UKC

The new rules in a nutshell

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 Oceanrower 10 May 2020

I'm pleased to announce that Boris has confirmed we are now allowed to do exactly what we were allowed to do before.

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 Jon Stewart 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> I'm pleased to announce that Boris has confirmed we are now allowed to do exactly what we were allowed to do before.

With a change of emphasis. 

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 pec 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

Well I'll await the detailed guidance to be issued tomorrow but on the basis of what he said some of us will be able to resume climbing next week

Which is not what we were allowed to do before. Oh yes, and some people will be going back to work.

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Gone for good 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

That's pretty much what it sounded like to me. I didn't hear anything new other than what might happen if the R rate kept reducing. 

OP Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to pec:

Climbing was never against the law.

Going to work hasn't changed. If you can work tomorrow, you could have worked yesterday.

 pec 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Climbing was never against the law.

It was against the guidance and you could have been fined for it. In some circumstances that will not be the case next week (pending the detailed guidance due out tomorrow).

Regarding the work, today's announcement was clearly a 'general direction of travel' affair. Again, the guidance will be studied by buisnesses and we can expect some return to work in the near future.

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OP Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to pec:

It was against the BMC guidance. As far as I know, the BMC do not make law. If you were obeying the other criteria (same household etc.) then it wasn't illegal. Same as it won't be tomorrow/Wednesday/whenever they get enough bullshit together...

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 pec 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> It was against the BMC guidance. As far as I know, the BMC do not make law.

People were being fined for things such as being too far from home without 'good reason' and engaging in exercise other than running, walking or cycling. Even where they weren't being fined they were being turned back by police.

Pending the details, some people will be allowed to climb from Wednesday without fear of police interferance. In fact anyone will be able to boulder, scramble of hill walk on their own.

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 MG 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

It was considered "unreasonable" distance wise by consensus, which is the basis for the law. Presumably what is reasonable has changed by fiat by Boris now. 

OP Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to pec:

This might seem like pedantry (and it's not having a go at you!) but it's not. The details matter.

NOBODY has been fined for travelling too far from home. Quite a few have had a FPN* but this is NOT a fine. The police (contrary to the police and pretty much every media outlets reporting) do not have the powers to issue a fine. Only the courts can do that.

A Fixed Penalty Notice is actually a way of AVOIDING a fine. You are well within your rights to refuse it and, if you do, you MAY go to court.

*Almost all, I expect, will not be pursued if it goes to the CPS.

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 krikoman 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

My local county FB page, thinks it's business as usual!!

I have no idea where this has come from, but there's a massive argument going on about how are people going to work tomorrow, which buses are running and are the car parks still free!!

Scary shit.

 rogerwebb 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> This might seem like pedantry (and it's not having a go at you!) but it's not. The details matter.

> NOBODY has been fined for travelling too far from home. Quite a few have had a FPN* but this is NOT a fine. The police (contrary to the police and pretty much every media outlets reporting) do not have the powers to issue a fine. Only the courts can do that.

In the interests of pedantry you are incorrect. From a case I did last month;

'On xx April at xxxxxxxxxx you XXXXXXXXXXXX did contravene regulation 5 of the after-mentioned Regulations in that you did not stay in the place you were living; CONTRARY to Regulation 8(1) of the Health Protection (Coronavirus)(Restrictions)(Scotland) Regulations 2020

There are a number trundling through the system. Generally speaking though to reach court you do have to dig the hole you are in a bit deeper by not simply accepting the fixed penalty.

Post edited at 21:23
OP Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to rogerwebb:

Thank you. I stand corrected. I take it you are a lawyer then. Can I have almost nobody? And can you just confirm for me that a FPN isn't actually, contrary to popular belief, a fine.

 rogerwebb 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Thank you. I stand corrected. I take it you are a lawyer then. Can I have almost nobody? And can you just confirm for me that a FPN isn't actually, contrary to popular belief, a fine.


