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VE Day street party?

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 tomsan91 26 Feb 2020

Is a street party an appropriate way to commemorate the end of such a conflict in Europe and by proxy the end of the Nazi genocide? I can understand the elation felt at the time but 75 years on it would seem like a nationalistic celebration, in which an extremely small proportion of the population actively participated in the original event.

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 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

Lest we forget. 

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 fred99 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

More likely something brought about by politicians in order to distract us plebs from the sh!t that they're dropping us in.

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 Will Hunt 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

Personally I think that commemorating the defeat of Nazi-ism is well worth celebrating and there's not been a time since when commemorating and remembering such an event has been as important.

Unfortunately, victory in Europe in the national consciousness is now thought of more as a defeat of Germany as a people and civilization, rather than a defeat of a fascist regime. The moving of the bank holiday this year to give everyone a day off to celebrate victory in Europe is one of the most thinly veiled pieces of nationalistic jingo that I've seen from a UK government at a very divisive time for the country. It's depressing to see that the defeat of the Nazis is being used as a propaganda tool by a government who have drawn ideas from the same font.

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In reply to summo:

> Lest we forget. 

Street parties have got sod all to do with remembrance.  The rich b*stards putting the money behind Brexit are using 'patriotic' nonsense like this as a cynical way of manipulating the gullible into putting up with the oncoming self inflicted shitstorm.

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 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

You can make it about brexit if you wish. But given the rise of many far right parties across Europe I would suggest it is worth people remembering just how bad the world wars were for everyone, on all sides.

It's not about British nationalism, it's about celebrating the end of needless deaths and the remembering the massive sacrifices that all folk of that era made. 

Whilst you can rant about your rich b*astards funding, or the evil English making life so miserable for the Scottish.. just think how life might have gone had the war not swung in the allies favour.

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 stevieb 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

Most countries seem to have a national day, often an independence day commemorating the end of an armed struggle. Presumably these all have a heavy dose of patriotism, are these also necessarily bad?

I can easily see VE day hitting the wrong notes; belligerence or wallowing in rose tinted nostalgia for the good old days of deference and white people, but it doesn't have to be that way. It COULD be a feel good national celebration, like the Olympics.

 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Street parties have got sod all to do with remembrance.  The rich b*stards putting the money behind Brexit are using 'patriotic' nonsense like this as a cynical way of manipulating the gullible into putting up with the oncoming self inflicted shitstorm.

I'll just add, rather than edit the above. I agree there will always be someone looking to capitalise from any event, no political party is innocent of this. 

But I don't think it's a good enough reason to stop remembering or commemorating, I think the use of the words implying celebrating might be inappropriate though. We should remember the losses and learn from past mistakes. 

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 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to stevieb:

> Most countries seem to have a national day, often an independence day commemorating the end of an armed struggle. Presumably these all have a heavy dose of patriotism, are these also necessarily bad?

> I can easily see VE day hitting the wrong notes; belligerence or wallowing in rose tinted nostalgia for the good old days of deference and white people, but it doesn't have to be that way. It COULD be a feel good national celebration, like the Olympics.

I think the UK needs to pick neutral date, that doesn't already have an existing meaning. So it can't really be a war victory, or any of the individual nation saints either. 

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 jkarran 26 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> You can make it about brexit if you wish. But given the rise of many far right parties across Europe I would suggest it is worth people remembering just how bad the world wars were for everyone, on all sides.

Oh FFS. Brexit Britain is one of those anti immigrant nationalist movements, not fundamentally opposed to them. We're part of the problem.

> It's not about British nationalism, it's about celebrating the end of needless deaths and the remembering the massive sacrifices that all folk of that era made. 

