UKC

Hello UKC hive mind, hopefully you can help with this predicament. 

My mum owns a field (about 30 mins drive from where she lives) which she lets, for a very nominal amount of money (£2 per day) to a person who puts their two old horses on it.

The tenant started off paying, but then stopped. (I think they normally left cash in an envelope.) They now haven’t paid for over two years. She tells my mum various sob stories about not having money, and that she can’t find anywhere else to put the horses, and makes excuses for not paying.

Last year, when visiting I spotted the tenants car outside the field, and went for a chat. She’s clearly a fairly troubled person, but is also quite manipulative. She promised me that she would start paying again. Nothing has changed.  

My mum isn’t very confident, is starting to struggle with her memory, and doesn’t like confrontation. She also doesn’t want to harm the old horses, and is worried about the mental health of the tenant.

I think the chances of getting the money owed from the tenant are non existent, but it would be great to get the field back and either rent it out properly or sell it.

Does anyone have any experience of this sort of thing, and is able to offer any advice?

Thanks,

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Small claims court

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Find another tenant then give her notice. Or at least tell her that's what is likely to happen.

Or if you and your mam don't need the money let it go.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

As you say, trying to recover the rent owed is probably a waste of time. I would tell her you are going to are going to rent out / sell the field and give her a couple of weeks to move her horses. If she doesn't I would be inclined to see if someone like the RSPCA will take them.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The owner might be shocked to learn how much it costs to dispose of the carcass ( serious money) when the old horse dies.We are not talking of £50 here( I think its about £500-800 a horse)

So ask them to move as there is the potnetial for the owner to do a runner and leave your mum with that cost.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

If she can't afford £700 a year to rent a field she can't afford to keep horses. What does she do about vets bills, feed etc?

Get rid. 

In reply to deacondeacon:

Prioritises them perhaps?

Tom: 'What to do' is really the wrong starting point IMO. I'd suggest start with what does you mum want from an imperfect situation which can't be made perfect by any action available to her, what's her priority, what which is also realistically achievable will make her least unhappy? The money, happy horses, low stress or perhaps a sense of control?

jk

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Lacking confidence and memory failing -sounds vulnerable. Does she need power of attorney set up so you can help out?

To reduce stress for your mother it might be appropriate for you buy the field and deal with it in a more hard nosed manner with any profit to your mother.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It could be tempting to tell the owner that if she can't afford the rent for the field, she obviously can't afford to look after the horses properly and that they'll be going to the RSPCA if having the money isn't demonstrated?

The main thing is avoiding costs of disposal of the horses carcasses and them both being happy....

Edit: I've had my heart strings pulled too many times by troubled and manipulative people so that it's cost me, if the RSPCA or some other group can safeguard the horses, extricate from things sooner while it's easier and cost free. 

In reply to Timmd:

I can attest to this. It's surprising how many people will take advantage of the good will of others by deceit. Owning horses is not cheap, so I would guess this woman is in that category. From recently dealing with a similar situation, I would say give notice asap. It's the starting point for everything and not doing so can waste an awful lot of time. Have a read around and make sure you're giving notice in the appropriate manner though, as not doing so can waste even more time!

In reply to WillRawlinson: Either through deceit or just being rubbish, either way it's not the responsibility of the OP's Mum to deal with the horses, if their owner isn't paying the rent there's little grounds to think she'll pay for their disposable once they've died, it's not worth the risk.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I'd contact the local Auction mart, they will put a note up and put it on the website. 

Then I'd tell the woman she has to be of in a certain amount of time else the horses are getting turned out. It's hard but she's clearly taking the piss.

I'm surprised the prices for getting rid of dead horses, costs me 120 to get rid of a cow.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Small claims court, small money to apply, big money if you win. 

Give notice of eviction, make sure you have proof it's received if possible. Make sure they know that anything left behind after 30 days will be considered abandoned, and tell the RSPCA. What can the woman say? She's not renting the land, and she's left animals on your property. 

