UKC

The roadside spots outside the Fox house along with the ones at the top of Stanage are looking a lot worse for wear than they were last year. Are they maintained by anyone in particular / is there somewhere to report their degradation? I'd be happy to volunteer time towards fixing them as I'm sure many others would it just seems a shame the amount of damage there is currently! There verges are looking pretty run down up as well.

They are highways. Report either on council website or use the FixMyStreet app.

I’d also be very happy to lend time to help the verges but given the national park don’t want you parking there and are about to make all the Stanage car parks paid for I imagine they don’t want to put any time or money into the free spots. I reckon some guerrilla parking maintenance is in order.

Fines and parking charges seem to be their only ideas. They had two traffic wardens out at Mam Tor when I drove past yesterday, sticking tickets on every single car. A few of the cars were taking the piss but most of them were completely off the road and causing no obstruction at all. They'd even ticketed people who were in what clearly used to be a marked parking bay before double yellow lines were added recently. The drivers probably thought they were parked legitimately, being entirely behind the double yellows and in a tarmacced layby with the white outline still clearly visible. I know that's not the way it works but I doubt many people do.

Clearly, parking is a problem and the Peak is absurdly busy on a gorgeous bank holiday weekend. Clearly we all need to use public transport more. But the way to achieve that is improving public transport, not sticking double yellow lines on a perfectly reasonable place to park and then handing out fines.

It's absolutely the right thing to do to try and deter excessive car use and promote car sharing etc. The problem is that public transport is nearly all privatised and councils, NPAs and central government can do very little about improving it. Central government could, of course,  choose to re-nationalise public transport and then improve it, but this particular government isn't going to do that.

Is the whole area along Mam Tor Road double yellow now? 

Ah, I meant up the top, where the main road passes Old Mam Tor Road. I was just passing by rather than parking myself (fortunately!).

The other problem you have with the Western Peak (Derbyshire) is that many users are from Sheffield (South Yorkshire).

Heaven forbid that all day saver tickets, or for that matter regular services can operate seamlessly across county borders. Things might have changed, but it used to be cheaper to get from Ecclesall to Leeds than the few miles out to Hathersage.

Your 'excessive car use' is another person / family's day out actually enjoying the national park though. Preventing parking at reasonably safe spots on busy days without providing sufficient replacement parking doesn't just discourage 'excessive car use', it discourages people from enjoying the national park full stop. Also leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths if ex-laybys with still visible white paint markings aren't clearly signposted as no parking in addition to double yellows. Car sharing is a nice idea, but until there's some way of organising this at scale, same as telling people to just use public transport in absence of any decent p&r schemes or actually good bus services etc, what it boils down to is making life more difficult for people trying to enjoy the outdoors.

Edit: will also point out that nationalising public transport isn't necessary for improvements to be made. The government is entirely capable of requiring / causing improvements within the current frameworks, it's just decided not to.

Few months ago it was £2.00 a journey in Sheffield even out into the Peak, not sure if this is still continuing?

pleasantly surprised to pay £2.00 all the way to Bradwell, certainly cheaper than using the car.

If we're talking about western Sheffield / Eastern Peak, we should be publicising places like Eccy Woods and the Porter Valley more for days out that are closer to where people live. A lot of people who just want a stroll, a nice selfie and an ice cream would go to these places instead of the national park more often if they knew they were there and are easily accessible.

I didn't know that. My main point that it's not fair to blame local councils and NPAs for not doing more to improve public transport still stands though.

Expect them both to get hammered even more when the parking charges are implemented at Stanage Popular and Burbage North and people seek alternatives.

Most people going to the Western Peak from the south do not go as far as Sheffield - they turn off (the M1) for Chesterfield. If any bus services for the Western Peak are going to be of any use for them then any park-and-ride system needs to be based there.

Brain fog moment - sorry I meant Eastern, as in the bit closest to Sheffield.

I may be wrong but I suspect many day trippers to stanage and live less than 30 minutes drive away in the western suburbs.

I'm not sure about that.  When I go, I come from Leeds and often end up climbing with people from all over the place.  It's only when I go to the more obscure venues that the ratio of locals is notably higher.

Do you know when that is due to happen?

Also, will the Peak District parking permit be useable at these locations?  I know the price for these is going up but I'll probably still get one given how much I use it.

