various emergency services, but from an ambulance service perspective they are all on a voluntary basis only and never in work time. I know that the Fire Service train on a regular basis, I just wish that we did this. We fly by the seat of our pants, hoping that nothing goes wrong because if it does then managers come out of the woodwork to second guess our every decision with the luxury of hindsight to nail us to the wall.

If you don't mind me asking, which novel disease?

No local exercises involving pandemics and why do you expect us to think about stuff that has never happened in our lifetime when our scope of practice runs from birth imminent to end of life care? We had quite enough commonplace clinical situations we hadn't seen to try and mentally prepare for without adding in once in a century Global pandemics.

So far, our 4 confirmed cases have either recovered or are doing well, which suggests the viral load is low, I think? (I'm not sure that I fully understand it, but my thinking is that if old people are only getting it mildly then they only received a low viral load?)

None of our residents have displayed classic symptoms, no fevers or coughs. My thinking is that if they are not coughing, the load they are shedding is not going too far so hopefully not too high for us. 

I did have a fun game feeding one gentleman who had been confirmed as positive who would sometimes just spray his food back out at you after you put it in his mouth! I had to leave his bed low, put a spoonful in and immediately stand up and back so that it mostly hit my apron! I only ever feed anyone with a full face visor on, even if we have no suspicion of Covid, as coughing while eating is pretty common, and we wear masks, gloves and aprons at all times anyway. My arms have never been so clean in all my life with my incessant hand and arm washing! So far, I still seem to be ok, fingers crossed that continues!

My NHS career is likely to last about 40 years (I hope!), a guess yours is too. For once in a century events, that gives a bit under a 50:50 chance of being caught up in one. 
 

There have been enough “warning shots” that sooner or later a new respiratory virus that would have the unfortunate combination of transmissibility and severity would arise that I’d come round to thinking it was probably more than 50:50 for this cohort of staff. 
 

To be honest, the consequences were clearly going to be so severe, my way of managing the worry this provoked has been to try to ignore it and hope we’d get lucky.
 

That appears to have been the government response too, which has been disappointing to realise 

My first day being paid by the NHS (rather than unpaid training) was also my 50th Birthday. While I've always enjoyed robust health the expectation of lugging unconscious 20 stone patients down a couple of flights of stairs on my 90th Birthday would seem a little ambitious.

You only know of four cases. Sadly there will be more.

Your clients have been fortunate enough to have their immune system beat the virus. With a virus such as Covid there are two outcomes. The body fights the virus immune system wins, or the virus infects enough cells that the host body dies. It really is kill or cure with no wiggle room.

Viral Load is the environment that you work in, along with how much enters your body, and how much of the virus you are subjected to in comparison to being in a safe area such as a beach with nobody around you for miles.

You are in a building with four cases that you are aware of. The viral load is going up. Sorry.

Sadly not everybody shows symptoms. You can only acknowledge that you have four confirmed cases and take the mindset that everybody else in the building is suspected as having the virus. This includes all staff.

Everything that left that man's mouth was infected with the virus. Food, sputum, and anything else. This is where you would need at the very least a FFP3 mask. I don't want to alarm you, but I would think very hard before working in those conditions with less. What about the clothing that you were wearing?

A plastic apron would not protect you from such a situation. You may as well wear a bikini.

I have failed Fit tests for FFP3 masks and as such I am vary wary of what situations I walk into.

It may be a good idea to ask your employer, to see the Risk Assessment that they have in place for patients/clients creating Aerosol Generated Particles when they are confirmed Covid 19 cases coughing, spitting out or vomiting food and what appropriate PPE you should be wearing for your own safety.

And if such PPE is not available or a Risk Assessment has not been created, what steps are the employer doing to keep you safe at work?

Please stay safe, and if working within a Covid Confirmed environment, assume that everybody has the virus and treat accordingly. The virus is that infective. And if a member of staff moves from a Covid Environment, with the level of PPE that you all have, how confident are you that the virus is not being transferred to that area or taken home with them.

Sorry to be so alarming but welcome to the Front Line. Your medals are in the post along with lashings of tea and cake.

Our first cases were a good few weeks ago, which gives me hope that we are doing ok. One gentleman died this week but had tested negative for the virus in the last few days, however he could have been a false negative. He did have some breathing difficulty in the last few hours, so the closest we have had in the home to anyone having the normal symptoms. We have people being tested all the time. The nurse constantly walks around with her thermometer checking the temperature of anything that moves!

We are being as careful as we possibly can, there are not enough long sleeved gowns for the NHS at the moment, there is no way we will get them! They are getting their hands on whatever they can. We keep carers who are caring for confirmed or suspected cases separate from those non- suspected. It's the best we can do in that environment to limit the spread. Widows are open as much as possible throughout the home to keep fresh air circulating. 

The risk assessment for aerosol generating proceedures is as per public health advice, which is wear the full face visor with a mask. It is suggested that a long sleeved gown should be worn, but we can't get hold of them. We remove uniforms to travel to and from work, wash them and have a shower as soon as we get home. I cycle each way, I wonder what effect the wind has on reducing any residual virus on my skin and hair? 

I don't like tea, can I send it back please? 😜

Of course you can.

Now, with the job that you are doing and all that it entails, do you class yourself as a hero?

Or just some poor sod trying to get by and earn enough money to keep a roof over your head?

Edit

I'm option two.

No, I genuinely feel like, other than the chap spraying his food at me, I am protected enough. My feeling is that the long sleeved gowns would protect other people from my uniform as I assist them. I don't feel too vulnerable as most of our residents don't have any power in their lungs to project the virus any distance. I am very careful to make sure my mask is snug on my face (nothing is designed to fit me, so I put the ear loops around my pony tail to keep it tight). 

A large part of my day is just playing large scale whack-a-mole, returning residents to their rooms continually as they don't understand why they can't leave! You get one back in and another 3 pop out! Lol

Also, we are not being called heroes, just NHS! I guess I intended this to be more of a thread about the language surrounding it. I think most employers are doing the absolute best they can to get the best PPE that they can. Our managers step into the care roles when a staff member has to go home with any symptoms. (We get sent home for testing if we have headaches, sore throats, upset stomachs etc. People get sent away all the time!) The managers are in the thick of it with us and trying their best to keep themselves safe as much as us

fair comment! 

Your uniform is part of your PPE.  PPE in this case is designed to keep the virus within the room and NOT into in your body. The PPE is to be removed so that the virus and PPE are contained within the room and/or inside yellow clinical waste bags. Any PPE/uniform which is not covered by disposable/removable PPE is also contaminated. This includes your uniform, shoes, hair and anything else that is not covered by disposable items which do not leave the room or placed into yellow contaminated waste bags.

Basically you are playing a microscopic game of whack-a-mole with a virus that gets everywhere and can live on all surfaces for an unknown period of time, from hours to days depending on which scientist you listen to.

If any food, sputum or bodily fluids from the mouth or nose can hit your apron, face mask or visor them I can assure you that microscopic particles filled with the virus are floating all around your head getting behind your visor and being breathed in through your mask. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Every member of staff is also unwittingly playing whack-a-mole transferring the virus on their uniforms which is not covered by disposable PPE.

Even though it is humbling for people to clap for me every Thursday Night and as I drive past them in my company van, Care Staff such as yourself are exposed to the same risks. We're no different in that respect. During a 12 hour shift I come into contact with Covid Confirmed patients for maybe, at most, an hour at a time. And no more than a few patients each shift. You, however are stuck in a building for hours on end with confirmed Covid patients and are breathing the same air as them with PPE that gives the illusion of protection.

If it was a Game of Trumps or a Willy Waving contest on who had the most dangerous environment to work in, then you would win hands down every time.

Which is why long sleeved gowns would be worth us having, but it's just not going to happen. The best we can do is stick to our groups of "clean" residents being cared for by separate people than those confirmed or suspected. We don't even drop off food to those from the other group. 

The wanderers are the biggest problem, and one to which there is no solution as we can't lock people in their rooms! They are not prisoners! When we have time, we sit with people in their rooms and chat with them (the rooms are big and I open windows whenever I can and stay 2m away) and this helps to reduce the whack-a-mole game. There is only so much you can do though!

BSE

I was asking if people did that (speculating about what ifs) not saying they should do - although I think it’s a good thing to war game things - probably a lot depends on the type of work you do - as I m in “hours of boredom moments of terror” I get a lot of time to speculate.

