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I think I now wish that the UK would finally just shut up and LEAVE the EU. If for no other reason but to see who the dissaffected idiots in UKIP etc would blame for all their ills.
in reply to goatee:
MONKEY GOVERNMENT!
MONKEY GOVERNMENT!
In reply to goatee:
easy. they would keep blaming the EU since, as a major market, we would still have to go along with what they say on several subjects.
easy. they would keep blaming the EU since, as a major market, we would still have to go along with what they say on several subjects.
In reply to dissonance:
Correct.
The Americans have to care about what happens in the EU and the Chinese have to care what happens in the EU so even unhitching the UK from the European continental shelf and towing it somewhere else won't work.
UKIP were born on the wrong planet. Tough. Grow up and get over it.
> (In reply to goatee)
>
> easy. they would keep blaming the EU since, as a major market, we would still have to go along with what they say on several subjects.
>
> easy. they would keep blaming the EU since, as a major market, we would still have to go along with what they say on several subjects.
Correct.
The Americans have to care about what happens in the EU and the Chinese have to care what happens in the EU so even unhitching the UK from the European continental shelf and towing it somewhere else won't work.
UKIP were born on the wrong planet. Tough. Grow up and get over it.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
You've got me wondering whether they were actually born with blazers on and/ or those angry little red faces.
>
> UKIP were born on the wrong planet.
> UKIP were born on the wrong planet.
You've got me wondering whether they were actually born with blazers on and/ or those angry little red faces.
In reply to goatee: Do you think we should have a vote on whether to leave the eu?
In reply to goatee:
Maybe UKIP should form an Easter Rising and fight their way to independence?
Maybe UKIP should arrange and actually go through with a referendum on the subject?
What about introducing some sort of capital blight to induce a drochshaol so that people haven't got any money to export to the EU? There's a possibility of course that we would carry on exporting capital to the EU regardless and cause the abject poverty of our people.
Three solid suggestions I think. Alternatively we could allow people to have opinions that conclude in leaving the EU, without calling them idiots?
Maybe UKIP should form an Easter Rising and fight their way to independence?
Maybe UKIP should arrange and actually go through with a referendum on the subject?
What about introducing some sort of capital blight to induce a drochshaol so that people haven't got any money to export to the EU? There's a possibility of course that we would carry on exporting capital to the EU regardless and cause the abject poverty of our people.
Three solid suggestions I think. Alternatively we could allow people to have opinions that conclude in leaving the EU, without calling them idiots?
In reply to goatee: As someone who works for a company that sells into Europe and indeed takes advantage of Germany's 19% VAT rate, I would prefer we stayed as we were thank you very much. It is easy to see all the sh1t flying around Europe and very easy to miss the bigger picture.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
There's a difference between caring what happens in the EU and being part of it. Do you think that the Swiss were also all born on the wrong planet or not grown up? The "it's there, therefore we have to be in it" attitude seems bizarrely unthinking.
> The Americans have to care about what happens in the EU ... UKIP were born on the wrong planet.
> Tough. Grow up and get over it.
> Tough. Grow up and get over it.
There's a difference between caring what happens in the EU and being part of it. Do you think that the Swiss were also all born on the wrong planet or not grown up? The "it's there, therefore we have to be in it" attitude seems bizarrely unthinking.
In reply to EZ: Nice one. Well argued and presented. Please arrange a vote as soon as possible
In reply to See You Next Wednesday:
You forgot "swivel-eyed", "zenophic", "little-Englanders", "racists", "Daily Mail readers" - and various other knee-jerk insults.
Oh, and you also forgot "absolutely spot on about the Euro, and also the EU, and accurately predicted the consequences from the start", when all the 'correct' were denoucing them as lunatics, dinosaurs etc, etc.