That's what remembrance Sunday is supposed to be for.

jk

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OP tomsan91 26 Feb 2020
In reply to stevieb:

I wouldn’t say that a national day of celebration such as the 4th of July is bad, just that in my opinion it doesn’t sit well in this case. Far right groups don’t need a day to yap on about “two world wars and one world cup” they will do that all year round. I just think a more sober memorial day would be more useful with focuses on education about the events and social progress made since then rather than a day of cake eating in the street. The centenary of Armistice Day did not see the same focus and looked more at the cost of the war rather than victory, in a conflict with more civilian deaths than military I would have expected something more of that ilk.

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In reply to summo:

> I think the UK needs to pick neutral date, that doesn't already have an existing meaning. So it can't really be a war victory, or any of the individual nation saints either. 

Since Scotland gets to choose its own Bank Holidays I'm going to suggest the SNP government go for Europe Day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_Day

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 Will Hunt 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

We already hold a national celebration on a politically neutral day. It's called Last Night of the Proms.

 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

> Unfortunately, victory in Europe in the national consciousness is now thought of more as a defeat of Germany as a people and civilization, rather than a defeat of a fascist regime.

I'd disagree with the "now" bit of that statement. If you spoke to the generation who actually fought in the war, the vast majority would have said they fought against the Germans and Japanese, not against an ideology.

The "fighting against the Nazis, not the Germans" is a relatively recent viewpoint.

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 DerwentDiluted 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

The problem I have with VE day celebrations 75 years down the line, is that it will largely perpetuate the narrative that Britain won the war. The Britain Stands Alone thing, Spitfires and Spam to a Vera Lynn soundtrack beloved of the popular press.  We were a significant part of 'The Allies', we did great things, of which we can be very proud, but we did it at the end of an umbilical cord from America and knee deep in Russian blood.  We did it with the French, the Poles, the Czechs, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Norwegians, the Canadians, those from the Carribean, the Ethiopians etc.  We did it as part of a combined effort, an alliance with allies, a... oh whats the word?  where you are all united..?

Post edited at 12:41
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 Arms Cliff 26 Feb 2020
In reply to stevieb:

> Most countries seem to have a national day, often an independence day commemorating the end of an armed struggle. Presumably these all have a heavy dose of patriotism, are these also necessarily bad?

Half of these are celebrating independence from England 😂 maybe this is part of the reason we struggle with nationalism in this country, as our past as a country is so complex. 

 The New NickB 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

Particularly as the VE bank holiday is at the expense of a traditionally internationalist bank holiday.

 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Since Scotland gets to choose its own Bank Holidays I'm going to suggest the SNP government go for Europe Day.

Which is essentially celebrating a coal and iron ore agreement after ww2 ended. Not a million miles away from VE day in some respects. 

Post edited at 14:55
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 EdS 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

again the Forgotten Army and VJ doesn't get a look in

Roadrunner6 26 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

But whether they won or lost doesn't change that.

German soldiers died who also deserve to be remembered.

I don't see the point in it TBH. 

Roadrunner6 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> I'd disagree with the "now" bit of that statement. If you spoke to the generation who actually fought in the war, the vast majority would have said they fought against the Germans and Japanese, not against an ideology.

> The "fighting against the Nazis, not the Germans" is a relatively recent viewpoint.

I was once hiking in the peak and met an old guard from a prisoner of war camp on the edge of Sheffield (it was near Redmires at the back of Stanage). He was very clear he did not hold any grudge against the soldiers he guarded and would take them hiking during the war, he was very clear that the fight was Hitler and not the German people.. He was proud of the fact that after the war those prisoners came back for a holiday to visit and hike in the peak. 

I was 15 at the time and that conversation has stuck with me for 25 years.

Post edited at 15:56
 MonkeyPuzzle 26 Feb 2020
In reply to summo:

> Lest we forget. 

Lest we not be given a new reason every day to die from embarrassment.

Look over here kids! Look over here! No, not over there at the no trade deal, 25% cut to farming tariffs, job losses, drop in life expectancy, no flood defences etc.! Over here! Over here! Look, a Spitfire!

Jingoistic, anti-historical, unlearning, self-deluding horseshit.