I'd say there's a lot more similarities than most would be willing to admit. All soldiers are also trained to administer medical care to all casualties without thought for 'sides' while they're being shot at. Medical training is rudimentary but efficient and practiced regularly.

The polar opposite theory is a pernicious lie, used to dehumanise soldiers. There are reservist infantry soldiers who are paramedics, doctors, nurses and vicars day to day and every special forces medic is a fully qualified NHS trained paramedic. We are all humans when we're born and we are when we die, everyone is capable of compassion. It should be noted that dehumanised soliders are more likely to commit war crimes as they begin to believe it is what society expects of them and act accordingly. 

In my experience there are three types of people who pull over and administer medical aid at road traffic collisions they pass; (ex)soldiers, NHS staff and firemen. Most people just telephone an ambulance, stand and watch. Obviously talking about the time between accident and ambulance arrival.

That is interesting. Thanks for that perspective

I would guess at that being more to do with people not knowing what they can do rather than being willing? I would have no hesitation in getting stuck in, but have been doing first aid courses for the last 20 years (eeck, that makes me old! Lol). I think for most who either haven't done any or did one course many years ago, they are worried about doing the wrong thing rather than being reluctant to help. 

I was thinking it might have been AIDS, but neither presented much of an infection risk to attending clinicians. I dread to think what you'd have to do to contract BSE from a patient and in the case of AIDS only 1 in 300 needle stick injuries would result in transmission.

CV19 is far and away beyond anything that modern healthcare has ever had to deal with.

Your original question was sparked by another poster suggesting that this sort of thing was what we signed up for. Very, very few frontline HCPs contemplated something of this magnitude happening. I'm pretty confident in saying this as for the first month at least, discussions along the lines of how utterly weird, bizarre and unexpected the whole situation was were common currency in every crew room, cab and hospital corridor.

Sorry to quibble, but this isn't the case. A fully qualified NHS paramedic now needs to go back to university for 3 years and attain a BSc. There are indeed fully qualified paramedics attached in a support role to SF units but they aren't themselves classed as special forces.

Maybe you should note that the (only ?) man to win TWO Victoria Crosses in WW1 was a Doctor.

I did some quick, "back of fag packet" style maths, and found that 0.016% of NHS medical staff have died of CV-19, whilst 0.038% of the entire population have. Even removing the Care Home deaths, this would imply that NHS medical staff deaths are actually LOWER than the main population. Obviously many NHS staff are in a much more vulnerable occupation than others - these are the ones who are shouldering the burden of danger, but not everyone is.

Maybe if the government could actually get testing done on the main population, and therefore identify the carriers, then we could see an end to this disaster.

Off duties point was you'd have to compare NHS covid fatalities with equivalent members of the population (i.e. relatively fit and healthy), not the general covid death rate which is predominantly made up of the elderly and vulnerable

yes - as I said I don't tend to catch the things my patients have - different species n'all.

Epidemics with far higher R than corona virus, and with massive economic effects have happened in the last 20 years in the UK. I get that you had not contemplated the possibility of a nasty disease like this cropping up - I'm just curious as to why that was - some of what Lemming says about not being included in planning exercises is one element, another might be that you are so busy you done have time to contemplate "what ifs".

Not at all. A large proportion of my time on shift is spent contemplating truly horrendous “what ifs”. The information we get up on screen as we are directed from job to job is rather limited and often inaccurate. My personal heart stoppers from the last shift included ‘unresponsive 11 month infant’ and ‘8 month pregnant, life threatening bleed’. The ten minutes or so journey time to scene is then spent solely on “what ifs” as well as mentally reviewing various guidelines, drug dosages and ALS protocols. Against such a backdrop advance pondering on ‘what if I’m caught up in a Global pandemic?” Comes pretty far done the list of concerns.

Edit: > Epidemics with far higher R than corona virus, and with massive economic effects have happened in the last 20 years in the UK.

This may be true, but they had a negligible impact on the wider health care system and bugger all impact on the ambulance service. Are you of the opinion that CV19 had comparable precedents in the recent past?

https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/...

Edit: haven't read the full thread, just got off work. Sorry if this has been posted, I found it very reassuring: NHS patient-facing workforce comprises over 1% of the UK population, and over 2% of the working population, but NHS deaths due to Covid comprise just under 0.5% of total Covid deaths.

Your point is noted, and undermines my point above: the article I linked disappointingly doesn't (unless I missed it) directly compare NHS deaths with the death rate amongst the rest of the working population.

I wish to god we could ditch all this Blitz/Dunkirk spirit stuff. It infantilises us as a country. For instance Boris probably genuinely believed his pluck would protect him from the virus. It was childishly irresponsible in two ways: he made himself useless when he was needed (think Norwegian soldiers who are court martialled for allowing themselves to get frostbite); he almost certainly spread the virus to other people.

We really need to snap out of this pathological nostalgia.It has done us much harm. 

Not in the strict sense, no.  But in the sense that there have been recent events where similar diseases have occurred in human populations but have not quite kicked on to the extent that Covid 19 has (SARS, MERS), and a number of epidemics which have ripped through populations  in Europe or the U.K. and have shown how easy disease transmission can be in a modern highly connected world, despite high standards of healthcare for the affected populations and a rather more robust repertoire of management strategies. (Try schmallenberg, blue tongue, FMD).
 

these are the events that have to an extent informed things like pandemic war gaming at a government level - but clearly have not percolated down into the thoughts of many practitioners. 

Only 3 double VC winners ever,  2 were doctors.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08b3jyp

R4 More or Less had a go if i remember last weeks epsisode rightly.

Ooh, thanks. 

I love More or Less, but must have missed that one. I'll give it a listen.

Other stuff contemplated at the level of governmental planning include, amongst many other things, meteor strike, debilitating solar flare, nuclear accident and crippling mass computer hack. I've not spent much time contemplating any of those scenarios and can't see what good it would do me if I did. 

You've banged on about this at quite some length now and I really can't fathom what your point is. This line of enquiry was sparked by Lord Ash's assertion that frontline NHS signed up for this pandemic, an assertion that I called out as bollocks. Is it your position that if you take the shilling as an essential service provider then you should be unsurprised, uncomplaining and unperturbed if you end up dealing with everything from alien invasion to the rise of Godzilla?

Dear God no. We've already raked over, dissected and discarded that one. In conclusion, it was wholly holey.

Because they go to work, when they know they might not be coming home the same as when they went in.

So I'm happy to use the term heroes, but there are different levels of heroism as with most things.

I was going to send you a link to a supplier who provides non-disposable respirators to HART. Many PES at Wigan station as well as ED staff at Wigan hospital bought these a couple of weeks ago, horrified at PHE's downgrade from FFP3s to non-protective surgical masks (note; surgical masks do not reach the standard required to be classed as personal protective equipment under European directive 89/686). But then the latest PPE directive landed this afternoon from our brass...

NWAS cannot guarantee that PPE purchased outside the NHS supply chain or not procured by NWAS procurement meet the standards set out by law and so we cannot permit their use when caring for patients. This means that you cannot wear PPE which you have brought from home or have received as donations. We appreciate that the public want to help but it is important to remember that these self-made products have not gone through the rigorous testing that NHS approved products have. We do not know if they are safe. Without certified assurance, stating that the products meet the standards outlined above, we would be failing in our responsibility as a care provider to the public and to you as a valued member of our team, if we were to allow their use.If you are approached regarding donations then please raise this with your Operations Manager who can link in with the Health and Safety team regarding the offer.Even if items are in use elsewhere within the NHS, we cannot guarantee their effectiveness in the ambulance setting, especially in circumstances where there is no agreed methods of safe storage, fitting or cleaning. The recommended PPE for our setting is designed to work together and non-standard PPE can impact on the effectiveness of other essential protection such as visors or goggles. As a result we have to ask you to only use the PPE equipment provided for you by the trust.

Apparently using my own FFP3s contravenes this guidance as they were acquired outside of NHS supply lines, despite them being the same model and manufacturer as issued kit. So I suppose my choices are ignoring the directive, not treating the patient or disregarding my own risk assessment and personal safety. Happy days.

Short version, use somebody else's kit, and any compensation claims can either be drastically reduced or refused. And any injuries or worse can be denied as official kit was not used.

Use only the kit provided and if you're very unlucky compo won't be a concern. I've got mates who knew the NWAS para, he was fit and healthy with no underlying health issues. The YAS para who's just died was described as a fitness fanatic by his family. 