The EU is a crumbling, dysfunctional empire, that has little or no popular support or consent and invariably resorts to trying to prop up its crumbling fortress with apocalyptic fear-based blackmail. It is a sinking ship, the best place to be is in a lifeboat, even if it is not terribly comfortable there, it saves you from drowning.
Trade with the EU, or what is left of it, would carry on under WTO rules anyway, assuming they had any money left that anyone still wanted to be paid in. It is unlikely that Britain can fully protect itself from the EU/Euro catastrophe by leaving, but there is no doubt that the less closely we are involved, the better. A bit like Finland having been seperate from the Soviet Union.
> You've got me wondering whether they were actually born with blazers on and/ or those angry little red faces.
You forgot "swivel-eyed", "zenophic", "little-Englanders", "racists", "Daily Mail readers" - and various other knee-jerk insults.
Oh, and you also forgot "absolutely spot on about the Euro, and also the EU, and accurately predicted the consequences from the start", when all the 'correct' were denoucing them as lunatics, dinosaurs etc, etc.
The EU is a crumbling, dysfunctional empire, that has little or no popular support or consent and invariably resorts to trying to prop up its crumbling fortress with apocalyptic fear-based blackmail. It is a sinking ship, the best place to be is in a lifeboat, even if it is not terribly comfortable there, it saves you from drowning.
Trade with the EU, or what is left of it, would carry on under WTO rules anyway, assuming they had any money left that anyone still wanted to be paid in. It is unlikely that Britain can fully protect itself from the EU/Euro catastrophe by leaving, but there is no doubt that the less closely we are involved, the better. A bit like Finland having been seperate from the Soviet Union.
In reply to goatee:
Do you have a sensible reason for thinking that or are you just trying to start a fight?
Personally I think it would be better for all if your own country, Ireland and the rest of the economic basket cases in the Eurozone left without further whingeing but we all stayed as a block of trading partners. I'd be more likely to go on holiday and do business with you once your currency had settled to a sensible value.
> I think I now wish that the UK would finally just shut up and LEAVE the EU.
Do you have a sensible reason for thinking that or are you just trying to start a fight?
Personally I think it would be better for all if your own country, Ireland and the rest of the economic basket cases in the Eurozone left without further whingeing but we all stayed as a block of trading partners. I'd be more likely to go on holiday and do business with you once your currency had settled to a sensible value.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
In some ways the Swiss can be viewed as the ultimate internationalist. However, once you consider that they only joined the UN in 2002, becoming the only member to have joined on the basis of a popular vote, you can see how the 'Third Man' analysis of Switzerland arose and how it became so popular a quote.
It may be that the Swiss dedication to the popular vote is what has enabled them to hold two dozen tiny little countries together of hundreds of years. However, one of the normal requirements of politicians is leadership and this is clearly less so for Swiss politicians since many major decisions are made by the electorate.
Expect Swiss EEA membership and UN peacekeeper contributions some time in the 22nd century. They are unique. They don't need to grow up because they have all our money.
(I dare say my friends at the local Swiss Club would agree with most or all of that.)
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
>
> [...]
>
> ... Do you think that the Swiss were also all born on the wrong planet or not grown up?
>
> [...]
>
> ... Do you think that the Swiss were also all born on the wrong planet or not grown up?
In some ways the Swiss can be viewed as the ultimate internationalist. However, once you consider that they only joined the UN in 2002, becoming the only member to have joined on the basis of a popular vote, you can see how the 'Third Man' analysis of Switzerland arose and how it became so popular a quote.
It may be that the Swiss dedication to the popular vote is what has enabled them to hold two dozen tiny little countries together of hundreds of years. However, one of the normal requirements of politicians is leadership and this is clearly less so for Swiss politicians since many major decisions are made by the electorate.
Expect Swiss EEA membership and UN peacekeeper contributions some time in the 22nd century. They are unique. They don't need to grow up because they have all our money.
(I dare say my friends at the local Swiss Club would agree with most or all of that.)
