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Violence

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 broken spectre 13 Aug 2022

So much of it on social media, a so called friend shared a vid of some guy getting seriously mauled by a bull on Facebook complete with gloating denotation and I've just scrolled past a clip of a man punching another man repeatedly in the face on Twitter. It's salacious and upsetting and I class myself as pretty hard as well. Why are people compelled to propagate such shite?

1
 Dax H 13 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

I don't get it myself,  I like a funny clip like most people but I have blocked people on WhatsApp for some of the stuff they sent. 

1
 wercat 13 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

we should probably report shit like that

1
In reply to wercat:

Good call, I have now.

 blackcat 13 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

Agreed,im sure theresa way of the companys blocking it ,but dont want to pay out.Also i believe this kind of content goes some way to desensitizing kids to violence.

1
 wintertree 13 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

I want to agree, but schadenfreude…

(Not for the sequeamish)

9
 Sharp 15 Aug 2022

It's a grim part of life that I for one don't begrudge being reminded of. I remember the shock I felt as a teenager the first time some idiot shoved a video in front of my face of a beheading. I can still picture the room I was in like it was yesterday. The curse and privilege of naiveté. The same shock and horror I saw on the face of a fellow student when I was older and someone played the video of Saddam Hussein being hanged and the crowd cheering like animals.

Life is violent. Makes you appreciate how often it is not, and how lucky we are at any given moment to not be dragged out of our homes and beaten to death. I remember my Gran telling me about how people used to go and watch executions. She was kind and caring, but her tiny stature hid a strength and resilience that I can only ever aspire to. I don't think there is any evidence that we have a problem with children being exposed to violence. If anything, they are shielded from it more than ever.

The world is the same grim place it's always been, people love it, they always have, it's just digital now but it's the same attraction that's lived within us since the dawn of time. Censorship doesn't fix anything, if you keep your eyes closed then sooner or later you'll walk into a wall. I'm not sure it's a bad thing to be reminded of what lurkes beneath our skin, the mob mentality and the joy and cameraderie that humans find in the suffering and pain of the other.

The people propagating that and commenting are your gentle mannered neighbors, make no mistake about it. Don't report it and don't censor it. Were soft enough. We have the privilege to live in a world where we're free to close our eyes and set our content filters any way we please. Do we need to make that choice for others?

21
 Dax H 15 Aug 2022
In reply to wintertree:

I had forgotten about that video,  I class it as the exception to the rule. 

2
 artif 15 Aug 2022
In reply to blackcat:

Always struck me as strange, that you can watch any number of unusual/grisly deaths murders on tv at nearly any time of the day, but certain body parts send people in to a complete meltdown  

Post edited at 23:02
In reply to artif:

Western society is full of such contradictions, your example is magnified in the USA where God forbid you should see a nipple on TV, but do anything about multi casualty gun crime, not a chance.

In reply to Sharp:

I understand what you're saying but don't agree.

We can be better than that.

1
 Uncle Derek 16 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

I suppose many of us make comparisons with other peoples lives, such as Facebook etc being full of people showing people how marvellous their lives are. This seems to make a lot of people being dissatisfied and not content with their lives. I suppose the other side of this coin is seeing people who are having it really bad, makes ones own life seem better.

In reply to Dax H:

> I had forgotten about that video,  I class it as the exception to the rule. 

Why?

1
 Uncle Derek 16 Aug 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> I want to agree, but schadenfreude…

> (Not for the sequeamish)

10 likes on that, why? It is framed as a "Chav" being destructive and getting natural justice. 
It could for all we know be a person trying to escape captors and possibly losing a leg, and this video is part of the ongoing humiliation and abuse.
We have no context.
In any event it is not a good thing to see, and no one should glean any pleasure from it.
But the fact that at least 10 people on UKC and you like it, is a sad indictment. A bit surprised at the you, it does not fit the mental picture I have of you.

Post edited at 09:11
16
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> 10 likes on that, why? It is framed as a "Chav" being destructive and getting natural justice. 

Even if he was being destructive, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

 wintertree 16 Aug 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

You have certainly pulled out all the stops with a quest for a complex explanation.

 It doesn't come across in any way as a person under duress, and the person filming it drops the camera to rush in an help, suggesting they're a friend rather than some more complex explanation.

If I was trying to escape captors who surrounded me, were egging me on and filming me, would I repeatedly try and kick the middle panel out of a concrete wall or would I have a go at climbing it?   