Even more so the health workers in Brazil.

How would they know you'd used, or more to the point, were using somebody else's kit, at the time you caught something? More to the point how would they prove it?

If its the same as issue kit how would they know?

I know what I'd be wearing in your position, and it wouldn't be a bit of cloth.

Edit: That's a weasley worded letter. It stresses that you shouldn't use donated kit, which is fair enough, but you are using certified PPE that you are trained to fit. A half competant lawyer could argue your employer is breaching their duty of care over the issue of non compliant PPE. Wear the proper kit and get your union involved.

It was sparked by your reply, not his assertion. 
 

I don’t think people sign up for the super rare, I was just interested in the idea that people did not speculate or train for the super rare. Nuclear accident is another one I’d be interested in if I was you.

The type of FFP3 I have is in very short supply and our organisations guidelines state that FFP3s should only be used in specific circumstances. I've already been pulled up on wearing one but the manager accepted that I was using my own kit. If I were to be pulled again on the matter a real jobsworth could insist that I was contravening regulations. 

NWAS cannot guarantee that PPE purchased outside the NHS supply chain or not procured by NWAS procurement meet the standards set out by law and so we cannot permit their use when caring for patients.

I'd insist that formal proceedings were initiated, but its there in black and white.

I've watched the excellent series 'Chernobyl' and now have zero interest in attending a nuclear accident thank you.

So you have thought about it

Not far from my patch is that huge rotting pile of fun Sellafield.

youtube.com/watch?v=SVAvA6fP8Xw&

Not for me ta. 

'Regulations' imply that bit of 'guidance' has some legal standing 😉

At the end of the day it's your health. NWAS doesn't test the kit, they rely on the certification. If you're using the same supplier and type of PPE in use in the NHS, following fitting/decontamination instructions, the kit is compatible with the other PPE and hasn't been withdrawn on safety grounds then I can't see what the issue, (other than embarrassing the management for not applying a duty  of care), is.

Stay safe.

I know what I'd rather be dealing with, and it's not infected patients!

Thing is NWAS do test their own kit (though not before issuing in the case of one piece of shit FFP3 that was recently quietly withdrawn) and they do have fair grounds for insisting on adherence to their own supply chains. There are currently huge amounts of fake FFP3s flooding the market, just Google "fake 3M masks". The source of my own kit is unimpeachable but I'd really rather not flag up on management's radar just 6 months into my career.

Fair enough. Look after yourself.

If the NHS workers are heroes, what must the Farmers who feed us be?

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/most-dangerous-jobs-britain-a75659...

Farmers are great, but I doubt many go to work with the really chance of coming home with something they didn't leave the house with. Something that might well kill them.

In the 1980s I recall reading & hearing after the Falkland War, hearing the word 'Heroes'  being used in a much wider sense.  'Football heroes' was one debasing example  and many more followed,  which to me and many other people, simply devalued the word 'Hero'  Now everyone is a hero.

Many NHS staff work incredibly hard and under difficult situations but I'm not sure they take the same high risks to their lives as many of our servicemen did in the Falklands and other other conflict situations.   

During the Falklands war an old friend took a risk by staying behind on a bombed, burning & sinking ship to save someone calling for help and trapped by machinery.  He knew the consequences of going back  to help might be fatal.  He went back and he also died.  He would be what most people would describe as a hero.   

I'm not sure a footballer deserves to be called a   hero and I'm not sure that many other jobs deserve to be called heroic when the consequences of getting it wrong are guaranteed to be fatal.

Thanks for the update - I knew at least one was a Doctor, and vaguely remembered another.

Nice to have the accurate facts.

Exactly. Plenty of people quietly getting on with their jobs, some of which are particularly risky on a daily basis who get little/no reward and will continue on well after after the current crisis is over. 

Working hard and under difficult situations isn't what makes a hero. It is, as you say, about exposing yourself to a risk to life.

Like an A and E nurse who is now working in the "red" section dealing with COVID19 cases every day.

You could equally say that a worker conducting roadworks is exposing himself to a risk to life on a daily basis.  Hero or again, just doing his job?

I very much admire and respect the work the NHS does, and think that pay, conditions and investment should be improved, however a couple of recent studies have shown that health care workers are no more at risk of Covid 19 than any other sector in society.  To quote the conclusions from one UK study here:

"However, the NHS is estimated to employ approximately 1.2-1.5 million staff, including more than 120,000 doctors, approximately 300,000 nurses and a similar number of healthcare support workers. A modest estimate of the patient-facing NHS workforce might be 600,000-800,000, which is more than 1 per cent of the UK population and more than 2 per cent of the employed population.

There is also a remarkable correlation between the cumulative UK deaths from covid-19 in the UK population and among health and social care workers. Accepting a lag of one to two days, the ratio is very close to 1:200 so the deaths among health and social care workers are approximately 0.5 per cent of all deaths, suggesting they are not overrepresented.

Although there are caveats to this estimate — explained below — and every death is one to be mourned, the data does not clearly show that healthcare workers are dying at rates proportionately higher than other employed individuals or even the population as a whole. Again, this is cautiously reassuring."

This in now way devalues what the NHS do, we are very grateful but I think we can also safely say that there are countless jobs that carry huge amounts more risk to life than working in an A&E department.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that, prior to the 2003 military adventures, the annual fatality rate amongst Britain's fisherfolk was higher than that of the armed forces. I could imagine similar statistics among farmers, coal-miners (when there were any) and the like. I suppose in many cases things going wrong and leading to deaths in these fields would be the result of carelessness or mistakes, which don't resonate with heroism, but it's still not entirely logical that there's nothing like the public awareness of or celebration for people who are still 'serving' the country, albeit in a more prosaic fashion than military personnel

But the likely hood of death is relatively smaller for NHS staff than someone taking a risk beyond that normally expected of them.  Plenty of policemen/women take risks beyond the call of duty and as I'm sure you know quite a few have died for it.   And yes there's always going to be a big grey area of what is and isn't 'normally' acceptable in terms of risk taking and being a hero. 

Without knowing the original source of that quote it's difficult to be sure, but there would need to be a lot of further detail - on the face of it that is suggesting that the NHS frontline staff are dying at the same rate as the rest of UK. Bear in mind the "rest of the UK" data is biased something like 50% to deaths in the over 70s, then on face value thats something like twice as high rate in frontline NHS allowing for age.

And that's before we start looking at underlying conditions Vs "healthy" etc etc

As previously mentioned - working on the frontline of a fatal infectious disease is not "something normally expected" of an NHS nurse.

That's why heroism isn't just about risk you are exposed to.

Heroism in my view is when the risk you are faced with suddenly dramatically jumps up to a level you didn't sign up for, but you go ahead and take that risk anyway - because you are doing it motivated with a degree of selflessness, typically for the benefit of others rather than yourself and rather than just for a pay packet.

If I go into the police force I accept that I may have to apprehend a knife wielding criminal.  I accept that I might have to contain a potentially violent protest etc.  These things come as part of the job.

Similarly if you embark on a career with the frontline NHS, you are aware that you are going to have fairly regular exposure to people with serious and potentially contagious diseases, and that these deadly new diseases will always come along every few years or so.

Thankfully despite the trouble with PPE procurement that has undoubtedly created problems and needs to be rectified, recent studies have shown that NHS frontline staff are not significantly at any more risk from Covid 19 death than the general population.  That is a reason to be pleased in my book.

Another poster implied that it was.

But there is no additional risk as studies have shown.  In any case, what level of risk did NHS staff sign up for?  Was helping to deal with an inevitable new pandemic that have always come along throughout history, and will continue to come along in the future not to be expected for someone who is a frontline healthcare worker?

Both of your posts are addressing areas - the risk to NHS being the same, (short answer being - no evidence for that),

and the suggestion that "this is what NHS nurses should have reasonably expected when they joined" (short answer being, LOL no)

- that have been addressed directly and more eloquently by others earlier in this thread.

Here you go:

https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/...

I will leave this here:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/

Given history, I wonder if Covid 19 is the last ever pandemic, or do you think there might be potentially others in the future that NHS staff signing up now might have to help out with?

This weeks radio 4 programme ‘more or less’ was interesting about the risk nhs staff faced. It’s worth a listen. 

As previous. This is cumulative total deaths, not corrected for age. Leaving aside the weakness of the data set used (news reports)

If you genuinely think nurses or doctors signed up to work in, let's say, A and E, with an expectation that they would end up on the frontline of a global health pandemic, then there's literally nothing I can say.