In reply to Removed User: Fight?? surely you mean discussion. Sometimes its just too easy.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
And the Norwegians? Are they another lot not yet grown up or on the wrong planet? (I guess the latter would be Slartibartbast's fault).
And the Norwegians? Are they another lot not yet grown up or on the wrong planet? (I guess the latter would be Slartibartbast's fault).
In reply to goatee:
I doubt he did. Yours was a deliberately abusive OP bereft of a cogent argument so presumably a fight was what you wanted to provoke.
> (In reply to Eric9Points) Fight?? surely you mean discussion.
I doubt he did. Yours was a deliberately abusive OP bereft of a cogent argument so presumably a fight was what you wanted to provoke.
In reply to Simon4
Insults yes. Knee jerk no, as they are based on a sound empirical basis.
I've obviously not seen your Party card but its hard not wonder whether you're just one more point of data.
Insults yes. Knee jerk no, as they are based on a sound empirical basis.
I've obviously not seen your Party card but its hard not wonder whether you're just one more point of data.
In reply to Postmanpat: No really, I meant discussion. I was being deliberately provocative and perhaps a wee bit cheeky but keep it in perspective please. Oh and to further add fuel to the embers would they leave Scotland stay in ?.
In reply to goatee: 'I was being deliberately provocative and perhaps a wee bit cheeky but keep it in perspective please'
OK, let's keep it in perspective. You demonstrated no knowledge whatsoever of the issues involved in EU membership.
David Owen wrote in the Times today suggesting that a 'two speed' EU should be created - a core group of nations who would have the euro as their currency and would be subject to the laws of an elected European Commission, and an outer group of non-euro nations who would benefit from membership of a free trade area but not be bound by regulations created by the currently unelected European Commission.
This seems to me to be a better solution for the UK than its current position, but I have never understood what is so good about an EU free trade area. Surely it is in everyone's interests to be able to engage in trade with any other nation on the basis of what is in each nation's best economic interests - any system which does not allow this to take place is placing an economic straitjacket on its member states.
OK, let's keep it in perspective. You demonstrated no knowledge whatsoever of the issues involved in EU membership.
David Owen wrote in the Times today suggesting that a 'two speed' EU should be created - a core group of nations who would have the euro as their currency and would be subject to the laws of an elected European Commission, and an outer group of non-euro nations who would benefit from membership of a free trade area but not be bound by regulations created by the currently unelected European Commission.
This seems to me to be a better solution for the UK than its current position, but I have never understood what is so good about an EU free trade area. Surely it is in everyone's interests to be able to engage in trade with any other nation on the basis of what is in each nation's best economic interests - any system which does not allow this to take place is placing an economic straitjacket on its member states.
In reply to John2: Well thats told me I guess. And you read the Times. Well there is no point in saying more, Me OUT
In reply to John2:
I fear I must quibble about the terminology here. A "two speed" terminology implies that both groups are heading for the same place, merely arriving there at different times. That is not what David Owen suggested and not what "euro-sceptics" are asking for -- they want a two *destination* Europe, in which states can stay out of the Eurozone indefinitely.
> David Owen wrote in the Times today suggesting that a 'two speed' EU should be created
I fear I must quibble about the terminology here. A "two speed" terminology implies that both groups are heading for the same place, merely arriving there at different times. That is not what David Owen suggested and not what "euro-sceptics" are asking for -- they want a two *destination* Europe, in which states can stay out of the Eurozone indefinitely.
In reply to Coel Hellier: Terminology indeed. What do you think about the issues involved?
In reply to goatee: If you knew more about the issues you would know that not only is David Owen an ex UK foreign secretary, but that he also changed his position from being initially a proponent of EU membership for the UK to being one of the most prominent opponents to UK membership of the euro.
