In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to winhill)
> [I'm not sure about the Born This Way arguments about sexuality/gender, it implies it may be possible to create a medical definition (as opposed to a psychological) definition, which is counter productive and itself discriminatory.]
>
> I haven't read the rest of the thread so apologies if this has already come up, but how sexuality and gender are manifest in the brain is a matter of science, not for politics. It doesn't matter whether the truth could be used to justify mistreating people, you treat people properly for moral and social reasons, while you pursue the truth about how the brain works through science - regardless of whether the results happen to support your political cause.
>
> I don't think anyone would choose to be trans, and I don't think there's any evidence that gender identity can be successfully changed by psychological therapies. Pretending that everything in life is down to wishy-washy social factors is a dangerous and utterly misguided path IMO. Most of the genuine homophobia I encounter is based on the idea that being gay is a choice, which I assume is what inspired the 'born that way' campaign (which I know nearly nothing about).
The reason I bought up sexuality with gender was just that AFAIK Born This Way arguments originated by looking at sexuality first, with Simon LeVay etc. It's more of an American thing, I think.
But I totally disagree about the 'sciencey' thing, I'd have thought gender might throw more light on it as a social construct?
Science based arguments may offer a beachhead from which to deflect choice arguments, but that is purely contingent and based on it's (supposed) effectiveness against a particular audience and I don't see why that particular audience should dictate how the debate is framed. (The Catholic church supports the science and these arguments leave Love The Sinner Not The Sin intact so I think even it's usefulness is debatable).
The language of science and choice describes a false dichotomy and I don't see scientific arguments nor even 'choice' style arguments, as accurately expressing the lived experience.
To use a good example that has been thrown up by the Equality Act, the Act defines the protected characteristic as "where a person has proposed, started or completed a process to change his or her sex", whilst I said above this is a big step forwards, objections were raised at the time that it requires a binary biased notion of certainty. That is it requires that the decision to transition has been made.
So what happens to people prior to making the decision, there is no right to experiment or explore the gender landscape in order to decide to make a proposed change. So the right to manifest change is enshrined but not the right to undergo a process to decide to manifest change. It's not enough to say, well try it and if you don't like it no harm done, because this could reflect an on-going process with regular, daily even, changes. To even talk about choice here seems to completely mis-describe the events as someone is simply manifesting a process of personal discovery.
It seems a reasonable objection to me, so that the definition could read "where a person is considering, has proposed, started or completed a process to change his or her sex". What this can describe is not some binaried 'choice' but rather, via freedom of expression, a Right to Discovery. The lived experience is not expressed in the dichotomous language of science and choice but understood as a non-linear process of personal discovery.
Even if science advanced to the point where it was possible to predict the outcomes of these processes with 100% certainty, it is not the right to choose the outcome that pervades, it is the right to undergo (and therefore to have enjoyed a lived experience of) the process of discovery.
If the Right to Freedom of Expression includes a Right to undergo processes of personal discovery then I struggle to see what input science offers, in fact I struggle to understand the vector by which you'd even connect the two.