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Tourism tax wales

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 Duncan Bourne 28 Apr 2022

Just curious how Wales would implement a tourism tax on visitors?

Would they stop you at the border and charge you entry? add 10p to every chip butty for non-residents? Extra levvy on hotels & B&B's? Seems like an ill thought out idea to me.

Saw it briefly on the news last night but didn't see any details

https://gov.wales/next-step-development-tourism-tax

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Removed User 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

An additional accommodation levy is  the obvious choice as it discriminates locals/tourists. I've seen this in other countries (can't remember which ones).

 RobAJones 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Extra levvy on hotels & B&B's?

and campsites is pretty common in other countries/areas?

 mrphilipoldham 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Removed User:

They do it in Chamomix for example, in return you get free access to the local train etc. Felt like a decent scheme and made use of it even when I arrived by car. Would I be happy to pay if there were nothing offered? Probably not. 

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 ExiledScot 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

It would be great idea if the money was spent on things that benefit visitors, but the sceptic in me thinks it will just shore up the rest of their economy and tourists are soft targets as they aren't usually voters in Wales.

Will be curious what the welsh who travel lots around wales think. 

10
 Toerag 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

It's pretty standard to do it on tourist accommodation on a per night basis.

OP Duncan Bourne 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Removed User:

I wonder how that would affect climbing huts?

 RobAJones 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Only has a quick read.

The levy would be proportionate by design, and powers to raise the levy would be discretionary for local authorities. This would enable decisions to be taken locally, according to the needs of our communities. The levy will apply to those paying to stay overnight within a local authority area

> Seems like an ill thought out idea to me.

Seems like they are allowing local authorities make a success/hash of the system.

Pretty sure the campsites in Saas Grund benefited from the local tax, as it meant you had free access to the cable cars last time I stopped there, not so if you dossed in a layby.

1
 Harry Jarvis 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

A tourist tax is levied on accommodation in Paris, on a sliding scale depending on the nature of the accommodation, from palaces to campsites and marinas. For campsites, the levy is less than 1 euro, depending on the facilities available. Frankly, it seems a very sensible way of raising revenue.

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Generally it's the norm to put it on accommodation (typically charging more for "premium" accommodation like 4* hotels and less for basic e.g. camping/bunkhouses), though if you wanted to "get" day visitors it can be done by increasing parking charges and letting the few arriving on foot/cycle/public transport get away with it.

A model I really quite like (common in Switzerland for one) is including unlimited use of local public transport in the charge, thus encouraging even those who arrive by car to leave it there and use public transport to get around instead.  This could go very well with the new improved Snowdon Sherpa network.

For places where a lot of the population is visitors, it's a good way of redressing the balance of needing to provide a high level of public services but not receiving as much Council Tax, so I'd say I'm in support of it.

Post edited at 11:33
 Dave Garnett 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I wonder how that would affect climbing huts?

That's a good point - not so much for the marginal extra cost of hut fees but the administrative hassle of the club paying HMRC.

I can see the argument in favour in principle, and it's normal in France and the US (California anyway) for tourist accommodation.

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I suspect it's the norm in more places than it isn't.  It seems fair to contribute to the public services offered in the place you're staying just as you do via your Council Tax at home.

Post edited at 11:55
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 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I think a lot would depend on the implementation.

If it ended up as an expensive defacto fee on entry to Snowdonia where the proceeds were spent purely on bungs for locals and services for locals which other areas couldn't afford it would be unjust and a bad idea imo. 

If it ended up being a small charge, limited in scope by legislation, spent on areas where tourism has a disproportionate cost to the council which is not recouped in other ways, then it could be a good idea. Guess I'm thinking of things like provision of extra litter bins, public toilets, road maintenance, any other public services impacted etc. A subsidiary for improved public transport to help address traffic, parking, and general sustainability would seem like a good use of the money too. 

Added tax on accommodation would seem like the simplest way to go I guess. Would miss out a lot of the day trip and roadside camping visitors though even though they also add to some of the pressures, so further thought needed on whether there is actually a good way to charge people. 

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a toll on entry via roads, as long as it was small enough not to feel like exploitation, and genuinely only used to cover costs. 

​Context: I live in North West England and have several day trips to Wales every year, and have a holiday there where I actually stay for a night or longer about once a year on average. 

Post edited at 12:03
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 RobAJones 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> For places where a lot of the population is visitors, it's a good way of redressing the balance of needing to provide a high level of public services but not receiving as much Council Tax, so I'd say I'm in support of it.

I agree, but according to some that makes us ultra left wing

https://nation.cymru/news/tourism-tax-ultra-left-wing-policy-idea-straight-...

