UKC

The end of the clap

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.

Clapping for the NHS is all very well if you’re that way inclined (and I’m not), but I’m curious to see how those who are enthusiastic about it are going to decide when to stop doing it, because they’re going to have to at some point. 
 

Will it only happen once there are zero daily deaths from CV, or does the daily toll only have to drop below an arbitrary figure e.g. 100? 
 


 

9

This is part of the reason I've never done the clap. Same reason I never say 'bless you' when people sneeze.. If I say it once, I have to keep it up forever. And I just can't be arsed.

Honestly, the clap thing hasn't been about NHS workers for a while now. It's more about being seen to be clapping, rattling a pan, or the most hilarious one setting off fireworks (we no supposed to be minimizing strain on the NHS? What's the stats on firework hospitalisations I wonder?)..

The louder you are, the more you support the NHS, the more of a good person you are in the eye of your neighbours. 

It's self gratification for most people. 

It'll probably end when the lockdown does, because people will have better stuff to do. 

16
 freeflyer 26 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

So I understand from your post that you're not particularly grateful for the response of the health services, and don't believe that they've gone in any way above and beyond the requirements of their job in responding to the pandemic.

Is that right?

Or are you saying that standing outside your door at eight o'clock every Thursday looking at your politically correct neighbours is not something you want to get involved with?

105
Clauso 27 Apr 2020
In reply to freeflyer:

I believe that Frank has a particular appreciation of the work that the NHS does, particularly as a husky, having worked for them previously. His reasons for not clapping must be otherwise... And it can't be easy to do with paws. 

2
 Dave the Rave 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Clauso:

Husky’s don’t paws for a break apparently once they start, so I understand his hesitance in starting.

In reply to freeflyer:

There is a certain amount of "Dianafication" of the NHS at the moment, comparable with the poppy rage seen each autumn. 

I understand and share Frank's reluctance to get involved. 

Post edited at 00:27
1
In reply to Frank the Husky:

The first significant reduction will be seen/heard on the next Thursday with poor weather, perhaps this week? 

Once that has broken the cycle, it will fade rapidly. 

 Stichtplate 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> This is part of the reason I've never done the clap. Same reason I never say 'bless you' when people sneeze.. If I say it once, I have to keep it up forever. And I just can't be arsed.

How about please and thank you, good luck or any one of a hundred time consuming little phrases that waste precious time. Who's got time for courtesy? Who's got time to say "sorry for your loss"?

> Honestly, the clap thing hasn't been about NHS workers for a while now. It's more about being seen to be clapping, rattling a pan, or the most hilarious one setting off fireworks (we no supposed to be minimizing strain on the NHS? What's the stats on firework hospitalisations I wonder?)..

Jesus. Lots of support from the UKC massive for what reads to me as small minded pettiness. You're right though. It hasn't been about the NHS for a while now. Its explicitly been about everyone who's out there keeping stuff ticking over and more than that, to my mind a least, its about reaffirming that we're still a community despite social distancing. But hey, maybe you're with Hilda and there really is no such thing as society.

> The louder you are, the more you support the NHS, the more of a good person you are in the eye of your neighbours. 

> It's self gratification for most people. 

and what are you basing that on? cos I don't recognise that characterisation among my friends and neighbours.

> It'll probably end when the lockdown does, because people will have better stuff to do. 

I hope it does end with the lockdown. That'd seem appropriate, after all when lockdown ends we can get back to the methods that we normally use to let those around us know that we're connected, that we're there for each other. A case in point, this week sees the funeral of a 48 year old paramedic who spent 20 years serving his community, working out of a station 15 miles from my back door. He died of CV19 almost certainly contracted while working in PPE he'd have been well aware was not really up to the task. Instead of the massive turnout this man deserved, his wife and kids will bury him with a maximum of 7 other mourners. Hopefully on Thursday night they would have taken comfort from the fact that an awful lot of people gave a shit. Hopefully many of the other 20,000 bereaved families have had their isolated heartbreak eased just a little too. Whatever, hard to see how so many find a minute of weekly clapping over a handful of weeks such a huge imposition.

You don't have to do it, you don't have to be seen doing it (I've been in my back garden each time I've been home for it) and you certainly don't have to use up even more of your precious time typing up a social media post seeking to piss all over other peoples reasons for wanting to do it.

Post edited at 01:52
18
Andy Gamisou 27 Apr 2020
In reply to freeflyer:

My wife works as an ICU nurse (not in the UK, but in a country that has the clap too).  She hates it with a passion.  I understand that most of her staff feel the same. Draw any conclusion you like from that.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Never clapped never intend to. 

The NHS staff have my deep respect for their service to society 24, hours a day 7days a week ,365 days a year.

I find these type of mass viral (forgive the use of the word)  demonstrations patronising and somewhat childish .

Sure I'll get flamed for this opinion but that's fine .

 girlymonkey 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I agree, it feels like virtue signalling. 

As it is supposedly for carers (not just NHS), I feel justified in taking umbrage  at the fact that my dog ends up a shivering wreck under the table every Thursday evening (more due to the fireworks and pots being banged rather than just the clapping. Clapping alone would just make him bark). Thankfully, my husband is usually home then otherwise, as I often finish work at 8, the dog would be on his own with no one to calm him. 

There is no need and it helps no one. If you want to show appreciation for NHS, petition your MP for better funding! I think that is a motion all could get behind!

6
 Billhook 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

If we clapped no one would hear.  Our nearest neighbour is around 700yards away.

Would I clap?  No.  Despite the lurid headlines in the rags and in the newspapers there are hospitals and many nurses who simply have not encountered covid 19.  Neither of our two local NHS hospitals have had a case yet.

4
 toddles 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

My niece is a nurse and she doesn't like it either!

 mark s 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Im 100% with you martin

Ive not clapped and im not going to. Total respect for what they are doing. I dont feel the need to do a look at me type thing on my drive. As others have said, its very poppy based, the more poppies (louder) the more respect. If you dont clap then you dont respect the nhs. 