I'm astounded you would think that nurses or doctors would not be expected to deal with a global health pandemic.  I'm struggling to believe that you cant get your head around to understand that there have been 8 or so significant diseases classed as pandemics in the last 70 years yet this one was somehow unexpected?

Well there's plenty of NHS frontline staff on here. I'm happy for them to answer, rather than just rely on my anecdotal experience, from multiple recent visits to hospital A and E through work. Which would be a "No".

When was it, and I shall check it out?

Cheers

A global pandemic, was the last thing to rattle through my brain as I filled in a shed load of application forms while I was unemployed almost two decades ago. The army was out, because I did not want to get shot at along with not responding well to orders. And the police was also out because I did not like confrontation.

I didn't have a scooby what I was getting into. Thankfully I've not been shot at, however I have been smack bang in the centre of a few big fights of 20-30 people helping the police to restrain people to the ground. Most definitely not part of my day job but I could never look a police officer in the face again if I did not step up to the plate and assist when they were overwhelmed.

And as for a pandemic, beyond growing up in the 80's with AIDS and HIV I never gave the subject a second's thought.

Which, along with your previous comments about training opportunities, suggests that your employers need to have better staff training and induction. 
 

pandemics this bad are fairly rare events, but not so rare it’s unreasonable for you to have been given some related training over the last 20 years.

And how many Team Meetings do you think I've had while being on the road for the last 10 years?

I'll give you a clue, its a round number.

Absolutely. But could you honestly say you expected to be working on the frontline of something like this?

I receive JESIP training and I've worked critical incidents, but there's a massive difference between managing a mulit agency response to a massive arson and responding to a live terrorist incident.  

And there's also the difference between the training for the immediate response, management and triage, and the slightly less foreseen daily grind of exposing yourself to additional risk every shifts with life altering changes to routine and family.

Bollocks I'm afraid, I'm sat here with a colleague who's a 33 year veteran with the ambulance service and he can count on one hand how many times he'd had to don full PPE in the first 32.5 years of his career. He'd since lost count of that number by the second week in March. You keep banging on about the stats and how our occupation is perfectly safe, well according to the much quoted More Or Less there's a 1:19,000 fatality rate for people of working age in the UK. We've just had the 5th paramedic die out of 26,000 registered and since many of those paras aren't working in frontline roles, that's a fatality rate higher than 1:5000. And counting.

Every NHS worker who's responded on this thread has denied that they're heroes simply for going to work but that's not to deny that what's normally a high stress occupation has become quite harrowing on a regular basis. Not quite sure why you and other posters are quite so invested in insisting that the worst health crisis in living memory is all part and parcel of what we signed up for. It isn't.

Remember your training

"Tits and teeth, tits and teeth"

As in "be careful not to let the tits knock out your teeth" ?

Just smile and remember the path of least resistance.

Thanks for your level-headed response to that bizarre line of argument. What, sadly, surprises me about the internet - it shouldn't really, because I've seen enough shit in my lifetime - is just how many extremely bilious people still lurk in the shadows.

You raised this before and I tried to make the point that our scope of practice is wider than that of any other clinical role in the NHS. We are expected to deal with EVERYTHING. What pandemic training do you think would be beneficial for ambulance service staff, beyond doffing and donning protocols? What areas should be cut from our couple of days annual mandatory training? Perhaps less attention on stuff we only see occasionally (if we're very lucky) paediatric arrests? how about we cut maternal arrests or traumatic arrests? All on the off chance that another once in a century event comes along? Seriously?

Bilious or just with a different opinion to you?

Differences of opinion are fine, when the facts are in doubt. Your posts are more akin to coming across a heavily bleeding bloke slumped outside your local who's missing most of his teeth and insisting, at quite some length, that being repeatedly punched in the face isn't all that terrible.

No, literally and unarguably bilious. Another synonym would be spiteful.

My point would be that you should get more training than you and Lemming state that you do. 

if you have a very wide range of areas of responsibility then you need more, and more varied, training.

It might not need to be very much training for a rare event like this, but having it lurking as a “thing that could happen” at the back of your head is helpful, and engaging frontline workers in speculation about what they might need to do in scenario x could help future preparedness. 

As an example I probably got 1/2 hour of direct teaching related to FMD in my heavily loaded 5 years rammed with lectures undergraduate course - but that was enough as a basic primer for my cohort to know what to expect from a disease that had not hit our shores for a generation, but did just after we qualified. 

I certainly did not expect to spend my first Easter Sunday after graduating killing newborn lambs in front of a church, and placing families under lockdown - but it was not a complete surprise.

to be clear this is not a criticism of you or your colleagues, but it is of your training and ultimately your employers.

Really?  Then please tell me where people go when they are ill with an infectious disease?

Covid 19 doesn't kill everyone, it kills only a very small % of those that have it.  If that is so then I've become infected numerous times by a 'killer disease', having caught the common cold and the common flue a few times in my life.   And I've had household members ill with the flu aswell.  And no  PPE.  Many thousand die each year from the flu!!  
And just to be clear I'm not suggesting that that makes us all heroes.  

I've been training and working within the ambulance service since 2017. Up until two weeks ago I'd not heard of any colleagues dying of infectious diseases of any type. In the last two weeks 2 colleagues who were friends of friends have died after contracting CV19. You simply have no grasp of the magnitude of what we're facing, despite multiple posts where front line staff have tried to outline the enormity of what we are seeing first hand. This isn't hyperbole, there is absolutely no grandstanding or exaggeration in what is being posted. What is it that you are finding so difficult to grasp?

‘Hero’ is a media generated upwelling emotional response. I'd hate the handle if I worked in the NHS.
If I did, I wouldn’t be a hero, I’d just be a bit concerned for my own safety.

To an infectious disease unit. They don't routinely convert hospitals to red and green zones, and previously a "normal" patient to an a and e doesn't have a highly infectious fatal disease.

You aren't really trying to minimise the risk involved in this disease are you, both in terms of infection rates and risk of death?

Next you'll be talking about 5G...

Just to be clear if "us all" relates to normal everyday folk, I wasn't suggesting we were.

If you worked in the NHS you might well think that. If you are outside the NHS and are keen to argue that they really aren't heroes, there might be another word to describe you...

No argument there. The reality is that as a paramedic part of my responsibilities, if I wish to retain my professional registration, is that I commit to and document, an extensive program of continuous professional development which is to be undertaken in my own time, at my own expense. Given limited cash and time what do you think I'll concentrate on? Stuff that might crop up every couple of years or stuff that might never happen? Think of it in terms of house insurance; for every £100 of cover how much will you allocate to fire, theft and flood and how much to meteor strike? I've explained this in multiple ways, involving many different examples. If you still can't grasp my point I'm afraid there is nothing else I can add.

Yep. All day long.

And I’ve tried to explain that this sort of “out of context” event happens with reasonable frequency, and that having some form of prep at a practitioner level is helpful.

you will find that self funding compulsory training is common across many professions, as is self direction of that training. Certainly the case in my profession. 

My contention is that at some point you, or at least some proportion of your colleagues should have been exposed to the idea of this sort of event. As I said in my previous post the fact that this has not occurred is not your fault, it is the fault of the systems in place.

Look beyond the hysteria you’ve been fed by the media and you will see that there’s some equally valid opinions out there that differ from your own. Someone holding a different opinion to you does not mean they have any less respect for the NHS or it’s staff, so using this as excuse to virtue signal or resorting to the old chestnut that someone else’s opinion, one that’s not in keeping with your own somehow implies a dubious moral character is a pretty cheap shot to be honest.

He's not been fed media hysteria. He's been fed first hand accounts by frontline staff, frontline staff you keep ignoring on a thread you're contributing to.

Wife's colleague was buried last week. Consultant on her ward. Our very good A&E doctor friend has just about pulled through. So you can shove "Look beyond the hysteria you’ve been fed by the media" up your arse. 

Except that you clearly do have less respect. It is just part of their jobs, they aren't at any more risk than anyone else, and there are lots of people at more risk than them, appear to be the main thrust of your arguments.

Have you actually visited an A and E department recently?

Wot he said, by the bucket load.

Fair enough that’s tragic and a real shame, you have my sympathy.  However terrible this is though doesn’t change the fact that natural pandemics and diseases will always exist and to expect people not to die from them, or that if you work in the NHS to expect you’ll never have to deal with them is naive in the extreme.