Does anyone know what impact it has had in the Cotswolds, or is it too early to tell?

 ianstevens 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

The same way literally every other country does - levy accommodation.

 Ryan23 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

In other countries I have seen different prices for accommodation and attractions for visitors and tourists. You get the local price if you have ID that shows you are a local. In some instances the tourist price was double the local price.

I think it would be a great idea for the UK as a whole. It could be decided on a case by case basis what counts as local

 ianstevens 28 Apr 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> They do it in Chamomix for example, in return you get free access to the local train etc. Felt like a decent scheme and made use of it even when I arrived by car. Would I be happy to pay if there were nothing offered? Probably not. 

"Nothing". So you don't use roads or the environment the you are in Cymru? Management of both comes out the Senedd coffers.

Post edited at 12:49
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 RobAJones 28 Apr 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

> The same way literally every other country does - levy accommodation.

What about England , parking in Bourton on the Water is the only example I could find.

Post edited at 12:50
OP Duncan Bourne 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Seems like a more sensible thing than I first thought. Thanks for the feed back. If it goes to help local councils I would in principle be in favour, as long as it went back to those communities and wasn't skimmed off to go elsewhere

 galpinos 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Neil, you are spot on here.

> Generally it's the norm to put it on accommodation (typically charging more for "premium" accommodation like 4* hotels and less for basic e.g. camping/bunkhouses), though if you wanted to "get" day visitors it can be done by increasing parking charges and letting the few arriving on foot/cycle/public transport get away with it.

> A model I really quite like (common in Switzerland for one) is including unlimited use of local public transport in the charge, thus encouraging even those who arrive by car to leave it there and use public transport to get around instead.  This could go very well with the new improved Snowdon Sherpa network.

> For places where a lot of the population is visitors, it's a good way of redressing the balance of needing to provide a high level of public services but not receiving as much Council Tax, so I'd say I'm in support of it.

Especially the paragraph highlighted in bold. I'm not sure the economics will work but extra cash to help fund a functional Sherpa Bus network with a timetable that works for outdoor users (times and regularity) is a sensible solution to the parking/car issue in Snowdonia. Add to that some basic/cheap campsites to cater for the scrotes who fill every parking bay with their £25k campervan and you're onto a winner.

1
 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

I may be misunderstanding, but isn't the Senedd the national government? The proposal was to help fund local councils in heavily touristed areas, which may incur disproportionate extra costs from tourism which aren't easily recovered through available tax options, rather than the national government.

However I'd agree with you that some local roads and some aspects of the environment (eg removing litter, environmental health regulation of tourist facing businesses, etc) are aspects which may come under local authority responsibility and require extra money to maintain due to tourism.

Post edited at 13:21
 Tyler 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

It’s obviously a good idea. Wales is a relatively poor area which, over the next three years, will receive £1 billion less from the Shared Prosperity Fund than it did from EU regional funding which it is supposed to replace. Tourism is one of the largest industries in Wales and probably the only one that is growing. The downside of this that there are extra costs incurred in services etc. It stands to reason that a tourist tax, similar to that which is used extensively elsewhere, is a sensible thing to be doing. 
The theme of this thread seems to be that everyone is ok with it as long as they get some return on it (don’t hold your breath for free téléférique tickets!) rather than going into the local economy or “bungs for locals” as someone had it - that’s what taxes are supposed to do, they are intended to redistribute money not a direct transaction whereby you get exactly what you pay in!

Post edited at 13:37
Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

You need to be very careful with tourist taxes. Millions are happy to pay (taxes) to see world famous cities and sites such as Venice and Paris etc, but Wales?  They may just be shooting themselves in the foot with this idea.

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 Tyler 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

That’s certainly the line the local Tories are taking. They’ve obviously not been able to supply any figures as to how tax will affect demand but perhaps you can or are you just assuming it will drop off a cliff regardless of the amount of tax? I look forward to replies citing the Laffer Curve and defences of non-dom tax loop holes.  

Post edited at 13:51
 Ramblin dave 28 Apr 2022
In reply to AukWalk:

> I think a lot would depend on the implementation.

> If it ended up as an expensive defacto fee on entry to Snowdonia where the proceeds were spent purely on bungs for locals and services for locals which other areas couldn't afford it would be unjust and a bad idea imo. 