I had the same brain fog with regard to east and west. 

With regard to day trippers, I'm sure that during the week most are relatively local, but at weekends many people do travel from further away. They don't all go for the weekend, probably for three reasons - 1) Other things to do so can't afford the time for the entire weekend, 2) Picking the day with the best weather, 3) Grit is a bit physical and two days running can be a bit tough for limestone climbers.

Either way, even if everyone who travels from a distance were to camp/B&B/etc they would still need to get to the crags each day, and reducing parking in the manner being done is just silly. Any National Park isn't just for those who live there - they're for all of us to enjoy (responsibly of course).

I think there needs to be a bit of both; the road up from Bamford (village) to Bamford (edge) was a solid line of cars parked up it a few weeks ago, which makes it impossible for cars to pass each other and caused absolute chaos. Clearly public transport needs improving - but clearly people who park like idiots also need curbing somehow otherwise random third parties like me end up having their tyres shredded or wing mirrors pinged off in the carnage that these idiots create.

Absolutely. I've got no objection at all to parking tickets in cases where the parking is against the rules and also causing a problem. But on the bit of road I was referring to, nobody was significantly obstructing the road and most were entirely off it. By the letter of the law they were in the wrong, and the ones on verges behind double yellows probably knew they were risking it. But the ones in what still looked like a marked (albeit faded) parking bay seemed particularly unfairly treated.

Though your example strikes me as a tricky one for enforcement as well. If I'm remembering the road correctly, it's a fine place to park (both legally and in terms of impact) as long as there are only a small number of cars already there so other traffic still has visibility and regular passing places. As the problem is specifically with people stupidly continuing to pile in once that's no longer the case, where would you draw the line and how could a traffic warden even tell who'd parked while it was still a reasonable decision and who'd piled in later? It would probably need markings added to the road to designate non-parking spots. Guess the question would be whether it's busy enough often enough for that to be worth doing.

You also need a bit of both because realistically no amount of improvement to public transport is going to make it preferable (for most journeys) to getting in a car outside your house, driving directly to your destination without stopping and then parking for free. You can argue that buses need to be improved _first_, but at some point driving has to be made significantly more expensive or less convenient if you actually want to get people out of their cars.

I may be weird (unique, I prefer), but while it is handy being able to travel on-demand for a fixed price to your exact destination, there's also something really fun about taking a train somewhere. It feels a lot more like a proper adventure regardless of where you're going. My favourite experience of last year was stepping off the sleeper train and walking into the 'wilderness'. It wouldn't have been the same if I'd arrived in Dalwhinnie by car. Not even close.

No judgement being made because I do exactly the same thing, but it feels like a lot of people pick a specific thing to do, and then they drive to that specific thing, do that specific thing, and drive home again with maximal convenience. If the specific thing is walking...why not take the train somewhere new or less familiar, and invent a walk around the public transport and have a novel adventure instead of bemoaning that public transport doesn't take you anywhere near to the start of one's walk?

I enjoy that sort of thing too, but for getting out on a random Saturday in our local-ish area there's always going to be a temptation to take the option that lets us spend more time walking in the hills and less time walking across town to bus stops and waiting for buses.

I'm interested by the dislikes here. Is it people who think you _can_ get significant modal shift towards public transport without making driving less convenient or more expensive for the relevant trips? I should probably have included some qualifications there: it maybe applies to shortish trips that aren't easy to do by train or light rail, but that's probably what we'd be talking about for a lot of people visiting the Peak. Or is it people who don't think that that's an important enough goal (in this case) to be worth penalizing car-use for? I tried to hedge that a bit with the qualification at the end because to be honest I'm not massively committed to it myself...

I would have thought that short - local - trips would be easier by public transport. Mainly because people are close to the suppliers of such transport, and trips would be repeated.

People from a distance would have many more problems, due to both the infrequency of journeys - which means suppliers could change their timetables - the number of different transports necessarily involved - train, bus, etc - and the likelihood that very few of these match up, let alone the time such would take which could well make public transport an impossibility for anything less than a long weekend trip. Add in the lack of bicycle accommodation on public transport and well .....

The point about long journeys was that the effort of getting to and from the public transport stop at each end is balanced by the fact that on a lot of long journeys you can use high-speed rail and also most people are fairly averse to driving for hours at a time. So getting between two cities at opposite ends of the country by public transport can be quicker and more pleasant than doing it by driving door-to-door.

