UKC

Time to cull cats?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Le Sapeur 19 Sep 2019

Two stories I have read today.

1. Bird populations in US and Canada down 3bn in 50 years

2. Cats that live in the wild or indoor pets allowed to roam outdoors kill from 1.4 billion to as many as 3.7 billion birds in the continental U.S. each year.

Solution seems simple.

34
 Stichtplate 19 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Apparently humans have wiped out 60% of animal populations since 1960 ....and you think the big problem is too many cats?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-anim...

Post edited at 23:17
5
Le Sapeur 19 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Apparently humans have wiped out 60% of animal populations since 1960 ....and you think the big problem is too many cats?

Steady on there. When did I say 'big problem" and did I post in the pub forum a light hearted cat culling post. Reel it back in a bit.

28
 Timmd 19 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Apparently humans have wiped out 60% of animal populations since 1960 ....and you think the big problem is too many cats?

Isn't this what is known as 'whataboutery' ?

7
 Stichtplate 19 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Steady on there. When did I say 'big problem" and did I post in the pub forum a light hearted cat culling post. Reel it back in a bit.

 Firstly, I'm a bit bemused that you think the use of the phrase 'big problem' indicates I've somehow gone off the deep end?

Secondly, "Light hearted cat culling post" ???

1
 Stichtplate 19 Sep 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> Isn't this what is known as 'whataboutery' ?

Dunno. If someone started a thread bemoaning the atmospheric pollution caused by petrol lawnmowers, I think it'd be fair enough to point out that 100,000 articulated lorries on our roads might be a little more problematic.

Edit: thank God no one's picked up on the typo in my initial post.

Post edited at 00:01
3
 wynaptomos 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Steady on there. When did I say 'big problem" and did I post in the pub forum a light hearted cat culling post. Reel it back in a bit.

what on earth is light-hearted about culling animals?

1
 birdie num num 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Solution seems simple.

The trouble with mass murder of cats is... you have to gas them nine times. 

2
 Timmd 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Dunno. If someone started a thread bemoaning the atmospheric pollution caused by petrol lawnmowers, I think it'd be fair enough to point out that 100,000 articulated lorries on our roads might be a little more problematic.

> Edit: thank God no one's picked up on the typo in my initial post.

I'm vaguely wondering if the importation of none native species (cats in the US) is included in the 60% of all animal species,  killing cats in some kind of painless way could be a way to address what you mentioned. Argh, snookered. (perhaps)  

Post edited at 01:36
1
 felt 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

But cats are indirectly helping with our insect shortage.

Ban glass skyscrapers, I say.

1
 summo 20 Sep 2019
In reply to birdie num num:

> The trouble with mass murder of cats is... you have to gas them nine times. 

That will explain why it's one of the longest running Broadway shows. 

Moley 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Apparently humans have wiped out 60% of animal populations since 1960 ....and you think the big problem is too many cats?

Try suggesting to the Guardian that it is time to cull humans, that would have their readership checking on their breakfast muesli.

4
 Tobes 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Moley:

> Try suggesting to the Guardian that it is time to cull humans, that would have their readership checking on their breakfast muesli.

To see where the smashed avocado is I presume? Mwha 

1
 Sredni Vashtar 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

I culled a cat once by accident, shot its face clean off. The only way i could have done that is if the cat was aiming at me but i was quicker. sobering thought.

6
 Siward 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

The RSPB aren't convinced that cats make much difference.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-for-wildlife/an...

If I think back to my distant youth there were huge flocks of starlings roosting in every big city around dusk. All gone now, and I don't think cats are responsible.

1
Moley 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Siward:

Think we have had this discussion on here many times before, quoting rspb. Nothing new. 

Off thread, some muppet has let two racoon dogs escape near us, last couple of days. I think a contract is out on them!

1
cb294 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Siward:

This RSPB piece simply reflects its dependence on donors.

Clearly, industrial scale agriculture and habitat destruction, not only here but also on migration routes and wintering grounds, are more significant. Nevertheless, cats are responsible for millions of bird deaths every year and are clearly the reason for the disappearance of slow worms and lizards from most villages. While I would prefer culling, at the very least cats should not be allowed to roam (which is antisocial behaviour in parts of the owners anyway).

