UKC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62956842

So pay to stay overnight in Wales. No idea what the administration costs would be but unless the charge was quite high I struggle to see them making much money out of the idea.

In reply to PaulW:

Hope they're not planning to charge campers the same as hotel stays or it could massively increase the price of camping if it is an appreciable amount...

Am curious what this will mean for wild camping and whether it will be an excuse to make life a lot more difficult for wild camping (while probably also not really deterring the fly campers...). 

Also won't have any impact on day trippers which seems a bit counter productive to the tourism industry as people staying overnight spend much more money over their stay I'd imagine... 

I don't like the idea tbh as it's effectively an extra barrier to accessing nice places, and an implication that poor people from grubby crowded cities should stay put and leave the nice places for people lucky enough to live there or with higher incomes.  We have enough barriers like that already. At the same time I can see why cash strapped local authorities need to incur extra expenses to deal with the impact of tourism that they struggle to get from other sources (central government certainly isn't plugging the gap...) and maybe this is the best compromise they could come up with. 

In reply to PaulW:

I'd love to see this include a free local public transport ticket, e.g. camping at Gwern Gof * would include one for the Snowdon Sherpa buses.  Might get some cars off Pen y Pass.

It is pretty much universal in European countries and is usually somewhere around three quid, though I would say there would be a better argument to make it a percentage (10% maybe?) taking into account that £3 on a camping night is swingeing but you could easily charge £20 on a £200 luxury hotel night without those people really noticing.

Wild camping is a good point, it flat isn't allowed in Switzerland if I recall but I don't know about other European countries, but I can't see a quid on a night's camping (say) causing more fly-camping.  Vans might be more interesting, I have suggested before the National Parks could have no free parking at all for any vehicle, and you'd need to purchase a disc from a garage or similar (or register online) to park anywhere during your stay, which permanent residents could have either for free or a very nominal charge.

In reply to PaulW:

Wild camping, overnight van stays (in lay-bys) would be encouraged by this and those examples are already at levels causing friction in some places. I think this would make those worse.

Something needs doing to put more back into the local communities, whatever is done certainly won't please all the people all the time

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Are these things an issue in other European countries where tourist taxes have been in place basically forever?

I'm not sure if I prefer this or a ban on free parking.  I think I tend towards the latter, as then those who come to the Park by public transport or bicycle get a nice little encouragement.

In reply to PaulW:

"As well as Welsh people staying within Wales" - what a bloody stupid idea. So if someone from South Wales takes their kids to visit Auntie Blodwyn in the north they have to pay the Welsh government for the privilege.

Then you have the Rugby - just how many Welsh men (and indeed women) travel to watch the match and make an overnight stay of it. The visitors certainly have to.

I had a motorbike accident in Wales 2 years ago, which led to an enforced stay in Newport hospital, would I have been liable to pay under this proposed legislation ?

Then there's club huts - I can see people "forgetting" to sign in.

Then I officiate for Welsh Athletics on a regular basis, along with a number of other English Officials - partly because there aren't enough Officials in Wales to do the job. This would mean an extra bill for Welsh Athletics every meeting that we have to stay overnight.  (2 day meetings, early starts, and meetings in Swansea tend to cause this). I'm sure that other sports are in the same situation.

There's only one answer - start charging the Welsh to stay in England, beginning with their MP's and MP's assistants. When these get p1ssed off they might tell Drakeford to stop being a stupid t***.

On a serious note, I imagine this would be the death knell to B&B's in Wales, and serious damage to the hotel sector. It would also mean that people would stay overnight somewhere just in England, and do their "touristying" on a daily basis. If Drakeford brought in a "Pay to enter" charge then God knows how many other businesses would go to the wall.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Dunno, I recently paid I think €15??? local tax for a 10 night stay in Corfu (for the whole family). At those bargain levels I don't think it'd cause problems.

Not sure how they handle overnight vans or wild/fly camping in Corfu, I don't think those are significant issues there though but they definitely are in Snowdonia, so e.g. Corfu/Snowdonia might not be a perfect comparison. 

In reply to fred99:

Somehow, most European countries (and many other countries around the world) seem to manage with tourist taxes without small accommodation providers going bust. I wonder what it is about the Welsh experience which renders it quite so apocalyptic? 

In reply to fred99:

If they stay in paid for accommodation yes, if they stay in Auntie Blodwyn’s spare room. Same as if they were travelling from England or further afield. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Well, quite.