In contrast, a local bus is generally going to be slower than driving and possibly less direct (and gets stuck in all the same traffic), and you'll have to add time for getting to a bus stop and waiting for the bus, and most people don't find a 30 minute drive too taxing. So unless you're a bus enthusiast, driving is generally going to be a more inherently attractive option for shorter journeys. Hence I think a lot of people will tend to drive even if there's a cheap, frequent, reliable bus service unless driving is a particular pain in the arse for some reason - which typically means scarce or expensive parking or congestion charging or limited access or something similarly unpopular.

This is terrible!!  People will have to start walking up hills soon.

You really ought to pick a random town/city in the Midlands (for example), and then work out the following;

Timings of local bus services to the nearest train station

The train timings to then get to near Peak grit

The bus/train timings to get near a crag

The time to walk to said crag

Then look at what time you would need to leave said crag to do the reverse

I think you'd probably find that the time you'd need to leave would be some considerable period before you actually arrived - so much for public transport !

I just did this out of boredom from the South East of Kent

Taxi to nearest train station 30mins and £50 

Bus for same journey 75mins and £2

Train to Hathersage 4 to 5.5 hours and £38 to £82

Hathersage to Stannage walk 45 mins?

the above involves dragging gear between on public transport and being on a fairly fixed itinerary and the cost is for only one person travelling

Drive the same journey 4.5 hours and £48ish in fuel

Flexible itinerary and up to five people for the same cost 

I did look at flying but it involved an overnight stay on the way to the airport, but the flight was in between the two train prices at £66

Did you actually bother to check the departure/arrival times of each of these journeys to start with. It's no good ending one journey if you can't connect to another.

By the way - the south east of Kent is not in the Midlands (and I wouldn't dignify the south east by putting it in capitals !) That part of the world is much better served by train/bus transport than those of us who don't live in the overly pampered area around that god-forsaken cesspit called London that thinks it's the centre of the Universe.

Wont this need transpennine in which case will be best case scenario whereas in reality it will be a lucky dip whether the train you are hoping for is actually running.

That is hilariously badly informed. Whilst admittedly Transpennine do seem to be currently winning in incompetence stakes Southern rail arent far behind. Many parts of that pampered area would love to have the motorway and a road system Manchester has. Try the A12 or even better the A21.

There is a certain accuracy in your claim about London being the centre of the universe since if you are using trains in the south it almost certainly is even if the place you want to go is roughly in line with you.

Oh dear, please point out where I said the midlands are in the South East.

Where you live is your own choice

For the record, I looked at the travel times on the various booking sites using the same approximate departure time for a reasonable comparison. 

While I currently live in Kent it's at least 1.5 hours to get to  cesspit London (agree BTW)

London to Sheffield (another cesspit) only takes 20 minutes longer 

Unfortunately this area is very poorly served by public transport, which makes my job considerably more challenging. My colleagues in the North / Midlands can  usually access airports etc far quicker than I can. Not that I'm complaining as I'm a 3minute walk to the beach, definitely my choice. 

Used to do this from Wolverhampton.  I remember a trip to Birchens, and 9 England wickets fell during the final walk in from the bus stop. (commentary on the radio).

Quick trip then 😂

1990s.  Don't know why they bothered padding up.

I live in Northampton, which I realise is about as far as you can get from the Peak while still being classified as the Midlands.

There is no public transport option that would get me to Stanage before lunch on a Sunday. In order to get to Stanage shortly after midday via coach and train, I would have to leave the house at 05:19, walk 20 minutes, catch 2 coaches and 2 trains to Hathersage, then walk 45 minutes to Stanage, arriving around 12:15, assuming I made all of the connections.

If I went by train only, the earliest option is leaving at 08:00 for the 08:24 train which would get me to Hathersage at 12:44 and Stanage around 13:30.

The return journey would take 3:10 on 3 trains, plus 1:10 of walking. 

So to get a short 6 hour day at Stanage, would take me over 11 hours of journey time, including 2 hours of walking with any gear, would cost £105 per person for the privilege and would leave me knackered for work the next day.

Or I can drive in 1:50 each way for £30 of fuel split between everyone in the car (plus wear and tear costs). I can have brunch at home, and still make it home for a normal dinner time (or I could have a much longer day at Stanage).