Also, i love the reply from someone who obviously doesnt know what you used to do but feel the need to question your right to be critical. Some sure know how to make tits of themselves.

 summo 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

The first clap should have been the last. A one off gesture to show appreciation for people at the beginning of a long haul. Each week it's repeated, it's value diminishes as it's no longer a special sign of appreciation. It's routine, or regular ( to steal the appropriate word from the other thread). 

 Richard Horn 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Chive Talkin\':

Interestingly I read an article that suggested the same thing - that the NHS is full of professionals who are able to deal with the CV crisis, not because they are "heroes" but because they are highly skilled and it is within their capabilities. In some ways it is patronising although I do feel that the front line staff in the CV wards surrounded by high viral load patients are putting themselves in a position of risk they probably would never dreamt of when they started.

The suggestion was it would be nice if all of those clapping might like to think about that next time there is a discussion on taxation to fund the NHS, or voting in election etc.

In reply to Richard Horn:

> The suggestion was it would be nice if all of those clapping might like to think about that next time there is a discussion on taxation to fund the NHS, or voting in election etc.

Ah, but they applauded, banged pots and pans, put a rainbow in the window and sent a tenner to Capt Tom, why should they pay more tax? Their duty is done. 

1
cap'nChino 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> The louder you are, the more you support the NHS, the more of a good person you are in the eye of your neighbours. 

> It's self gratification for most people. 

To change one of Orwell's paragraphs. "The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Clap was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in".

"And yet the Clap that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp"

Post edited at 08:29
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I feel similar to many on here too.  

The first night I clapped with enthusiasm, the second, slightly less so and now I feel its been taken over by the worst of the UK media, the red tops, Sky and ITV.  Everything I hate about mainstream crap.

Like others, I am genuinely humbled by the work everyone does to keep us all well and supplied but I now feel that the clap is counter productive, to the point where I almost feel ashamed that I no longer stand on my doorstep, making my hands raw and bellowing my lungs out.

To Stitchplate, Off-Duty, and the others on here on the front line, whatever it is that you do.  I salute you, I appreciate what you do and I will show my respect with dignity, respectfully lifting a glass to you, whether this is Thursday night at 8pm or any other time...

 StefanB 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I find it amazing how much debate "the clap" seems to create in the UK.

I have mentioned our (Spanish) version of the clap a few times on here. People just either take a break from what they are doing and either clap and greet the neighbors for a few minutes, or they don't. Some put on some music and have a good time, others don't. Nobody cares who claps and who doesn't. Noone asks which politician has clapped the loudest and no one tries to politicize it. 

One day it will stop because the critical mass for people clapping is not reached anymore. No one will make a fuzz about it. And I am pretty sure most health workers won't be annoyed about the lack of clapping. They appreciate it while it lasts but I bet they would prefer better hours and a pay rise. 

Not everything has to be a big statement. People here just seem to able to make a difference between politics and a spontaneous celebration of the effort some people are making to get every through this.  

russellcampbell 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Judging by the majority of posts on this thread it's now politically correct on this forum to criticise the Thursday night clapping. I do it every Thursday when the young 17 year old lad on my crescent puts on his kilt and plays 2 tunes on the bagpipes. It brings a tear to my eye and in some way makes me feel better in these terrible times. I don't know why. That's good enough for me.

3
In reply to Stichtplate:

> How about please and thank you, good luck or any one of a hundred time consuming little phrases that waste precious time. Who's got time for courtesy? Who's got time to say "sorry for your loss"?

Well not sure how often you have to tell someone 'sorry for your loss'.. Doesn't come up the often now, does it? 

> and what are you basing that on? cos I don't recognise that characterisation among my friends and neighbours.

A few of my friends have told me they only clap because they'd be the only ones in their street not clapping otherwise. Also, without getting too political, I wonder how many of those clapping are Tory voters.. Voters who've overseen the chronic underfunding of the NHS over the past decade. Maybe they see this as their penance? 

> You don't have to do it, you don't have to be seen doing it (I've been in my back garden each time I've been home for it) and you certainly don't have to use up even more of your precious time typing up a social media post seeking to piss all over other peoples reasons for wanting to do it.

Not like there's much else to do while I'm stuck indoors. Just like the clappers, when the lockdown ends I'll find much more interesting uses for my time!

11
 Oceanrower 27 Apr 2020
In reply to russellcampbell:

Bagpipes have brought a tear to many an eye.

Not always of joy...

Post edited at 09:31
1
 Babika 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Gosh there's a lot of grumpy people on here. 

I didn't do it the first 2 weeks probably because of the reasons mentioned but do now mainly because its a chance to see the neighbours, wave hello and feel a bit of community warmth. Its pretty miserable in lockdown sometimes and 5 minutes on Thursday seems precious little effort to keep in touch. 

That said, I won't miss it when its gone! 

 Wimlands 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Babika:

You’re right...it’s a chance to get out, wave to the neighbours, say hi and foster some genuine community spirit on our street.

1
russellcampbell 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Babika:

> Gosh there's a lot of grumpy people on here. 

Cynical rather than grumpy. It's Tory voters doing the clapping to ease their conscience blah blah blah. Absolutely no evidence for this.

3
 oldie 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

I haven't got the impression that many in this thread have: one active and one inactive nurse in nearby houses and they both join the clapping. Other health workers I've spoken to are also pro. Another motive may well be that its the one time in the week during lockdown that the neighbours all see and chat to each other. A bit like people enjoying chatting after a funeral (unless they are close relatives of the deceased).

 Stichtplate 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> Well not sure how often you have to tell someone 'sorry for your loss'.. Doesn't come up the often now, does it? 

Unfortunately, I average a few times a week at the moment.

> A few of my friends have told me they only clap because they'd be the only ones in their street not clapping otherwise.

Maybe they should grow a pair? I'm not a big fan of peer pressure, if I don't want to do something I don't do it. If I find that I cant readily justify why I'm not joining in I tend to reassess my reasoning.