Whether to apply it to camping is an interesting question, but seriously, nobody is going to notice three quid even on a lowest-rate Travelodge room.  And three quid is the top end of what it typically is throughout Europe.  And whether it applies to old Aunt Doris's house or not nobody will pay it there.

Camping is an issue, though.  Perhaps a reduced rate of £1 could be applicable to camping nights below say £15 increased by RPI each year (I don't see why people on high-cost full-service touring caravan sites, for instance, shouldn't pay full whack).  Or perhaps a percentage - if you're in a £200/night luxury hotel you won't be put off by an extra £20, and on a £5/night basic campsite 10% would be 50p, you'll spend that down the pub.

In reply to Neil Williams:

In France, the tourist tax is applied on a sliding scale, according to the quality of the accommodation. Outside Paris, for 1- and 2-star campsites, it is 0.20 euros per per person night, all the way up to 4 euros per person per night for a palace. Paris adds another 25%, so the maximum is 5 euros for a palace in Paris. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

That (both the idea and the amounts) sounds about right to me.

In reply to PaulW:

I think it's a great idea. Doesn't need to be a massive tax, an amount that wouldn't be too noticable to anyone paying it but would add up to a reasonable income overall. 

Getting something back from the tax, like free public transport, would be a good idea. Tourists see the benefit to paying the tax and it should cut down on the number of cars used in busy locations.

For example, in Chamonix you pay €0.60 per person per night in a 3-5 star campsite, going up to €3.00 pppn in a 5 star hotel. There are free public buses paid for by this tax and they were always well used while I was there.

Only applying it to paid accommodation would likely be the easiest to administer and therefore would not impact wild camping or campervan in a car park etc.

In reply to Tyler:

If Auntie Blodwyn has a spare room then she's better off than so many Welsh are portrayed.

What happens if Auntie Blodwyn runs a B&B - does the taxman accuse her of fiddling the Welsh government. The way things are done by Drakeford I'll guarantee this will be a dogs breakfast.

In reply to Ryan23:

To get free transport on buses that is worthwhile you first have to have buses in most of rural Wales, and you then have to have them running regularly and from early to late or they're of no use to tourists of any description - particularly if climbing/walking, which I imagine are 2 of the main interests for visitors that stop overnight in the North/mid Wales. Neither of these is ever likely to happen. Alright in Cardiff or Swansea, but not in North or mid Wales. Then if you really think that every Rugby fan will fit on the buses in Cardiff come 6 Nations time - ....... ?

In reply to fred99:

Auntie Blodwyn is your invention so I don’t know whether or not she has a spare room but I can confirm that some people in Wales have spare rooms and some don’t. I can also confirm that some people in Wales are better off than others. What this has to do with this thread I’ve no idea.

Well is she fiddling her tax? Has she charged her son/daughter for accommodation? Has she declared it? Has a nosy neighbour grassed her up or is she the subject of a random check? Is her accountant in on it or does she do her own books? I’m fascinated to know but, again, unsure of the relevance.

In reply to fred99:

Is there any particular reason why rugby fans would choose any different modes of transport compared with their current choices? As far as I can tell from what I've read, there are no plans to force rugby fans to use buses on internationals days. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

The widespread availability of the Daily Mail

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Not sure of the relevance of the 6Nations (I know it wasn't you that brought it up). If you're willing and able to pay for a Wales vs whoever ticket plus everything around it, even in the cheap seats, you're unlikely to give 2 sh*ts about a tourist tax. On the subject of public transport, Edinburgh manages it, anything other than public transport or walking on match day at Murrayfield is just bonkers.

As others have said, plenty of Euro countries sustain this without any obvious issues.

The way things seem to be going I don't think it will be a few quid on top of a hotel room that will stop people holidaying in Wales.

In reply to PaulW:

Great idea, if, as per most euro tourist destinations that do it is:

• Done as a percentage of the cost of a night's stay so it doesn't disproportionately affect cheap accommodation
• Is used to invest in and improve the local area, e.g. free shuttle buses etc.

Re wild camping/fly camping/campervans in laybys:

• Fly camping and layby van lifing banned and properly policed (because fly campers and van lifers are the worst humans on the planet....)
• Create some actually cheap and simple campsite/van spots - we don't all want gucci glamping. A field and basic toilet block is fine.
• Wild camping is increasing in popularity but no where near needing policing yet and would be kept in check by the new cheap and cheerful options - one to keep an eye on though.

In reply to peppermill:

My thoughts entirely. The walk from the West End to Murrayfield is an essential part of the matchday ritual. 

