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LIVE: Trump supporters storm US.Capitol

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 Timmd 06 Jan 2021

I couldn't see a thread about it already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzGDjf4dWoE&

The senators are 'on lock down' inside, for security presumably, rather than in a covid related way.

Post edited at 20:00
 Timmd 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUh9iYE_Obs&

They've been quietly escorted from the Capitol it seems.

Edit: The senators have.

Post edited at 20:26
 Andy Johnson 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

If the protestors were BLM then the pepper spray, batons and rubber bullets would have been out in force. It's an attempted coup. Scary.

10
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> If the protestors were BLM then the pepper spray, batons and rubber bullets would have been out in force. It's an attempted coup. Scary.

I was just thinking the same. Why are they being dignified with the term militia? 

 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

A woman has been shot in the chest.

 Tyler 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Trump is an insane man trying to avoid prison, what Ted Cruz did today is beyond my comprehension. 

 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Tyler:

The GOP politicians sound shocked tbh, even those who are supporters.

They created this. Their use of the term traitor for anyone against the GOP. This is Trump's legacy.

2
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Even Trump himself has tweeted - twice - to try to call them off!

24
 Jmacquarrie 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Agreed. If you try and stop the democratic process by force to hold onto power then you are a fascist, not a protester.

Post edited at 20:49
 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Partly, remain peaceful? They'd just stormed the building.

 Andy Johnson 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

BBC are reporting that the national guard are being deployed

 rubble 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

no he didn’t ... he said to keep it non violent ... too late ... this is nothing short of domestic terorism at the behest of the anus that is Trump

1
 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

I’ve run out of TVs and monitors to put the live broadcasts on.   I need a war room.

 mbh 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

He just said no violence, he didn't say go home. It's a bit late anyway, having incited just this earlier in the day.

And Cruz in his speech was despicable, bleating about how so many people don't trust the results of their election without saying that the actual President has been ranting on and on, endlessly, repeating lies that people end up believing.

 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> If the protestors were BLM then the pepper spray, batons and rubber bullets would have been out in force.

Some seem to be carrying firearms whilst invading the government buildings. Sod pepper spray should be an anti terrorism unit with a relaxed approach to who will be able to answer questions later.

2
 Tyler 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Neil Williams: 

> Even Trump himself has tweeted - twice - to try to call them off!

No he didn’t, he didn’t tell them to go home. He tried to give himself some plausible deniability

1
 mbh 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Given that this follows his speech to the protestors this morning, on top of his earlier Twitter incitements, surely the halfwits that form the rest of the American government can invoke or be made to invoke the 25th amendment and get rid of him with immediate effect? 

If not now, when?

1
 Tyler 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> The GOP politicians sound shocked tbh, even those who are supporters.

Surely this is what they wanted? It seems to have been the tactic  

> They created this. Their use of the term traitor for anyone against the GOP. This is Trump's legacy.

Unfortunately it’s not certain that it won’t be successful long term.  

 mbh 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

I say halfwits but, outside the inner-circle of government, Klobuchar was enormously impressive in the Senate before it all unravelled, and I even had a sneaking few moments of agreement with McConnell, while thinking that his ability to scheme probably far outstrips my ability to spot it.

 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

I think its the first time I've agreed with McConnell.

 mbh 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Oh FFS, Trump now does a video saying 'You have to go home now,' but starts it by saying 'We had an election that was stolen from us, everyone knows it, especially the other side..."

Exactly the words to calm things down. 

Post edited at 21:32
 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

On the upside Ossoff has just been announced the winner. So that gives the Democrats a majority in the Senate (with the VP tie breaker vote).

In reply to mbh:

I wonder whether the Dems winning both Georgia seats (just called) contributed to his 'capitulation'?

 mbh 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Don't know, but great news anyway.

 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

> Oh FFS, Trump now does a video saying 'You have to go home now,' but starts it by saying 'We had an election that was stolen from us, everyone knows it, especially the other side..."

> Exactly the words to calm things down. 

That was incredible.

I don't see why the 25th Amendment process isn't started tonight.

1
 profitofdoom 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> On the upside Ossoff has just been announced the winner. So that gives the Democrats a majority in the Senate (with the VP tie breaker vote).

EXCELLENT news, thanks

 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Can we get some decent sports reporters in for the next steps?  

 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

> Exactly the words to calm things down. 

Twitter have marked that and another tweet up with some new info message and are preventing it being replied to/retweeted etc.

In reply to Timmd:

This is what happens when there's more guns than people. What a bonkers place. 

According to Wikipedia:

USA - 1.2 guns per person

Afghanistan - 0.12 guns per person.

England and Wales - 0.042 guns per person.

Why do they need so many shooty sticks?

2
 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Teargas, flash bangs and a bunch of protestors utterly unprepared for this sort of thing now jumping out of windows onto the balcony.

In reply to Timmd:

So this is how it all ends for Trump hopefully. 

His failed low cost budget coup should be fully prosecuted imo but that's up to the Americans.

We all know he's only told them to go home because he's not got the man power and military on his side. Let's not forget this is the man that praises dictators and calls for his political opponents to be jailed.  He'd be sitting on a golden tank driving into the capital if he had it his way.  

F@ckig do one Donald.  

In reply to wintertree:

> Teargas, flash bangs and a bunch of protestors utterly unprepared for this sort of thing now jumping out of windows onto the balcony.

What did they expect?

If I storm parliament, I'd anticipate a good kicking.

(I am not making any moral judgement on the rights and wrongs of this reality).

In reply to Timmd:

I cant quite believe my eyes.

And he doesn't condemn them. 

This circus has to end.

Post edited at 22:17
 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

> What did they expect?

I don't think they thought that far ahead TBH.  They look remarkably unprepared for a hostile siege.  Compare it to a western European riot it all looks rather amateur - I've seen at least one child wandering around with parents.

> If I storm parliament, I'd anticipate a good kicking.

> (I am not making any moral judgement on the rights and wrongs of this reality).

Of storming parliament or of the mob getting a good kicking?  

Post edited at 22:17
 Duncan Bourne 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

To hell with Godwin's law I see Trump as a modern Hitler.

3
In reply to Timmd:

I am no proponent of the death penalty but Trump is. 

Can we work up some strange collaboration of uk/us law and have him hung for treason? 

😁 Smiley face, indicates joke, not to be taken too seriously. 

2
 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I cant quite believe my eyes.

> And he doesn't condemn them. 

"We love".. It's incredible.

 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> To hell with Godwin's law I see Trump as a modern Hitler.


A wannabe one but I think Hitler does give an important lesson. He tried a piss poor coup and wasnt properly slapped down and then went the political route. Once someone tries sedition then its time to slap down extremely hard.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> To hell with Godwin's law I see Trump as a modern Hitler.

It does look suspiciously like fascism to me. Ultra-nationalism, manipulation of the public by despot, suppression of the opposition... 

2
 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/532988-democratic-lawmakers-call-for-pence-to-invoke-25th-amendment-remove

I can't see how he can't be removed from power instantly. TBH this has now finished any chance of 2024 talk. This is what the world will remember him for.

Post edited at 22:25
1
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Gotta be on the way

1
In reply to Jon Stewart:

If only Postman Pat was here to tell us that BLM and Critical Race Theory are the threats to democracy we should be on our guard against! 

3
 Jmacquarrie 06 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

They got in far far too easily, there is no way the security services didn't suspect this might happen.

If you really don't want anybody getting into your government buildings you'll stop them. Somebody making decisions somewhere made sure they were under prepared.

3
 Jamie Wakeham 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Ilhan Omar has said she's drawing up articles of impeachment - that's not quite invoking the 25th, though. 

For me this is just ramming home how systematically racist the US is. If the armed mob storming the Capitol had black skin, they'd have responded with a huge display of force. There'd be bodies everywhere.

2
 Jim Lancs 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> They got in far far too easily, there is no way the security services didn't suspect this might happen.

I think it went further than that - there was clearly collusion between a number (a sizeable number ?) of the security people and the protesters.

Post edited at 22:36
2
 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> If you really don't want anybody getting into your government buildings you'll stop them. Somebody making decisions somewhere made sure they were under prepared.

Yes, I have had similar thoughts.  Will be interesting to see if the guard rotas and police mobilisations etc are published and compared to previous, similar events.

Trump as replaced a lot of people at the top of a lot of federal organisations.  It's hard to see this happening without a series of specific holes being created in advance.

Post edited at 22:40
1
 waitout 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> That was incredible.

> I don't see why the 25th Amendment process isn't started tonight.

I may be complicated getting Congress to sit for that right now.

Personally I think all this is great. I hate the mobs agenda, but over running the Capitol is part of the game and is not a coup.