>Also, without getting too political, I wonder how many of those clapping are Tory voters.. Voters who've overseen the chronic underfunding of the NHS over the past decade. Maybe they see this as their penance? 

A point many others on here have made. No doubt after this is over NHS staff will continue to be poorly paid and care home staff will carry on scraping by on minimum wage. Hard to see how a lack of financial support is going to be much improved by removing a couple of minutes of moral support too

> Not like there's much else to do while I'm stuck indoors. Just like the clappers, when the lockdown ends I'll find much more interesting uses for my time!

Each to their own I suppose. Personally I'd rather not look back on moaning on social media about clapping as a vital part of my contribution to the CV19 pandemic.  

Post edited at 09:54
2
Removed User 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Will this be a bit like applauding Stalin after one of his speeches?

The first one to stop ended up in a Gulag?

Personally I think the government should tell us that we don't need to clap anymore but instead they'll collect a few quid a week from all of us with jobs to better fund the service we all support so much.

1
 DancingOnRock 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

It’ll end when people aren’t sitting at home doing nothing at 8pm. 

russellcampbell 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Removed User:

> Will this be a bit like applauding Stalin after one of his speeches?

> The first one to stop ended up in a Gulag?

Are you really comparing people clapping for NHS workers, carers etc with clapping for one of Stalin's speeches? The very fact that people are allowed to criticise the clapping shows that your comparison has absolutely no validity.

3
 jkarran 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> My wife works as an ICU nurse (not in the UK, but in a country that has the clap too).  She hates it with a passion.  I understand that most of her staff feel the same. Draw any conclusion you like from that.

Why does she hate it?

Actually I'm not even sure if the post is serious or a play on 'the clap'.

jk

Removed User 27 Apr 2020
In reply to russellcampbell:

I was being light hearted in my first two sentences.

The second paragraph was my main point. 

This is the opportunity to raise income tax to properly fund the NHS. If people don't want to put their hands in their pockets then they shouldn't be out clapping on a Thursday evening.

In reply to Stichtplate:

> Each to their own I suppose. Personally I'd rather not look back on moaning on social media about clapping as a vital part of my contribution to the CV19 pandemic.  

I've installed measures in our block of flats to help reduce infection vectors, I go shopping for those at risk who are self isolating inside their flats, I'm on the NHS volunteer app (although it seems to not actually have any volunteer work to do?).. 

I doubt I'll look back on this time and think 'Gosh I could have done more, if only I clapped or let off fireworks once a week, and spent a little less time on forums..'

I could definitely do more to help, it's just clapping on my doorstep is low on the list. 

I've also seen varying attitudes from NHS workers I know. Some like it, some dislike it. 

Post edited at 10:34
 TobyA 27 Apr 2020
In reply to russellcampbell:

> Cynical rather than grumpy. It's Tory voters doing the clapping to ease their conscience blah blah blah. Absolutely no evidence for this.

Yep, and quite clearly bollocks. People all across the country go and clap, as they are doing in countries all over the world. Didn't we all pinch the idea from the Italians originally? 

It's funny that lots of people who don't want to do it (which is fine; who cares and who will notice?) feel the need to post at some length - be it here or elsewhere on social media - about their refusal and then go on about people clapping as the ones who are "virtue signalling"! Lolz.

Part of being too cool for school, is that people just know it. If you go around telling everyone you're too cool for school, you're probably not. 

3
 Stichtplate 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> I've also seen varying attitudes from NHS workers I know. Some like it, some dislike it. 

But most like it and even the one's that aren't that fussed appreciate the gesture. Still, next Thursday I'm sure you can sit smugly at your keyboard basking in the warm glow of knowing you're not one of those sentimental proles stood on their doorsteps clapping like wind up monkeys.

2
 jkarran 27 Apr 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I feel similar to many on here too. The first night I clapped with enthusiasm, the second, slightly less so and now I feel its been taken over by the worst of the UK media, the red tops, Sky and ITV.  Everything I hate about mainstream crap.

I don't.

Public displays really aren't my thing at all, I'd usually rather have a quiet, often curmudgeonly and cynical thought about what had caught the public imagination this time before dismissing it and that's if I'd even noticed.

I didn't clap to begin with, pointless showy bollocks right, but I did go out and listen and think. Since I've noticed and realised splitting the little community I live in apart to protect those at most risk has actually pulled it together remarkably effectively, It's still tough on people but folk are checking up on each other where they barely nodded previously, helping where they can and a minute of communal clapping where we can come together, nod, smile and wave across the street or stand alone in a back garden to express appreciation for and solidarity not just with our health service and the others putting their health on the line to keep us fed and safe and comfortable but also our neighbours separated from friends and families, facing serious challenges behind closed doors, changing life plans, grieving alone. Personally I think it's nice and worthwhile, if others came to different conclusions, that's fine too.

And no, we're not all tax shy Tories caught up in a bit of back slapping virtue signalling who need to rethink our voting habits. A significant majority in the UK aren't and weren't, our electoral system is broken and abused.

And yes, my dog hates it too.

I imagine the clapping will transform into something else or more likely peter out as restrictions ease and more normal social activity resumes but that looks a long way off from here. We appear to have this just barely under control and that's likely changing incrementally for the worse as the weather and fatigue leads to rules being flexed. We probably have further restrictions coming in order to turn the corner and buy us some breathing space (assuming we don't bottle it and plump for slaughter, not a given) or we'll be living like this for the foreseeable with R hovering right around 1. What or where those new curbs will be I don't know, it's hard to see where it's still spreading that slightly different lockdowns elsewhere apparently nipped off. Differences in the workplaces that are open would be my guess and maybe indoor masks.

jk

Post edited at 11:02
 DancingOnRock 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Most people who work in hospitals do it because they care, not because they’re attention seeking heroes. 
 

Clapping is not a political statement. It’s a showing of appreciation. English people aren’t great at accepting praise where it’s due. Some attention seek but mostly we are a quiet bunch who get on quietly with our lives. (Celebrities and influencers and Sharon on Facebook aside)
 

I’m not sure where this “anyone who votes Tory wants to dismantle the NHS and should stay indoors and have a good look at themselves” sentiment fits in. It’s pretty tasteless. I’m yet to meet a single person in the Uk who believes we shouldn’t have an NHS in some form. 