If you are genuinely concerned that what you suggest is the case, I suggest you report the video to the police.  Somehow I suspect you won't.

> But the fact that at least 10 people on UKC and you like it, is a sad indictment.

I think it's well established that different people's schadenfreude vs empathy levels are different.   This also differs depending on the immediacy.  If I'd been walking past I'd have rushed over to help and done all I could.  I saw some lads many years ago lobbing themselves in off a waterfall.  One of them hit the shallow rocks, made the worst noise I've heard from a human as they hit and did a lot of moaning.  I swam over to help whilst his mates were laughing before they realised how bad it was.  A lot of people would walk on by from a group of rowdy pissed up lads with one in difficulties.  That's the sad indictment IMO.  

4
 Uncle Derek 16 Aug 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> You have certainly pulled out all the stops with a quest for a complex explanation.

>  It doesn't come across in any way as a person under duress, and the person filming it drops the camera to rush in an help, suggesting they're a friend rather than some more complex explanation.

>

When I saw the block drop, I stopped watching the video  

> If you are genuinely concerned that what you suggest is the case, I suggest you report the video to the police.  

Good luck with that one, the Police are probably sharing the video

> > But the fact that at least 10 people on UKC and you like it, is a sad indictment.

> I think it's well established that different people's schadenfreude vs empathy levels are different.  [........} That's the sad indictment IMO.  

I have found stuff like that amusing, but I should not, and am trying to improve myself, and I just assumed from my mental picture of you, that you would not. Its a shaky pedestal I have put you on there. 

Anyroads up, I do not think we should take pleasure in other peoples suffering, as on purely selfish level, it is bad for us, it is a negative.

8
 wintertree 16 Aug 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

I take it you’re not a fan of You’ve Been Framed then.  I found that a lot more disturbing because much of it was accidents happening to people going about normal life.  It’s more of a “health and safety horror reel” for life. 

But I can’t bring myself to feel bad for stupid people who do stupid things and suffer stupid consequences.  I’ve done stupid things and suffered stupid consequences before, so I’m not saying this from some perceived moral high ground.  The experiences probably helped steer me away from being a stupid person.   Perhaps this video helps some others in that way.

1
In reply to wintertree:

> I take it you’re not a fan of You’ve Been Framed then.  I found that a lot more disturbing because much of it was accidents happening to people going about normal life.  It’s more of a “health and safety horror reel” for life. 

Yes, but nobody ever gets properly hurt; it is just slapstick comedy really, perhaps a warning that things could have been worse. No comparison with excruciating pain, fear and life-changing injury.

1
 wintertree 16 Aug 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, but nobody ever gets properly hurt; it is just slapstick comedy really, perhaps a warning that things could have been worse. No comparison with excruciating pain, fear and life-changing injury.

It got progressively worse towards the end.  A common one would be some skier going at speed hitting a tree with a leg going either side and their groin impacting the tree at 15 mph or more.  The original wall video said it was a broken ankle, but I couldn’t find the original.  I’d rather take the broken ankle.

 Uncle Derek 16 Aug 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> I take it you’re not a fan of You’ve Been Framed then.  

No, never liked it, always struck me as slightly cruel, laughing at, rather than with people. Oddly Dogs seem to find being laughed at disturbing.

Calling other people stupid is a negative, it is generally used by people trying to make themselves look better. An easy trap to fall into, but one to be avoided.

2
In reply to wintertree:

> It got progressively worse towards the end.  A common one would be some skier going at speed hitting a tree with a leg going either side and their groin impacting the tree at 15 mph or more.  The original wall video said it was a broken ankle, but I couldn’t find the original.  I’d rather take the broken ankle.

I would have  assumed that they would never have shown anything that actually resulted in any serious injury or lasting pain. Just ouch moments that make you squirm.

The guy's lower leg looked completely crushed.

 Harry Jarvis 16 Aug 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> You have certainly pulled out all the stops with a quest for a complex explanation.

>  It doesn't come across in any way as a person under duress, and the person filming it drops the camera to rush in an help, suggesting they're a friend rather than some more complex explanation.

> If I was trying to escape captors who surrounded me, were egging me on and filming me, would I repeatedly try and kick the middle panel out of a concrete wall or would I have a go at climbing it?  

It is a pretty grim video. Trying to defend it does you no favours. 

3
 henwardian 16 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

As far as I understand it, the dopamine hit of getting likes and shares and so on is the main motivator for posting or reposting stuff. So the reason they do it is because you* and others watch and like this stuff, presumably.