Public transport just isn't an option for a lot of journeys. It is equally useless for my 15 mile commute to the next town. To get to the office by 8am, the last departure time is 1am!!! And it would cost £7.20 each way, instead of £2 and 25-35 minutes by car.

I've actually done this in practice for walking when I was living in Nottingham and yes, it did involve early starts at best, and that was without the faff of getting from a station to a crag. You can also check it with Google Maps. And even from the wrong bit of Sheffield getting out to the Peak by public transport can be surprisingly painful.

I'm not sure what your point is though? We were talking about the idea that we should improve public transport to get lots of people to take the bus to the Peak (and I was arguing that that won't, in itself, be enough to get lots of people out of cars). The fact that it's a pain with unimproved public transport at the moment isn't the relevant.

Having said that, having tried to park in the Snake Pass yesterday afternoon I'm now feeling more like the faff of coaxing a toddler to the bus stop might be the lesser of two evils.

Good on you for lift sharing to reduce the impacts of driving. I'd agree public transport is impractical for a day visit. I'm seriously impressed with Northampton to Stanage and back with what must be a full car for £30 of fuel... you need to offer tips on how that's done.

More people need to try to lift share and we should always try to park sensibly (if the normal parking is full, drop most stuff off with your passengers and park sensibly further away and walk back). The BMC have a lift share system and of course we have UKC/H lifts and partners.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcs-launches-lift-share-site

I always scratch my head with anybody who climbs and lives in the south east. It’s crazy’s and just inefficient   to have a weekly pastime that involves regular travelling more than 1 or 2 hours at the most. 

You must be mad!

I will never understand it .

mind you climbers in Wisconsin often drive every weekend 10/12 hours to red rocks in Kentucky  

Back in the reall world many people have constraints like a job, family and other factors that they simply can't do living in a climbing area.

I can never understand it either, an hour is too far for me these days, my climbing is very sporadic, and mostly limited to holidays back home in Cornwall with the odd foray into a local wall with my son. I used to visit the Peak occasionally (never really liked it though) as the in-laws were up that way, but both are now gone. Beach activities are more of a focus to me these days Kite/paddle boarding swimming etc. 

Also work has me travelling around a lot, so I get to do the most appropriate activities for the area I'm in, add in MTB and skateboards to the mix and I can usually find something to do.

I am well aware of that. I just never understand it. I would pack it in and take up sailing or something like that. Climbing is great but travelling in the U.K. theses distances every weekend…crazy.

I say it tongue in cheek.

Thanks for that!

That's based on 50mpg at £1.60/l.

200 miles at 50mpg = 4 gallons = 18.2l

18.2l x 1.60£/l = £29.12.

In reality, my mileage on a long motorway journey is quite a bit better than 50mpg, and current prices are less than £1.60/l.

I live in Worcester, which is most definitely in the Midlands. As for an early start to make it possible to climb at Stanage on a Sunday - I'd probably have to make my early start on Saturday, and then take Monday off to finish returning home - Lord knows where I'd have to doss the night in each case. For people who live south of Birmingham - and not including those for whom the London trains are available - public transport is just not possible at present. That doesn't mean that a decent bus service from Chesterfield wouldn't make things a lot better in the Eastern Peak, as people could then drive to Chesterfield and park at the bus station rather than various other locations.

(This might however lead to many pubs and outdoor shops having to close down or downsize, as people would be busy getting back to the bus to return home, so no stopping at Outside in Hathersage for breakfast and some gear, and no having a pint in any of the pubs afterwards).

The verges being in a poor state won't stop those who are going to park there already from just pulling over and making the holes bigger. It makes it unsightly for everyone else and causes even more damage to areas already set aside for parking. It's not an issue if convenience or laziness.

Fair enough. My refill costs (Focus eco estate) after a Nottingham-Stanage roundtrip journey, starting with a full tank, are typically around £30 with just two of us plus gear  (I've never checked with a full car). About half the (roughly an hour) drive time is spent on good roads from Jnc26 to the edge of Sheffield....I rarely do that drive at busiest times when it would use more fuel. My car's consumption is very good on motorways with steady flow but much poorer in stop start conditions. You're probably driving a better car better

I do tend to drive to try and optimise fuel economy rather than to minimise journey times when not in a hurry.