13
 Mr Lopez 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

Washington/Columbia Mayor gave orders yesterday to the effect. Obviously don't fancy a civil war 'for dummies' getting started on her watch.

What i don't get is why they are just asking people to get out and go home. They should shut the doors and only let them out to march them straight in prison transport buses.

Apparently there's police officers injured, journalists attacked, 2 pipe bombs defused, and 2 more 'explosive devices' of some sort at the Dems and Republican HQ's, and all they are etting is a pat in the back... Weird

Post edited at 22:43
 Roadrunner6 06 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

I don't think it's a bad thing. It ends any talk of 2024. Even Republicans seemed shocked. Fox News is really taken a back. It's quite funny watching them realize this is what they helped instigate.

The first thing congress should do is meet up in a basement and certify the election. Don't let this delay or derail the process of democracy.

 Jimbo C 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

I really do hope that he ends up in jail. Please let it happen. 

 waitout 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I don't think it's a bad thing. It ends any talk of 2024. Even Republicans seemed shocked. Fox News is really taken a back. It's quite funny watching them realize this is what they helped instigate.

> The first thing congress should do is meet up in a basement and certify the election. Don't let this delay or derail the process of democracy.

Yes good points, especially re the GOP forwarding Trump as a candidate. I wonder where the other Trumps are in all this, his f*ckface sons wearing empty plate carriers and home depot gloves among the mob?

A basement would be awesome, but there's probably a comfortable plan B location with a Starbucks somewhere. 

 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Congressman Susan Wild was just giving an interview from their safe location.  Circa 400 people crammed in, no social distancing, many new republican “freshmen” refused the masks they were offered putting all - especially older members - at more risk.  Insanity.  I hope they are all named.

 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

And the orange moron has doubled down and put out a moronic tweet reiterating his video earlier.

I did think they should have left it to the local states for tax etc but now I think he needs slapping down extremely hard along with the seditious cult members. Otherwise people will figure they try it again and next time they might succeed.

 Timmd 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> Agreed. If you try and stop the democratic process by force to hold onto power then you are a fascist, not a protester.

I was just pondering that force used out of anger fueled by lies which is aimed at halting legitimate democratic process has an air of fascism about it. 

Post edited at 23:43
 Jmacquarrie 06 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> I did think they should have left it to the local states for tax etc but now I think he needs slapping down extremely hard along with the seditious cult members. Otherwise people will figure they try it again and next time they might succeed.

Letting this go the way they have does not fill me with confidence for the upcoming inauguration

In reply to Roadrunner6:

> The first thing congress should do is meet up in a basement

Reports that Congress plan to resume sitting tonight, to continue the ratification of the election.

Would be an opportune moment to invoke Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whilst Congress is stilled shocked and pussed off.

Given that Trump has been winding his gun-toting lunatic followers for the last two months, this action wasnt that unexpected.

Post edited at 23:26
1
 waitout 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> What i don't get is why they are just asking people to get out and go home. They should shut the doors and only let them out to march them straight in prison transport buses.

Because this is not Romania in 1989. As stupid as these protesters are, this is exactly what the US system is built on. Individuals shooting and bombing are in the crosshairs of serious prosecution of course, but the rest are - whatever their views - engaged in a time old political process that is not necessarily criminal. To automatically criminalize everyone there would be about the worst thing to do. Not counting any acts of violence, disrupting and over-running the houses of elected officials is not necessarily a felony and making it so is a terrible precedent to set that will only auto-justify them. Yes, the US gets this stuff wrong sometimes, but now is not the time to pretend it's a revolution or coup regardless of what the News media wants it to look like.

Now, over-running the White house, the seat of the Head of State, that would be another matter.....

21
 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> Now, over-running the White house, the seat of the Head of State, that would be another matter.....

No the Capital building is as important as the white house. The legislative branch is as important as the head of the executive.

1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> For me this is just ramming home how systematically racist the US is. If the armed mob storming the Capitol had black skin, they'd have responded with a huge display of force. There'd be bodies everywhere.

Anyone fancy a go at defending the motion "US law enforcement is not systematically racist" in light of this latest evidence? Can't wait to hear Sam Harris retract his bullshit on the topic. 

2
 wintertree 06 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Anyone fancy a go at defending the motion "US law enforcement is not systematically racist" in light of this latest evidence? Can't wait to hear Sam Harris retract his bullshit on the topic. 

The CBS news team were very blunt on this point.

Watching their police fidget in their riot gear, hands in pockets and moving all higledepigle towards the crowds with the occasional shout of “get back” left me with a sense of patriotic pride in the TSG...  One of the female police officers in riot gear had a pony tail hanging half way down her back; I’m no expert in rioting but I’ve seen small children fight and that seems like an obvious no-no...  I know training is to different standards over there but if this had been a proper angry mob their chance of defusing it without descending into total bloodshed seems pretty low.

 Mr Lopez 06 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

>  disrupting and over-running the houses of elected officials is not necessarily a felony

Give it a go once this man-flu business blows over and keep us posted how that works for you

 mondite 06 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

twitter has decided to start deleting his more inflammatory tweets rather than just attach warnings to them.

Some republican senators are caught between accepting that its gone to far and trying to deny any responsibility.

In reply to mondite:

my reaction to this was “this is crap cosplay for Logray the Ewok witchdoctor”


In reply to Blue Straggler:

Imagine my surprise upon checking up on this and finding that even the STANCE and the bearing of a standard, is nearly identical!


 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> >  disrupting and over-running the houses of elected officials is not necessarily a felony

> Give it a go once this man-flu business blows over and keep us posted how that works for you

I don't have a horse in this race aside from democratic process. I don't agree with these protesters ideology, but I disagree a lot more with the precedent of mass-criminalizing political action.

13
 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> my reaction to this was “this is crap cosplay for Logray the Ewok witchdoctor”

Poor bloke was clearly trying for Ragnar Lothbrok but ended up as Mr. Tumnus.

 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

>  I don't agree with these protesters ideology, but I disagree a lot more with the precedent of mass-criminalizing political action.

Sorry but this misses the point entirely. If they had stuck to hanging around listening to the orange buffoon in the park then fine but invading the government building whilst the next president is being elected isnt politial action its sedition.

1
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> No the Capital building is as important as the white house. The legislative branch is as important as the head of the executive.

Two separate things. Yes the branches are as important, but they are protected from unrest in different ways including the locations. Overrunning the office of the Head of State would be a coup, this is not a that. A coup would entail a handing of power to an emergency convention that includes the military. This, like him or hate him, hasn't compromised the office of the Head of State, who is tweeting as usual like a moron from somewhere comfortable.

Give it two weeks though. 

13
In reply to wintertree:

I would have been interested in the reaction of the CRS to this scenario.

 Jmacquarrie 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> This, like him or hate him, hasn't compromised the office of the Head of State, who is tweeting as usual like a moron from somewhere comfortable.

Not for the next 12 hours he's not, Twitter have just temporarily locked his account.

Post edited at 00:13
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

I hope he is Tweeting anyway via some sort of dead simple trickery that makes him think he’s posting to Twitter when he’s not 

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Sorry but this misses the point entirely. If they had stuck to hanging around listening to the orange buffoon in the park then fine but invading the government building whilst the next president is being elected isnt politial action its sedition.

Sedition sure, but it's civil disobedience not a revolution. A faction has disrupted public political process, not overthrown democracy. If it escalates past the inauguration, yes there's a bigger game at play, likewise if it begins to involve acts of actual insurrection. But right now it's not a threat to the Constitution of the Republic, though the best way to make it one is to make everyone there a criminal revolutionary like the Iranians did.

2
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> Not for the next 12 hours he's not, Twitter have just temporarily locked his account.

Hmmm, the plot thickens. I suppose now we get the moment OAN and Alex Jones have been praying for.

I'm running out of popcorn.

2
 jkarran 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

The chickens predictably come home to roost.

What a mess, the lot of them should be tried for insurrection, make an example of every last fool dragged from that building. The line between legitimate protest and terrorism needs to be firmly drawn. Those among the republican elite who've indulged and amplified Trump's delusions should be considering their resignation speeches tonight, right after they've sworn in Mike Pence.

jk

1
In reply to mondite:

note the token nod to mountaineering (plus sheepskin from Skye for the full “Trump luvs Scotland” effect)


In reply to waitout:

> Overrunning the office of the Head of State would be a coup,

I think that would probably just count as a green violation. They might get away with it if they stuck to the fairway or the rough...

Post edited at 00:40
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>Can't wait to hear Sam Harris retract his bullshit on the topic. 

I don't think you should hold your breath waiting for that.

jcm

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> What a mess, the lot of them should be tried for insurrection, make an example of every last fool dragged from that building. The line between legitimate protest and terrorism needs to be firmly drawn. Those among the republican elite who've indulged and amplified Trump's delusions should be considering their resignation speeches tonight, right after they've sworn in Mike Pence.