I'd not actually be too outraged if a tourism tax was being spent on general local services rather than stuff specifically tailored towards supporting the tourist industry, to be honest, so long as the actual cost was kept proportionate. I mean yes, I'd love to see a really good bus service and more public toilets and all that sort of stuff, but I'm also a bit aware of the fact that the general fact of keeping an area as pretty as possible for people like me to look at when we come visiting also involves a load of planning restrictions and suchlike that make it harder for local people to just get on with having houses and jobs, so if local councils want to skim a bit out of the tourist money to pay for better libraries or playgrounds for local people then I'm not really going to complain.

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 RobAJones 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

> The theme of this thread seems to be that everyone is ok with it as long as they get some return on it

I quite like the idea of a tourist tax being used to improve the bus service in the Lake District, especially as our recent application for more funding was rejected. Seems like that would benefit locals as much, if not more, than tourists.

Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

Not sure what your point is but my thinking is this.

Tourist family from, say Spain (many other countries are available). Driving to Scotland/ lake District etc,  for their holiday. 

Shall we stop off for the night in Wales? No, they have a tax, let's stop in the Peak District instead.

Can you explain what the Tory or non dom references refer to?

Post edited at 14:04
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 balmybaldwin 28 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

Conversely you could see it as: with the current situation you have a relatively deprived area having to spend more of their council funds on road repairs, A&E, policing... for example simply due to the number of outside visitors, and whilst this does bring some jobs, the majority of benefit goes to relatively rich proprietors of local hospitality

 Harry Jarvis 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Not sure what your point is but my thinking is this.

> Tourist family from, say Spain (many other countries are available). Driving to Scotland/ lake District etc,  for their holiday. 

> Shall we stop off for the night in Wales? No, they have a tax, let's stop in the Peak District instead.

Of all the visitors and potential visitors to Wales, what proportion might be affected in the way you describe? 

1
 ExiledScot 28 Apr 2022
In reply to balmybaldwin:

How much employment at all would there be in the gower, Pembrokeshire, gwynedd etc if tourism dropped? Whilst it's not boosting the coffers like cardiff or newport, in many towns tourism is the only major employment. 

 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Guess I see where you're coming from, but for me any planning restrictions and aesthetic choices etc are up to the council and local area, and attracting tourists is one of the benefits they get from doing so, as well as getting to live somewhere that still looks nice etc.  Restrictions within actual national park boundaries may be more outside the local authority's hands, but thats a separate issue in my mind. 

I just don't like the idea of a local council ending up being able to spend significantly more money on services not impacted by tourism by levying charges on people that just want to spend a bit of time somewhere nice. Why should people living in a desirable tourist location be able to make people living in non-desirable areas pay for their public libraries? Would just seem rather unfair to me, essentially a means of extorting visitors if the money wasn't used primarily to ameliorate impacts of tourism.

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 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to galpinos:

> Neil, you are spot on here.

> Especially the paragraph highlighted in bold. I'm not sure the economics will work but extra cash to help fund a functional Sherpa Bus network with a timetable that works for outdoor users (times and regularity) is a sensible solution to the parking/car issue in Snowdonia. Add to that some basic/cheap campsites to cater for the scrotes who fill every parking bay with their £25k campervan and you're onto a winner.

TBH I'd like to see this in the Lakes and the Peak too.  Maybe less so Dartmoor, Exmoor etc but the smaller Parks don't really have the same traffic issues as the "big three".

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Tourist family from, say Spain (many other countries are available). Driving to Scotland/ lake District etc,  for their holiday. 

> Shall we stop off for the night in Wales? No, they have a tax, let's stop in the Peak District instead.

They won't.

If you've been on holiday abroad you've paid a tourist tax.  Most European countries levy them in some form.  Did it put you off?  No, I didn't think so.  You probably didn't even notice that you had - a fiver on your hotel room price or 50p on your camping night just isn't noticeable.  The only time you notice it is when it has to be paid separately on arrival cash only, as is the case in a small number of places, but I'd not envisage that here.  Otherwise, your Premier Inn night costs say £70, it doesn't really occur to you that it's actually £65+tax.

Post edited at 15:10
 mutt 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Does anyone know whether tourist accomodations pays rates? All industries with premises contribute to council funds in that way and get some services such as street cleaning. I assume that the tourist industry already contributes quite a bit of tax apart from the 25k wild campers of course. Explicit tourist taxes would contribute more funds but would they be spent to support the locals or the tourists. All councils are stretched to fund services for needy locals. And would the decline in visitors offset the benefit by loss of properties/businesses that can't make ends meet with declining visitors. Snowdonia is very far away (from me anyway) so I would likely go to the lakes or Scotland if Wales got more expensive.

