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Professional Parliamentarians

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 tehmarks 13 Oct 2018

I had the dubious pleasure this evening of listening to a prominent Labour MP give a closing speech at a conference. I wasn't really paying attention, but my ears perked up when she said:

You know, in my industry it's incredible tough...

Industry? What industry? The industry of...representation? Democracy? Heckling in a rowdy manner? Why on Earth do some (and I suspect a majority) of our politicians see what they do as a career choice rather than a service, a duty even, about which they're deeply passionate?

Perhaps it was just clumsy phrasing, but it got me thinking. What are evetyone else's thoughts and opinions? And at what point did it really start to go downhill? Was it ever up the hill to begin with, or has it always been thus?

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Removed User 13 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

What did you expect him to say?

I am baffled as to why you are so outraged. You can choose to go into a job because you see it as a calling, a service to others. In fact I've never met a politician in this country who didn't see politics as a public service to some extent at least.

Why do you have such a low opinion of them?

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 Ridge 13 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

Been drinking from noon and now onto shorts, so apologies for being incoherent.

Politics is an industry. You do PPE at Oxbridge, become some party advisor/researcher and await your chance to climb the greasy pole. If you get employed by the red firm or the blue firm is pretty much irrelevant.

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OP tehmarks 13 Oct 2018
In reply to Removed User:

I'll come back to the rest of your post in a while as I'm struggling to express exactly why the phrasing frustrated me (outrage is a bit strong), but:

> Why do you have such a low opinion of them?

You don't have to look any further than the joke that is Brexit to find one solid reason to have a low opinion of politicians currently. On both sides; we have a totally inept government and an equally inept opposition. No one is painting themselves in a good light.

But if that's not enough, how about recent expense abuses, how about failing to act for the good of the country in preference to party-political point-scoring, or how about an unwaveringly low public trust in politicians over the past thirty years?

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 Ridge 14 Oct 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> What did you expect him to say?

I think the issue is the speaker implies politics is a job and nothing more. No problem with that, I've spent the last 35 years of my life doing jobs I don't care about, but I'm not asking  the country to vote for me or claiming I'm fit to lead a council or the nation 

> I am baffled as to why you are so outraged. You can choose to go into a job because you see it as a calling, a service to others. In fact I've never met a politician in this country who didn't see politics as a public service to some extent at least.

> Why do you have such a low opinion of them?

The mess of brexit seems to show that our politicians are for more concerned with career advancement and positioning themselves and their respective parties for 'leadership'. The fate of the nation is of secondary importance.

Post edited at 00:08
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 Jim Fraser 14 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

There is really nothing wrong with being a professional politician. It may get a bad press but that's more to do with having ... well, a bad press. 

The situation is no different from other nearby countries that do a lot better than the UK. Many neighbour or near neighbour countries have more real influence on politics, better income, and lower housing costs. The big differences in the UK are the ludicrously tribal voting habits, the aforementioned bad press, and the lack of a written constitution. 

If nobody has ever recorded who this country is for then it becomes for those that grasp the most. 

If you want change, the last thing you need is a British Trump. What you need is to join an organisation that wants constitutional reform and start campaigning for a better future. 

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 fred99 15 Oct 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> What did you expect him to say?

You need to read more carefully, the Poster wrote;

"... when SHE said" - my capitals.

 

 Rob Parsons 15 Oct 2018
In reply to Ridge:

> Politics is an industry.

Well, no: for any historically-accepted definition of the word 'industry', it isn't. 'Profession', perhaps.

All rather reminds me of Alexei Sayle's comment on a similar abuse of the language, namely that 'anyone who uses the word workshop outside the context of light engineering is a tw*t.'

 

 

Removed User 15 Oct 2018
In reply to fred99:

> You need to read more carefully, the Poster wrote;

> "... when SHE said" - my capitals.


Well thanks very much for pointing out my mistake which of course completely changes the points both you and I made in our original posts.

 Martin W 15 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

> You don't have to look any further than the joke that is Brexit to find one solid reason to have a low opinion of politicians currently. On both sides; we have a totally inept government and an equally inept opposition. No one is painting themselves in a good light.

One of the issues with the Brexit situation is that, although many MPs think it's a thoroughly bad idea, they can't come out and say: "This just goes to show that we should never trust the public with voting on important issues that they don't really understand," without fundamentally weakening the legitimacy of their own role in the legislature (at least amongst people who don't understand the principle of representative democracy).