Be careful what you wish for.

The definitions of protest, insurrection, civil disobedience, criminal behavior and terrorism have been drawn, quite thoroughly, for quite some time. Now is the time to apply them to the letter, not let them get blurred. As much as I hate Trump, he's not worth adulterating democratic process over, nor are these Proud Boy assholes who are using this for agenda plays beyond who is President.

Yes the Republican elite who have abetted this should be held accountable, ideally by the Republican party itself. Though I'd put Pence firmly in that category and be handing leadership to Pelosi. Pence can't be trusted to do this right now any more than he could have over the last four years. He's as complicit as Trump is.

4
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Would be an opportune moment to invoke Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whilst Congress is stilled shocked and pussed off..,

Congress can't do that, surely, only the VP?

I'm surprised at the degree of hand-wringing about this. It seemed obvious to me this was the idea, to try and stop the process. It was less obvous that law enforcement would let it happen, but after all, if there is only one fatality as seems likely, overall that will bequite a good result.

Let's not forget that in Bush-v-Gore the Republicans actually paid armed gangs to turn up and try to stop the recount in various parts of Florida, ultimately successfully. They really don't like it when they get outvoted. Listening to McConnell's absurd lies about how the Democrats had done similar things in the past was pretty stomach-turning, even while he was knocking Trump.

jcm

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > Overrunning the office of the Head of State would be a coup,

> I think that would probably just count as a green violation. They might get away with it if they stuck to the fairway or the rough...

Ha, very good. There's a Washington Post cartoon in that if you broker it right.

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Congress can't do that, surely, only the VP?

> I'm surprised at the degree of hand-wringing about this. It seemed obvious to me this was the idea, to try and stop the process. It was less obvous that law enforcement would let it happen, but after all, if there is only one fatality as seems likely, overall that will bequite a good result.

> Let's not forget that in Bush-v-Gore the Republicans actually paid armed gangs to turn up and try to stop the recount in various parts of Florida, ultimately successfully. They really don't like it when they get outvoted. Listening to McConnell's absurd lies about how the Democrats had done similar things in the past was pretty stomach-turning, even while he was knocking Trump.

Good post.

Presumably, as a joint invocation, Congress could invoke it if the VP failed to make his position known. 

Your point about the flaccid security response is interesting, this obviously being on the cards as a possibility. That said, it's 'the people' overrunning 'the people's' institution, so the place needs protection without being deemed apart from the democratic process which to varying degree does include protest.

And yes, Republicans have a poor record on this sort of thing, especially so when it comes to labelling people patriots, terrorists, threats to the state and such. Watching McConnell has been horrible, but so was seeing Cheney and Rumsfeld sign on to removing military involvement after all they did 20 years ago.

These are times for clarity of process, not letting the media call the game.

1
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Given that Trump has been winding his gun-toting lunatic followers for the last two months, this action wasnt that unexpected

Oh, look...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/the_pub/trumps_latest_flailing_throes-729570?v=1#x9370191

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Congress can't do that, surely, only the VP?

VP has to invoke it, but it has to be supported; VP can't do it unilaterally (naturally). 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Pence was pretty critical of Trump today. He was in Congress today, presiding over the ratification proceedings. 

Post edited at 01:13
 Timmd 07 Jan 2021
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Congress can't do that, surely, only the VP?

> I'm surprised at the degree of hand-wringing about this. It seemed obvious to me this was the idea, to try and stop the process. It was less obvous that law enforcement would let it happen, but after all, if there is only one fatality as seems likely, overall that will bequite a good result.

> Let's not forget that in Bush-v-Gore the Republicans actually paid armed gangs to turn up and try to stop the recount in various parts of Florida, ultimately successfully. They really don't like it when they get outvoted. Listening to McConnell's absurd lies about how the Democrats had done similar things in the past was pretty stomach-turning, even while he was knocking Trump.

> jcm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f437y6UVjD8&

I didn't catch who it was, but I found the talk along the lines of 'There's been wrong things said by both sides over the past 5 years' rather much too. Bush (Jnr?) and a few others have called it an insurrection, and now Trump is being blamed for the chaos by one of those standing to speak at the start of them reconvening to confirm Trump's loss of the presidency and see in his successor Biden. 

Post edited at 01:28
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia: 

> Pence was pretty critical of Trump today. He was in Congress today, presiding over the ratification proceedings. 

An issue here is Pence going far enough off script so Trump ditches him for another VP even more compliant to the end who won't risk invoking the 25th. Sounds too Hollywood until one recalls Agnew/Nixon/Ford....

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

It'd be weird if it was Bush Snr.

Hijinks aside, Bush chiming in with calls of insurrection is a significant matter as it has criminal implications beyond sedition, rebellion etc and he's a respected enough figure establishment may fall behind. Still unhealthy, but if it brings some authority to this it's better than the memes that taken hold.

 Timmd 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> It'd be weird if it was Bush Snr.

Having googled, ha - yes it would be, but rather cool in a spooky way, it could send Trump over the edge.

> Hijinks aside, Bush chiming in with calls of insurrection is a significant matter as it has criminal implications beyond sedition, rebellion etc and he's a respected enough figure establishment may fall behind. Still unhealthy, but if it brings some authority to this it's better than the memes that taken hold.

I've sometimes thought if people who don't like each other agree on something, or have different politics do, it's more probably true, it seems a bit like that in weight when Republican ex presidents condemn it.

Post edited at 01:54
In reply to waitout:

Trump can't just 'ditch' his VP, surely?

jcm

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> Having googled, ha - yes it would be, but rather cool in a spooky way, it could send Trump over the edge.

Bring it on I say. Dear lord we could do with the input from those who actually saw what real coups and insurrections were during the fall of communism, as debatable as Bush Snr's legacy is, he knew this stuff first hand unlike the twankers that make up leadership these days. God I feel old....

> I've sometimes thought if people who don't like each other agree, or have different politics do, it's probably true, it seems a little bit like that in weight.

I think that too. I have a working career that chews at the edges of this stuff, have witnessed first hand the unrest that goes with similar events, and what you say goes back to the Han dynasty at least. These days it's usually just boring old bipartisanship. True maybe not, but true enough.

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Trump can't just 'ditch' his VP, surely?

Looking about it's hard to say. Directly perhaps no, but a motivated Congress could make it the better of some dubious options for Pence to take. One needn't remove the position, just the monkey occupying it.

Wasn't that much what Agnew did? Felt it best to remove himself on suggestion from Nixon so a more amicable Ford could take over or something?

 Timmd 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

''Chuffin 'ell'', as the saying goes, Romney has just said that they were all sitting there (ie late at night) due to a losing man's injured pride. It's time I went to bed, but this has been riveting, you can't get much blunter than that (he's not known for his lefty leanings). 

Post edited at 02:41
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> ''Chuffin 'ell'', as the saying goes, Romney has just said that they were all sitting there (ie late at night) due to a losing man's injured pride. It's time I went to bed, but this has been riveting, you can't get much blunter than that (he's not known for his lefty leanings).

Don't go to bed, this is history and worth watching.

Good call re Romney, we live a time when when he is among the best the Republican's have. And Biden's the best from the other team. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Trump can't just 'ditch' his VP, surely?

> jcm

No, he's elected, he appointed by the people. It's like Trump can't 'fire' a senator. 

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Here's a weird thing; I've just been talking with some MAGA nuts who are there right now and they're going on about the overrunning being about grabbing hard drives and data to show the election was a scam. They're talking about how many drives they got out and starting to go through them etc.

Seems down in the camp it's all pseudo-military stuff. These guys are going on about tactics the security are using and the sort of body armor they have etc. They refer to the enemy as communism.

 deacondeacon 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I don't think it's a bad thing. 

Really? There's four dead. 

1
 John2 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

'If only Postman Pat was here to tell us that BLM and Critical Race Theory are the threats to democracy we should be on our guard against! '

Well I'm here to tell you that I don't see an enormous difference between Trump's supporters claiming that the election was rigged and all the people on here claiming that this country never really voted to leave the EU. Obviously the people on here never incited violence, but their refusal to admit that a democratic process took place is very reminiscent of the behaviour of Trump and co.

44
In reply to John2:

> Well I'm here to tell you that I don't see an enormous difference between Trump's supporters claiming that the election was rigged and all the people on here claiming that this country never really voted to leave the EU. Obviously the people on here never incited violence, but their refusal to admit that a democratic process took place is very reminiscent of the behaviour of Trump and co.

I think the difference is that Trump's supporters claim the election was rigged (that he in fact won the election), whereas people here accept that the referendum was lost but claim that the leave campaign was based on misinformation and lies. They are not the same thing.