CB

11
 toad 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Siward:

There have been some spectacular murmuration around Nottingham these last few years. 

 Siward 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

Cats will roam, their owners will let them. That's simply the nature of human/pet behaviour. The solution to tipping the balance between nature and human impact has been eloquently given at the top of the thread.

6
 Siward 20 Sep 2019
In reply to toad:

That's good to hear. In the city centre or beyond?

I'm thinking in particular of Birmingham city centre in the late 70s- thousands upon thousands of starlings congregating around dusk circulating and roosting on every available ledge along Corporation Street. Of course many of those ledges are now covered in spikes to deter them but the fact is they have disappeared.

 Duncan Bourne 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

Quick question: How come cats are only now decimating bird populations when they have been getting on perfectly fine with other species over the, God knows how many, centuries they have been roaming free and breeding without being neutered?

It kind of reminds of of the fishing industry a while back blaming seals for eating all the fish

Post edited at 08:43
3
cb294 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

They never have, that is simply a myth. Easily proved by looking at any place where cats have been introduced within the last few hundred years. No need to limit yourself to island ecosystems where many species have evolved in the absence of predators, just look at, say, Australia, where there always were land predators. The effect of feral cats is an ecological armageddon. The only solution to roaming cats is eradication. 

CB

2
 graeme jackson 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

if you'd suggested culling dogs I'd have gone along with it. Cats though?  you sick bastard.

Anyway, I have a cat, (sounds like the start of an AA speech dunnit?) who spends most of his time roaming the garden and woods around my house. I also have 3 bird feeding stations that I have to fill every 2 days just now. (nuts, sunflower seeds and fat balls on each).

I'm attracting flocks of tits, - great, blue, coal and long tailed - chaffinch, goldfinch, bullfinch, sparrows, starlings, siskins ,various wagtails, collard doves, magpies, crows and the occasional woodpecker.  I don't think the cat (or the other 4 in the area) has had any effect on the small bird population round here.

6
 galpinos 20 Sep 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

We've just moved house and the fact we are now surrounded by trees, despite still being in a city and only half a mile from where we were, has meant that the garden is full of birds. We've obviously got the city standard of crows, pigeons and magpies but also robins, blue and coal tits, goldfinch, starlings and a couple of jays. There might be more but my identification skills are pretty poor.

Post edited at 09:35
Rigid Raider 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

The last time I was in Cyprus my agent proudly showed me photos of the rows of birds laid out on the ground that he and his pals had shot while "hunting". I think he was testing my reaction. 

In north Africa people string up fine nets for miles across migration routes and eat the birds they catch. I'd suggest that mass slaughter of migrating birds in these ways is doing much more harm than a few pussy cats. 

3
 Stichtplate 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> The last time I was in Cyprus my agent proudly showed me photos of the rows of birds laid out on the ground that he and his pals had shot while "hunting". I think he was testing my reaction. 

> In north Africa people string up fine nets for miles across migration routes and eat the birds they catch. I'd suggest that mass slaughter of migrating birds in these ways is doing much more harm than a few pussy cats. 

In 2016 alone, 800,000 migrating birds were illegally poached on Cyrprus's British sovereign base areas (a tiny portion of the island). The birds are caught in nets or on glued sticks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/28/ministry-defence-campaign-sto...

The British military's efforts to crack down on the practice resulted in a grenade attack on a base in 2017.

cb294 20 Sep 2019
In reply to plyometrics:

As above, that is scientifically debunked propaganda by an organization desperate for funding. 

CB

2
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Whatever would the Egyptians think ?

Nempnett Thrubwell 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Moley:

> Try suggesting to the Guardian that it is time to cull humans, that would have their readership checking on their breakfast muesli.


I'm sure they've had an editorial on dignitas.

 graeme jackson 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

> As above, that is scientifically debunked propaganda by an organization desperate for funding. 

> CB


Can you provide links to these scientific debunkings please? 

1
 Duncan Bourne 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

I will agree that introducing predators into an eco system where they didn't exist before is detrimental.

However cats have been in this country for millenia so what has changed?

3
MarkJH 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

> As above, that is scientifically debunked propaganda by an organization desperate for funding. 

I would be interested to see your evidence.  From what I can see, there is very little (next to no) literature that actually looks at ecological effects from cat predation.  Counting the number of predated birds is relatively easy, but it is a very big step to move from that to a demonstration of population level effects.