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Just give them notice of a rent increase from August 1st - make it a commercial rate. You will never see the money. Small claims after that to get things going.
You need a replacement or you may have the unenviable task of moving caravans and often considerable mess as we recently found out. So having a tenant can have an advantage even when not paying. 
I share the others concern about the welfare of the horses. However, some folk buy them, sacrifice a lot to look after them and it is themselves and other people who suffer as a result. They seem to be an addiction for some. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Scumbag thieves. Get them in Small Claims Court ASAP. Personally I've had enough of freeloaders like that in my long life 

IMO 2 quid a day is not a "very nominal amount of money". It's a lot of money 

Good luck to your Mum

In reply to profitofdoom:

Do you mean that’s expensive rent for two horses, or good value, or something different?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I read it as he means somebody not paying that isn't to be taken lightly.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I interpreted this in the same way that Timmd did. Not a slight on what is being CHARGED, but a good bit of justifiable indignation against the person not paying it. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Tesco will have the horses for their vegetarian range.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

If it’s David Tennant I’d be well pissed off . . . .

He’s loaded !

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

You could just wait till Appleby fair next year, it's only down the road and might cover the rent.....

In reply to deacondeacon:

Horses don’t cost a lot. Most of the cost is stabling and feed. If they live out all year and live off grass then it’s very cheap. Even cheaper if you don’t pay for the field and grass. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Come to an arrangement where she pays off the outstanding bills or at least starts to pay £1 a day for the field. Find out why she can’t pay. Taking people to court and getting CCJs can sometimes just make it a whole lot worse. How much are we looking at in total?

Another option is to rent out the field to someone else to share so you have more than 2 horses. Depends on the size of the field of course. 
 

I have no idea how you evict a horse other than lead it out of the field and change the padlock on the gate. Call the owner and tell them to collect their horses as they’re now tied up in the lane.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Serve them notice....give them 2 months as it can be difficult to find land if you have horses. Its freeloading....in my experience its not uncommon in the equine world. I've been stung myself in the past when I had a yard. Pasture land is expensive depending where you are located and there is often people looking to rent. Your mum could sell it or get some real tenants who don't take the piss...

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Until they go wrong and vets get involved!😁

In reply to nikoid:

LOL. I have 4 sisters, 2 who own horses, hells bells they are expensive....one of which seemed to cost a fortune in vets bills

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Have you look at the possibility of getting in a third party to share the costs of looking after the horses ? Its quite common for people who cant afford to own a horse pay to take on part responsibility.

In reply to nikoid:

Still unlikely to be costing £700 a year in vets fees. 

In reply to neilh:

The local hunt kennels will do it a lot cheaper than that. 

In reply to Fozzy:

None available in her part of the world.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Hi Tom, sorry I wasn't clear. I just meant that 700 quid is a lot of money, not that it was good value or a good price or a fair amount of money for anything. I meant that 700 quid is a lot of money to me. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding

In reply to Timmd:

I would suggest that reporting someone to the RSPCA to hide from your own inability to negotiate a solution is deceitful in itself.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Just keeping  a horse in a field should cost  at least £20 per week per horse so £700 p.a. is an absolute snip if it's for the pair.

When my dad died the local riding school were paying him £100 per year for six horses..I think I found the  more normal rate to be £15 per week but that was over 15 years ago. Anyway when i took over the field I showed them where the gate was. Wanting to own horses on the cheap is no reason for taking advantage of the good natured.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Horse's head on the pillow. It worked in a documentary I saw once.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Can't really refuse that type of offer, can they

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Did you find replacements quickly? 

As I say owning a horse isn’t very expensive. That works out at around only £1000 a year each. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It's a tough one to deal with and you will also need to consider your mothers feelings if you doesn't like confrontation and the effects may come back onto her.

I would start gently by sending an invoice for the outstanding rent and asking for future payments to be made regularly via bank transfer. You then have a bit of leeway to offer to spread the outstanding payments over a number of months with the threat of serving notice if she falls behind.  It is generally easier if things are put in writing.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

You need to be clearer as to what you want;

The money or the field back? Think about which one you want and the likelyhood of getting it and then take area from there as there will be different processes for both... 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Cut your losses here, I know its a substantial amount but has it really been missed?

Tell the Tennant that she's got a week to find somewhere else or you'll remove the gate. This tells them you're serious in no uncertain terms. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I didn't want replacements. When I was a boy it was a beautiful hay meadow ( which my dad actually cut with a scythe).  He was letting them use it partly as a favour but I don't think he was aware of the going rate and they weren't in a hurry to put him right. 