Post edited at 07:05
1
 kamala 07 Jan 2021
In reply to anyone interested:

First impressions from the most impressive historian I know of - Heather Cox Richardson. As she acknowledges, she hasn't all the information yet but does have some sources closer to the action. I'm certain that her summary, once she feels she does have sufficient facts, will be well informed, clear sighted and objective (which, in case it needs saying, doesn't mean that she thinks all sides are equally good).

https://www.facebook.com/heathercoxrichardson/videos/2543350895789478

Interesting fact she mentions: the physical electoral votes were actually in the room that was invaded. Amazingly in all the chaos and fear, a staffer remembered to retrieve them before being hustled out of the room to safety. Talk about presence of mind!

 Hat Dude 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

"They'll be bending a few frying pans in celebration at the Kremlin today"

(in my best Bill McLaren voice)

 cb294 07 Jan 2021
In reply to deacondeacon:

One fascist ex soldier who travelled from San Diego for a spot of rioting shot, three protesters squeezed to death or having heart attacks, Trump embarassed in front of the World, police systemic racism unambiguously proved ...

Yes, sounds like a good thing!

CB

2
 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

> Well I'm here to tell you that I don't see an enormous difference between Trump's supporters claiming that the election was rigged and all the people on here...

Oh the presidential election was rigged alright. Strenuous attempts at voter suppression for example. But it returned the result it did in spite of being rigged, not because of it.

Page one of the Trump playbook: accuse others of what you're doing yourself.

1
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> I would have been interested in the reaction of the CRS to this scenario.

Yes, would have been worth staying up late for them.  Curfew enforced by arrest, or possibly endless requests to disperse...

 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

So... the morning after (in the U.K. anyhow).  The VP has been making decisions without trump but in consultation with other key departments and people.  Twitter and Facebook have deplatformed the president (I imagine Coel or perhaps Renton will be along with some faux outrage soon enough).  The entire media have turned on trump.

What next?  It seems there’s no choice but to start the formal process to remove him from power.

Then he and his secret service people have to come out of the whitehouse.   I’m going to need more screens.

2
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> They got in far far too easily, there is no way the security services didn't suspect this might happen.

> If you really don't want anybody getting into your government buildings you'll stop them. Somebody making decisions somewhere made sure they were under prepared.

The ex head of the CIA is saying just this on Radio4

 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> ''Chuffin 'ell'', as the saying goes, Romney has just said that they were all sitting there (ie late at night) due to a losing man's injured pride.


That shouldn't surprise you.

I'm no fan of Mitt Romney but throughout Trump's entire presidency he's been one of very few republicans to show a little backbone regarding Trump, and arguably one of very few who can criticise him now without being guilty of egregious hypocrisy.

 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> The ex head of the CIA is saying just this on Radio4

Then you have to ask why the organisers did this.  Sounds like they left a couple of pipe bombs behind whilst the mostly harmless, unarmed and unprepared crowd wandered around confusing things, but what else did they leave or take during the early part of the intrusion?

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Hat Dude:

> "They'll be bending a few frying pans in celebration at the Kremlin today"

> (in my best Bill McLaren voice)

That reminds me I saw Uri Geller get his covid shot yesterday and bent a spoon at the same time.

Nothing more.

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Then you have to ask why the organisers did this.  Sounds like they left a couple of pipe bombs behind whilst the mostly harmless, unarmed and unprepared crowd wandered around confusing things, but what else did they leave or take during the early part of the intrusion?

As reported up post, I was talking with some people involved in the overrun and they were after hard drives. They got some but as yet weren't sure how many they got out of the building.

2
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> As reported up post, I was talking with some people involved in the overrun and they were after hard drives. They got some but as yet weren't sure how many they got out of the building.

No, they’re the idiots being used to cover a very small number of actual smart people if there was any such intent.  Ripping hard drives out of computers is going to give them absolutely nothing important for obvious reasons.

 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> Your point about the flaccid security response is interesting, this obviously being on the cards as a possibility. That said, it's 'the people' overrunning 'the people's' institution, so the place needs protection without being deemed apart from the democratic process which to varying degree does include protest.

Oh right. And that would explain the similarly "light touch" policing around the Capitol building during the BLM protests back in the summer would it?

1
 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Oh the presidential election was rigged alright. Strenuous attempts at voter suppression for example. But it returned the result it did in spite of being rigged, not because of it.

So at least one of the freshmen senators recently objected to the election results. So surely they should be refusing to take their own seat due to them being elected in a "rigged" election and demanding it is rerun.

 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to deacondeacon:

There's about half a million dead.. the deaths we've experienced are far higher than we should have seen because of the president.

I'm not sure of the other three, but of the lady shot, tough. She was part of an armed mob trying to get through to the 3rd ranked leader of the US.

1
 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

> 'If only Postman Pat was here to tell us that BLM and Critical Race Theory are the threats to democracy we should be on our guard against! '

> Well I'm here to tell you that I don't see an enormous difference between Trump's supporters claiming that the election was rigged and all the people on here claiming that this country never really voted to leave the EU. Obviously the people on here never incited violence, but their refusal to admit that a democratic process took place is very reminiscent of the behaviour of Trump and co.

That makes no sense even for you. Arguing and debating is fine. No democratic decision is final. How is that in anyway comparable to a violent uprising? That may be the most stupid post on this topic.

 Duncan Bourne 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

Yup! That's my point. If Trump isn't defusing his supporters in any meaningful way and a large block of people are being told they were cheated in an election then history shows armed conflict follows. Hilter is perhaps a little extreme (though early days) but it certainly bears comparison with some third world "democracy" where the incumbant arrests, manipulates or fights until they get the result they want

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Oh right. And that would explain the similarly "light touch" policing around the Capitol building during the BLM protests back in the summer would it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but happy to engage if you clarify.

4
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but happy to engage if you clarify.

You clearly do get at it.

Overwhelming national guard presence for BLM protest.

Oddly weak security coverage for long organised protests with clearly worded incitements by a largely white, male group.

Crowds breached security on the Capitol and almost directly threatened some of the highest people in government, 4 dead and it sounds like only 1 as a direct result of police action.

The people who have suffered police violence at various protests, when protesting for their rights, and who then watched the mostly gentle dispersion of a seditious crowd from one of the holiest of holy sites of their democracy.  They’re going to be might thoughtful.

 Duncan Bourne 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

I was thinking of this and the democratic process and the analogy I came up with was one of where I used to work.

You had some who were condescending to the workers and that riled them up and made them feel they weren't being understood. (Clinton)

Then along comes someone who tells them what they want to hear that all bosses are tw*ts and they should tell them where to get off (Trump)

What worked best was when you had someone who understood the workers but got them to focus on what it was they really wanted and wasn't afraid to calm down their more extreme views. The trouble is once you get everyone fired up it is hard to calm them down again

 GrahamD 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

I don't think anyone here is disputing the actual numerical result of an advisory Brexit referendum,  are they ?

 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Anyone fancy a go at defending the motion "US law enforcement is not systematically racist" in light of this latest evidence? Can't wait to hear Sam Harris retract his bullshit on the topic. 

Really?  There were night after night of protests and occupations following George Floyd's death.  It went on for months.  Widespread looting, a murder rate that went through the roof.  For the most part the police stood by and did nothing. And much of the media also stood by, either cheering it as a justified insurrection or "Fiery, but otherwise peaceful protest". 

If you're surprised that people on the other side also see looting and chaos as a justified solution and something they can get away with then you have been blind to what has unfolded for the last 6 months.  You can't dismiss nightly Antifa riots as 'just an idea' and not expect others to see this as license to do the same.

Sam Harris has been unequivocal in his criticism of Trump, to the point of derangement. There is zero need for him to change his stance on the police and racism.  He's 100% correct.

12
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> You clearly do get at it.

> Overwhelming national guard presence for BLM protest.

> Oddly weak security coverage for long organised protests with clearly worded incitements by a largely white, male group.

> Crowds breached security on the Capitol and almost directly threatened some of the highest people in government, 4 dead and it sounds like only 1 as a direct result of police action.

> The people who have suffered police violence at various protests, when protesting for their rights, and who then watched the mostly gentle dispersion of a seditious crowd from one of the holiest of holy sites of their democracy.  They’re going to be might thoughtful.

So it's meant to mean I'm denying the racist element to the security response? Not sure where that came from.

I assume that unless there's some kind of conspiracy then the multiple security forces that guard these places are incompetent, being restrained at a high chain of command, are complicit with the MAGA crowd or a mix of the lot.

I assume things began as a legal protest on state ground and turned bad. I've communicated with some MAGA nuts there who believe this is all going to plan and the usual 'good, hardworking people' are present, not a view I share, I don't support them. 