Post edited at 11:07
Andy Gamisou 27 Apr 2020
In reply to jkarran:

> Why does she hate it?

I'll ask her next time I see her.

1
Andy Gamisou 27 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Why are you directing any of this at me? I know why most people work in hospitals.  My mother worked close to 50 years for the NHS as a nurse.  My father his entire life on the district.  My wife around 30 years for the NHS as a nurse.

Post edited at 12:20
 hang_about 27 Apr 2020

I think the 'clap' has morphed into a 'we're all in it together' movement. I don't get the feeling non-clappers are being shamed in my neck of the woods. Lots of people come out, wave at the neighbours, ask if they are OK etc. I was out walking one evening and heard the swell of sound rolling across Sheffield - it felt good.

We have family in the frontline at the NHS. They know that they, and all of their colleagues, are appreciated with or without this public display of gratitude.

It is Sheffield though - and people say hello to total strangers when out and about. Maybe the vibe is different elsewhere.

 DancingOnRock 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Limitations of the forum. 
 

You said your wife hates it. I’m just bringing some suggestions to the forum. Not directed ‘at’ you. It’s a forum, and a place for discussion isn’t it? 

3
In reply to freeflyer:

So...there's a 50/50 chance that anyone who doesn't clap isn't grateful for the huge burdens and responsibilities NHS staff deal with under stressful conditions with shit pay. I'm guessing you're playing devil's advocate there, because "not clapping" isn't anything to do with someone's view of the NHS. That would be analogous to saying all those who clap (e.g. on the steps of Downing Street) love the NHS and have never briefed against it, and have no desire to decimate it when no-one's looking.

You're right about the second one. I find the clapping to be simplistic, patronising bullshit, which only serves to give those in government who have been responsible for the dismantling of the NHS a "get out of jail" card. Clapping seems to be a good reason for not thinking rationally.

My next door neighbours are loud clappers, and are fervent Tories. They couldn't understand the contradiction when I pointed that out, but then they wouldn't, would they!

4
 DancingOnRock 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

>My next door neighbours are loud clappers, and are fervent Tories. They couldn't understand the contradiction when I pointed that out, but then they wouldn't, would they!

Are you deliberately trolling? 

4
In reply to hang_about:

Same good vibe where I live to the south of the Peak.

Post edited at 13:22
Northern Star 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Some simple types are using the excuse 'but don't you care about the NHS?' as a slander against anyone who dares to disagree with them, or their personal made up interpretation of what the government guidelines actually require people to do or not do at the moment.

 Tom Valentine 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

> because "not clapping" isn't anything to do with someone's view of the NHS....

And by the same token, clapping isn't anything to do with someone's view of the government. 

 Bobling 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Not read all for the moment but will come back when I have a second, but here's some thoughts:

1) Bagpipes - I wish! In the marmite world of bagpipes I am lover.
2) Our neighbour lives by herself and celebrated her 97th birthday a couple of weeks back without any family there.  She's made it out the last couple of weeks,  think many on the street have never seen her before, nice to know she is still with us at least once a week.  Her secret to long life seems to be lots of fags.
3) I think week two me and biggest were on the doorstep when my other half trundled down the stairs to join in.  "Well this is nice" she said.  "Is it?" I shot back with an arched eyebrow knowing how awkward we can find social things, particularly obligatory ones.  She was grumpy with me all night after that - she's NHS.
4) I enjoyed putting on my Scouts uniform last week and getting the boys to do the same, nice to see a couple of others out on the street.  First time I have advanced from the doorstep to the end of the drive.
5) I think this evolved organically elsewhere and we have adopted it a little quickly without too much thinking.  What is our exit strategy?
6) Is it wrong to stop clapping to go back to Fortnite as no doubt in the time taken to clap someone will have killed you and stolen all your stuff?

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Your question is meaningless - you need to elaborate a great deal more if you want an answer...

 David55 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I am so disappointed. When I  saw the title I thought I  was  going to  learn that  gonorrhea had been  wiped out.  Alas not so. 

 freeflyer 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Thanks for the reply; I admit that I failed to understand your OP, and was trying to figure it out.

I don't always do the clap thing, but when I do it's a good chance to say hello to neighbours (mostly  > 80) and see if I can do anything. In the context of that, the whole Capt Tom thing, and the general support for some way for helpless and otherwise isolated people to say thank you, it just seemed a really strange thing to post.

I guess I reacted in a rather sensitive way to what may have been more of a political statement than an opinion about the health services. If so, I understand your reasoning, and while I largely agree with it, this still seems a strange time to bring it up. But whatever floats your boat.

I'm guessing that my neighbours will in a few weeks all be back to complaining about their illnesses, online appointments only, having to pay for everything, and wondering when they are going to die.

Pan Ron 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

> You don't have to do it, you don't have to be seen doing it (I've been in my back garden each time I've been home for it) and you certainly don't have to use up even more of your precious time typing up a social media post seeking to piss all over other peoples reasons for wanting to do it.

Seems harsh.  Whether you join the army as a rifleman, the navy as bus driver, or become a policeman, a firefighter, a fisherman, or ambulance staff, there may be times in your career where you face a higher risk of death or illness than the general population.  I can perfectly understand anyone who feels fawning displays of admiration or gratitude in those times are unnecessary.  Its the job and you get on with it - that was certainly my feeling when I signed up and wouldn't begrudge anyone who turned their noses up at the parades, pageantry and language used to describe the role.

As much as people express their support for it, there's nothing wrong with people expressing discomfort at it.

On the plus-side, I've enjoyed coming home from my cycle ride, everyone on their doorsteps, seemingly cheering my arrival.

Post edited at 17:56
 Stichtplate 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Pan Ron:

> Seems harsh.  Whether you join the army as a rifleman, the navy as bus driver, or become a policeman, a firefighter, a fisherman, or ambulance staff, there may be times in your career where you face a higher risk of death or illness than the general population. 

