UKC

why are otherwise smart people still choosing between petrol and diesel cars? the CO2 they emit now will still be in the atmosphere in 50 years reaping their price on present and future generations, the price of rising sea levels, violent storms, droughts, heat death. 

I get it that electric isn't perfect and there aren't many cheap electric vehicles around, but surely the choice then is between electric car and public transport/cycling. Who would choose ICE and make future generations pay for that choice?

In reply to mutt:

Have you seen the cost of insurance for land yachts?

In reply to mutt:

I'm not sure it's productive framing it as a stupid decision to choose a petrol or diesel car, different people are in different situations and implying they are not smart is, no offence intended, a pretty stupid thing to do if you really want to influence them.

Many people either cannot for financial or practical reasons choose an electric car, nor is public transport practical for all.

I've got an old diesel car that I'll keep until it's uneconomical to maintain then have to make a decision on an electric car, I'd like to choose one but it'll depend on my circumstances at the time.

In the meantime I'll continue to use public transport, cycle, walk and where necessary drive my diesel car (car sharing where possible).

In reply to mutt:

I live about 55 miles from Edinburgh. If I want to go there to visit friends, go to the theatre or galleries, I can drive and be there in a little over an hour.

If I try to use public transport, I have to take a bus to Perth (one per hour), and then take a bus or train from Perth, with similarly poor frequencies, not integrated with the first bus I take. It takes about 2.5 hours. The times I can return are strictly limited by the last trains and buses, which tends to make theatre visits impossible without an overnight stay. 

Sadly, we do not have the public transport infrastructure which delivers adequate solutions. Believe me, I have tried. 

(And before anyone queries my choice of routes, I am aware it is also possible to get the train from Dunblane. In terms of overall journey time and convenience, it's no better.)

In reply to mutt:

People whose messy real lives don't always fit on public transport and whose means don't extend to a practical EV.

jk

In reply to mutt:

My means don't extend to an EV with the required range, yet. Given falling costs of EV tech it will be accessible to me and many others soon. I look forward to that day a lot.

Until then, don't criticize the individual but criticize the system in which we all play.

And just be glad EVs have been pushed as aggressively as they have. For all the stick he gets, they will change the world. We're not quite there yet. Will be soon.

In reply to MeMeMe:

Absolutely, its the best decision you could make in the circumstances and exactly what I did until my deisel became too costly to maintain. There is no way in the world that I would have bought an ICE. 

In reply to mutt:

Really disagree with this. Electric cars are in there with ICE vehicles, not in the same league as choosing public transport.

Electric vehicles have a higher carbon footprint in production... so for lower mileage drivers ICE can still be the better choice. And that does not consider the damage done by lithium mining. Yes EVs are an environmental better choice for many but it's not black and white, and I will reiterate, it's not in the same league as choosing public transport, cycling and walking.

In reply to mutt:

Why are people still choosing to have children, keep pet dogs, fly on holiday (pandemic allowing) or consume foods grown and products manufactured at the other side of the world?

We all make choices that put our desires and comforts above the future of the planet all the time.

The goal should be to start making better choices (both on a personal level, and by introducing legislative measures that make better choices more attractive), and thus to normalise those behaviours IMO... ranting about other people's choices not matching yours isn't going to help.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Mmm.  If we are just counting tailpipe CO2, then a Euro VI bus with 84 seats produces 1300g CO2/km, and if it's 2/3 full then that's 23g/passenger-km.

If an EV does 4km/kWh and is charged overnight at around 160g/kWh then it's around 40g/kWh.  If there are two people in it then that's less than the bus per passenger km..

Yes, we need to consider embedded CO2 from manufacture, but the idea that this is enormous for an EV is myth propagated by the ICE manufacturers.

I am in no way saying that public transport is not much better than driving - but purely in terms of CO2 then no, it's not a different league.  And of course we are slowly getting hybrid buses which emit less CO2/km.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Seconded, with an unhinged rant:

Basses suck for emissions unless they’re mostly full.  Around here, they’re full in rush hours and then running circuits mostly empty for the rest of the day, wasting CO2 directly in hauling empty seats around, and slightly less visibly in wearing out the bus to haul empty seats around, wasting the CO2 embodied in its manufacture.

Lithium mining isn’t nice, but not is oil mining, and unlike oil, the lithium will be reused and then recycled at the end of the vehicles life.