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 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

As the originator of the 'bungs' comment, I'd say I wouldn't necessarily want a specific 'extra' of some kind like a free train ticket in return. However I'd want to know the money was genuinely being spent to mitigate direct impacts of tourism which were falling disproportionately on certain areas. A charge on people wishing to spend a bit of time somewhere nice isn't the right way to do things if your main aim is to redistribute wealth for wider purposes, in my opinion.  I agree that it's not necessary to get back exactly what you pay in, but there should be some kind of link, especially for a tax like the tourist tax where it's so directed and situation-specific. 

My objection would be if the scope of the charge was widened and became a way for certain councils to extort money for their own population's gain from visitors - that would be unjustified in my opinion. 

​​​​​​The actual gov page seems to indicate that the intention is mainly to mitigate the impact of tourism on local authority finances, and that's fine by me. However I just think that that's where the tax should end, rather than becoming a means for some fortunately located councils to disproportionately gain at the expense of people living elsewhere. 

​​​​​​I think that view of tax as a means of redistributing money is a bit narrow too - tax is also for incentivising or disincentiviaing certain behaviours, and funding collective infrastructure and services which we all rely on from sources of money seen as fair by the government. 

Post edited at 15:15
In reply to ExiledScot:

>>How much employment at all would there be in the gower, Pembrokeshire, gwynedd etc if tourism dropped?

That's a valid observation, but, in parts of Gwynedd particularly, there is so much pressure on roads, parking and public services that there is strong feeling that we need to move to a model with smaller visitor numbers but a higher 'per visit' spend. 

In particular there are large numbers of day visitors who spend little or nothing in the local economy - buying petrol before they set off for "Mount Snowdon" and bringing their picnic from home. 

Unfortunately, those are the visitors least likely to be affected by the most common tourist tax models (apart from parking charges and fines; which have already been  increased). 

 Tyler 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Not sure what your point is but my thinking is this.

> Tourist family from, say Spain (many other countries are available). Driving to Scotland/ lake District etc,  for their holiday. 

> Shall we stop off for the night in Wales? No, they have a tax, let's stop in the Peak District instead.

You’d better let the policy makers at the Senedd know then as I’m sure they won’t  have realised that price has the potential to affect demand nor considered the concept of competition and were just going to slap a £1000 levy of all tourists.

> Can you explain what the Tory or non dom references refer to?

The Tories have need the loudest voices against the proposal in Wales and have been making the same ‘killing the goose that lays the golden egg’ type arguments. Non-dom was a topical reference to the fact that every time a tax is proposed which would affect the well off for the benefit of the less well off the Tories and  their acolytes start bleating about how this will ultimately back fire and how the country actually benefits from not taxing the well off. 

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

One option with regard to parking would be to make the entire National Park a Controlled Parking Zone with no free parking whatsoever for visitors.  Residents would be able to register their vehicles to escape such charges.

If you want to see a "low car" or "zero car" model there are plenty of examples to look at in Switzerland and the likes, and it's cars that are causing most of the harm.  If everyone day-tripping parked up in a big car park by Llandudno Junction (or just before Llangollen if entering via the M54-A5), entered the Park via the railway to Betws or Bangor or bus, and got around with the Sherpa buses, there'd be nowhere near the problem.

Yes, Snowdon itself is busy, but who cares?  It's one mountain.

Post edited at 15:22
 Tyler 28 Apr 2022
In reply to AukWalk:

‘Bungs’, ‘extort’. Is that how you describe all tax policy or is it just your bias showing?

 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

Erm, no? You seem to be arguing in support of using a tourist tax to directly subsidise certain local councils out of proportion to the impact tourism has on them, in fact hinting you want them to replace EU funding in the tourist tax areas. 

That's unjust in my opinion, which is why I don't like it. 

I guess I just have a bias against what I see as unfair taxation, if that's what you mean. What bias did you have in mind? Do you think I'm some kind of Tory libertarian or what? 

Post edited at 15:30
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 mrphilipoldham 28 Apr 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

Everyone uses roads outside their own council areas. I pay for the upkeep in West Yorkshire so if you’re ever passing through you will be able to do as pleasantly and easily as possible, much in the same way I hope to when I visit North Wales. I shouldn’t have to pay extra for the privilege of doing so. If you were to follow that argument then business visitors should be taxed higher still, as they’re least likely to spend considerable money on the tourism industry offerings but still make use of the roads. I’ve been to North Wales for fun, and spent on accommodation, hospitality and so on. I’ve been there for work and spent £2 on a coffee at the services. Yet I’ve used the roads the same and put in far less money in to the local economy. 

The environment I can sort of get on board with, however I don’t know enough about it. How are the current authorities and works funded? Is it by the Welsh gov through Welsh taxation, Welsh gov by devolved funding from Westminster, or the UK gov? Because two of those options I’ve already paid my fair share for.