In reply to goatee:
It's all very complex. Ultimately it seems to boil down to the unnatural state of having a common currency without central control over economic policy. Without the natural balancing mechanism provided by devaluation of currency (economy goes down, currency goes down, exports go up in simple terms) then you get the strong economies benefiting (Germany's currency would be very strong, making its export less competitive, and Greece weak, with its exports more competitive.) Or that's how it seems to me.
Economies tend to equilibrium, we just have to control the swings. We enjoyed the big up, now we're having a hoot on the big down.
I'm unsure if the UK being in the EU has as large an economic impact as many think. The fact that you are not in the euro is a massive bonus at the minute. However, as was pointed out above, the troubles in the eurozone will affect the UK economy whether or not the UK is in the EU.
As for whether the UK should leave the EU or not, well what's the point even debating it, the real issues never come out and people vote for whoever votes the loudest, idiots judge people by the paper they read and facts and reasoned arguments are few and far between... (am I being pessimistic?)
It's all very complex. Ultimately it seems to boil down to the unnatural state of having a common currency without central control over economic policy. Without the natural balancing mechanism provided by devaluation of currency (economy goes down, currency goes down, exports go up in simple terms) then you get the strong economies benefiting (Germany's currency would be very strong, making its export less competitive, and Greece weak, with its exports more competitive.) Or that's how it seems to me.
Economies tend to equilibrium, we just have to control the swings. We enjoyed the big up, now we're having a hoot on the big down.
I'm unsure if the UK being in the EU has as large an economic impact as many think. The fact that you are not in the euro is a massive bonus at the minute. However, as was pointed out above, the troubles in the eurozone will affect the UK economy whether or not the UK is in the EU.
As for whether the UK should leave the EU or not, well what's the point even debating it, the real issues never come out and people vote for whoever votes the loudest, idiots judge people by the paper they read and facts and reasoned arguments are few and far between... (am I being pessimistic?)
In reply to Tim_C7: 'idiots judge people by the paper they read and facts and reasoned arguments are few and far between... (am I being pessimistic?)'
The EU in my opinion proves dramaically Churchll's quote 'it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time'.
Completely uninformed people such as the OP have as much right to vote as anyone else, and yet what is the alternative? The railroading bullies who set up the EU, ignoring democratic referenda against the Lisbon treaty in the belief that they knew better than the electorate.
The EU in my opinion proves dramaically Churchll's quote 'it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time'.
Completely uninformed people such as the OP have as much right to vote as anyone else, and yet what is the alternative? The railroading bullies who set up the EU, ignoring democratic referenda against the Lisbon treaty in the belief that they knew better than the electorate.
In reply to John2:
But... we ..get... a ... vote don't we? Total horseradish! The people who sit in power at the EU parliament have got NO INTENTION to look after the interests of their constituents. It is about global finance structures and business partnerships and I don't mean your local mum and dad grocery shop.
> The railroading bullies who set up the EU, ignoring democratic referenda against the Lisbon treaty in the belief that they knew better than the electorate.
But... we ..get... a ... vote don't we? Total horseradish! The people who sit in power at the EU parliament have got NO INTENTION to look after the interests of their constituents. It is about global finance structures and business partnerships and I don't mean your local mum and dad grocery shop.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
No. Not at all like the Swiss. They are EEA members, hugely participative internationalist and closely wedded to their neighbours in arrangements with their roots in former centuries. Definitely proof that we're all in it together (in spite of the Danes and their counting and the Swedes and their committees).
#You can check out but you can never leave#
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
>
> And the Norwegians? Are they another lot not yet grown up or on the wrong planet? (I guess the latter would be Slartibartbast's fault).
>
> And the Norwegians? Are they another lot not yet grown up or on the wrong planet? (I guess the latter would be Slartibartbast's fault).
No. Not at all like the Swiss. They are EEA members, hugely participative internationalist and closely wedded to their neighbours in arrangements with their roots in former centuries. Definitely proof that we're all in it together (in spite of the Danes and their counting and the Swedes and their committees).
#You can check out but you can never leave#
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