We seem to forget that we will all die at some point of something and there’s nothing we can do about it - unless you can somehow beat nature into submission that is, but the evidence so far is that trying to do this seems to bring its own large problems.

Please accept my condolences.

Nope, you have just chosen to assume that.

FFS. It's naive to the extreme to think infectious global pandemics hitting the UK are a realistic expectation of any NHS staff, regardless of what "worst case scenario" exercises might be tested.

And dealing with the reality is a lot more sobering, frightening and long term than a few hours running a play scenario once every few years.

Along with the unexpected consequences - moving out of family homes, watching colleagues really die. Seeing real patients really die, and wondering whether their coughing has spread to it to you. Turning  up to work regardless

And some of us are able to do what we can to avoid it. Others have to go in to hospitals and care homes and directly help those who are infected with it and suffering. And then go home and try and do it all again the next day.

I can only go off what you've said. 

I don’t think hero is correct. It is our job and those of us in acute specialities ARE exposed every working day . We use PPE but wonder if the correct level of PPE is used in the relevant circumstances. The answer is unknown because we don’t know enough about this pathogen . For me , our Trust seems on the ball and supplies it mostly well. 
Generally, I feel lucky to have a well paid job , in no danger of becoming unemployed ( to say the least !) , and to be able to hopefully contribute to helping with this mess. 
 Having said that , it IS scary dealing with suspected or certain cases in unpredictable circumstances. I have plenty of colleagues who have been very ill indeed who don’t fit the classic demographic. A lot of healthcare workers and caregivers are at risk of a high viral load , every day they go to work ,  some colleagues are not seeing family members as they have to stay in hotels due to domestic health risks. 
 Overall I feel lucky to be employed and able to do something, although it is , from time to time a little unsettling. 
Looking forward to some top cragging in the summer !! 

It was this weeks so Wednesday at 9am. Repeated this weekend but obviously available on bbc sounds. The previous weeks was also good. 

Since there's a lot of arguing about defining heroism i'll offer my yardstick. For me a hero is someone who does something outwith his role in order to help.

So if 'deep fryer technician Jaime' from McDonalds jumps into a house on fire to rescue a trapped person = Hero

'Firefighter Mike' jumps over the counter and into the kitchen at Maccy Dees when it's jam-packed to get the fries out on time? = F*cking hero

'DfR Jaime' cooking fries or 'Firefighter Mike' getting people out of burning houses? Meh, just people doing the jobs they applied to do and get paid for.

Where do the NHS folks fit in this? Not a scooby, but what's undeniable is that many are working harder than they were meant to, with an increased risk to what would be expected, the mindf*ck of this virus all around them, and to top it off for a laugh they are being f*cked about with the PPE that should be in place to protect them, so if it helps some of the them to be called heroes there's no harm in that

There will be plenty of time when this is done and dusted to nitpick on definitions and work out they should not have been heroes and get some corporate negligence cases on the go

I am assuming you might have made wrong assumptions based on the way you’ve chosen to interpret what I’ve said as filtered via on your own bias. we are alll bias to some extent, me included.

I’ve clearly said that I hold a lot of respect for the NHS and their staff. I am deeply grateful for their work during these troubled times and I am deeply sorry if NHS staff loose lives because of it.

In the midst of hysteria though I think it’s important to put things into perspective. Many people have lost lives due to Covid, not just NHS staff and the rate of loss is roughly the same whether inside or outside the NHS. That’s not my opinion, it is evidence based so please don’t shoot the messenger just because it does not fit in with your argument.

What I am also not going to do is subscribe to the theory that a pandemic of this nature is unrealistic or unforeseeable. A sizeable pandemic was always going to occur at some point - that’s natures way and has been for as long as there have been humans on this planet. Sadly both the government and the NHS were under prepared for it seemingly. If you don’t like this view then again I am sorry but I suggest you take your argument up with nature itself rather than me.

I'm assuming he's made correct assumptions based on what you've posted.

Saying you have a lot of respect for someone whilst pissing all over their lived experiences presents something of a contradiction.

And what exactly is your perspective? Must be mind blowingly comprehensive given that you've taken it upon yourself to instruct people actually working through this that they're simply hysterics whose imaginations have presumably run away with them.

No shit Sherlock. You're talking to people who filled in the diagnosis of death forms.

I've already pointed out that this is bollocks. Lumping the entirety of the NHS together and extrapolating casualty rates is worthless. I'm sure NHS tech support have very few fatalities, ICU staff aren't going to be so lucky.

So you saw a Global pandemic coming in your own lifetime? An event that has seen a level of worldwide quarantine unprecedented in the entirety of human history? An economic downturn of a rapidity and severity also unprecedented? A mobilisation of the Globe's entire healthcare system. 750,000 volunteers signed up in the UK alone and temporary hospitals constructed in major cities all across the county?

You saw all that coming did you? Obvious was It? 

Well you're either a world class f*cking genius, or you're a f*cking liar.

Doesn't this apply to any hero, I can't think of any person who's done heroic things that think they are a hero.

Someone tells you they are a hero, they are probably a wanker.

You tell someone they're a hero and they tell you they're not, they might be a hero.

Yes, very serious pandemics happen every few years.  There have been 8 or so major ones in the last 70 years.  We have been very lucky with MERS, SARS, Swine Flu and Ebola recently but if as an NHS nurse or doctor and you're chosen to think that something like these could never ever happen in the UK then you've either had your head in the sand, or you've not been properly trained. 

The reaction to this one has been strange, seemingly out of all proportion to the actual mortality rate.  It has been our reaction to this disease, not the disease itself that has caused the huge economic downturn we are now facing, which in turn will damage NHS funding for the generation ahead.  How many of those volunteers have we needed?  Almost none.  How much of those temporary hospitals capacity has been required?  Almost none.   How many hospitals have been overwhelmed?  None of them according to Boris Johnson who said the other night “At no stage has our NHS been overwhelmed, no patient went without a ventilator, no patient was deprived of intensive care".

We will never know if the above has been down to the preparations we have made, or whether indeed this virus is far less serious than the grim death rate predicted by one model that panicked everyone, our government included.  I suspect it's a bit of the first and quite a lot of the second.  What you can guarantee though is that whatever the above, the government will claim it as a success in any case due to their strong lockdown and prudent planning, whatever the outcome.

Thank you for swearing at me again for holding an opinion that differs to your own.  Are you sure that there is no hysteria?

I've read what you've written and responded to what you've posted. 

It's not evidence based. The responses dismissing or disagreeing with your stats have never been answered by you.

Lol. So just to add to the "respect" for the NHS that I added earlier, the staff are also idiots as they should have realised that going to work in anesthesiology was actually going to be an inevitable walk in to the front lines of a pandemic.

You've literally had NHS staff on here flag up that each and every one of your "perspectives" is wrong, and yet you keep digging.

I have already posted some links to studies done, and examples of previous pandemics so if you have chosen not to read, or to dismiss these then that is your choice.

I have never used the word idiot - it is you who has suggested that in your desire to discredit my argument. 

Respect does not mean you have to agree with everything that is said by someone, particularly when there are plenty of people out there saying different things.  We have several friends and family members working in frontline NHS and all are reporting that things are running fine in their areas.  One is saying that they have never seen the hospital so quiet.  I'm sure things could be different in other areas of the country but please tell me why should I take the opinion of some shouty people on an internet forum with motives unknown, or the frequent hysterical and sensationalist headlines pedaled by the media, over the first hand on the ground experience as told by the NHS workers I trust and have actually spoken to?

I replied to your linked article about fatality risk, flagging its flaws. Silence.

Oh right, so a frontline cop and frontline paramedics who disagree with you are just "shouty people on the internet". Keep that respect coming.

And, despite your wriggling, I've never suggested "everyone in the NHS is a hero". You've been pretty clear about saying no-one is.

There's that respect again. F@cking idiots, should have listened to that 30min lecture. Obviously Northern Star was prepared and had already stockpiled toilet roll.

Huh...?  

Good job we have Northern Star to suspect things for us. If only you had been advising government, with your epidemiological and virology skills, we could have just ignored this "hardly infectious at all and not very lethal" virus and carried on as normal.

To be honest when you are resorting to posting circular, ill-thought through, ill-informed bollox like this, I'm not surprised people are losing patience.  