You can have almost nobody ,with the caveat that things may be different in other jurisdictions. In any event you do have to try quite hard to get to court (top tip don't try and argue that you need to go shopping 60 miles from home).

An FPN is not a fine and it is usually a good idea just to take it on the chin (see above).

 pec 10 May 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

> This might seem like pedantry (and it's not having a go at you!) but it's not. The details matter.

Bl**dy hell, I've hit a raw nerve. Yes it's pedantry and frankly the details don't matter that much unless you get some perverse delight from dancing on the head of a pin.

Technically climbing was never illegal but if I'd rocked up to Langdale with a sack full of climbing gear and some local busy body rang the dibble there's a chance I'd have to fork out £30. Whether it's technically a fine or not doesn't much matter, it's still £30 out of my pocket and frankly I can't be arsed pursuing it through the courts only to be told I was too far from home/my journey wasn't essential etc etc and then have to pay £60 for my troubles. At the very least I risked an embarassing encounter with a bobby and a wasted journey.

As of Wednesday this won't be the case and I'm very pleased about it. I'm sorry if you don't have a household member to climb with but don't take it out on me. At least you can go bouldering, scrambling or just go for a walk in the mountains without fear of hassle.

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OP Oceanrower 10 May 2020
In reply to pec:

Not a nerve at all. Just my mini OCD. I'm fed up with the papers saying the police have issued x number of fines when they haven't.

I'm just trying to educate the world one person at a time... 😀😀😀

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In reply to rogerwebb:

Thanks for you helpful posts, but I found it rather surprising that you chose 'take it on the chin' as metaphor, which expression has surely now been discredited for all time. I'm sure it'll go down in our history books like 'Peace for our time'.

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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Thanks for you helpful posts, but I found it rather surprising that you chose 'take it on the chin' as metaphor, which expression has surely now been discredited for all time.

Along with 'caught it straight off the bat.'

 MargieB 11 May 2020
In reply to pec:

How do  hot spots eg Snowdonia, which had a crowding issue before because people are sort of unimaginative and choose to go to well known spots, avoid crowding again??

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 pec 11 May 2020
In reply to MargieB:

> How do  hot spots eg Snowdonia, which had a crowding issue before because people are sort of unimaginative and choose to go to well known spots, avoid crowding again??


Snowdonia isn't overcrowded (and it's still off limits anyway being in Wales), just some parts of it. Shortly before lockdown I walked up Arenig Fach on a nice sunny day and didn't see a single other person all day. 15 miles away the Pass and Ogwen were apparently rammed.

As to the general point of honeypots I think local councils may have to keep car parks closed for a while and publicise that fact to deter people. If people then park illegally they can be fined in the usual way. I'm sure North Wales police will revel in that!

The absence of campsites and B&B's etc will also limit numbers.

Personally I'll be acting responsibly by not visiting any honeypots for a while until the initial surge has calmed down and would encourage others to do likewise. That said I'm always banging on about how unimaginative climbers many climbers are but the hordes still keep going to Stanage. Anyone turning up there this weekend is asking for whatever trouble they get.

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 MargieB 11 May 2020
In reply to pec:

So police england and local councils given 48 hours to get that together.Unless Boris has informed them last week??? I bet they love him, if he didn't, especially in the Lake District

You know, I really don't want a 2nd spike in England. I have a hospitality business and I was banking on a finale to a summer of the UK holidaying within the UK because we are assured of our low own transmission  whilst most will probably not travel internationally. I can see that happening if it is properly handled.

Post edited at 18:22
 MargieB 12 May 2020
In reply to pec:

Logic would dictate that any greater freedom of travel other than immediate local area must be predicated with an embedded Test Track and trace system. "Who" advised it and we made a mistake before. To follow an hot spot through deaths [rather than symptoms}  leaves a 2/3 week lag in which a chain of infection can have really spider webbed.

The app is only now in Isle of wight . 

Surely logic would dictate that the TTT system be fully embedded in society before we unlock  any movement to any degree. 

Post edited at 09:32

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