I'd not be surprised if the security element is smaller than the BLM stuff, that was a planned face off between rival groups with rumors of heavy hitters going around. This is nasty, but a single front and looks like smaller crowds on the telly.

Of course the US cops are racist, no denying that.

Post edited at 08:40
In reply to wintertree:

Quite a contrast with the show of force when Trump needed a photo op outside a church. 

Just hope the anti-fascists don't feel they need to get involved. Just let the trumpers self combust. 

 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> The people who have suffered police violence at various protests, when protesting for their rights, and who then watched the mostly gentle dispersion of a seditious crowd from one of the holiest of holy sites of their democracy.  They’re going to be might thoughtful.

You're an intelligent guy.  I suggest you widen your sources of information a bit outside of the footage shown on the BBC or CNN about the protests and occupations.  There's hours of it.  Police standing by, doing nothing, while buildings burn and they are pelted with rocks, fire-crackers and Molotov cocktails.  It went on for months. 

Yes, you can certainly find examples where individual officers lost it.  With poor training, simple numbers and the endless pressure of holding the line night after night, being sworn at and spat at, combined with the inevitable arseholes who find their way into police forces that shouldn't really be a surprise.  But for the most part, the US policing has been surprisingly restrained throughout.  That has continued.  It is telling that in one night there was one person already killed by police during these riots.  How many dead would that have been if looters across the country in the previous 6 months had been shot nightly?

19
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Quite a contrast with the show of force when Trump needed a photo op outside a church. 

Yup.

> Just hope the anti-fascists don't feel they need to get involved. Just let the trumpers self combust. 

Indeed.  I hope they’ll be taking a pause for thought.

 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

> It is telling that in one night there was one person already killed by police during these riots.

They were directly threatening top level elected officials.  The risk they posted to the state is orders of magnitude above protesting or even normal rioting.

It is telling that you try to draw a false equivalence.

2
 Mr Lopez 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

That's a moot point in light of the latest developments. Cat is out the bag that the rioters were in fact blm and antifa in disguise wearing maga hats and presumably undergoing a more sophisticated treatment than Michael Jackson had.

It's all over twitter so it must be true. 

 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Mr Lopez:

That explains the global talc shortage!  False flag!  

Really it seemed like a not very large crowd of largely pathetic and somewhat delusional individuals with no real organisation (beyond some core), no preparation or expectation and no clue.  Quite fitting for trump but all the more disbelieving that it wasn’t stopped.

1
 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

> You're an intelligent guy.  I suggest you widen your sources of information a bit outside of the footage shown on the BBC or CNN about the protests and occupations. 

BINGO we have the whining about the MSM. Slightly concealed but still the normal claim to superiority.

> It is telling that in one night there was one person already killed by police during these riots. 

No it is not telling at all. They attacked a building containing a whole bunch of politicians some of which had their own protective details.  There is a report that it was one of Pences bodyguards who shot them whilst they were trying to evacuate him somewhere safe. 

If the police had done their job properly and maybe put the same effort into keeping the seditous mob out of the capitol as they had when helping the orange buffoon have a photo opportunity outside a church then maybe they wouldnt have needed to shoot someone.

Just imagine the bodycount if the BLM protests had invaded the white house.

2
 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Mr Lopez:

> That's a moot point in light of the latest developments. Cat is out the bag that the rioters were in fact blm and antifa in disguise wearing maga hats and presumably undergoing a more sophisticated treatment than Michael Jackson had.

> It's all over twitter so it must be true. 

This is incredible to see. Even a GOP congressman is on the floor saying this.

 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> > It is telling that in one night there was one person already killed by police during these riots.

> They were directly threatening top level elected officials.  The risk they posted to the state is orders of magnitude above protesting or even normal rioting.

You obviously missed the footage from months back of GOP senators being assaulted as they tried to cross the street.  Again, this has been going on for months.  But, unsurprising, unreported.  Only one narrative has been presented in much of the media.

And no, while getting in to an office such as this is a serious offence, I don't place a small bunch of lunatics in the same league as continuous looting, burning, assault and murder.  "Fiery but mostly peaceful", "Fiery but mostly peaceful".

> It is telling that you try to draw a false equivalence.

From where I stand, it looks like you are flipping the equivalence, quiet while harm to individuals, homes and small business are trashed daily for months, but only voicing objections when the other side begin to embark on the same.

14
 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> BINGO we have the whining about the MSM. Slightly concealed but still the normal claim to superiority.

No, it is a complaint about the MSM. Events of similar magnitude reported entirely differently. Death, harm and wanton destruction caused by one group reported as justified and understandable. One night of chaos from another, much smaller group, and the sky has fallen.

> Just imagine the bodycount if the BLM protests had invaded the white house.

Zero?

18
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> This is incredible to see. Even a GOP congressman is on the floor saying this.

A republican congressman but not Renton Cooke, who is banging on about MSM like the toxic morons who incited last night’s madness.

3
 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

Biden has been certified, and Trump says in a statement tweeted by his social media director “Even though I totally disagree with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th.”. 

No doubt he will protest this for years to come, just as the Democrats have been doing since Trump was elected, and as Republicans dis since Obama was elected, and as Demcrats did since Bush was elected...

But most of what I'm seeing in the MSM is that this is a coup, and that these riots are in some way much more terrible than the ones that have taken place for half of last year.

27
 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

> You obviously missed the footage from months back of GOP senators being assaulted as they tried to cross the street.

Yes I think people missed it because it didnt happen. Rand Paul claimed to have been assaulted but it wasnt supported by the video evidence which simply showed a crowd, in a street, shouting but absolute no assault.

> Again, this has been going on for months.  But, unsurprising, unreported.  Only one narrative has been presented in much of the media.

No it was heavily reported including initially his lies about being assaulted. It then disappeared when it became obvious that he hadnt been.

However the credulous idiots who only read the hard right shite wouldnt have caught up with this.

1
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone so detached from reality.

Look at the international reaction to this vs BLM.  Look at how this will be used for pro-dictatorship propaganda vs BLM.  Look how close this came to killing #3 in the command chain vs BLM.

You and your twisting of every world event to drive your libertarian hobby horse disgust me.  There was another poster who did this with Covid before their ban.  That disgusted me to.  To waste their position on a circle jerk on free speech when they should have recognised the key risks of not controlling the virus - including mutation - as I did with them in a conversation in March.  Blinded by their ideology they shaped the conversation to questioning if it was worth it without identifying and including the actual risks, as I did.  Sickening and intellectually dishonest of them to not take the time to use their academic background and position to identify the risks, omitting those least compatible with their libertarian questioning.

Post edited at 09:26
7
In reply to RentonCooke:

> No, it is a complaint about the MSM.

Are you guys still texting?  You should catch up with WhatApp and stuff.

 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

I think you need to calm down a little.  Not everything that opposes your viewpoint is intellectually dishonest, disgusting, libertarian or some ulterior motive.

14
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

> I think you need to calm down a little.  Not everything that opposes your viewpoint is intellectually dishonest, disgusting, libertarian or some ulterior motive.

I'm perfectly calm.  

I was also disgusted to see a physical sciences academic jumping on Covid so early on to push their usual libertarian hobby horse without taking the time to understand the risks that they were basing their argument on.   Foolish and shameful IMO.

A highly privileged career funded in pursuit of evidence driven discovery for the benefit of all.  All that training, learning and experience perverted into a wilfully Ill informed mis-shaping of the public debate based on their personal, political ideology.

Still, I don’t know why I’m banging on about that to you.

Post edited at 10:48
2
 Tyler 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> As reported up post, I was talking with some people involved in the overrun and they were after hard drives. They got some but as yet weren't sure how many they got out of the building.

I’d be very wary giving any credence to this sort of thing as it opens the door to these being able to say they have found evidence. The reasons why this would not be true are to many to go into detail here but in brief:

anything to do with counting of votes a will not be stored here

they will not have got into the data room

hard disk encryption 
These morons have watched a few to many films and you are propagating their myths as truths. 

 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Tyler:

Footage just out of the hard drive raid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2uHBhKTSe0&

 RentonCooke 07 Jan 2021
In reply to wintertree:

Are you really aiming that at me?  I'm surprised at the degree to which you cannot consider a vote for Trump, and presumably also a vote for Brexit/Tory, or simply a position opposite to your own, might be perfectly valid choices for so many people. 

Or that 6 months of (anywhere from tolerated to celebrated) riots, looting, occupation, not to mention assault and homicide, might have an utterly caustic effect, make the idea of storming the capitol building in response to perceived injustice seem a reasonable response, and only require one person out of every hundred-thousand to feel this strongly for the events of yesterday to pretty much be assured of taking place?  You complain about the enabling effect of criticism of covid restrictions but don't seem to apply that same rationale to the scenes that have played out in full technicolour and sound to millions of Americans since May, while in some cases being sold to them by politicians and reporters as peaceful or evidence of a "summer of love". 