1
mick taylor 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

Even though I'm a huge fan of the RSPB, I think you make a valid point. I'm sure I heard Chris Packham mention something about collectively, gardens would constitute the biggest nature reserve in UK and are therefore very important - cat predation is a problem (few/no birders I know would disagree).

 jkarran 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> 1. Bird populations in US and Canada down 3bn in 50 years

> 2. Cats that live in the wild or indoor pets allowed to roam outdoors kill from 1.4 billion to as many as 3.7 billion birds in the continental U.S. each year.

> Solution seems simple.

Does it? How was that 3.7Bn figure arrived at? What do other predators account for? What do diseases account for? What does food chain failure through pesticide use account for? What does weather/climate account for? What does habitat degradation and loss account for? What does traffic account for? What does light pollution account for? What does glazing account for?

In short: is 3.7Bn killed by cats reliable and is it significant? The fact it looks superficially similar to the headline loss figure does not imply one has caused the other.

I see nothing simple in culling domestic cats nor any suggestion it will reverse or halt he declining bird population trend. 

jk

2
 RX-78 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

O am guessing that the cat population has risen along side the increase in the human population so it is a matter of numbers/density.

cb294 20 Sep 2019
In reply to MarkJH:

I provided a lengthy list on a previous thread that I cannot find. Probably it was in the pub.

Just a couple of papers, before I need to do some actual work: 

First, an estimate of cat induced deaths in the US:

Loss et al., The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United States, Nature Communications 4, Article number: 1396 (2013)

and something pertinent to the cat lovers' attitudes on this thread

McDonald, J.L. et al. 2015. Reconciling actual and perceived rates of predation by domestic cats. Ecology and Evolution doi: 10.1002/ece3.1553.

CB

1
 Duncan Bourne 20 Sep 2019
In reply to RX-78:

Interestingly it is driven by men

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39440934

As ever the real problem is human driven

Post edited at 11:18
 Stichtplate 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

I can't find any evidence suggesting domestic cat predation has led to any extinctions in the UK. The list of British species that have disappeared since humans settled these islands is pretty long though. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinct_animals_of_the_British_Isles

Also worth noting the large number of predatory mammal species that have been expunged from UK habitats. Could it not be the case that domestic cats, while admittedly at vastly inflated numbers, might be filling some pretty sizeable vacant ecological niches?

Edit: Personally speaking, as an alternative to culling, I'd like to see a mass program of capturing and neutering, along with the message that adoption is the environmentally acceptable option.

(thinking about it, this approach might also solve the lesser problem presented by cats)

Post edited at 11:36
2
 toad 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Siward:

Suburban, really. I think they are encouraged for a variety of reasons, but there are some new biggish reedbeds at Attenborough ( nature reserve in Notts. Suburb) that have attracted good numbers. As you’ve alluded to, it’s suitability of habitat as well as numbers of birds. In the 80s they used to congregate around the big Trent power stations, because of the heat islands, but we aren’t burning coal in the same way anymore

 toad 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Moley:

> Try suggesting to the Guardian that it is time to cull humans, that would have their readership checking on their breakfast muesli.

If you read some of the more evangelical environmental articles, you might be surprised

MarkJH 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

> I provided a lengthy list on a previous thread that I cannot find. Probably it was in the pub.

> Just a couple of papers, before I need to do some actual work: 

Yes, but those articles illustrate the point I was making.  Both of them (and I think the list that you previously gave) only look at predation rate.  Depending on various population parameters, predation rate (particularly where the predator population is not coupled to the prey population) may not have any effect on population size.  i.e. it is not just that it doesn't have a significant effect; it may have no effect whatever.

Post edited at 12:21
1
 jimtitt 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Mice and rats will back this plan

cb294 20 Sep 2019
In reply to MarkJH:

The only experimental way to check this would be to cull all cats in an isolatable area that is nevertheless sufficiently large to get meaningful data, say, the entire island of Ireland, wait for a few years, and see whether bird populations recover. Can't be done, obviously, so the consequence must be to act as if there were an effect. Standard precautionary approach (which by the way is at the heart of EU/US trade conflicts).