Of course. But soldiers aren't normally told 3 days after conflict breaks out that they no longer require helmets, couple of days later, body armour is no longer necessary, then respirators disappear (etc, etc). Nor are soldiers expected to assume the responsibilities and duties of the rank above for the duration, without increased rank and pay. Soldiers also get an extra £29 per diem in recognition of the increased risks they bear as soon as they start active duties. Can't speak for bus drivers but Amazon drivers for instance get an extra £2 per hour. The ambulance service receives it's portion of a weekly clap along. Not too much to ask is it?

This is a medical emergency unprecedented in living memory. Odd (since you bring up soldiers) that the Anzio veteran in his 90's I recently attended seemed aware of the large increase in risk frontline workers are facing, while you do not.

 summo 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

You'll find soldiers were driving around Afghanistan and Iraq in vehicles with little or no protection against ieds for several years. Hundreds were killed or maimed.

As a side, it's great if families get this pay out, but according the the r4 more or less programme last week, the numbers of nhs staff dying from covid was the same proportion as the number of people of working age dying who weren't nhs workers. 

Post edited at 18:22
2
 Tom Valentine 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Pan Ron:

> As much as people express their support for it, there's nothing wrong with people expressing discomfort at it.

If you can express your discomfort at the clapping without  openly speculating about other people's motives and politics, then express away.

1
 TobyA 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Pan Ron:

I'm going to try the cycling through the cheering crowds idea this week! Genius.

Did you mean join "the navy as a bus driver?" Do they have many buses? I'm not sure if many normal bus drivers expected their lives might be particularly at risk, although that sadly seems to be the case   here and in the US now.

cb294 27 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Reading the title I thought azithromycin and ceftriaxone, but apparently you are talking about something else...

edit: on a more serious note, nursing staff in Bavaria get a 500€ bonus. Seems better than staged applause, which is the appreciation equivalent of confusing getting some idiotic hashtag to "trend" on twatter for 15 minutes with actual political activism. #Jesuischarlie and 10.000 other examples, anyone?

CB

Post edited at 20:22
 Mick Ward 27 Apr 2020
In reply to russellcampbell:

> Judging by the majority of posts on this thread it's now politically correct on this forum to criticise the Thursday night clapping. I do it every Thursday when the young 17 year old lad on my crescent puts on his kilt and plays 2 tunes on the bagpipes. It brings a tear to my eye and in some way makes me feel better in these terrible times. I don't know why. That's good enough for me.

If it brings a tear to your eye, then clearly you've got good intentions.

But when I see utter bastards who want to destroy the NHS clapping, that's a different kettle of fish. 'Cos they ain't got good intentions. And when, in November, they pin their poppy badges on, to justify November's dose of inhumanity, well they ain't got good intentions then either.

It's about intentions...

Mick

4
 krikoman 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> It's self gratification for most people. 

Even if it was this, is it such a bad thing to give people a little lift, when they're stuck in the house?

2 minutes every week, is that so much you have to turn it to shit?

3
 krikoman 27 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

> You'll find soldiers were driving around Afghanistan and Iraq in vehicles with little or no protection against ieds for several years. Hundreds were killed or maimed.

> As a side, it's great if families get this pay out, but according the the r4 more or less programme last week, the numbers of nhs staff dying from covid was the same proportion as the number of people of working age dying who weren't nhs workers. 


Are you really trying to compare being  in the army, to being a nurse? What's wrong with you?

As an aside, the NHS staff are still going to work and trying to make people well again, they should be protected during their work. for all you know the majority of the people coming into hospital, might well have been the one's taking no notice of the lock down.

Your comparisons are shit ones.

5
 FactorXXX 27 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Are you really trying to compare being  in the army, to being a nurse? What's wrong with you?

Wouldn't you be better off levelling that criticism at Stichtplate as opposed to Summo? 

 krikoman 27 Apr 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

> Well not sure how often you have to tell someone 'sorry for your loss'.. Doesn't come up the often now, does it? 

I found it was a great comfort when my dad died. It's cost them nowt to say, but it was nice they bothered to. They didn't have to. No one has to say please and thank you, but many of us do.

> A few of my friends have told me they only clap because they'd be the only ones in their street not clapping otherwise. Also, without getting too political, I wonder how many of those clapping are Tory voters.. Voters who've overseen the chronic underfunding of the NHS over the past decade. Maybe they see this as their penance? 

Then they idiots, I know people who don't because they're too shy, and feel a bit self-conscious, a bit like not dancing unless your a bit pissed. I understand this but if clapping cheers one person up who's had a shit shift, then it's worth it.

I don't give a toss who claps Tory, Labour or Monster Raving Loony, we're appreciating people saving other people's lives, what better thing can someone do for another human being?

> Not like there's much else to do while I'm stuck indoors. Just like the clappers, when the lockdown ends I'll find much more interesting uses for my time!

Hopefully NHS staff will go back to normal working then too, and maybe, just maybe, the Tories next door will think supporting the NHS is worth paying for. If not what have YOU lost?

I just don't get why two minutes of peoples time is such a f*cking chore.

How do I say thank you to the NHS staff? I'm stuck at home, so how do I do it? I don't have the power to give then all pay rises. If I could I would, I didn't vote Tory, so I've already done my bit according to some people here.

Post edited at 23:44
2
 krikoman 27 Apr 2020
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Wouldn't you be better off levelling that criticism at Stichtplate as opposed to Summo? 


Not really, but if you think so then yes. People, should at least, join the army and expect to be shot at, dying is one of the downsides of the job.

You shouldn't expect to die, being a nurse or a doctor in the NHS. I thought Summo was trying to make this comparison.

 Stichtplate 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

> You'll find soldiers were driving around Afghanistan and Iraq in vehicles with little or no protection against ieds for several years. Hundreds were killed or maimed.

> As a side, it's great if families get this pay out, but according the the r4 more or less programme last week, the numbers of nhs staff dying from covid was the same proportion as the number of people of working age dying who weren't nhs workers. 