You've said nothing even remotely constructive there I'm afraid.  As I suspected you've formed your opinion and your mind remains firmly shut.  A key life skill is listening to others.  You don't have to agree with them but if you open your mind you can usually discuss the issue at hand and find some common ground, perhaps learning some valuable perspective in the process.  Unfortunately it seems you are not there yet and yourself and Stickplate it would seem, would prefer to resort to insults, swearing and trying to twist the other persons argument in such a way that it discredits and misrepresents them. 

I was just trying to show a different perspective, that's all.  It's a perspective that differs from that the one that has been spoon fed to the UK public by the media and the government.  Many people have tried to voice different opinions, many people feel this way out of concern for our NHS and society in general, but frequently they are shut down by small minded internet bullies like you two.

Anyway, no need to get your knickers in a twist and I'm off for some breakfast.  Enjoy your echo chamber in the meantime!

I'll pass it on, thanks. 

I've listened to others. I've repeatedly and specifically responded to your posts and the points within them. (Unlike your failure to respond to mine, and others criticisms of your "evidence". Then you resort to some tangential post about how then Nightingale hospitals aren't full so they were a bit unnecessary and thebrisk of COVID19 probably isn't that bad, in your opinion. 

I'm not sure I've got the words, the time, or the inclination to start at the beginning. Again.

You can voice whatever opinion you want. Just be aware that your opinion also has a consequence. And the your opinion in this case has been dismissive of the risk faced by NHS frontline staff, derogatory about their lack of expectation of this pandemic. 

This is UKC.  I've never found anywhere less like an echo chamber.

The  fact that you are struggling to find support for your arguments doesn't make it an echo chamber. It might just mean you are wrong. 

Let's look at those pandemics from your link then and see if we can assess their impact on the UK.

Ebola: Err, that'd be one case in the UK. A nurse who contracted Ebola in Sierra Leone, flew home and recovered. No UK community transmission.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease_in_the_United_Kingdom

MERS: Four cases in the UK. All contracted in the Middle East. Three fatalities. No UK community transmission.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Middle_East_respiratory_syndrome_coronav...

SARS: Four cases in the UK. Zero fatalities. No UK community transmission.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/sars/

Swine Flu: At last something that was actually transmitted within the UK! 138 fatalities.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/swine-flu-deaths-examined/

Hong Kong Flu: Finally, an actual honest to God pandemic in the UK. 30,000 deaths over between 1968 and 1970.

Asian Flu: Again a real pandemic in the UK. 14,000 deaths.

https://bjgp.org/content/59/565/622

Shit! You were right! 44,000 pandemic fatalities in the UK over the last HUNDRED YEARS.

Covid 19: 28,131 deaths IN THREE MONTHS. 

....can you see where I'm going with this??? We haven't seen anything of the magnitude of Covid 19 in the UK in living memory.

You haven't got an argument. To have an argument you'd have to engage with the points being raised that disagree with your position. What you have is a badly thought out set of poorly informed opinions. 

Edit: Sorry, I've not pointed out the obvious. Those 28,000 Covid deaths occurred despite every clinician and care provider wearing PPE for every interaction at work, an unprecedented, legally enforced social lock down and the virtual cessation of international travel. Measures completely unprecedented in human history. God alone knows what the death rate would have been otherwise.  But of course you have a completely arse over tit take on the success of those measures and an incredibly dismissive view of those 28,000 deaths. As you said:

I'm not sure what your point is, do you think you're a hero? Because you seem to deny it but you lay into anyone who explains why you're not.

As a paramedic I'm sure everyone appreciates the job you're doing regardless of whether or not there is a pandemic on. And I think everyone acknowledges that in the current situation your job is harder and it's risk has increased. What more do you want?

As I said much earlier, compare that to a checkout worker at a supermarket. Paid significantly less, no public campaigns or clap's for them, little choice but to keep working, risk has gone from practically zero to being exposed to 100's of people a day with minimal protection. (shops around me are using makeshift screens made of cling film for instance). Now no one is saying they are hero's either, they are just quietly getting on with things and doing their jobs in difficult circumstances and so should you.

I'm having a go at him for dismissing the severity of a global pandemic. I would have thought that obvious as you're replying to a post that is entirely about the severity of covid 19 in comparison to similar events over the last century. 

Stickplate, I'd happily debate with you but unfortunately when you started swearing and becoming hysterical, I am now a little reluctant to do so.

We have been very lucky with SARS, Swine Flu etc.  In the meantime consider this.  Once Covid 19 had passed, another major pandemic will certainly happen again at some point in the not too distant future.  Maybe the next one will be not quite so serious, maybe it will be far more serious.  If this affects the UK then our healthcare system will be required to deal with it.  If you are a current or future nurse or a doctor this means that you will almost certainly have to deal with it.  If you can't accept this then perhaps a medical profession isn't the one for you.

None of the above implies that I am anti-NHS as you like to claim.  Far from it, I am very grateful for our fantastic NHS staff.  I am all for valuing our healthcare professionals more highly, improving their working conditions and increasing tax if needed to ensure that our NHS is properly funded.

You didn't engage with any of the points raised before I swore, you didn't engage with any of the points after I swore. You haven't engaged with any of the points raised by posters who haven't sworn at all. 

and yet again you haven't engaged with any of the points raised, just ploughed on with the same discredited opinion. 

If you'd like to evidence anywhere that I've written you're anti-NHS? Oh, Sorry, you aren't big on evidence are you? Your big thing is baseless opinion.

It seems odd that you are unable to grasp the fact that those doing a hard, and in my view heroic job, are quite welcome to say, no - I don't feel I'm a hero. That's a massively different perspective from someone from the comfort of their own armchair, saying - I don't think you are a hero and then minimising the risk and criticising their lack of forethought when joining the NHS.

It displays a pretty stunning lack of empathy, though to be honest an understanding of empathy has been lacking in many of your posts about COVID 19.

Literally not what Northern Star has said - the risk apparently is the same!

And I'd expect that if someone started posting in here that a checkout worker really shouldn't complain, because let's face it, they should have expected to be working in a pandemic and their jobs are perfectly safe anyway - then that person might well a hard time as well.

Though your last sentence is a stunner.  And worth repeating.

"they are just quietly getting on with things and doing their jobs in difficult circumstances and so should you."

I tried to join the RAF when I was 18.  It was explained very clearly that I might be required to go and kill someone as part of my job, and that if I couldn't accept that then the job might not be for me. 

Did I blindly think, oh well there's not been a big war since WW2 and another war is unlikely so it doesn't really matter and perhaps I'll just happily fly round dropping bombs on practice targets for my whole career?  No I took that responsibility very seriously.  I realised that I would not be happy to kill someone and I decided that I might be more suited to another career instead.

Stickplate, if you can't accept that the NHS and its courageous staff would never be required to deal with a major pandemic if and when it inevitably came along and as they have done through the whole of human history, then perhaps this really isn't the career for you.  You are completely free to go and do another job.  It's no problem and no one is stopping you.

Please be aware though that there are many other jobs out there, many with worse pay and conditions than the NHS, where workers, despite Covid19, are exposed to far more risk of serious injury, illness and death than a career in the frontline NHS would ever entail.  This is not an attempt to de-value the NHS before you misinterpret what I have said again.  It is simply reality.

This could be applied to NHS workers, bus driver, supermarket staff ect.

Then the thread could end and NorthernStar and LordAsh can stop needlessly winding up key workers.

We are not needlessly winding people up.  Just trying to put an element of reality and perspective among the hysteria and repetition of spoon fed media rubbish, so that we can have more a more balanced discussion.  Clearly this is a discussion others would simply prefer to sweep under the carpet.

I know a few people working in hospitals, including one in an ICU ward, an I've chatted to them. I went shopping on Wedenesday. I'm in daily contact with my colleagues from work.

If there was widespread hysteria I would have experienced it, but I haven't. People are mostly calmly going about their business.

Generally, there is a problem with respect for health and care workers from the rudest of society (saw it fist hand when my Dad was in hospital). I imagine this is trying in normal times, but if you are spending the day in uncomfortable PPE, or faffing about taking it on and off all day, your patience threshold might be lower. If the repeated talk of respect for health workers makes these people think twice before gobbing off at the mo... then it's probably worth it. 

Apologies. You obviously have deep insight into this matter acquired from the lofty heights of something else that you haven't actually done. That facet of service had entirely passed me by. Silly me, still what would I know about it, I only served in an infantry battalion in Germany at the height of the Cold War. 