The reciprocal experiment, introducing cats into an area where there previously were none and see what happens has been done, with unambiguous results. Indeed, for islands and even large regions of Australia, eradication using poison bait worked wonders.

CB

2
 DerwentDiluted 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Apparently humans have wiped out 60% of animal populations since 1960 ....and you think the big problem is too many cats?

Can I suggest culling batty old ladies? Reduction in human population and cat habitat destruction. Win win.

Post edited at 12:49
Moley 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Interestingly it is driven by men

> As ever the real problem is human driven

You are right there, humans keep pet cats. Why??

MarkJH 20 Sep 2019
In reply to cb294:

> The only experimental way to check this would be to cull all cats in an isolatable area that is nevertheless sufficiently large to get meaningful data, say, the entire island of Ireland, wait for a few years, and see whether bird populations recover. Can't be done, obviously, so the consequence must be to act as if there were an effect. Standard precautionary approach (which by the way is at the heart of EU/US trade conflicts).

OK, but you claimed that the RSPB statement that there was: "...no clear scientific evidence that such mortality is causing [UK] bird populations to decline..." was "scientifically debunked propaganda".  Now you are claiming that the statement cannot even be tested!

Personally, I think that the question would be no harder to address experimentally than any other study of a natural system for which you cannot perform controlled experiments (effects of pesticides on pollinators for example).  Ecologists are pretty good at testing hypotheses without having to perform large-scale interventions and are also pretty good at appreciating the limitations.

 The New NickB 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

I witnessed the brutal murder of a bird in my garden this morning, it wasn’t our cat who was sat watching through the window like me. It was a Sparrowhawk. We have had a Peregrine in the garden as well.

Beautiful creatures and far better killers than our cat.

Le Sapeur 20 Sep 2019
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Careful there, the sense of humour police will issue you a ticket.

 Michael Hood 20 Sep 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

Peregrine in the garden - lucky you

We have a couple of cats, and they don't predate that much, but obviously more in the spring when there are young birds around, and parent birds that get sloppy because of the pressure to feed their young.

The question about cat predation should really be, are cats killing parts of the population that would otherwise survive (to the next year?).

 toad 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

 

> The question about cat predation should really be, are cats killing parts of the population that would otherwise survive (to the next year?).

Probably. It's sufficiently important that new residential developments in areas of high conservation value/ ground nesting birds are being designed with cat containment/ exclusion in mind (ie preventing cats from developments getting out of the estate and into the surrounding countryside through moats, fencing etc)

 The New NickB 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Michael Hood:

I know having one in the garden is pretty rare as the environment generally suit them like it  suits a Sparrowhawk. So very lucky I think, despite than being much more common than 30 years ago. There is a well established breeding pair about a mile away.

Post edited at 16:24
1
 NathanP 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

If cats were a major cause in reduction in bird populations, you'd expect to see a drop in populations of small birds that cats come into contact with whilst larger birds that are too big for a cat and species that just don't come into gardens would be relatively OK.

That doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. 

For example: Great Tits, Long Tailed Tits and Goldfinches (all frequent gardens and are a handy snack size for a cat) are hugely up in numbers. Grey Partridge, Kestrels, Cuckoos and Arctic Skuas are down. 

https://www.rspb.org.uk/globalassets/downloads/documents/conservation-scien...

Of course this is an RSPB publication which we now know is just a disinformation front for the Cat's Protection League...

2
 Pefa 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

1)Many cat owners determinedly want their pussies to be out there and free to pounce on any poor wildlife that comes near them. 

2)Conservationists and others who want to help dwindling wildlife numbers see all the unnecessary and wasteful carnage done by some peoples free-roaming cats and think 'let's stop this' and help the victims as it is one factor of a few others that people can change that will make a difference.

Is keeping your cat indoors such a big hassle when it can help other wildlife so much and let's face it your cat doesn't need to kill its got a bowl of food everyday. 

7
 jimtitt 20 Sep 2019
In reply to NathanP:

> If cats were a major cause in reduction in bird populations, you'd expect to see a drop in populations of small birds that cats come into contact with whilst larger birds that are too big for a cat and species that just don't come into gardens would be relatively OK.

> That doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. 

> For example: Great Tits, Long Tailed Tits and Goldfinches (all frequent gardens and are a handy snack size for a cat) are hugely up in numbers. Grey Partridge, Kestrels, Cuckoos and Arctic Skuas are down. 