But in contrast to our situation, those soldiers didn’t start off in tanks and get downgraded to land rovers by the powers that be.

As for the stats presented by more or less... more holes than a string vest. Four U.K. paramedics dead of covid so far, out of 26000 registered (registered, not necessarily practicing). Those numbers blow radio 4’s completely out of the water.

 Pete Pozman 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Richard Horn:

> Interestingly I read an article that suggested the same thing - that the NHS is full of professionals who are able to deal with the CV crisis, not because they are "heroes" but because they are highly skilled and it is within their capabilities. In some ways it is patronising although I do feel that the front line staff in the CV wards surrounded by high viral load patients are putting themselves in a position of risk they probably would never dreamt of when they started.

> The suggestion was it would be nice if all of those clapping might like to think about that next time there is a discussion on taxation to fund the NHS, or voting in election etc.

I would share a red heart with I promise to pay more tax to fund the NHS. Last week I did glad hands as no one can see or hear me anyway. Think I'll revert to prayers and actually say some. 

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

> Are you really trying to compare being  in the army, to being a nurse? What's wrong with you?

Put your misdirected nhs sentiment back in the box. Try reading the comment I replied to.

At no point did I knock the work of the nhs.  

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

> As for the stats presented by more or less... more holes than a string vest. Four U.K. paramedics dead of covid so far, out of 26000 registered (registered, not necessarily practicing). Those numbers blow radio 4’s completely out of the water.

The one thing the r4 More or Less programme is known for is being statistically correct. That's what the entire programme is about. Listen to it if you don't believe me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02nrss1/episodes/downloads

Ps. The programme did look at several professions. Bus drivers have died at above the average for working age adults. Which could be down to lack of ppe, but other factors such as general health issues. The one thing the programme doesn't do is wild speculation.

 JohnBson 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

True heroes normally don't want their medals, they normally say 'I was just doing my job, anyone else would have done the same'. The key thing that separates them is that when the shit hit the fan they worked through the fear and took risks that their colleagues thought unjustifiable in order to save the life of others.

To this end not every NHS worker is a hero, most are just doing their job in tough times. Some however are absolutely entitled to the status, the ones who have done more than what their peers felt was humanly possible against adversity without any thought for risk or reward. Selflessness doesn't have a hash tag. 

I did clap once but stopped that weekend when the nurses Union talked up withdrawing labour because that isn't heroism. It's precisely the opposite. 

4
 JohnBson 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Love a good UKC we all hate the Tories rant. My mum is an NHS key worker who voted Tory. They do exist...

People who believe they are mutually exclusive need to crawl out from under whatever rock they hide beneath and have a good hard look around them.

Either their immediate social circle is lacking in diversity of opinion. Either that or they've simply silenced all the detractors from their orthodoxy by othering and haranguing them. You know the behaviour of 'nice' community spirited people. 

3
 Stichtplate 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

> The one thing the r4 More or Less programme is known for is being statistically correct. That's what the entire programme is about. Listen to it if you don't believe me.

I had listened to it. It would have been rather stupid of me to reference it if I hadn't. May I suggest you re-listen yourself as you don't seem to have retained the stand out figure. 1 in 19,000 death rate in the working age population. As I said in the post you were replying to;

Four U.K. paramedics dead of covid so far, out of 26,000 registered (registered, not necessarily practicing). Those numbers blow radio 4’s completely out of the water.

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

And there could be other factors, field size etc. I don't know.. As you'll have gathered from the programme, speculation isn't their game. 

Speculation; why paramedics, their exposure time is arguably less than hospitals or care home staff? Did the 4 have other medical conditions?

Let's keep this sensible, I'm not attacking paramedics, the nhs or you.. just merely following or quoting the data. 

mick taylor 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I go for a clap and will most likely stop when there is a formal acknowledgement that lockdown is being stepped down (which will coincide with low death rates and hospital admissions).

I really dont see a problem with it, but I tend not to overanalyse many things especially if I see it is doing no harm.

 Ridge 28 Apr 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

> Love a good UKC we all hate the Tories rant. My mum is an NHS key worker who voted Tory. They do exist...

> People who believe they are mutually exclusive need to crawl out from under whatever rock they hide beneath and have a good hard look around them.

You're right, we shouldn't view people as all being a single mass, even if some have views we find objectionable.

> I did clap once but stopped that weekend when the nurses union talked up withdrawing labour..

Oh.

 Stichtplate 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

> Speculation; why paramedics, their exposure time is arguably less than hospitals or care home staff? Did the 4 have other medical conditions?

The New York Times has a simpler explanation;

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/15/business/economy/coronavirus...

Worth noting that dentists and flight attendants aren't really working much at the moment.

> Let's keep this sensible, I'm not attacking paramedics, the nhs or you.. just merely following or quoting the data. 

You're quoting dodgy data to support your contention that frontline workers aren't taking any extra risks. I'm presenting data refuting that contention. Who's not being sensible?

 Tom Valentine 28 Apr 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

I wonder whether today's minute's silence will be construed by anyone as hypocrisy or virtue signalling.

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Worth noting that dentists and flight attendants aren't really working much at the moment.

Of course frequency of potential exposure 'may' increase the risk. Hence why the r4 programme referenced bus drivers, they have a lot more passengers than an ambulance! 

> You're quoting dodgy data to support your contention that frontline workers aren't taking any extra risks. I'm presenting data refuting that contention. Who's not being sensible?

I'd argue the r4 programme doesn't publish dodgy data. 

Maybe it's too early for us or the programme to drawn conclusions. Maybe underlying health and general fitness, obesity, genetics, strain of shifts on the immune system etc. Is a bigger factor than occupation alone. We all know changing sleep patterns really mess you up, perhaps that's the correlation with these occupations. 

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I wonder whether today's minute's silence will be construed by anyone as hypocrisy or virtue signalling.

Seems to be several months premature and why not have a proper silence for everyone when cases eventually decline. 