Busses suck even more when you look at the disruptions they cause to the flow of traffic and so the impact on the fuel economy of the ICE fleet sharing a road with them.

The sooner autonomous on-demand EVs displace the bus industry the better.  Something to look forwards to if you’re an environmentalist, a bus user/sufferer, a motorist or a cyclist.  

Except in dense city areas, a fixed route, peak-demand-sized giant vehicle is low hanging fruit for technological replacement.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Using public transport is all very well - if there actually is any.

I start work at 8.30 a.m., and finish at 5.00 p.m. - I live 8.5 miles from work.

I have tried riding a bicycle there and back, but at 65 I am not physically capable of commuting said distance any more, as it's not exactly flat. Plus the bypass is plain dangerous for cyclists and I want to live to collect my pension.

If I took the bus then I would have to walk for a mile and a half to get the only bus that does the job, and then walk a further mile and a half at the other end. So walking 3 out of the 8.5 miles. Plus I would need to leave home at around 7.00 a.m. to get to work on time, and not return home until about 7.00 p.m. - commuting time of 3.5 hours for a round trip of 17 miles. Strangely I want a life so this is NOT an option. I could use the train, but this would involve the same walking, and both an even earlier start and later return - possibly an hour more at each end, but I haven't confirmed it as the timetable I last saw was just plain stupid.

Instead I ride a (small) motorcycle, and take between 20 and 25 minutes each way. I keep my second hand diesel car for long trips, or where a load is to be carried; it does less than 4,000 miles a year, mostly in trips of at least 30 miles each way, usually a lot more.

This is the way of the world for a very large number of people, who don't have a driveway on which to charge an EV, and don't have the money to fund a new (or nearly new) car anyway. But they do have to have their own transport as public transport in this country is certainly not designed for the benefit of (possible) customers, whether that is with regard to routes or times.

In reply to mutt:

electric vehicles have come 30 years too late for me.  I was really taken by the technology in the early 70s at school and bored my teachers with ideas for hybrid/electric and electric cars. 

sadly I'm too old to afford anything but second hand and petrol is therefore a better choice but at least it will be prolonging the use of an already manufactured vehicle.  We will be replacing our 14.5 year old Zafira in the spring with whatever we can afford that is suitable.  Keeping it going is not affordable either as it is a money pit.

I think scrappage for petrol/diesel cars should be availably whether you want an electric car or an electric bike as either represents a change in transport from car and many could afford an electric bike who can't afford a new car.

This would be more egalitarian than insisting that only the lucky ones who can buy new cars qualify for scrappage schemes

btw public transport round here is fantasy fiction, for other more developed parts of England.  One bus in and out per week and rather expensive.

In reply to wintertree:

Didn’t know that. Certainly puts Sting in a different light, the hypocritical bastard…

In reply to mutt:

by the way, i used to be smart at work but my clothes are very tatty now - but who cares?

In reply to Jamie Wakeham: You aren't comparing like with like and your assumptions and thinking are heavily skewed for your argument. Where I live buses (which do clock up the miles) are going electric not just hybrid, and at a faster rate than private car owners, and the trams I would use have always been electric.

I'm not saying EV CO2 at manufacture is enormous, but it is significant to the point where if you do low mileage a 2nd hand ICE may still be the better option.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/electric-cars/how-clean-are...

The biggest flaw is you haven't considered that the E bus or tram will still be running whether or not you are on it, and that a public transport lifestyle will also involve lots of walk and cycle miles compared to a car user.

I say this as someone who does fully intend to buy an electric car next time round, but due to my mileage this is not the best option yet.

In reply to mutt:

Yes please, find me an electric car that will:

Have 4wd as my commute is over untreated roads above 1000ft in winter. 
Be able to be fixed by My local cheap and non-specialist mechanic.  
Not need charging for long periods when working and playing in remote and isolated mountainous areas. 
Not depreciate by 30% or require a 4 figure repair if I hit a big pothole or a fallen tree branch or run through a ditch to let a tractor pass. 
Cost me less than a grand. 
 

In reply to mutt:

People (in general) will continue to tinker around the fringes of their real environmental impact in such a way that it doesn't inconvenience their life choices until such a time that innovation, legislation and then infrastructure is put in place to support a meaningful reduction in environmental impact.

Or/And the world kills us all in some way and just gets on without us.

In reply to static266:

 Ah! Someone who shares my son's basic car purchase philosophy...........