That trying to point this out to you elicits 'disgust' is interesting. If you are surprised not enough people out there take your covid predictions seriously, it may be worth considering the opinions they come packaged with and that this has an impact on the wider message. 

22
 wintertree 07 Jan 2021
In reply to RentonCooke:

Go tell it to someone who cares.  Don’t seem to be many of them here.  I believe I’ve made my view on the closely aligned opinions you and Coel seem to share abundantly clear.

> interesting. If you are surprised not enough people out there take your covid predictions seriously, it may be worth considering the opinions they come packaged with and that this has an impact on the wider message. 

Yes, I’m the problem.  I have a lot of private mail from readers here, and people who have been sent my outputs under my professional identity to know that I have made a positive difference to people.

You and your disgusting like hijacking - for your libertarian ends - a clear public health crisis that could be tackled with a hundred year old manual on epidemics are the problem.  You create a hostile environment for evidence driven thinking, and then you blame those people you’ve encircled with your toxic filth.

Many of those who were desperate for a solution and were drawn in do not see through this.  I do.  I see right through you.

Post edited at 11:32
3
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> I’d be very wary giving any credence to this sort of thing as it opens the door to these being able to say they have found evidence. The reasons why this would not be true are to many to go into detail here but in brief:

> anything to do with counting of votes a will not be stored here

> they will not have got into the data room

> hard disk encryption 

> These morons have watched a few to many films and you are propagating their myths as truths. 

You make good points.

I was pointing out some scuttlebutt from the mob to make a point about their perceived agenda, not presenting it as any truth, but yes it can become propaganda for sure. The mythology around all this is already in exponential growth, on all sides.

4
In reply to RentonCooke:

>just as the Democrats have been doing since Trump was elected,

This is particularly extraordinary nonsense, unless you mean the complaints about Russian interference which were found to be true by a Republican-led committee of the senate.

jcm

In reply to RentonCooke:

> No, it is a complaint about the MSM. Events of similar magnitude reported entirely differently. Death, harm and wanton destruction caused by one group reported as justified and understandable. One night of chaos from another, much smaller group, and the sky has fallen.

It's quite funny that you don't understand the significance of the events!

 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Some people seem quite certain about the significance.

https://twitter.com/holmescnn/status/1346987917273608194

 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> >just as the Democrats have been doing since Trump was elected,

> This is particularly extraordinary nonsense, unless you mean the complaints about Russian interference which were found to be true by a Republican-led committee of the senate.

> jcm

And the Dems followed legal process. As Trump did until yesterday. There's nothing wrong with contesting elections in the courts but they were constantly rejected by the courts, like impeachment failed. 

In reply to Timmd:

Bush gets on great with all of the other living ex-Presidents, particularly Obama. They just don’t agree on policy. He hates Trump.

That does not make what he is saying untrue, but it’s not coming from someone who is antagonistic to the Democrats or Biden (particularly Biden).

 jkarran 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> I assume things began as a legal protest on state ground and turned bad. I've communicated with some MAGA nuts there who believe this is all going to plan and the usual 'good, hardworking people' are present, not a view I share, I don't support them. 

In what context/capacity are you communicating with the people who invaded the capitol building?

jk

 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

>

> I assume things began as a legal protest on state ground and turned bad. I've communicated with some MAGA nuts there who believe this is all going to plan and the usual 'good, hardworking people' are present, not a view I share, I don't support them. 

This is what I think happened. I dont think they wanted to get inside and looked shocked to be wandering the hallways of the capitol.

I don't doubt there were some intent on very serious trouble, hence the pipe bombs, but I think most just wanted to vent, shout and basically be trouble causing protestors. Have a toy revolution.

Look at the video of the girl crying for being maced for storming the capitol, there was a total lack of understanding just how serious it was what happened.

Post edited at 13:34
In reply to wintertree:

> Congressman Susan Wild was just giving an interview from their safe location.  Circa 400 people crammed in, no social distancing, many new republican “freshmen” refused the masks they were offered putting all - especially older members - at more risk.  Insanity.  I hope they are all named.

Even after this:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/30/luke-letlow-us-congressman-elect-dies-of-covid-aged-41

 Tyler 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> You make good points.

> I was pointing out some scuttlebutt from the mob to make a point about their perceived agenda, not presenting it as any truth, but yes it can become propaganda for sure. The mythology around all this is already in exponential growth, on all sides.

Tell me more about this both sides thing, it’s a phrase I’ve been hearing a lot. On the one hand we have a campaign who say there has been voter fraud, when there categorically has not, followed by a storming of the capital while law enforcement largely stood aside when there has not and on the other side....?

Post edited at 14:16
In reply to RentonCooke:

Shove off back to Fascistland Renton Cooke. 

2
In reply to jkarran:

I am asking the same question.

Waitout, are you in Washington or communicating with the insurrectionists on social media... or what?

 AllanMac 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

And so it continues (again). The rapid descent of the right from a legitimate political ideology into an induced medical condition, incubated by a narcissistic nutjob in his own image. Individually piteous, collectively downright dangerous.

 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to AllanMac:

> And so it continues (again). The rapid descent of the right from a legitimate political ideology into an induced medical condition, incubated by a narcissistic nutjob in his own image. Individually piteous, collectively downright dangerous.

Here its being reframed as an ANTIFA led protest. The Trump supporters were just outside.

 Harry Jarvis 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Look at the video of the girl crying for being maced for storming the capitol, there was a total lack of understanding just how serious it was what happened.

It rather makes you wonder what she expected to happen. Still, if it encourages he to think about the potential consequences of her actions before undertaking them, that may not be a bad thing.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Here its being reframed as an ANTIFA led protest. The Trump supporters were just outside.

Surely no one is falling for that? 

 Jmacquarrie 07 Jan 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

I have seen a post claiming fascist ANTIFA orchestrated it which was hilarious.

It was from a congressman from Alabama.

 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> I have seen a post claiming fascist ANTIFA orchestrated it which was hilarious.

Your name is suspiciously close to jamiroquai. I think you are trying to confuse matters now the police are on your tail.

 Cobra_Head 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

As sad and bewildering as all this is, what's worse is the people the REALLY believe what Trumpton is saying. He should be made to produce SOME evidence, or go to jail, the orange bastard!

1
 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

Matt gaetz was on the floor of congress saying this. Yeah they believe it. I think you can access this for free

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/news/533088-conservatives-blame-antifa-not-Trump-for-violence-at-capitol%3famp

Post edited at 17:04
 mbh 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> As sad and bewildering as all this is, what's worse is the people the REALLY believe what Trumpton is saying. 

Yes I often think this too. Without believers, he is nothing. Yet he does not seem to need to present any evidence for his wildest claims and still millions of people vote or willingly form a mob for him.

Is it just social media echo chambers that enable this? Or were we always this susceptible to it. I suspect the latter, but that the networks now hugely amplify the effects, making them so much more dangerous.

I have been wondering about where I stand with absolute free speech nowadays, given, say,  that some rich celebrity twerp with huge network reach but not necessarily any scruples might choose to say any old malevolent gibberish.

Post edited at 17:28
1
 John2 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mbh:

This is the real problem in wealthy western nations, isn't it? The poor have been neglected by the political elite for decades, and are overjoyed to find a politician like Trump who purports to speak for them. In the States social security and healthcare are very limited for the poor. If you look a the Supertopo forums there regularly appear appeals for well-known climbers who have been involved in a climbing or car accident and cannot afford proper medical care.

This is why Trump gets his supporters - it's ludicrous, because he did his best to sabotage Obama's Affordable Care Act. A cheap to produce drug like insulin is sold for up to $300 a vial in the States, so diabetics die or have limbs amputated in order to support the huge profits of the drug companies.

Trumps' opponent in the 2016 election was Hilary Clinton, who described the people who voted for him as 'the deplorables'. I wonder why they didn't vote for her.

4
 fred99 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

> Trumps' opponent in the 2016 election was Hilary Clinton, who described the people who voted for him as 'the deplorables'. I wonder why they didn't vote for her.

Having watched the news on TV last night and again today, I would deign to suggest that "the deplorables" is overly polite for some of his followers.

In reply to waitout:

> That reminds me I saw Uri Geller get his covid shot yesterday and bent a spoon at the same time.

If Uri was injected with something cooked up on a bent spoon it wasn't vaccine!

 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Your name is suspiciously close to jamiroquai. I think you are trying to confuse matters now the police are on your tail.

Hmm..  'Jake Angeli' --> 'Jake A' --> 'Jay Kay'.  You could be onto something!