In reply to fred99:

No, unless she runs a B&B and is charging them, then yes, as it would be included in the cost.

No

I'm stopping there. Instead of knee jerking, how about reading what's proposed?

In reply to PaulW:

Basically the calls for tourist tax illustrate that the tax system is in the UK broken.  If it wasn’t why would we need to create another layer of tax legislation and cost.

it’s broken at different levels:

1) Local government starved of cash for political reasons from central government.

2) Local government scarred to put up council tax for political back lash.

3) Local government often giving 100% small business tax relief/rebates to encourage economy. Note these small business in rural areas with rebate often include the small B&Bs etc that are hosting the tourists.  It would be cheaper to adjust the business rates relief scheme than create a new system…..but there are no votes in this, and many small accom providers deliberately make little/no profit (investing back in the building ect) so have low rateable values.

So it’s easier, but more costly, and political convenient to go after Tourists rather than question why the current systems aren’t delivering what they were designed to do. 

 

In reply to PaulW:

Has anyone commenting on this theead actually considered the issue they are trying to address here? 

Many public facilities that tourists enjoy are paid for by local taxation. A small full time population can't and shouldn't be expected to pay for facilities at the scale required for those few weeks per year when half of the world is trying to holiday there. Not everyone benefits from tourism and some tourists contribute very little to the local economy. So somehow there needs to be a way of those who benefit from the facilities either directly (tourists) or indirectly (accommodation or tourist traps) paying. 

If it's anything like the dozens of other schemes already in place around the world it will only be a few ££ over a holiday.

If anything is going to kill the tourist industry in the honeypot locations it's going to be the cost of accommodation which has risen massively in the last few years. 

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

As a tourist tax is commonplace in Europe and has been for decades are we to assume that their tax system is also broken?

In reply to gethin_allen:

I think the second post in the thread mentioned it :p

In reply to Neil Williams:

£3, are you sure?

I don't think I have ever paid more than 0.5 euros per night.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Looking at some other articles articles it seems the main concern is that with a majority of tourists being from England, a tourist tax will be seen as "anti-English".

In reply to timjones:

In Switzerland it is normally about that, yes, though their model is a bit different in that it isn't solely a tax but also effectively includes the compulsory but heavily discounted purchase of a public transport ticket.  That this is "free" encourages its use.  I'd love to see that in the Lakes and Snowdonia, it could have a real impact on car use - even if you need to drive to the campsite or hotel, it means you might just consider leaving the car there and heading out by bus instead, particular to real problem locations like Pen y Pass.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Which is kind of stupid when Welsh people will also have to pay the same tourist tax

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I was simply pointing out that if the buses were free - due to them paying their "tourist tax" to stay in an hotel or B&B - then the buses just couldn't cope, and the bus companies would end up with a day that cost a packet and made nothing, and the supporters would have to pay for taxis etc..

In reply to fred99:

It is noted that you haven't replied to the question as to why the potential Welsh experience is at odds with most of Europe and many other parts of Europe, which seem to cope perfectly well with tourist taxes. Perhaps you might like to address that point? 

In reply to fred99:

Why would the bus company make nothing from any arrangement? the bus companies are private, they wouldn't just offer free travel to tourists for the fun of it, there would have to be an agreement between the local council and the bus companies.

Not everyone going to a game would be saying over night and therefore wouldn't be paying any tax.

The busiest times for public transport are usually the weekday commute, not the weekday evenings or weekends when games are usually plaid because obviously, people are working in the week days. So there would be the excess capacity to take the load for the match days, just like they do normally because nobody going near a stadium like the millennium stadium in the very centre of Cardiff would ever even consider trying to take a private vehicle into the city on a match day. It's bad enough normally but half the roads are closed on match days, and anyway, the stadium is right next to the train station.

In many cities there are special tourist cards available that include discounts on attractions and free bus/tram/metro, these are often very good value and don't seem to overwhelm the transport system.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Good point well made Gethin, but your answer doesn't involve any fictitious people with stereotyped names. Could you explain it all again but this time involving Auntie Blodwyn’s nephew, let's call him Rhodri Thomas and state he's a heating engineer living south in Cardiff, as that is as irrelevant as anything else. Thanks in advance 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Everyone here that has pointed to Europe has mentioned either urban locations or high volume tourist areas (i.e. Chamonix). In these locations public transport is available, and more to the point, actually useable.

The areas in Wales which are used to claim the need for this tax are not urban, but quite rural, without an effective public transport system - at least not one that people out on the hill all day can rely on - and in pure numbers staying overnight the revenue collected would almost certainly not cover the expense of collecting it.