The other obvious argument is that if I am paying to subsidise local councils for services that I’m unlikely to use then I’ll pass and go to the Lake District and spend my tourist money there instead - personally I wouldn’t at a £ or two a night but I have the disposable income for it not to matter, not everyone is in the same boat.
 

Like I say, I’d be happy to pay extra, but not without seeing a return on that investment. Worth noting that the return on investment is likely to provide improvements for locals as it is me. Buses, bins, loos, whatever it may be.

Post edited at 15:46
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In reply to Neil Williams:

Or just levy a tax on all vehicles passing through certain parts of the SNP in the same way emissions zones work, with exemptions / annual passes for locals and regular users and park-and-ride available from the edges of the zone.

There are plenty of options available, just none of them are easy or universally acceptable. 

(Pretty much the same as your edited Llandudno jnct /Llangollen model)

Post edited at 15:32
 Tyler 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

This sort of thing is needed is a good idea and probably required in lots of areas (although I thing Llangollen and Llandudno Junction are too far out but that’s a minor detail). I suspect there might already be enough bus capacity in Eryri but maybe needs to be more integrated and more free parking at the hubs.

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

The reason I'd use the Junction is that it is just off the A55 (which can deal with the traffic) and easily has spare land to build a large multi storey (and doesn't look pretty so wouldn't be blighted by one), as well as having the Conwy Valley railway which can easily handle the traffic (and could have frequency increased accordingly).

I'm much less fixed on Llangollen, but it is where the "pseudomotorway" A5 ends and it becomes a much more narrow and congested road.

Post edited at 15:46
 subtle 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I've never been to Wales.

I don't think a tourism tax being introduced would make any difference to my thoughts on whether to visit Wales or not.

Unless it was a really over the top tax that would make me think it was a dear/expensive place to go.

London is a dear/expensive place to go but I've been to London for leisure.   

 ExiledScot 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

I agree, my scepticism means i wonder if they might take loads of tax off north wales tourists which it is then spent where most voters live.

Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If you've been on holiday abroad you've paid a tourist tax.  Most European countries levy them in some form.  Did it put you off?  No, I didn't think so.  

Actually the answer is yes. I've been to some parts of Germany where the tourist tax made me grumble. I didn't not stay as I can afford the tax, many people can't. 

3
Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Otherwise, your Premier Inn night costs say £70, it doesn't really occur to you that it's actually £65+tax.

Wow. I'd never have been able to work that one out. Thanks.

1
Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Tyler:

> You’d better let the policy makers at the Senedd know then as I’m sure they won’t  have realised that price has the potential to affect demand nor considered the concept of competition and were just going to slap a £1000 levy of all tourists.

> The Tories have need the loudest voices against the proposal in Wales and have been making the same ‘killing the goose that lays the golden egg’ type arguments. Non-dom was a topical reference to the fact that every time a tax is proposed which would affect the well off for the benefit of the less well off the Tories and  their acolytes start bleating about how this will ultimately back fire and how the country actually benefits from not taxing the well off. 

Your first paragraph is silly.

Ok, so I get the point of your second comment. However if I'm a Non Dom wealth Tory, do you really think a £5 tax will put me off checking into The Celtic Manor Resort? This tax would affect the less well off far more than the rich. 

 henwardian 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I'm late to the party and lazy so I'm sure people have already pointed this out but I'll +1 it anyway:

Lots of EU places (and probably elsewhere) have a perfectly functional tourist tax. The way it works is by levying a flat rate fee on each night stayed at any short-term accommodation (i.e. hotels, bnbs, hostels, etc. etc.). It is an excellent way to raise funds for tourist infrastructure and the costs of cleaning up after tourists and generally speaking is paid by tourists and not residents.

I'd be pretty happy to see something similar implemented in touristy areas of Scotland tbh.

Also, I had a random idea the other day in relation to holiday homes: Double or triple the council tax if it's a second home/holiday home. This has the twin advantages of giving locals a competitive advantage in the overall financials of buying and operating a new home and supplying a load of cash to the local council for toilets and roads and all the other stuff that, highland council at least, don't have any money to pay for. The improved infrastructure would also be of benefit to those owning a holiday home when they come to visit, so while mainly of benefit to the local residents, not entirely so.

Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> Of all the visitors and potential visitors to Wales, what proportion might be affected in the way you describe? 

In the specific case of driving from Spain to Scotland via a single night stay in Wales? Don't know, 0.00001% Maybe more, maybe less.