#bigtinfoilhatwithhornson

 Jmacquarrie 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

I've been rumbled!

I'd best stick the Ewok cosplay bikini on eBay quick.

Post edited at 17:48
 Roadrunner6 07 Jan 2021
In reply to John2:

Yeah she was totally wrong. The guy walking around with a Camp Auschwitz top on. Great guy. Salt of the earth..

 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> I have seen a post claiming fascist ANTIFA orchestrated it which was hilarious.
> It was from a congressman from Alabama.

Regarding this bit.. 
(And assuming this isn't all some sort of clever double bluff as mondite suggests and it wasn't you.)

Presumably the congressman from Alabama, and everyone else in Congress, will be wanting the people who were politely ushered out of the building and allowed to just wander away to be belatedly arrested asap.  So it shouldn't be long before we start to find out who they are.

If the Jamiroquai guy is actually antifa*, he's been playing a really impressive long game establishing his cover as an alt-right QAnon character for at least the last few years.

* - spoiler alert.  Of course he's not.  He's the fa that antifa are anti.

Post edited at 17:40
In reply to mondite:

> Some people seem quite certain about the significance.

Even funnier, as some people have pointed out on twitter, the opening frame seems to show an onion in her right hand, which she keeps rubbing near her eye...


 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> In what context/capacity are you communicating with the people who invaded the capitol building?

Sorry for the delay, sleeping.

I'm not in Washington. I know a few people there on several sides. The MAGA people I'm communicating with via a forum, not social media like FB etc. Not 4chan either, basically something very similar to this place but for the Defence Industry. You'd recognize many of the names.

There's a lot of posturing and big talk (did I mention it's like climbing ha ha) and whether any of the people I'm engaging with actually went into the buildings I don't know. It seems like you'd imagine, to be all about an in-crowd or several in-crowds competing over bravado. They all use stupid 'call sign' names like Baked Alaska etc. I think it's mostly bullshit and hype, but it is their mentality.

I've not been around football hooligans but I think it would be similar. People came for the drama of the protest and were egged-on as it got rowdy. There's agenda groups in there of course, but the people I'm hearing from are convinced they are unarmed, working class, middle aged, average Joe's who are the last bastion of democracy as if they are the survivors from Walking Dead. Deluded, but the scene could be chaotic enough they don't know what's going on. Of course they are not looking at the centre or left media we probably are that portrays them as hooligans. 

So, nothing special. Just interesting. As a wise man once said "All news is fake news".

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Ridge:

> If Uri was injected with something cooked up on a bent spoon it wasn't vaccine!

Ha yes. I swear I recall he died in the 90's, but not so.

 deepsoup 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> They all use stupid 'call sign' names like Baked Alaska etc. I think it's mostly bullshit and hype, but it is their mentality.

This "Baked Alaska" (aka Tim Gionet)?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55572805

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baked_Alaska_(activist)

Edit to add..
Wow:  https://www.dailydot.com/debug/baked-alaska-protest-covid/

Post edited at 19:51
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> I've been rumbled!

> I'd best stick the Ewok cosplay bikini on eBay quick.

Ewokini 

In reply to waitout:

thanks for that post, really interesting insight 

 Eric9Points 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

I thought this was a great post from Duncan Hothersall on Twitter.

It's really worth remembering how this works, at least - how people with guns storming the democratic seat of government wasn't how it started. It started with people quietly seeing just how far they could push things, normalising more and more of what was previously unthinkable.

It was cemented by attacks on the media to weaken their ability to hold power to account, and a concerted effort to undermine the trust between government and people in general, making it easier in the end to persuade them that even a clear, fair election result was a conspiracy.

It relentlessly exploited the gap between the spirit and the letter of the law, while arguing that if someone you don't like made a law then you didn't have to abide by it anyway. And it upended decency to the extent that political principle became seen as weakness and failure.

Only then do the people with guns arrive, when they think they've broken down enough of the barriers to their success that they could actually win that way. And they were almost right this time.

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> This "Baked Alaska" (aka Tim Gionet)?

> Edit to add..

I suppose it's either him or rumours that it's him. He seems to be the sort of scum sucking, attention seeking, bottom feeder who gets off on exploiting this sort of scenario once the dumb ones get it going. 

 Alan.rodger 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Eric9Points:

A Marxist analysis might suggest that we are witnessing an very angry underclass betrayed by corporate US making its as yet inarticulate but legitimate grievances known to government - democratic or republican.

Beware those guns. To me it resembled scenes from the Winter Palaceand the Bastille.

2
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> thanks for that post, really interesting insight 

Yes it's interesting to see the gap between the reporting and the stuff on the ground. More than usual I'm reminded of McLuhan's "the medium is the message".

In full disclosure my eternally suffering Phd includes a bit of this stuff, not the US but places where coups are the national sport and considered a viable part of politics along with assassination and compromised elections (I should be in Istanbul right now if it weren't for this f*cking virus), so I've a bit of an opportunity to compare things and this seems pretty tame. I know that won't win many likes because people have died - martyred to the QAnon idiots - but it's a very middle class situation from what I glean from the nit wits I hear from. They know if they push too far they will get fair trials and wealthy celebrity lawyers, real coups don't have that. They also know they can frame success however they want, again, real coups are much more binary - failure usually doesn't mean going back to work quietly on Monday.

I put much of this down to adventurism, dull people jumping on the most interesting bandwagon to pass through town. They get to travel to distant Washington and play out their paramilitary fantasies without the neighbours watching. Away from home they can pretend to be whatever they want and wear their Walmart plate carrier. Back home the story will grow - it already is because I'm hearing it - about how they 'stormed' the Capitol like it was the Iranian Embassy in Princes Gate. They take all comments from the left - and remember the left to these guys includes Fox News and Dick Cheney - as vindication of the fear and awe they are spreading.

These people really have nothing on the line, they are cowards. Worst case scenario some will get minor federal offences and Alex Jones will post their bail. The rest will toast their hollow efforts with cheap beer as both sides of the popular media treat them like revolutionaries. It reeks because there are real dissidents who have suffered real coups who think this shit is a joke. Once again because I think it matters I refer those interested to the writing of Naunihal Singh.

Anyway rant over, the coffee's wearing off.

1
 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to Eric9Points:

That's a good piece. Both the Fox crowd and the Guardian crowd will dislike it, which is probably a good sign.

3
In reply to waitout:

A superb summary - first world problems (are we allowed to say that anymore?). The barometer for its criticality is the stock market which didn't even notice. 

 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> That's a good piece. Both the Fox crowd and the Guardian crowd will dislike it, which is probably a good sign.


Why on earth would the "Guardian crowd" dislike it? Aside from the need to create false equivilences which seems to be rather trendy at the moment?

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to pneame:

> A superb summary - first world problems (are we allowed to say that anymore?). The barometer for its criticality is the stock market which didn't even notice. 

I'll take the rare bit of flattery, but I think your second sentence is more poignant than my fifty sentences are. A very good call.

 waitout 07 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Why on earth would the "Guardian crowd" dislike it? Aside from the need to create false equivilences which seems to be rather trendy at the moment?

Because the left-of-centre media keep wanting to validate all this by calling it a coup.

8
 mondite 07 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> Because the left-of-centre media keep wanting to validate all this by calling it a coup.


Wait what? You are seriously trying to claim the "left-of-centre media" are trying to "validate" it? What on earth do you mean by this aside from, again, trying to create false equivilence.

 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

Fox News (Brett Baier) were actually good tonight (News not Hannity and his ilk), they rubbished the Antifa link, pretty seriously talked about removing Trump from office.

However Pence has just said he won't support the 25th Amendment step.

Even Lindsay Graham has said he won't support it, unless Trump does more, but the option is on the table. 

I can't see him going, I can see Congress rushing through an impeachment just to get senators on record. But it sounds like he's agreed to go quietly in two weeks.

 waitout 08 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> Wait what? You are seriously trying to claim the "left-of-centre media" are trying to "validate" it? What on earth do you mean by this aside from, again, trying to create false equivilence.

The left side of media, the right side of media, all sides of media, are seeking to validate their perspectives on the events. To the left this is getting called a coup, to the right this is being labelled a revolution. These are traditions within journalism that go back a century.

In context with my single sentence that was itself in context with that quoted piece, the various sides of media will each have things about that piece that is abrasive to their agendas.

There's no false equivalence about it, it's how news media works, along with Pizza Hut and Dominoes, market share of consumers, so it's refreshing to see occasional bits that weave around or shrug off single perspectives.

3
 waitout 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Fox News (Brett Baier) were actually good tonight (News not Hannity and his ilk), they rubbished the Antifa link, pretty seriously talked about removing Trump from office.

> However Pence has just said he won't support the 25th Amendment step.