 Tom Valentine 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

I think the timing is strange but have no problems with the gesture (bit like the clap, really )

 Stichtplate 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

> Of course frequency of potential exposure 'may' increase the risk. Hence why the r4 programme referenced bus drivers, they have a lot more passengers than an ambulance! 

You ask me to keep this sensible then compare the exposure of paramedics with that of bus drivers? Are you for real? It's not just frequency of exposure, it's proximity, procedures performed and likelihood of exposure to actual infection rather than exposure to people. Bus drivers aren't sent specifically to pick up CV19 patients and I don't think they're required to peer down their passengers throats with a laryngoscope.

> I'd argue the r4 programme doesn't publish dodgy data.

and I'd argue that all the CV19 data is dodgy.

> Maybe it's too early for us or the programme to drawn conclusions. Maybe underlying health and general fitness, obesity, genetics, strain of shifts on the immune system etc. Is a bigger factor than occupation alone. We all know changing sleep patterns really mess you up, perhaps that's the correlation with these occupations. 

You keep ignoring that 4 in 26,000 figure. That isn't speculative and it's a 3 times the working age death rate quoted by R4.

Post edited at 08:47
Rigid Raider 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Now the BBC is announcing that we are going to hold a minute's silence for NHS staff who have died of CV. What about if HMG also stages a humiliating apology for having reacted too late, as well as for everything else, real or imagined, they have or haven't done in their term of office?  

I'll stick with the Armistice thing once a year, if that's okay.

1
 Stichtplate 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> Now the BBC is announcing that we are going to hold a minute's silence for NHS staff who have died of CV.

I'd rather they waited till this is done and dusted and then marked the passing of everyone who dies, no matter what their occupation.

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Ridge:

>You're right, we shouldn't view people as all being a single mass, even if some have views we find objectionable.

no. You shouldn’t make assumptions on people’s views if you don’t know them and haven’t spoken to them, just because they voted differently to you and have a better understanding of the modern world and how that affects the way the modern NHS functions, or doesn’t. ‘Objectional’ is an emotional term which has no place when you’re trying to find ways of keeping the NHS operating in the 21st century, nearly 100 years after it was conceived. 
 

It’s like the coal miners and print workers all blaming Maggie for shutting down the mines and newspaper print works. 

4
 Trangia 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Some of the most enthusiastic clappers seem to be Johnson and his cronies, the very people who have failed to act over the years when warned that the NHS was in dire straits, underfunded and understaffed, failed to listen to scientists who warned that sooner of later a pandemic like this would hit the world and that the country should be preparing for it and instead carried on with damaging austerity and a complete obsession with Brexit over and above anything else. 

No wonder Politicians are clapping and toadying to the public mood, it deflects attention away from their terrible history of failings. when it comes to the NHS

1
 Mr Lopez 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

The numbers are available. UK covid deaths on people under 65 gives a 0.0048 fatality rate. NHS/social care rates comes out at 0.0066

There may be arguments about under-reporting, but there can also be arguments that those working on the NHS had, to their knowledge, no pre-existing conditions as it seems those were understandably sent home, so the death rate in those with unknown pre-existing woud be considerably higher in NHS and social care workers.

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

> You ask me to keep this sensible then compare the exposure of paramedics with that of bus drivers? Are you for real? It's not just frequency of exposure, it's proximity, procedures performed and likelihood of exposure to actual infection rather than exposure to people. Bus drivers aren't sent specifically to pick up CV19 patients and I don't think they're required to peer down their passengers throats with a laryngoscope.

Yes. But it's a question of volume. Number of bus passengers, shared air inside a vehicle for duration of shift etc. On average how many folk are intubated per shift? I'm in now way belittling the work, doubting the risk etc. I was just quoting the programme. Stats have obviously changed since, but correlation isn't causation. 

Plus the programme didn't separate out paramedics, it looked at all the nhs workers. You've drawn out a subset of them, but applied the same ratio which obviously isn't correct. 

This could mean that some sectors of healthcare have had near zero deaths and it is the more exposed staff pushing the average up(in which case you would be correct about paramedics). Which would seem logical, some hospital departments have less footfall and have probably never been disinfected so much. 

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Wow. That’s high. That’s 48/10,000 vs 6/10,000 for flu or 8x higher than flu. Extrapolate that to 60m of us we’re looking at 288,000 under 65s. Are you sure that’s correct?

I’m not doubting you, just that’s close to what they were seeing in China 0.5% and I’ve not seen anything since March. 

Post edited at 10:59
 Mr Lopez 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Pretty sure. Added up all ONS published Covid deaths of under 65's which comes at 2,595, and then calculated the percentge out of the 2019 ONS published figures for UK population under 65, which comes at 54,269,993

Edit: This dataset for population https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fpeoplepopulationandcommunity%2fpopulatio...

And this one for Covid deaths (Covid tab) https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fpeoplepopulationandcommunity%2fbirthsdea...

Post edited at 11:05
 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to summo:

There is still traction amongst getting an infectious dose. Just being exposed to someone with CV doesn’t mean you’ll get it. You need a decent amount of virus. Quite how much that is, is unknown. 
 

4 people in my wife’s office have it. They’re not particularly ill. It’s an NHS facility which does see some patients but they’re kept away from them in the main. So it’s more likely one has caught it in the community and bought it in and given it to the others. 

 summo 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> 4 people in my wife’s office have it. They’re not particularly ill. It’s an NHS facility which does see some patients but they’re kept away from them in the main. So it’s more likely one has caught it in the community and bought it in and given it to the others. 

More unknowns than knowns. Supermarkets, cash points, petrol pumps... covid19 won't care if you are a key worker or not it will infect you just as easily there as any furloughed worker. 

It's the little things you never think of. Where we are all the car park pay machines were turned off 2 months ago and covered up. Council loses income but it doesn't have thousands of users all pushing the same few buttons. 

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Ok. The problem you have there with your calculations is that the entire population hasn’t been exposed to COVID 19. But I suppose neither has the entire NHS. So the 0.0048 is wrong as absolute risk. But a fair comparison of how many have died. 
 