In reply to fred99:

What is the relevance of the availability of public transport to the proposed tourist tax? 

Tourist taxes in France are levied everywhere in France, regardless of the numbers of tourists. Why does it work in France (and most of the rest of Europe) but could not work in Wales? How many accommodation providers have gone bust in France because of the tourist tax? 

In reply to Neil Williams:

I believe that the tax is usually levied at a local level and the travel discounts that you get are heavily dependent on the deals that the local authorities have done with with the travel operators.

I've just checked back through my records and it appears that I did pay more than 50 cebts when I sttayed in Switzerland last year.

Their £1.18 per night "city tax" is the highest rate that I have had to pay on any of my recent European trips but in this case it came with absolutely no travel perks

Overall it has never seemed like an issue to me, we all have to pay for the facilities we use by some means and that doesn't change just because it is flagged as as tourist tax.

In reply to fred99:

I've never  not paid 'taxe de séjour' in France when staying  in hotels or B&Bs even in non-touristy places when travelling for work. Most places don't give you access to public transport - Chamonix is an exception.

In reply to fred99:

You mentioned rugby, most large sports stadia are located in or near big cities.

Maybe if there was some cash from such a tourist tax system the bus companies in rural areas could afford to run better services.

I think the focus on a free public transport offer associated with a potential tourist tax is straying from the point really and nobody in power as far as I've seen has offered anything of the sort. If paying 50p a night extra would ensure that there are public toilets are clean and available and that the bins are emptied regularly I'd be happy enough paying.

Regarding getting carpark van-lifers (or hedge sh1tters as I've heard them called) to contribute. My suggestions would be a European style system of aires with limited spaces available when you get a ticket from a machine, restricted to single night stays and only fully self contained vans in locations without toilets and fines for anyone overstaying/not in marked bays.

In reply to timjones:

Barcelona is getting up towards that sort of figure.

In reply to The New NickB:

Wow their tax must be rocketing up

Barcelona was one of the stays that I checked to see what I had been charged recently and I was charged half a euro per night in July 2021.

In reply to timjones:

€3.50 a night in the posh places in Germany, I pay 0.50c for my dog at my  usual campsite for the fresh wholesome air!

In reply to PaulW:

We never used to pay at all.I remember camping next to river by the Grochan in the very early 80,s. In the morning some random Welshman came round asking for money. I said no and said gentleman replied “ you English you’re all the same, make me mad” to which Rab replied “I’m noo English Jimmy and you’re noo having any money” I think Rabs a little more flush these days

In reply to timjones:

Which suggest they think it is a good idea? Not sure I'm comfortable with the way they seem to be increasing it though. When you stopped it was over €3 in a posh hotel, but they seem to be increasing it so everyone pays this amount. Although Venice backtracked from their proposal to add €10 to the existing charge of €5 per night at least for this year. 

I think this is an ideal amount, one that tourist pay, but can't remember how much it was. 

In reply to timjones:

The minimum in July 2021 in Barcelona was €0.75, although it was higher on more expensive accommodation. It is currently €1.75-3.50 and will rise again in 2023.

In reply to gethin_allen:

So long as they actually run at a time that is of use to the tourists in that area - in locations where walking/climbing is a prime reason for visitors they need to be available both early and late, not starting at 9 and ended by 5, weekdays only.

I would hope that public toilets - in rural areas particularly - would be high on the list. I'm just a little cynical and believe that Drakeford will just push any profits into the main income account and it'll never be seen again, certainly not outside of Cardiff/Swansea.

Hear, Hear.

In reply to fred99:

If you spent even the shortest time finding out about the proposals, you would see that it is intended that it is up to the discretion of local councils as to whether to levy such a tax, and to decide how to spend it. Central government will have no say on how it is implemented at a local level. 

In reply to gethin_allen:Many countries especially out here in SE Asia operate a dual pricing system where by locals get in at one rate and foreigners pay  significantly more. We have to pay to climb at Famai Wall here in KL. 5rm for locals ( or foreigners with WP) and 10 for tourists. The hotels also administers a tourist tax with seemingly no problems. Just where the money goes and how it is accounted for is a different issue

In reply to apache:

I've seen similar in many different forms and places eg. Most locals or long termers in ski resorts don't pay the "standard" extortionate rates in bars/restaurants/amenities and in many places, local tax payers dont pay for parking in tourist spots.

In reply to fred99:

buses have to be useful to people who LIVE in the area.  We have one bus in and out a week.