 ExiledScot 28 Apr 2022
In reply to henwardian:

I'd be very happy if it was used to fund more toilets, car parking, better bus services, foot and cycle paths, all the things tourists need and use. 

 Harry Jarvis 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> In the specific case of driving from Spain to Scotland via a single night stay in Wales? Don't know, 0.00001% Maybe more, maybe less.

So, a vanishingly small number, more than outweighed by the revenue raised by those travellers who aren't put off by the tax. 

Le Sapeur 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

On the other hand it could be 3 out of 5. 

The principle of an extra tax would put me off. I can't answer for others.

3
 MeMeMe 28 Apr 2022
In reply to henwardian:

> Also, I had a random idea the other day in relation to holiday homes: Double or triple the council tax if it's a second home/holiday home. This has the twin advantages of giving locals a competitive advantage in the overall financials of buying and operating a new home and supplying a load of cash to the local council for toilets and roads and all the other stuff that, highland council at least, don't have any money to pay for. The improved infrastructure would also be of benefit to those owning a holiday home when they come to visit, so while mainly of benefit to the local residents, not entirely so.

It's not a bad idea but I think in Wales councils can already double the council tax on second homes and are changing it next year so they can quadruple it.

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Actually the answer is yes. I've been to some parts of Germany where the tourist tax made me grumble. I didn't not stay as I can afford the tax, many people can't.

People couldn't afford an extra £5 on their £70 hotel, or an extra 50p on their £6 camping night?  I think that's pushing it.  The sums involved are generally very small, and it's ubiquitous.

1
 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> Wow. I'd never have been able to work that one out. Thanks.

Most people won't notice.

1
 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> The principle of an extra tax would put me off.

I don't think it would.  You'd not go for a weekend in Wales over the matter of £10 for a hotel stay or £1 for a campsite?  I think that's truly biting off nose to spite face.

Even if that's true, you are in the minority.

1
 peppermill 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Stayed in a cheap hotel on Kos a few weeks ago. Tourist tax hadn't been included in the cost.

My reaction when I was told was "Oh right" then I paid my 2 Euro and moved on with my day.

The way things are going regarding cost of living etc I doubt a tax that works out as a small percentage of anyone's holiday will be what puts tourists off coming to Wales.

 George Ormerod 28 Apr 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> I agree, but according to some that makes us ultra left wing

Loads of real hot beds of woke leftyness have a tourist tax.  Like the Peoples Republic of Texas.

 henwardian 28 Apr 2022
In reply to MeMeMe:

> It's not a bad idea but I think in Wales councils can already double the council tax on second homes and are changing it next year so they can quadruple it.

Oh, that's interesting to know. I know that where I once lived in Fife, if a property is empty and unfurnished you pay no council tax but if it stays that way for more than a year, you start paying double council tax. So clearly councils can and have implemented punishing multipliers to discourage undesirable activities/make extra cash.

 Dave the Rave 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Not sure what the plan is Duncan.

Maybe tax the businesses more that are making the most profit from the tourists?

 Andrew Lodge 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

As people have said many European countries collect taxe de sejour or something similar. I'm always amazed it is worthwhile. For most self catering type accommodation it is less then €1 per day.

Surely the cost of collection and administration has to be more than the revenue raised?

 Neil Williams 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Andrew Lodge:

Why would it cost anything?  Hotels etc collect it and transfer it to the authorities, costing the authorities precisely EUR0.00.

1
 brianjcooper 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I'm not sure how a tourism tax would work in Manchester or Birmingham, both of which have excellent art galleries etc.

 birdie num num 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I normally like to chuck my McDonalds cartons etc out of the Micra window while I'm speeding through Bangor after a good day out. Whilst I baulk at the idea of a tourist tax, I reluctantly acknowledge that it might fund an extra roadsweeper to keep the place a bit tidier.

Post edited at 23:17
1
In reply to brianjcooper:

>> not sure how a tourism tax would work in Manchester or Birmingham

Bath has an emissions zone charge that seems to work?

Post edited at 23:26
 AukWalk 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Seems a bit irrelevant to tourists given the emission zone charge only applies to commercial vehicles? 

 ianstevens 29 Apr 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> What about England , parking in Bourton on the Water is the only example I could find.

Clearly every other country with a tourist tax 🙃 

Pedantry 1 - 0 me 😂 

 jimtitt 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Why would it cost anything?  Hotels etc collect it and transfer it to the authorities, costing the authorities precisely EUR0.00.

You mean the extra work for the hotel is free? And the accounting for the council, the control and enforcement then the allocation and budgeting for a variable sum all come free?