> Even Lindsay Graham has said he won't support it, unless Trump does more, but the option is on the table. 

> I can't see him going, I can see Congress rushing through an impeachment just to get senators on record. But it sounds like he's agreed to go quietly in two weeks.

That's interesting to hear. The retooling of Fox is one of the more interesting parts of all this, it being a propaganda wing for conservatives and all. I suppose most conservatives still like things nice and quiet like the fifties, not this heated sixties-style stuff.

Let's never forget that Pence, Graham, McConnell etc are still sacks of shit of humans. They look better next to Trump and Cruz now, but they hold big responsibility for the f*ckery we are watching. Oh add Bolton too. All this has been one of a small spectrum of fairly obvious predictions, plenty of pundits have known this was on the cards, these bastards have to be seen for what they are.

I agree Trump won't go before his time, and I think he will still do some stupid stuff before then. Impeachment will bide the time and maybe gather a list as you say, a bit grotesque in a Stalinesque sort of way, but fun to watch.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

They are idiots. Unless he is removed or impeached, or at the very least prosecuted after he leaves office he is going to be causing trouble until he dies of old age.

In reply to waitout:

> I'll take the rare bit of flattery, but I think your second sentence is more poignant than my fifty sentences are. A very good call.

Likewise on the flattery!  While my somewhat left of centre mindset hates my use of the markets as an indicator, it does seem to work. The whole last 4 years seems to be mostly bluster on that basis, with the notable exception of a momentary bit of (justified) panic early in the year. 

Additional - a senator from Colorado (no idea who) last night made the excellent point that this was similar to the fall of the Roman republic - politicians using the mob to do their dirty work. The worry is that someone competent will appear and do the same but succeed.  

Post edited at 00:32
 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

Yeah, I think many see it as political opportunism by people now distancing themselves from him. They've just made the calculation that he's now more dangerous to their political future than helpful but just want it to end quietly.

It sounds like there's a battle within Fox between the more moderate sensible news side and then the punditry side like Hannity and Ingraham which is very much an arm of the Trump administration.

Limbaugh of course is saying the protestors shouldn't stop, but it sounds like he won't be around much longer so doesn't give a toss.

Aye historic time to watch all this end, it makes good TV.

 waitout 08 Jan 2021
In reply to pneame:

> Likewise on the flattery!  While my somewhat left of centre mindset hates my use of the markets as an indicator, it does seem to work. The whole last 4 years seems to be mostly bluster on that basis, with the notable exception of a momentary bit of (justified) panic early in the year. 

> Additional - a senator from Colorado (no idea who) last night made the excellent point that this was similar to the fall of the Roman republic - politicians using the mob to do their dirty work. The worry is that someone competent will appear and do the same but succeed.  

I wonder if it's your suspicion of the markets that allows the perspective. 'In spite of' rather than 'because of'? It's always good to see ways of viewing and communicating these things that are less hostage to media than the 200 word articles.

Yes, I also think this all has mundane historical precedent (though the fall of Rome was somewhat more pressing on civilization that yesterdays will probably ever be). If you haven't, watch The Death of Stalin. You'd only have to change the names it's disturbingly prescient to be the script Trump is working to.

1
 waitout 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

I'm jealous you're getting this in real time. I recall tutors in the 90's beseeching us stoned students for sitting in the halls whilst the world changed at a rate that leaves the current events cold.

I expect the good stuff in the next year to not be Biden's honeymoon period, but the pogroms and ass kissing in the GOP as they reorganize. Given the right people - and I believe the most impressive people we've seen over the last few months have been maverick Republicans - the GOP could come back very strong in a good way.

In reply to waitout:

> If you haven't, watch The Death of Stalin. You'd only have to change the names it's disturbingly prescient to be the script Trump is working to.

Superb film- very clever. I’ll have to give it a rewatch with that perspective. 

i’m always keen to turn questions upside down- often a good way to unveil the real question rather than what you would like the question to be. 

 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to waitout:

> Because the left-of-centre media keep wanting to validate all this by calling it a coup.

Attempted coup.  Which it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup

1
 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I can't see him going, I can see Congress rushing through an impeachment just to get senators on record. But it sounds like he's agreed to go quietly in two weeks.

I hope they will push a second impeachment through.  As you say it'll fail in the senate, there's no way they'll get the 2/3 majority, but in two years times the voters will be able to see which of the Republican senators belatedly joined Mitt Romney in the backbone owners' club.

1
In reply to wintertree:

> > If you really don't want anybody getting into your government buildings you'll stop them. Somebody making decisions somewhere made sure they were under prepared.

> Yes, I have had similar thoughts.  Will be interesting to see if the guard rotas and police mobilisations etc are published and compared to previous, similar events.


 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

This is a worthwhile read.  Note the date, it was written a couple of months ago.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-coup-stage-of-donald-trumps-presidency

 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Chive Talkin':

That should be the big story here. The 2nd and 3rd in line to the presidency were in grave danger. His supporters beat an officer to death who tried to protect them.

Even tucker has left the Trump train. He's spent 5 years lying and supporting him. He's as much to blame. Trump is finished. It was the start of this week we were outraged over a phone call.. now he's responsible for this 

Post edited at 12:33
1
 Darron 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Trumps statement this morning is surely clear indication that Pence has threatened him with the 25th?

 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Darron:

> Trumps statement this morning is surely clear indication that Pence has threatened him with the 25th?

His supporters are saying that wasn't him..

 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Ted Cruz on Twitter.  Check this out for sheer mind boggling weapons-grade hypocrisy:
https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1347411930114359296

 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> His supporters are saying that wasn't him..

I'm not sure whether I believe it or not, but Pence is the only one who could credibly threaten to invoke the 25th isn't he?

In reply to deepsoup:

And so under the bus go Trump’s useful idiots in MAGA hats. Would be interesting to see their reaction when the door is kicked in and law enforcement arrives for them, and the penny drops that the Great Leader is not just failing to save them, but is actively calling for their prosecution. I have a tiny violin I keep for just these occasions.

 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> I'm not sure whether I believe it or not, but Pence is the only one who could credibly threaten to invoke the 25th isn't he?

He could, I think he might have threatened him to go quietly.

Trump should face criminal charges 'lets march down Pennsylvania Anenue, I'll be there with you'.

 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Would be interesting to see their reaction when the door is kicked in and law enforcement arrives for them..

I hope the doors of any individuals who happen to work in law enforcement will be among the first of those getting kicked in.  (Rumours abound of off-duty DC police officers among the mob.)

Let alone 'lawmakers' who really should know better.  Although I suppose their sincerity in actually getting their own hands dirty as opposed to just throwing a load of useful idiots under the bus is almost laudable in a twisted kind of way.  (It elevates them above the likes of Ted Cruz anyway, low as that bar is.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/republican-lawmakers-rioters-capitol-photos-b1784170.html

Post edited at 13:51
 mondite 08 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> I'm not sure whether I believe it or not, but Pence is the only one who could credibly threaten to invoke the 25th isn't he?

It needs him plus several members of the cabinet. Quite a few republicans seem to have just notice what a shit show they have helped create.

I feel sorry for the family of that poor cop murdered by the crowd. I guess I missed the bit on the end of "Blue Lives matter" -  "except when they try and prevent our acts of sedition".

 Roadrunner6 08 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> I'm not sure whether I believe it or not, but Pence is the only one who could credibly threaten to invoke the 25th isn't he?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/08/trump-incites-anger-among-acolytes-let-down-by-lack-of-support

Others turned to conspiracy theories, not least in the dark corners of 4chan and Parler, where the cult of QAnon holds sway. Many here saw not a Trump concession but either a “deep fake” video concocted by Trump’s enemies, or secret messages that indicated Trump was still on track to deliver on QAnon’s deranged promises.

“FAK fake fake He’s been locked out of his Twitter he can’t get into it he couldn’t get into it he couldn’t get into today it’s been closed out for ever,” opined someone called Magafree. “He has a plan here President Trump would not back down that easily,” wrote Brenda. “We need to stand strong, keep watch and pray. Something big is coming and Gid [God] is going to see it through.”

 deepsoup 08 Jan 2021
In reply to mondite:

> I feel sorry for the family of that poor cop murdered by the crowd. I guess I missed the bit on the end of "Blue Lives matter"...

I bet there were also a few "Blue Lives Matter" supporters among those who made the decision to throw those particular cops to the wolves and have them stood out there as a token presence without the means or the backup to adequately protect the Capitol (or themselves) when the mob inevitably came.

I suppose that might have been mere incompetence though - Hanlon's Razor and all that.

 waitout 08 Jan 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Attempted coup.  Which it was.

When the serious players that analyze and address this stuff start applying the term - not Conrad Anker and Seth Meyers - I will be happy to oblige.

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