Same old line. Still no engagement with the actual experience of pandemics in the UK over the last century. Let me run that by you once more... Pandemic deaths in the UK over the last 100 years: 44,000. Pandemic deaths in the UK over the last 3 months despite unprecedented efforts at containment: 28,000.

Yep, and much like when I enlisted as an infantryman those risks were know. I'll just reiterate a previous post that you also left unanswered (way before you got all upset at a couple of nasty words)

"I'm sat here with a colleague who's a 33 year veteran with the ambulance service and he can count on one hand how many times he'd had to don full PPE in the first 32.5 years of his career. He'd since lost count of that number by the second week in March. You keep banging on about the stats and how our occupation is perfectly safe, well according to the much quoted More Or Less there's a 1:19,000 fatality rate for people of working age in the UK. We've just had the 5th paramedic die out of 26,000 registered and since many of those paras aren't working in frontline roles, that's a fatality rate higher than 1:5000. And counting."

That's priceless. You've taken it upon yourself to inject "an element of reality and perspective among the hysteria and repetition of spoon fed media rubbish"

You wouldn't recognise reality if it fell on you. Your big claim to insight into risk in public service is from when you nearly joined the RAF! 

I truly apologise for swearing at you earlier. I now see the error of my ways. I shouldn't have got a bit miffed, I should have just had a good laugh instead.

1 - You haven't actually addressed any of the criticism of your papers suggesting not risk.

2 - You haven't actually addressed any of the criticism of your suggestion that it was a reasonable expectation of staff when why signed up.

3- You haven't really addressed any of the specific accounts of front-line professionals telling you directly of their experience.

4- You seem to be dismissing any criticism as "spoon fed media hysteria" despite it coming from people with actual first hand experience.

5 - No-one is "sweeping it under the carpet". We are still engaging with you. God knows why.

So you think they are hero's? Well that's your opinion, the term is rather hazy as to its exact definition. That's all well and good but it sounds like you're saying they are hero's and as hero's they'll be naturally modest and deny they are hero's if asked, however all around them must accept they are in fact hero's and treat them as such.

Well I do not think a paramedic is a hero, even in this situation. Is their job harder? Probably. Is their job more risky than usual, possibly, (increased risk of catching an illness Vs decreased risk of getting attacked on the Friday/Saturday night town centre shifts).

Again maybe that's just my opinion of the definition of "hero". If a paramedic arrived in his ambulance at a raging house fire and the fire brigade were delayed. Then heard childen inside and concluded if they waited for the firemen it would be to late so went into the burning building with no safety kit to save the children. That would make them a hero, possibly reckless but certainly a hero. Why? Because he's knowingly taking a near certain risk of injury and a significant risk to his life, 1/2 sort of odds, to save others. Not complaining on the internet how they have crunched some numbers and decided their risk has gone up to a 1 in many thousands chance of dieing. Especially on climbing forum where we normally take those sort of odds just for our weekend fun.

I think what I'm saying is being a hero is generally a single one off act, it's not a day job.

A better term is bravery. If your day to day job carries a certain level of risk you could be described as brave for continuing to do, especially if the risk increases for some reason. 

That would certainly better for my supermarket workers scenario, they didn't sign up for any real risk of anything but now are being forced to take on a risk of infection to carry out fairly mundane but arguably essential work. Are they braver for sticking with it than someone who has signed up for a job that carries risk but the risk has slightly increased?

My wife for example has signed up as a volunteer at the local pop-up Covid19 ward, she literally has signed up to be exposed to the risk of catching Covid19 simply to help other people and will get no pay for it in return. Is she more brave than a paramedic complaining he didn't sign up for this level of risk?

Who knows none of them are hero's and shouldn't be treated as such but they can be acknowledged for their efforts and bravery where relevant and as I've said a few times, we all appreciate the work done by paramedics and health care workers and what they are doing at this time. But right now it's the time to knuckle down and get on with things, the time for complaining can come afterwards.

We've repeatedly said we aren't heroes. The reason fatality rates came up in the first place was because you brought them up on this thread when you wrote "The death rate within the NHS is far lower than in the general population due to most staff not being in at risk categories despite the increased exposure." Pardon me for correcting you. I suppose I should have just let it pass and not pointed out that as far as frontline staff goes it's a gross misrepresentation of the actual facts. I suppose I should just shut up altogether, I mean how dare an NHS worker actually have an opinion on a thread about NHS workers. As you wrote when previously replying to me "Now no one is saying they are hero's either, they are just quietly getting on with things and doing their jobs in difficult circumstances and so should you." So I'll retire from this thread and allow the better informed such as yourself more space to pontificate. 

Oh and it's heroes. Not hero's. I wouldn't normally correct someone's spelling but you've written it like that about a dozen times now and its starting to make my eyes hurt.

Edit: > Is she more brave than a paramedic complaining he didn't sign up for this level of risk?

You're really good at gross misrepresentation aren't you? Not made any such complaint. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Stickplate, you are still insistently trying to deny the reality that serious pandemics come along from time to time and can be reasonably expected to come along again in the future.  Also the evidence really isn't there at the moment with sufficient reliability to draw your other conclusions. 

For example it cannot be proven with any certainty how a healthcare worker with Covid19 caught that disease.  Would this be more likely in a hospital where measures (which could be better I'm sure) are in place to protect workers, or could this be simply from the general environment?  Are all front line NHS staff at increased risk, or is it simply those working in dedicated Covid19 treatment wards?  We do not yet know and there are many unanswered questions. 

One thing we do know is that the percentage of NHS staff from the Asian, Black and other ethnic groups is significantly higher than the percentage among the working age population of the UK in general.  Sadly it is becoming apparent that people from ethnic groups might be quite a bit more susceptible to this virus than the general population so I'm sure some urgent work needs to be done in this area so that we can reduce the risk for these groups.  The higher prevalence of Covid19 deaths in densely populated urban areas where Asian, Black and other ethnic groups tend to work and reside in greater numbers is also of concern.  You can see though how these issues could potentially skew any stats when trying to compare NHS deaths to the working population in general.

I have no intention to wind you up but clearly I am.  I am sorry for that, and therefore I see no point trying to labour my points any further.  Good luck whatever you decide is best for your career and family, I hope that you remain healthy, thank you for your hard work and best wishes.

I'm not apologising, or regretting one single second for my outburst last night.

This sad/distressing turn of discussion had me up at 4am this morning mulling over all sorts of weird shit that has happened this year.

Its a shame that Girlymonkey's original question has morphed into something with such emotional and polarising views that I feel there is no way to reconcile views between contributors.

Lets not forget that people such as Girlymonkey are front and centre of this pandemic, as well as countless humble people going about their lives keeping this society plodding along with PPE that is as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

So what you want is indeed an echo chamber?

People have different views, that's whats makes society interesting and diverse provided those views of course are not racist, homophobic, abusive etc, etc. there's really no need to swear at people and become angry just because someone challenges your view, or because someone's view happens to be different to your own. 

To quote something I read recently which I think is very apt:

WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME BOAT ...

I heard that we are all in the same boat, but it's not like that. We are sailing in the same storm, but not in the same boat. Your ship could be shipwrecked and mine might not be. Or vice versa.

For some, quarantine is optimal. A moment of reflection, of re-connection, easy in flip flops, with a cocktail or coffee. For others, this is a desperate financial & family crisis.

For some that live alone they're facing endless loneliness. While for others it is peace, rest & time with their mother, father, sons & daughters.

Some are bringing in extra money with endless overtime, Others are working more hours for less money due to pay cuts or loss in sales. Others no longer have a job.

Some families of 4 will receive £5000 per month from the stimulus while other families of 4 will see £0 for the duration of it.

Some were concerned about getting a certain chocolate for Easter while others were concerned if there would be enough bread, milk and eggs for the weekend.

Some want to go back to work because they don't qualify for unemployment and are running out of money. Others want to kill those who break the quarantine and are seen outside.

Some are home spending 2-3 hours/day helping their child with online schooling while others are spending 2-3 hours/day to educate their children on top of a 10-12 hour workday.

Some have experienced the near death of the virus, some have already lost someone from it and some are not sure if their loved ones are going to make it. Others don't believe this is a big deal.

Some have faith and expect miracles during this 2020. Others say the worst is yet to come.

So, friends, we are not in the same boat. We are going through a time when our perceptions and needs are completely different.