1
 elsewhere 29 Apr 2022
In reply to brianjcooper:

I expect it work about the same as it does in equivalent cities in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Greece, Belgium, Austria and Portugal. I think most of us must have paid tourist taxes by now and mostly without realising.

 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to elsewhere:

Whilst a quid a stay is negligible many of the countries you list charge leisure services at lower rates of vat and here it just went back up to 20%.

Note. I'd happily pay a few pound per stay if it meant more free public toilets, those places where you literally have to have the right coin just to go for a slash are dire. (Or use the nearest hedge which isn't always recommended!)

 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> You mean the extra work for the hotel is free? And the accounting for the council, the control and enforcement then the allocation and budgeting for a variable sum all come free?

It would be initially cheaper to implement by adding 1% to vat, but then hmrc would need separate the funds and pass back to local areas. Either way it isn't simplifying tax. 

In reply to Neil Williams:

Those ‘gateway’ proposals reappear for councils debate every few years. I think Llanrwst often pops up as a candidate as well as Llandudno Junction .

The proposals always get voted down due to pressure from local businesses who want vehicles circulating from shop to shop. A huge proportion of visitors walk around villages and towns looking in the shops and going to pubs, never doing ‘outdoor’ stuff. 
However, I think we’ve now reached tipping point and parking restrictions and higher payments will develop alongside gateway schemes.

It’s only a small thing, but living in the Derbyshire Dales gets you a car pass for free parking in DDDC car parks before and after certain times.  Extension of these schemes and further restrictions to non residents is inevitable.

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> You mean the extra work for the hotel is free? And the accounting for the council, the control and enforcement then the allocation and budgeting for a variable sum all come free?

It's pretty negligible.  OK, not EUR0, but negligible.

If it wasn't viable, it wouldn't already be being done in the vast majority of Europe.  Suggesting it wouldn't work here is just British exceptionalism.

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

Many are now contactless.  I agree about the inconvenience of the right coin (I genuinely almost s*** myself due to this in the Lakes once, had to go into a nearby shop and spend money to get change) but I don't mind paying per-se.  In most countries public toilet use is chargeable (even motorway services in some cases), and it is quite effective at deterring vandalism.

Post edited at 08:57
 jimtitt 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

But that's what you wrote :- "costing the authorities precisely EUR0.00."

And ignored any cost to the collector as well.

1
 RobAJones 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> It would be initially cheaper to implement by adding 1% to vat, but then hmrc would need separate the funds and pass back to local areas. Either way it isn't simplifying tax. 

You could make a silimilar argument for charging people to park at council owned carparks. I spoke about this briefly to my brother in Venice last night. He said it is actually quite common for tourists to moan about the current tax, especially if it is added on at the end of a stay, 100€, for a couple staying 5 nights isn't inconsiderable. Looks like they are planning to introduce a day charge of upto 10€ in an effort to limit numbers, but I can also see this raising considerable local funds. I don't think tourists get any benefits from this charge. Looking at our national parks I'd see it more as an opportunity to change behaviour than raise money. An extra £100 on a weeks holiday in Ambleside, for a couple, is a lot of money, but if it resulted in a frequent free bus service it argue its good value all round. To those who would object to an extra pound or to two park/camp and claim they would go somewhere else instead, fair enough. I cycled past Whinlatter last night, there were 8 cars on the verge, admittedly probably relatively local, and at least it dry at the moment. 

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

OK, perhaps I should have written "costing the authorities about 10 cents out of the typical EUR3-5 sum", I was being a little hyperbolic.

The root of my point was that it DOESN'T cost more than EUR1 to collect EUR1 for this purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be being done just about everywhere other than here.

 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

Most pay toilets are cleaner too, but specific coin only should consigned to history. 

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Most pay toilets are cleaner too, but specific coin only should consigned to history.

Definitely agreed.  At least accept any coin or combination of coins up to the price.  I would happily have paid even £20 (yes, I know, not a coin) for a dump in that specific incident, it got very, very close to being quite unpleasant.  But contactless is the real fix, also means there's nothing there to steal from the mechanism.

Post edited at 09:13
 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

In terms of whinlatter etc for locals having a quick blast out it makes evening activities expensive (relatively), there are also some car parks where you run the risk of being locked in on an evening. 

The local lakes solution is multiple annual passes for different agencies, which isn't cheap.

Post edited at 09:15
 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

It would help if the local authority and Park Authority were one and the same - but it seems the unitarisation plan is going to fragment that further, with Cumbria planned to be (roughly) split back into the traditional Cumberland and Westmorland as unitaries, which will only make this sort of thing worse.