Ahhhhh. That felt good.

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 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> German soldiers died who also deserve to be remembered.

On a wider level I'd agree with that, and to an extent on Armistice day that is acknowledged. However at a national level I can't imagine the Russians, Ukranians or Poles will be buying into that sentiment.

> I don't see the point in it TBH. 

Ditto. Almost everyone who fought in WW2 is now dead. Time to stop obsessing on a war that ended almost 75 years ago and thinking that the rest of the world somehow owes the citizens of UK 2020 undying respect because of the actions of the citizens of the 1930s and 1940s.

Post edited at 16:51
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 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> German soldiers died who also deserve to be remembered.

If you go all the way back to 11:38, I said we should consider the needless loss of life on all sides. It wasn't exactly just a two sided war, it was as complex as it could get and there's no doubt some nations lost even more lives than Britain. If we don't remember events factually as they really were, the lessons won't be learnt either, which means we shouldn't over glorify either.

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In reply to Ridge:

> I'd disagree with the "now" bit of that statement. If you spoke to the generation who actually fought in the war, the vast majority would have said they fought against the Germans and Japanese, not against an ideology.

I don't think drawing the distinction between Nazis an Germans is that recent.  For one thing it was convenient at the time because the enemy flipped from the Germans to the Russians and Germany became an ally against communism.

 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I don't think drawing the distinction between Nazis an Germans is that recent.  For one thing it was convenient at the time because the enemy flipped from the Germans to the Russians and Germany became an ally against communism.

It's an interesting subject. In the case of the Russians it was always the Great Patriotic War against the fascists because it proved the superiority of their own political ideology.

In Germany many senior Nazis were rapidly absorbed back into society, and it was pragmatic for the allies to go along with that. Much of the 1970s terrorism in Germany was claimed to be motivated by the number of former (and pretty much unrepentant) Nazis in senior positions in government or business.

In some ways it's all linked to national mythologies; Britain standing alone against the Nazis, the entire population of France was in the Resistance, no-one in Germany really supported the Nazis and Grandad just joined the Waffen SS because he liked the uniform.

 Will Hunt 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> In Germany many senior Nazis were rapidly absorbed back into society, and it was pragmatic for the allies to go along with that. Much of the 1970s terrorism in Germany was claimed to be motivated by the number of former (and pretty much unrepentant) Nazis in senior positions in government or business.

Really? How does this square with Nuremberg and the state agencies that hunted senior Nazis-on-the-run for years after. What are you deeming to be senior? Clearly after VE it wasn't feasible to try every officer in the SS or rank-and-file party member, not least because those people would be required to keep the wheels of society turning, but the allies certainly hunted those who had been signing the death warrants and who had instigated and organised the regime at the top of government.

It's only recently that I've come to lament the inadequacy of the national learning that we've taken from the period. Everyone knows about the holocaust and agrees that "it must never happen again", but there is almost nothing said about how it was done. So now we end up with government committing the same misdeeds (boring, philosophical sounding stuff like "undermining the judiciary and the rule of law") and the jingoistic, poppy-worshipping section of the population whoop and cheer. Those same people will share ostensibly pro-armed forces Britain First memes on social media, seemingly without realising that they're advertising an organisation that is ideologically aligned with that which the allies fought the war against.

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 Jim Fraser 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

The true legacy of WW2 is not the Commando Comic politics of Boris and his mates but the institutions, constitutional and human rights documents, and the associated courts that emerged in the years that followed. 

Fourteen years of war and fascist tyranny meant that everyone in the world knew what was important in life. Some people wrote those things down. Some of those efforts are ongoing 75 years later. We know them as
- UN Charter
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights, UDHR
- UN Economic Committee for Europe, UNECE
- Council of Europe, CoE
- European Convention for the Protection of Fundamental Freedoms and Human Rights, ECHR
- European Court of Human Rights, ECtHR
- Schumann Declaration 
- EU Treaties
- European Parliament
- European Court of Justice, ECJ
- International Criminal Court , ICC

That's a list of all the things that keep you safe in your bed tonight.