> Of course this is an RSPB publication which we now know is just a disinformation front for the Cat's Protection League...


I had a pair of Kestrels breed in my roof this year and watching my cat ( and dogs)  when the chicks left the nest was pure entertainment. Those fluffy things hopping around (they can't fly for few days) are a match for any cat, they just puff themselves up and look f#cking mean and the cat backs off trying to  look as if it wasn't really interested.

From the "gifts" brought in I'd guess it't 20 mice for each bird.

 Jim Hamilton 20 Sep 2019
In reply to NathanP:

> If cats were a major cause in reduction in bird populations, you'd expect to see a drop in populations of small birds that cats come into contact with whilst larger birds that are too big for a cat and species that just don't come into gardens would be relatively OK.

Your link suggests an increase in small garden birds likely due to increasingly milder winters?  and presumably the larger birds you mention will have suffered through habitat loss etc.

 Andy Say 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> 1. Bird populations in US and Canada down 3bn in 50 years

And you think that's just down to cats?  Not deforestation, pesticides blah blah..

> 2. Cats that live in the wild or indoor pets allowed to roam outdoors kill from 1.4 billion to as many as 3.7 billion birds in the continental U.S. each year.

Ummmm. You really sure about that?

But why stop at cats? Pet dogs consume so much food that could be used to ease human starvation.

 Stichtplate 20 Sep 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> From the "gifts" brought in I'd guess it't 20 mice for each bird.

Our current cat is incapable of catching anything, but from  previous moggies that would hunt sporadically (and then season dependent) I'd guess about 7 mice or rats per bird, but perhaps bird kills were more obvious due to feathers being spread everywhere? I've also seen studies indicating feral cats rodent to bird ratio is 3:1. Whatever, if cats are having such a huge impact on bird populations and rodents make up the bulk of their prey, how come there's no corresponding impact mice and rat numbers?

Le Sapeur 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Andy Say:

> And you think that's just down to cats?  Not deforestation, pesticides blah blah..

Yes it's all down to cats. I really believe the world is going to hell in a handcart because of cats. Cats and nothing else are going to end the world. It's a catastrophy! 

> Ummmm. You really sure about that?

I haven't counted all of the birds killed by cats this year, so no. 

> But why stop at cats? Pet dogs consume so much food that could be used to ease human starvation.

Common misconception that there is not enough food in the world. There is, it's unevenly distributed.  

Dogs are edible.

1
 Webster 20 Sep 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

> I'm attracting flocks of tits,

alright, no need to boast man!

 Michael Hood 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Pefa:

> Is keeping your cat indoors such a big hassle when it can help other wildlife so much and let's face it your cat doesn't need to kill its got a bowl of food everyday. 

Yes, big hassle if they've grown up with access to outdoors and are used to being outside, no if you've had a house cat from day 1.

My cats do tend to eat any small birds and mice that they catch. Rats tend to be left lying around, magpies similarly although I've managed to get most of those free without significant injury (to the bird).

1
Moley 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Pefa:

> 1)Many cat owners determinedly want their pussies to be out there and free to pounce on any poor wildlife that comes near them. 

> 2)Conservationists and others who want to help dwindling wildlife numbers see all the unnecessary and wasteful carnage done by some peoples free-roaming cats and think 'let's stop this' and help the victims as it is one factor of a few others that people can change that will make a difference.

> Is keeping your cat indoors such a big hassle when it can help other wildlife so much and let's face it your cat doesn't need to kill its got a bowl of food everyday. 

Bl***y hell, I agree with you all the way, I best pour myself a large g and t and have a sit-down. What is the world coming to.

 Tom Valentine 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Pefa:

I would view keeping a cat indoors similarly to keeping a bird in a cage or a fish in a tank. 

2
 Cog 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

>  Whatever, if cats are having such a huge impact on bird populations and rodents make up the bulk of their prey, how come there's no corresponding impact mice and rat numbers?

Mice/cats breed quickly.

Moley 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I would view keeping a cat indoors similarly to keeping a bird in a cage or a fish in a tank. 

Where they belong if they are pets for the purpose of giving you pleasure. That includes cats.

I cannot see the point in keeping a cat, housing it, feeding it and paying for private health care if it spends much of it's life - not there with you. 

