UKC

Weirdly specific planning regs question but this place is always good for odd questions...

I have an old lean-to garage on the side of the house which I plan to rebuild (insulated and not sinking haphazardly) and extend back from, this is permitted development so far as I can tell if the garage is not part of the original house but instead an extension I'd be replacing and enlarging, the total still being within permitted development rights. However if it is considered 'original' then the back wall of the garage forms the back wall of the 'original house'. I need more than 3m and I'm allowed up to 6m back from there which is enough but I'd need to go through a formal Neighbor Consultation (as opposed to just having a chat and doing the party wall stuff) so it matters whether the garage is original.

Anyway, the issue, the garage clearly wasn't built with the house but if I've understood correctly for the purposes of the legislation 'original' is how the house actually was as of July 1st 1948. Having been through all the old conveyancing/mortgage documents from the 30s and the 80s there's no description of the house, only a number and plot size, I still I have no way to prove when the garage was built. My guess is it was thrown up around the 60s from the fittings and condition of the surviving woodwork but a guess is no good.

Where it can't reasonably be determined either way how the house looked in '48 what happens, would the 1929 site outline plan showing no garage suffice?

jk

Google Earth from 1930 and see if it's there, take a screen shot for evidence.

Large-scale old maps (try the National Library of Scotland) may help.  If it appears on a map you know it was there prior to the date of publication, and if you can find the survey date (which may be substantially earlier), prior to that.

Also, what type of roof?  A trussed rafter won't be prior to 1950s, so you probably don't want it to be that!

Old OS maps?

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=8&lat=54.28092&lon=-2.66154&...

The OS produce 1/1250 scale maps of most built up areas of the UK.

Local authorities usually issue a small section as a location or block plan for a fee.

This will be presumably off the latest OS issue , hopefully they will keep as a record all the out dated ones. 

If you could look back  somehow at previous versions you would see when the garage appeared.

Edit, see replies above.

Another thought is whether you intend to sell the house in the next 4 years? (the limit on which enforcement action can be taken on un-authorised development, for a single dwelling house) If you do, then you may be asked to evidence how it was determined that it was permitted development and it would be worth putting together your findings and asking the local planning authority if they agree that this is permitted development and then keeping their formal correspondence for your records.

Of course, there is the concern that they might disagree and ask you to submit a planning application, but this would be a concern anyway if you were planning to sell it within 4 years of completing the work.

Once you've removed the old one, it'd be hard to show it was pre-1948

Lol, I looked, there's actually quite a bit of high quality wartime imagery on there but not for York.

jk

I'd wondered about mapping if it turns out to be a problem that needs a solution (as opposed to the 1929 plan being ok), one of my mates works locally in archeology/mapping using aerial imagery, I'll see what he can point me to.

The roof was very simple, just rafters spanning the gap, tiles on top, spider webs holding it all together.

jk

Thanks. Brilliant resource but most of the maps of interest are either still in copyright or too small a scale. Local library will have them though I'd have thought.

Ah ha! Just remembered I have a friend who has every OS map ever made of York in a lovely book.

JK

Instead of worrying about all these details, why not just join the Tory party or preferably become a Tory party donor? Then you may find (like Cummings did at one point) that permission isn't needed at all.

National library of Scotland; use it all the time to identify possible external unauthorised works to listed buildings. 

Edit: on the odd occasion I do find the scale to be just about useable - have you looked?

Thanks, the NM Scotland is a great resource (and a cracking day out).

I have and unfortunately they're not much help.

jk

Some thoughts...

1) "a guess is no good" - you could ask the council if they'd take an informed estimate from a local buildings surveyors - amazing what such people know.   

2) If you ask the council planning department for a definitive reference and, like you, they are unable to find one, what - hypothetically speaking - would they use as evidence for an enforcement action....?

3) Someone somewhere has a photo that will evidence what was there in the 1940s, you might try asking around a local history society.  

All the interesting bits are long gone, I re-roofed it, cut the seized hinges out and replaced the doors years ago. The bricks might give a minimum age since they're probably locally made and most local brickworks are now defunct.

That I need to ask. Mostly I just don't want hassle, it'd get planning permission no problem, I'm about the only one on the street who hasn't done it.

True but it'd be more work than just assuming the worse case.

jk