Do you really want jam as well as butter?

The tourist/second home economy causes a lot of proplems and perhaps those social problems should be fixed by such a tax

No Natwest in Keswick any more as locals can't live there anymore so demand for the bank by locals falls as they are pushed out

In reply to wercat:

My opinion of second homes is the same as yours. In fact where I live the locals are being priced out by people moving out of Birmingham (and commuting back & forth to their B'ham jobs) and buying up the local housing for their first homes. All because their Birmingham wages mean they can outbid the locals. It buggers up the M5 and the A38 as well - the M5 used to be a quiet 2-lane motorway, now it's a jam-packed 4-laner. As for the A38 every time there's a crash (which is frequent) ....

As for the banks - even with a population of c.100,000 they're closing down here. Presumably these closures will produce a (short term) profit which will give some banker a nice bonus ! Truss would be very happy.

In reply to fred99:

I don't really think second home owners and migrating first time buyers are comparable.

You can't really fault people moving out of cities to be able to afford to buy their first homes. What would you expect them to do? keep renting at excessive costs and trying to save to give some other person that they have no link to the chance? Also, ask the people selling up if they are happy to be getting the extra money for their houses.

As for the commuting traffic, that surely is your moderating factor. If everyone could zip in and out of central Birmingham on clear roads then more people would be buying houses in your area.

In reply to gethin_allen:

These migrating buyers are not first time buyers, they are people moving on to a newer house. On top of that they, like the second-homers, don't become part of the community, they are a separate entity - that treats the locals as second class citizens, just as your second-homers probably do.

Again, I never said they were first time buyers. They are second, third or whatever time buyers. This means that they buy up larger 3/4 bedroom houses, leading to the builders building yet more of these - so virtually no 1/2 bedroom (and affordable) houses are actually being built for the locals. And how do they get planning permission - by stating the fact that locals are short of housing. Do they then build what the locals need and can afford - do they buggery.

What would you expect them to do? keep renting at excessive costs and trying to save to give some other person that they have no link to the chance? Also, ask the people selling up if they are happy to be getting the extra money for their houses.

These are not renters, mind you, a number of them are using their existing (Birmingham) house as collateral to get their new home, then when they've moved they rent out their house in Birmingham to cover the new mortgage. They are not buying old houses, they are buying the new builds - which the builders are quite happy to sell for as much as they can get.

They look at houses at the weekend when it's clear, then buy and move in. What they find first thing Monday morning is a trifle different.

In reply to fred99:

Do you have any evidence that people moving to the countryside treat locals as second class citizens? 

I personally don't believe it. I know it's anecdotal, but my parents live in Anglesey on a private rural lane, with a handful of houses down that lane. Recently it's probably more than 50% English due to recent movers and they all get on like a house on fire and has a strong community feel to it regardless of what language they are. Maybe it's unique but I doubt it. 

In reply to montyjohn:

I'm inclined to agree.  If I move somewhere it's because I want to live there and so I am invested in supporting that community.

The problem isn't people moving to Wales who want to basically become Welsh - objecting to these people is basically just racist, same as objecting to an Asian family moving into your English village.  The problem is holiday/weekend/other second homes.

In reply to montyjohn:

 

In the Meibion Glyndŵr sense?

In reply to mondite:

Touché, good catch. But no, not that kind of house on fire, but my god that sounds awful (had to do a little googling)

In reply to fred99:

To quote your post above

 "buying up the local housing for their first homes"

In reply to mondite:

Come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales...

In reply to PaulW:

(Actually in reply to the second homes/holiday lets part of this topic)

So ... in the village of Nant Peris in Snowdonia there are several houses which have been bought by climbing club as huts for visiting members. Are these denying locals the chance to live in their community? Are these contributing to a local housing shortage?

I think the answer to both questions is 'yes.'

Logically then, if second homes and holiday lets need abolishing to provide affordable housing for locals then so do climbing club huts like these.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Where do you draw the line with this argument though? You could make the same observation regarding hotels, hostels, pubs and shops etc. You need to also consider what they add to the local community. So yes, second homes add very little, I've friends in the Lakes who say the neighbouring property has been occupied less than 10 days in the last three years, so it's more of an investment property than a second home. Holiday Lets, I think is a bit more complicated, friends of mine are now on an extended holiday, post retirement,  renting their home while they are away is better for the village than leaving it empty. If a climbing hut is empty most of the time or the people using it don't spend any money locally, I can see it being problematic. 

Edit. Back to the OP, I see Edinburgh is also considering a tourist tax