The kind of leadership that can understand these things and express an appropriate national sentiment for continuation of that legacy is currently entirely absent in the UK. Shame on on every one of you that voted for a shameful shower of c9nts.

Post edited at 17:29
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 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

> Really? How does this square with Nuremberg and the state agencies that hunted senior Nazis-on-the-run for years after. What are you deeming to be senior? Clearly after VE it wasn't feasible to try every officer in the SS or rank-and-file party member, not least because those people would be required to keep the wheels of society turning, but the allies certainly hunted those who had been signing the death warrants and who had instigated and organised the regime at the top of government.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/from-dictatorship-to-democracy...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nazi-germany-post-war-gover...

 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

> It's only recently that I've come to lament the inadequacy of the national learning that we've taken from the period. Everyone knows about the holocaust and agrees that "it must never happen again", but there is almost nothing said about how it was done. So now we end up with government committing the same misdeeds (boring, philosophical sounding stuff like "undermining the judiciary and the rule of law") and the jingoistic, poppy-worshipping section of the population whoop and cheer. Those same people will share ostensibly pro-armed forces Britain First memes on social media, seemingly without realising that they're advertising an organisation that is ideologically aligned with that which the allies fought the war against.

The parallels are quite striking. Even though we've now left the “shackles of the EU”  the restrictions on burning coal and wet wood are apparently still an evil plot by the EU to attack the UK. The “stab in the back” narrative will no doubt be applied to any negatives that befall us in the future.

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 Pete Pozman 26 Feb 2020
In reply to tomsan91:

It's time to let it lie. Our future should be predicated on something other than not losing a war. People who were there as children are making too much of false memories like how we all stood to attention and proudly sang the national anthem in cinemas. I was there and we definitely didn't do any of that. VE and VJ Day should be remembered not celebrated. It's 75 years since the atom bomb was dropped; we definitely need to remember that.

 Tom Valentine 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

Wearing a poppy does not make a person jingoistic. Neither does going on a battlefield tour or admiring a Battle of Britain flypast.

 Bacon Butty 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Wearing a poppy does not make a person jingoistic. Neither does going on a battlefield tour or admiring a Battle of Britain flypast.


Indeed. ^

I hadn't heard about any of this VE day stuff until this thread, then I had to search to find out more.
I assume everyone knows that this Bank Holiday was shifted 5 years ago for the 70th anniversary.  I can't recall any outrage from then.

 DerwentDiluted 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Wearing a poppy does not make a person jingoistic. Neither does going on a battlefield tour or admiring a Battle of Britain flypast.

Not at all, my other hobby is exploring battlefields, and I don't think I qualify as Jingoistic. But, appropriating poppies and eulogising our war dead, distorted perspectives on history and a selective amnesia turning remembrance into some kind of cult, while taking pains to ignore that the poppy also represents Muslims, Hindhus, Sikhs, Gurkhas, Chinese, Africans, Fijians, Jamaicans and all the other myriad of people who fought, died and were broken in the service of this country, probably is.  

The CWGC list of war dead for WW1 lists 13822 persons named Smith and 6663 named Brown. I'm pretty sure they are in the minds of those EDL supporters flying their poppy flags as will be the 2867 Robinsons. I wonder if those flags fly for the 6049 Khans listed too?

Post edited at 20:04
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 Tom Valentine 26 Feb 2020
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

I have no problem with people reading aloud Binyon's "For the Fallen" at ceremonies both here and abroad. I would call that eulogising our war dead.

As for appropriating symbols and flags, that only happens when we let it happen. 

 Will Hunt 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Wearing a poppy does not make a person jingoistic. Neither does going on a battlefield tour or admiring a Battle of Britain flypast.