One could even see Cameron's rapid departure in to well-deserved obscurity as at least a tacit admission that the 'mandate' his party had achieved in the 2015 election had been torpedoed below the waterline when his government's clearly stated preference for remain had been defeated.  May doesn't even seem to be capable of admitting that she didn't win the 2017 election (though it's looking increasingly likely that the DUP will soon have a chance to remind her of that fact).

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 Binigo 15 Oct 2018
In reply to Martin W:

> they can't come out and say: "This just goes to show that we should never trust the public with voting on important issues that they don't really understand," without fundamentally weakening the legitimacy of their own role in the legislature (at least amongst people who don't understand the principle of representative democracy).

 

True that they can't say that, although not sure it would weaken their position (if you assume they're right) - it would just make it harder for them to get elected again!

 

 And although the OP may complain, actually you NEED professional politicians if you want decisions made that balance the 'will of the people' with expert advice, technical knowledge, financial implications, and the whole host of other things that (should) go through the minds of every serious politician every time they vote. Someone said above that they're not an 'industry'. Well that's true, but their business/job/calling/whatever you want to term it, is decision-making. Want good decisions made? Employ people who do nothing else. 

 

I'm biased as have worked in Parliament, but the problem most definitely is NOT professional politicians (most of whom actually have significant experience across a variety of fields, rather than no experience -which obviously people prefer to believe). The problem is bipartisanism (eg Cons cutting 'Short' money so that opposition parties get fewer resources and less cash); vicious party discipline and whipping (see recent reports on threats made to Con Remainers); dodgy media which is never held to account (IPSO totally toothless as reg body); dogmatic interest groups (Momentum agitating for weird Militant rules from the 70s devouring Labour's attempts at Opposition); and the (resultant) dearth of issue-based politics. 

 

 

 

But sure, it's all because none of them ever worked in a Greggs or picked up a hammer before going to uni. 

 

 Rob Parsons 16 Oct 2018
In reply to Binigo:

>  And although the OP may complain, actually you NEED professional politicians if you want decisions made that balance the 'will of the people' with expert advice, technical knowledge, financial implications, and the whole host of other things that (should) go through the minds of every serious politician every time they vote. Someone said above that they're not an 'industry'. Well that's true, but their business/job/calling/whatever you want to term it, is decision-making. Want good decisions made? Employ people who do nothing else. 

Don't confuse 'making decisions' with 'making good decisions.'

Do you remember when David Cameron, as PM, took issue with Oxfordshire County Council for making cuts forced on them by the policies of his own Government? He really hadn't thought the implications of those decisions through, had he? (Or, perhaps, he'd only noticed problems when they finally started to affect him personally.) Yet after his his Oxford PPE, he'd served with the Conservative Party Research Department, and been a Special Advisor to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, no less - very much the modern 'professional politician.'

So yeah, I think in cases like his I would very much prefer somebody who'd 'worked in a Greggs or picked up a hammer.'

 

Removed User 16 Oct 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Don't confuse 'making decisions' with 'making good decisions.'

> So yeah, I think in cases like his I would very much prefer somebody who'd 'worked in a Greggs or picked up a hammer.'

 

While I might wonder whether someone who had no work experience outside politics may lack what it takes to run the country neither would I want someone with 4 GCSEs and a hygiene certificate making decisions on the reform of banking legislation or energy policy.

Of course most politicians aren't like the ones parodied on this thread and do possess a lot of real life experience of something or other. It's rather strange that people criticise politicians for being incompetent in some way but then suggest that their jobs would be better done by those of below average intelligence and low educational achievement.

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 Rob Parsons 16 Oct 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> ... neither would I want someone with 4 GCSEs and a hygiene certificate making decisions on the reform of banking legislation or energy policy.

Neither would I.

> Of course most politicians aren't like the ones parodied on this thread ...

The incompetent and out-of-touch example I mentioned was Prime Minister for six years!

 

 

Post edited at 16:05
Removed User 16 Oct 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Neither would I.

Didn't you mention your preference for a Greggs employee?

 

> The incompetent and out-of-touch example I mentioned was Prime Minister for six years!

 

Yes I know. It doesn't negate my point that most politicians do have experience outside politics.

Removed User 16 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

 

> You know, in my industry it's incredible tough...

> Industry? What industry? The industry of...representation? Democracy? Heckling in a rowdy manner?

 

The legislation industry.

 toad 16 Oct 2018
In reply to tehmarks:

Worth mentioning that jo cox was also a career politician??


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