Post edited at 09:17
 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

The problem then is the dire 4g signal in some areas for a payment system. Investment all round is required. 

 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> The problem then is the dire 4g signal in some areas for a payment system.

True.  It'd work fine at all the urban ones, though.  I think Cumbria has actually now done it - certainly the one in the car park at Ambleside now takes contactless.

> Investment all round is required. 

Investment in public toilets is required all over the UK.  I see non-provision as discrimination on all of age, disability, financial means* and gender - it astonishes me we accept it, I can scarcely think of anything else that hits more protected characteristics than that.  In essence it means a vast swathe of older (particularly female) society and those with e.g. IBS/Crohn's can't use many public spaces at all unless they suffer the indignity of having to wear adult nappies.

* Not because of being able to afford 50p or whatever, but because a non-car-owner can't just drive home for the loo when using a local park, they may have to wait for e.g. an hourly bus, so may not be able to use the park at all.

Post edited at 09:21
 ExiledScot 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

In simple terms it is pants, councils, NP, NT, and FC all have parking, but nothing appears centrally coordinated.

 elsewhere 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> OK, perhaps I should have written "costing the authorities about 10 cents out of the typical EUR3-5 sum", I was being a little hyperbolic.

Or a 1 euro bank fee at the end of the day/week/month/year. I don't suppose the hotel or whatever pays the tax fifty times if they have fifty guests that day/week/month/year.

Post edited at 09:26
 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to elsewhere:

> Or a 1 euro bank fee at the end of the day/week/month/year. I don't suppose the hotel or whatever pays the tax fifty times if they have fifty guests that day/week/month/year.

Indeed.  There are plenty of cases where small sums of tax are paid, such as the VAT on a chocolate bar costing less than £1.  It's not like this is a new idea.

 RobAJones 29 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> In terms of whinlatter etc for locals having a quick blast out it makes evening activities expensive (relatively),

I'd have more sympathy if they were 20 year old cars not a brand new Range Rover. 

>there are also some car parks where you run the risk of being locked in on an evening. 

There is also plenty of free off road parking within a mile or so, where you won't get locked in and won't make a mess of the verge. If your local you'll know this. 

> The local lakes solution is multiple annual passes for different agencies, which isn't cheap.

Whinlatter is £40 adding Grisedale is another £10, for two vehicles. They used to let you have one for free if you did a days labouring on the trails. I find that local families often have a pass to make use of the trails for walking their dogs/kids, using the cafe, park run etc. Mountainbikers who use it dozens of times less so, climbers are probably worse, but at least we have some way to go to rival cavers. 

If there was a free, frequent  bus service as a local why would I need a pass? 

Le Sapeur 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> People couldn't afford an extra £5 on their £70 hotel, or an extra 50p on their £6 camping night? 

If your budget is £6 per night then an extra 50p tax is quite a lot.

My other point is that it's Wales, which isn't top of most travellers bucket list.  Why leave the Cotswolds to go to Wales when you will be taxed for the pleasure? Places like Paris and Venice are on bucket lists and tax in their cases is irrelevant, people will still go whatever the cost. 

1
 Neil Williams 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> If your budget is £6 per night then an extra 50p tax is quite a lot.

That's very niche.  Being able to afford £6 but not £6.50 is a very, very narrow range of affordability.  Most people would be able to either afford £6.50 or not be able to afford to go at all.

> My other point is that it's Wales, which isn't top of most travellers bucket list.  Why leave the Cotswolds to go to Wales when you will be taxed for the pleasure? Places like Paris and Venice are on bucket lists and tax in their cases is irrelevant, people will still go whatever the cost. 

The price of parking at Pen y Pass demonstrates that people will go pretty much whatever the cost.  The only people it will put off are those who would "bite off their nose to spite their face" due to an ideological objection to a tourist tax, and to be honest those are few in number, and Snowdonia is pretty busy anyway so they can be ignored.

2
 Doug 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

There's a 'tax de séjour' everywhere in France, although how much varies from place to place - Paris is more expensive than most, small villages off the usual tourist routes much cheaper. Maybe different in Scandinavia but from memory there's a similar tax in most EU countries.

 jimtitt 29 Apr 2022
In reply to Doug:

Widespread in Germany, supposed to only be for health resorts (spa and so on) but that's extremely flexible. The income is required by law to only be spent for the benefit of the visitors but that also appears to be flexibly interpreted. The highest ones are €3.50 per day.

Charging for dogs is commonplace, the health benefits of paying €1 for my collie when we go a village which has "healthy and revitalising air" escapes me in a campsite with 200 grills going full blast!


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