Of course it doesn't. I wear a poppy, have been to the cemeteries in northern France, the Menin Gate, the Great Gable memorial service etc etc. But as DerwentDiluted said, remembrance has been highjacked and turned into a cult by many, to the point where it seems that we've forgotten what it is supposed to be about. Most notably the Poppy Patrols that far right groups have carried out in recent years.

Exhibit A: https://twitter.com/MascotSilence/status/1193140302946586624?s=19

Post edited at 20:11
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 Bacon Butty 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

Is that the best you can as your primary source of evidence ... Twitter?!?!?
So, modern day football is the hotbed of hardcore far-rightism?  What a load of bollocks.
That clip is just a bit cheesey at worst.

As for Britain First hijacking the poppy, are you referring to events 6 years ago?
BF etc are just dumb-f*ck tiny minorities who, are for the most part, treated as the joke that they are.

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 Ridge 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Will Hunt:

My flabber is well and truely gasted...

In reply to tomsan91:

Call me cynical but I see the ve day bank hol as a political move. 

May day is/was international workers day, a historic socialist holiday and celebration. Moving the bank hol takes attention away from this and sticks two fingers up at the left. 

Eventually Boris and chums will take this bank holiday away, the press have been preparing the ground for years with their annual "too many Bank Holidays" moans. 

Watch this space, I hate to say I told you so, but I did. 

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 summo 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> May day is/was international workers day, a historic socialist holiday and celebration.

And for hundreds of years before that right back to the Roman occupation and before it, Mayday was about spring, fertility, floral gods, a stepping stone in the calendar, paganism .... long before the socialists claimed it.   

In reply to summo:

Certainly, but that does not stop the ve day jingoism being a political move. 

I will be posting a "Happy International Workers Day" card to Boris on May 1st.

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 Bacon Butty 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I think you'll find, no one gives a shit when or why we have Bank Holidays - they're a day off work, if you're lucky, with pay!

In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

You miss my point, part of the motivation behind moving the bh is to eventually remove it. 

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In reply to summo:

> Lest we forget. 

Lest we fail to learn.

 jcw 26 Feb 2020
In reply to jkarran:

That's what Rememberance Sunday is for. 

I totally agree. Whilst the French celebrate both the end of WW 1 and how de Gaulle won WW II I  to add to their innumerable public holidays, I always  used to say with some pride we celebrate both events on a Sunday at 11am, which is already a day of rest. Don't  let's turn into a nationalist victory to please the Brexiters. That to me would mark the final turn of the Boris Johnson Daily Express ability to turn anything into a British national victory against Europe and exploit the tragedy of two world wars in both of which my father served, from 1914 onwards. And my French father in law lost his own father and was gassed in WW1. Lest we forget...

Post edited at 22:26
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 FactorXXX 26 Feb 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

> I think you'll find, no one gives a shit when or why we have Bank Holidays - they're a day off work, if you're lucky, with pay!

I'd rather have a Monday off as it's a full day.  Whereas, Friday is a half day for me (finish at 1030) and I'm fairly sure loads of people around the UK will be similarly affected.  

1
In reply to summo:

> Whilst you can rant about your rich b*astards funding, or the evil English making life so miserable for the Scottish.. just think how life might have gone had the war not swung in the allies favour.

My father was in the RAF during the war.  He worked on radar then got embedded with the US Army during the Battle of the Bulge in an RAF truck with a radio beacon for guiding bombers onto German cities.  After the war ended they had him interrogating people suspected of being Nazis because he'd got a degree in German  (I've no idea why they'd put a linguist into a job as a radar technician but I guess armies aren't that bright).   He caught TB in the Ardennes forest.

Anyway, my point is that it was an experience he never wanted to talk about.  He was totally not into celebrations like VE day or even poppy wearing.  He loved travelling to Germany on holiday and was really happy when I married a German woman.  

My view is that people who lived through it and particularly people who saw the desperate state of Germany after the war are far less into this celebration stuff and ongoing hostility to Europe than people who got their information from the UK media.

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