The estimates I heard this morning were that only 3m people have had it so far. If 20k people have died that’s 6/10000 or 0.6%. Which is all ages and all underlying conditions. It does extrapolate to 400,000 deaths though. 
 

The figures just don’t seem to make much sense to me at the moment though. Maybe because of the way everything is lumped together. 0.48% to 0.6%, doesn’t seem to be as big a difference when they’ve been taking about it mainly affecting older people. Can you do the sums for each 10 year group? I’m on the phone. 

 krikoman 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> The numbers are available. UK covid deaths on people under 65 gives a 0.0048 fatality rate. NHS/social care rates comes out at 0.0066

> There may be arguments about under-reporting, but there can also be arguments that those working on the NHS had, to their knowledge, no pre-existing conditions as it seems those were understandably sent home, so the death rate in those with unknown pre-existing woud be considerably higher in NHS and social care workers.


But the clap has evolved to cover ALL key workers, so I'm clapping for the binmen and the care home workers, does that make it better?

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

My wife and I appear to be clapping ourselves. I don’t know whether she voted conservative though. 

 krikoman 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> My wife and I appear to be clapping ourselves. I don’t know whether she voted conservative though. 


If it makes either of you a little happier, then why not?

 Mr Lopez 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Uh? The whole point about NHS workers being at increased risk is that they have higher chances of getting exposed. Higher chances of getting exposed = higher infection rate = higher fatalities.

If you compare the chances of dying from falling down a cliff between mountaineers and golfers you look at mountaineer population and mountaineers deaths from falling down cliffs on one hand, and golfer population and golfers deaths falling down cliffs in the other. Is not possible to argue numbers are flawed because most golfers never come close to a cliff, the fact golfers don't go to cliff edges is the reason they have lower chances of falling down a cliff.

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

I’m just saying they don’t seem to be statistically much higher. You’re looking at 7 people per 10,000 in the NHS vs 5 in the general population.

That may look like a 40% higher risk, but only if you do newspaper statistics. 
 

Instead of looking at the whole population you need to look at key worker population and people who can’t work from home. There’s millions of people not leaving their homes. 
 

Post edited at 12:33
 gavmac 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

Completely agree.

My mum is out clapping every Thursday. She lives on her own and appreciates the sense of community it brings. Good for her and I'm not going to tell her otherwise.

But, I don't clap. I don't particularly like the narrative around measuring the employment worth of folk. We clap for the NHS... but what about care workers, okay lets clap for them... but what about the delivery drivers and supermarket staff, okay lets clap for ALL frontline staff (I hate that word by the way). And so it goes on.

But, what about the workers grunging away in the house trying to do their job with the added strain of home schooling etc or a PhD student who wonder if their funding is about to disappear or the freelancer who has seen their industry decimated and wonders what the world will even look like post Covid. 

So I'm going to give you ALL a wee clap right now for just surviving and trying to adjust to whatever the hell life is throwing at you.

 muppetfilter 28 Apr 2020
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Having just watched Panorama from Last night I don't want to clap I want to punch Johnson and Hancock.

2
 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to muppetfilter:

A lot is being made of gloves bring counted singly and not as a pair. 

You start to wonder if anyone has ever seen a pair of surgical gloves. 😂

I haven’t, they come in boxes of 100. 

 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to gavmac:

I suspect they’re all 1st world problems when you’re face to face with dying people everyday. 

1
 krikoman 28 Apr 2020
In reply to gavmac:

> But, I don't clap. I don't particularly like the narrative around measuring the employment worth of folk. We clap for the NHS... but what about care workers, okay lets clap for them... but what about the delivery drivers and supermarket staff, okay lets clap for ALL frontline staff (I hate that word by the way). And so it goes on.

The clap is for all key workers, you can clap for who you want, too. It originally started out as NHS staff, but it was broadened to encompass all key workers.

Does that help you?

Why do you have to include everyone who you think is worthy before appreciating any of the people working to keep us safe?

1
 gavmac 28 Apr 2020
In reply to krikoman:

No not really. I don't think the NHS or otherwise need a clap (or want one, judging by my friends and family in the NHS). I just don't like or think it helpful to obsess with these terms key workers or frontline. 

Again, if people want to clap - that's all fine. I personally find it one of these odd little British quirks which quickly becomes quite jingoistic. 

On a side note. I watched with absolute awe and appreciation the way the NHS cared for my dad in the final months of his life, before he passed away in January. Please don't mistake my apathy towards the clap as a lack of appreciation for the NHS. I will show my support by fighting in any way that I can, any party or government that tries to erode what we have. On that point, I think we agree.

1
 DancingOnRock 28 Apr 2020
In reply to gavmac:

>Again, if people want to clap - that's all fine. I personally find it one of these odd little British quirks which quickly becomes quite jingoistic.

It originated in the Netherlands. 

Post edited at 21:23
 gavmac 28 Apr 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Fair point. 

 krikoman 28 Apr 2020
In reply to gavmac:

> No not really. I don't think the NHS or otherwise need a clap (or want one, judging by my friends and family in the NHS). I just don't like or think it helpful to obsess with these terms key workers or frontline. 

Well you could just call them workers, as in anyone who's making my life easier at the moment. There's no need to obsess about any particular group.

> Again, if people want to clap - that's all fine. I personally find it one of these odd little British quirks which quickly becomes quite jingoistic. 

I agree it's personal choice, but it's not a particularly British thing, probably the opposite to be honest, stiff upper lip and all thst shite. I was a little self conscious myself at first. Also, it started in Holland I think, but has spread throughout the world, so I don't see how you get to jingoistic from that.

> On a side note. I watched with absolute awe and appreciation the way the NHS cared for my dad in the final months of his life, before he passed away in January. Please don't mistake my apathy towards the clap as a lack of appreciation for the NHS. I will show my support by fighting in any way that I can, any party or government that tries to erode what we have. On that point, I think we agree.

We do and bravo.

Sorry about your dad.

Post edited at 22:24

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...