Where is the pleasure in knowing that your "pet" is wandering the neighborhood, being a nuisance to others and killing wildlife? Whilst you sit at home with nothing to pet?

I simply don't get it, happy to say that our tortoises don't have much impact (unless thrown at one) and Doris the quail is currently  scuttling about the living room, crapping everywhere and looking for spiders to chase.

Those are low impact pets.

4
 mack 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Andy Say:

> But why stop at cats? Pet dogs consume so much food that could be used to ease human starvation.

mmm pedigree chum and Kibble.

 jasonC abroad 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

There was a report on the R4 programme More Or Less about this subject but based on UK reports, I can't remember the exact outcome but the statistics are fairly dodgy and not really to be trusted, they were based on a small sample and extrapolated out to give huge numbers, that probably don't reflect reality.

In reply to Tobes:

I blame brexit,  bloody cats

In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Solution seems simple.

If they are killing a few billion birds they are probably also killing a few billion mice.  If you get rid of the cats you're going to have a lot more mice as well as a lot more birds.

 Timmd 20 Sep 2019
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> If they are killing a few billion birds they are probably also killing a few billion mice.  If you get rid of the cats you're going to have a lot more mice as well as a lot more birds.

In my childhood home there were mice in the garden and under the kitchen part of the house, and they never caused any problems by getting into the house, there weren't any ways to get in. I'm unimaginatively practical maybe. 

Post edited at 23:21
1
Lusk 20 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Do any of you cat cullers actually own cats?  Forget about reading your published studies ...
I've got two, and have had several others over the years, and I can assure you that they are not wholesalingly (?) slaughtering the local avian population.  The local tits and finches are way too fast for them to catch.

However, my proudest cat day was, my black tom killed two grey squirrels within an hour, good work boy!

3
 balmybaldwin 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Something has changed near me and I wonder if its partly due to last year's long dry summer. I live a mile from Thursley nature reserve in Surrey and often spend the day in there with my camera trying to get wildlife shots. It's known for butterflies, birdlife, dragonflies and most of all it has one of the UK's few populations of native lizards.

This year there have been more than a few times that I've been there for hours without seeing any bird life on the marsh ponds which are normally populated by at least a few ducks and coots, but last year and previous years there's always been flycatchers, buntings, dartford warblers etc around the reeds, merlins and kestrels in the air as well as all manner of waterfowl.

It's so bad this year my best pictures are of plants!

 Pefa 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> In my childhood home there were mice in the garden and under the kitchen part of the house, and they never caused any problems by getting into the house, there weren't any ways to get in. I'm unimaginatively practical maybe. 

❤️ No you are a gem. 

Post edited at 01:14
 Duncan Bourne 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Moley:

Any pet really. Dogs have a significant carbon footprint

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2017/08/02/whats-your-dogs-carbon-...

 Tringa 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

Interesting numbers. Do you have a link to the research?

Cats have been a part of human life for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

If we look at the UK, the decline in bird numbers is greatest in birds that probably do not come into contact with cats - 

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/how-you-can-help-birds/wh...

I like cats but I'm not loopy about them. They are efficient predators and will take anything they can get their claws and teeth into.

We had a semi-feral cat that adopted us and lived with us for about 7 years and was delightful. It took about a year before she would come into the house - I had never seen 'bouncing off the walls' before, but I did with her.

Did she catch birds? Yes, of course she did, seeing the last bit of a goldfinch going down wasn't pleasant. Did it have an impact on the numbers of birds in the garden? I don't know.

I admit there might be many more cats than there were 50 years ago but I don't know if they have a big effect on bird numbers.

Dave

BTW We now have a dog, which we much prefer, but anything he sees that is fox sized or smaller is a target.

 Tobes 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

‘Cats! Maybe cats operating in gangs.’ 

 nufkin 21 Sep 2019
In reply to Le Sapeur:

A number of Americans of my acquaintance who have cats do not let them outside. Cats are not an apex predator in many areas of the US

cb294 22 Sep 2019
In reply to Andy Say:

> Ummmm. You really sure about that?

Yes. The number coms from the Nat Comm paper I linked to above. Note that there is a corrigendum which gives slightly larger corridors of uncertainty (both directions), but the overall estimate remains the same.

CB


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...