Fifteen years on and its looking a bit more like it used to  but I tried the scythe when I was a young man and didn't last five minutes.....

In reply to ThunderCat:

His Mum might get a part in a big movie as a bonus.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I'll do the horse carcass disposal for 300 if required.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know if dead bodies burn easily?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

They used to section off the field we used. 1/4 for horses and then rotate round for hay. Some of the hay was kept for horses during the winter. Some was sold. The horses need to be restricted or they‘ll eat too much and get ill. 
 

It’s not always a case of being taken advantage of. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Unwanted horses in fields are a nightmare.  We had this problem a while ago with fly-grazing, which is essentially what you have now.  The problems are:

You can't sell a horse without a passport and the appropriate inoculations

A horse passport costs more than most fly grazed horses are worth.  Some horses are only worth £5.

You can be held liable for the welfare of a horse grazed on land you own

The RSPCA generally can't help.

There are specialists who remove them for a fee.  They do it at the dead of night because the people associated with fly grazing are generally not pleasant.  The bulk of the specialist's income comes from fly-grazed herds of cattle.  They remove them to an undisclosed location.

Our break came when two horses got out onto the lane and the police were called.  They put them back into the field, guessing but not knowing that that was where they had come from.  We told them that putting fly-grazed horses into the field of an elderly couple (my parents) who lacked the capacity to look after them was unreasonable.  They took them away. 

The brainwave was that instead of repairing the fence, we took down a length of it at the top of a bank, which would allow animals out but not vehicles in.  We put up a big sign at the gate saying that the field was not secure for grazing.  They've been back a couple of times.  The horses got out the first time and were taken away again by the police.  They've been back a few times since, (wheel marks on the track) but I think they then brought someone with them who could read.

I would be inclined, if possible, to tell the owner of the horses that the field was no longer going to be available for grazing and the fences were going to be taken down to stop fly-grazing.  However, payment of arrears and a year in advance might prevent this.  Payment in 10 months' time for the following year might prevent the fences being taken down to prevent fly-grazing in future..

In reply to mwr72:

And when a horse and a car full people die you'll have your field. This is an empty threat and is worthless.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Not everyone takes advantage. I'm sure plenty of people pay the going rate, otherwise there wouldn't be a "going rate".

But if you run a business and pay a 90 year old person per year what you should reasonably be paying weekly, it could probably be argued that you are taking advantage.

In reply to Max Hangs:

Quick lime or a local pig farmer... 

... So I hear

In reply to lanky:

Hey Josh,

Do you mean sell the field, or the horses, or advertise it for rent?

X

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Hiya, 

Well you could sell the horses at Appleby pretty sure will be no questions asked purchases there. 

Id keep the field and rent it, but maybe its time to sell, who knows what's going to happen with the price of land with Brexit. Could be a big drop but normally it doest go down much. 

Message me where it is, I might know people local for renting.

In reply to Timmd:

I'm not sure where I said it was the responsibility of the landowner to deal with the horses, or that they should take any kind of risk..? My suggestion, based on personal experience of having people refuse to pay rent or move out, was to give the appropriate notice ASAP. 

You can still probe all other avenues open to you, but giving notice starts the ball rolling on the last resort of going to court and to not do so will delay your ability to do this if and when you decide to.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

You do receive some benefit. You get your grass kept down, if your not going to cut it for hay. Watch out as some people will ask you for money to put stock on the field to graze it. So they may have an argument in their favour. So, with the land comes responsibility, you do have to maintain it and this is cost or income to you. Depending on the impact of the sale of land/importance to you, it is probably the best option for you unless you want to maintain it.

In reply to WillRawlinson:

It wasn't my intention to imply that you did do. 

In reply to lanky:

Cost me nearly £400000 to get rid of mine!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Is there any update on this situation? Sorry if that is too nosey a question. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Not really. My sister waited to try and talk with the tenant earlier this week, and she never appeared.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

by appointment or just waiting on the offchance? It all sounds very awkward and I hope you resolve it soon. That you are posting about it on here indicates that it is playing on your mind and I guess it is quite a distraction 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Repossess the horses, she can't afford their upkeep. Sell them for glue and keep the change.