Each of us will emerge, in our own way, from this storm. It is very important to see beyond what is seen at first glance. Not just looking, actually seeing.

We are all on different ships during this storm experiencing a very different journey so don't judge others by what's happening in your boat, we are all just fighting our way through the storm.
Good luck to you all and we'll see you in the calm.

Your default response to disagreement appears to be complaining about an echochamber.  It certainly isn't to address any of the disagreements.

How the hell you think that quote about not judging others translates in to your succession of posts where you have literally judged others, suggesting NHS staff go and find another job because they "obviously" should have predicted a pandemic and that, in your opinion, they aren't at any more risk than anyone else.., I have no idea.

I'm struggling to think of a more tone-deaf post, but I'm sure you'll manage one.

There’s also just more stress. Ignore the risk of disease (which is certainly magnified and the stress of making their family sick is massive). They are just seeing more die. Medics who have spent a career working on cancer patients are now being redeployed. I know of one psychiatrist who is now in an ER.

They aren’t used to 10s of people dying, my wife’s an oncologist, she loses the odd patient, they have time to prepare the patient and family. They are now redeployed to ICUs or ERs and dealing with many dying who aren’t ready and can’t have family with them and many times in a shift. It’s a massive mental toll.
 

An ER doc in NY just took her own life. 4-6 weeks of this was too much, she’d decades of experience in the ER before this hit.

I've tried to but all that comes back in response is verbal abuse, and a strong sense that the person issuing that verbal abuse is not even prepared to consider an alternative view to that of their own view.  They have also denied that the risk of a serious global pandemic occurring should even be considered by those embarking on a career in the healthcare service as a profession.

That's not judging others, it's just common sense to say that when (not if) a contagious pandemic comes along then NHS staff will be required to deal with it.  Who else would NHS staff expect we get to deal with it?

Thank you once again for your kind words.  I give up I really do.  You'll be glad of that no doubt but that would only go on to prove more clearly that your mindset is firmly closed.

The Hong Kong flu in 68/69 was actually worse in the second year with about 80% of deaths, and that concentrated in a 4 month period. Given the smaller population at the time this makes the mortality fairly similar between then and now. 
 

it’s a bit worrying that in that pandemic the second peak in the U.K. was loads higher than the first!

It's actually precisely why people get involved. Firstly they know that they can deal with it, confidence in the training and in themselves. I'm a firm believer that everyone should be taught first aid rigourously from a young age but I've seen many civilian trained adults recoil in horror from gory but non life threatening injuries. In my opinion is that it's not due to a weakness or bullshit like that but due to incomplete training. We were very lucky we practiced on robotic dummy's with fake pulses spraying pigs blood in the USA and realistic injury mockups applied to those who had lost limbs in combat. They really knew how to act the part too...

Good training is the key, anyone can do it. By the end of one particular course I was lucky to attend the biggest numpty in the group was able to deal with a tension pneumothorax and heamothorax in a smoke filled room. Quite frankly med training was always my favourite. 

I may be a few years out of date, although at the age of 50+, having served in the cold war I'm thinking you're more out of date than me, although I can vouch that from a reliable source cold war SF medics also underwent training within the NHS often working in innercity trauma units to learn about different wounds.

I've seen enough badged blokes undergoing training in greens, it's even on bloody Instagram these days FFS. When else do you think Nimsdai got his paramedic photo? These guys aren't RAMC attached arms in a support role.

Paramedic is legally protected title that requires years of training in university, hospitals and on the road to earn. Training in greens doesn't make you a paramedic and everyone in the ambulance service isn't a paramedic either. I spent a week training on a maternity ward, that doesn't mean I'm a midwife. As has already been amply demonstrated on this thread, a little knowledge only equips you to be confidently misinformed.

They're little more qualified than your standard paramedics. The guys work with the HEMS teams. Edit: at least in trauma, which is what's relevant for their job. 

They are practiced in the really complicated procedures which are not conducted by ambulance based paramedics and require a doctor on scene to administer. Dealing with things like cardiac tamponade and other serious conditions outside of hospital. 

Helis don't carry baggage, every crew member is mission critical so you can't really say they're just along for the ride and they certainly don't fly the chopper. Title or not they do the job and I imagine many paramedics would say it takes a lot of work and only the best get into a HEMS team. 

You’re original statement was that they were “fully qualified NHS trained paramedics”. This is not the case. Out of interest, just what procedures do you imagine unqualified medics are employing to deal with cardiac tamponade outside of hospitals? 
 

...and in the the U.K. HEMS medical staff are either paramedics or doctors. The pilots arent trained to tech level, let alone performing advanced medical procedures 

Three nurses at my hospital have died so far.

☹️

Awful news. 😔 

I once had the experience of transferring a set of premature, but well, set of twins. The regional transport team were busy so a regular ambulance was ordered. When they arrived it turned out they were from Saint Johns Ambulance. When I explained the details of what was planned they went a bit pale. But after a but of discussion with the consultant I took them. They were like two peas in a pod inside the transport incubator!

In reply to JohnBson:

I have no idea about the rights and wrongs of your argument, but I would suggest that now is not the right time to be picking a fight with an overworked overstressed underappreciated paramedic. A little bit of leeway might not go amiss. 

And yet he's posting on a public forum, of course someone's going to argue with him. Wouldn't be living up to UKC standards. Raging arguements are par for the course and he's definitely giving as good as he gets. 

I am a paramedic and I do not think we are heroes. I am ex military and feel hero should be used for extraordinary feats of bravery and going well past what is expected. We are just doing our job that we are paid for all being at an horrendous time. All we are doing is our job. In all honesty I would rather be home with the family but hey ho that's life. Stay safe.

👍👍

I don't know about extraordinary feats of bravery, but carrying on regardless without the PPE that you should have is well past what is expected imo.  Or it should be anyway.

That's why I found it so odd to hear normal elf'n'safety concerns from the before time on the radio the other day - employers worried about their legal liabilities if they get their risk assessments wrong as they open up for business again post lockdown. 

I've often been annoyed at work in the past by being required to wear PPE by risk-averse contractors and the like when it wasn't necessary.  (Hi-viz vests in brightly lit indoor spaces, that kind of thing.)  I've never been expected to carry on without it when it was necessary.

Ha.  Well good on you.  I'll resist the temptation to point out that that's exactly the sort of thing a hero would say, but nah, whether it's heroic or not you're definitely doing a bit more than just the job.

Forgetting about the pandemic for a second I think a great many staff in the NHS have been doing more than just the job for a good few years actually, or it already would have fallen apart by now.

There is that, but clearly under stress when he has free time. 
 

As an ex NHS worker what most would like to see, is proper funding and staffing for the service, with a resulting reduction in work load and stress.

After the COVID situation resolves I would hope all these people who think the NHS is so wonderful, to get behind it in a concerted campaign for proper funding.

I would suggest, unfortunately, that many of those most vocally declaring "NHS are heroes" and invoking wartime spirit etc. are the very ones who will, once this is (hopefully) over, return to their right-wing attitude of "I'm alright Jack", their private hospitals, and their view that the NHS, Social Security et al are to be denigrated and ideally closed down.

They're only mouthing what they think decent people want to hear just to sound good, and that's a sad reflection on the political schism in this and other countries. Worryingly they currently have the government they want for their end view to triumph.

That doesn't explain why the Boris bus appealed to the same demographic,  though

So do you think they are heroes?

How do you define hero ?

In theory any "hero" should deserve the George Medal.

How many people do you believe, in this current situation, deserve to be awarded the George Medal ?

After the egg-and-spoon race I won a medal. Proudest day of my little life, especially when I could eat my medal in assembly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pikaluk/4393566284

interesting point there, not exactly sure how the government are or can be seen as guilty of HSE violations? from a complete neutral, what are your thoughts? 

Unfortunately not the case with honours and awards, as per the military when a Unit perform above and beyond the people leading that force get the medal, some very definitely deserved some should absolutely hang their heads in shame......I think you may see the latter in this case.

Unfortunately, you'll deal with exactly the same scenario that every other service does, you'll be forgotten about and be on the same wages and this pandemic will flutter away into the past.

In years to come you'll have the fall out of PTSD that no one but colleagues will see or care about it, prepare yourselves the same as the military had to.

interesting point there, not exactly sure how the government are or can be seen as guilty of HSE violations? from a complete neutral, what are your thoughts? 

As I wrote that I was thinking to myself, bet they can hide behind executive privilege.