* As far as I understand the algorithm, it keep a close eye on what garners your attention and feeds more of that stuff your way.

 ExiledScot 16 Aug 2022
In reply to henwardian:

Have a like, a little chemical high from me! The dis/like button here isn't really any better, it's prompts controversy, where those chasing a reaction can measure their efforts. 

1
In reply to Sharp:

> Don't report it and don't censor it. Were soft enough. We have the privilege to live in a world where we're free to close our eyes and set our content filters any way we please. Do we need to make that choice for others?

I disagree with that point. Your Grandma and others of that generation became tough and resilient through hard experience, not watching it vicariously and having a laugh about it. There's a world of difference between seeing someone killed or seriously injured in a video and seeing the actual event with all the pain, suffering, sounds, sights and smells of the reality.

Exposure to beheadings and people getting a kicking doesn't prevent people from getting 'soft', it simply makes them indifferent to the suffering of others, and in some cases start enjoying seeing violence, and wanting to perpetrate it. Think of IS and their 'torture porn' and burning people alive in cages. It was an effective recruiting tool.

At a much lower level we have people who think being obnoxious, carrying out low level assaults on the public or doing close passes on cyclists etc. is socially acceptable. I think part of that stems from conditioning by social media, (without understanding the reality of what they do and the impact on others) that it's fun to do it.

That's why the rest of us love seeing them get a kicking or getting their leg smashed by a concrete panel when it doesn't go to plan...

Post edited at 11:10
Clauso 16 Aug 2022
In reply to broken spectre:

I abhor violence and I'll punch any c##t who thinks otherwise.

 wintertree 16 Aug 2022
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> It is a pretty grim video. Trying to defend it does you no favours. 

I’m not trying to “defend it” - what does they even mean?  It’s my citation of the video as schnaffenruede that’s being rounded on.  Good.  Disagreeing with another poster’s interpretation of the video is not defending it.

I’m in the majority in my take going off the votes on my original post (2:1).  Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t help, doesn’t mean I don’t feel sorry for the person with the mashed ankle.  

Looks like people are complicated.

Post edited at 12:02
5
In reply to Ridge:

> At a much lower level we have people who think being obnoxious, carrying out low level assaults on the public or doing close passes on cyclists etc. is socially acceptable. 

> That's why the rest of us love seeing them get a kicking or getting their leg smashed by a concrete panel when it doesn't go to plan...

If we knew he was doing real harm, then I can just about see how you might get some sort of perverted pleasure in his pain and horrific injury. But we don't; it could just be some old derelict wall.

What I would say is that the video holds a horrible fascination, but I feel uneasy watching it.

Post edited at 12:28
In reply to wintertree:

> I’m not trying to “defend it” - what does they even mean?  It’s my citation of the video as schnaffenruede that’s being rounded on.  Good.  Disagreeing with another poster’s interpretation of the video is not defending it.

I'm not sure it's your citation that's being rounded upon. I shared Uncle Derek's surprise that you, a user who comes across on UKC as intelligent, analytical and thoughtful, would choose to become the person who shared links to a video of somebody getting their leg crushed by concrete, whatever the scenario in which it happened. When folk of your calibre take part in that type of behaviour, it somehow feels worse than a teenager sending the link to their mates via WhatsApp.

5
 Stichtplate 16 Aug 2022
In reply to rj_townsend:

Can’t help thinking people are being a little harsh on Wintertree and overly squeamish in general. 
 

Did nobody else catch the recent ITV footage of an HGV driver pilling into the back of stationary traffic while playing on his mobile? Three dead, undoubtedly violent, and pretty explicit (the dead family dog on the central reservation got me). Was ITV wrong to broadcast?
 

A cautionary tale can provide a valuable (and pain free) lesson along the lines of “play stupid games, win stupid prizes”. Videos like this can also inoculate the uninitiated to real life, shit hits fan situations. Nobody watch the video and think about how they’d help the hapless wall kicker?

3
 wintertree 16 Aug 2022
In reply to rj_townsend:

Thanks - I appreciate your post, it's a much clearer point.

c.f. an unsolicited WhatsApp, I'd hoped the thread title, the content of the OP that I relied to and the rider on my message made it clear it was going to be a link people might not want to click.  If there's a strong feeling against that I can report it and ask to strip the link (but leave the dislikes).

As I said in my first post, I want to agree with the OP's view but I have my limits.  I'm in the majority with those who are motivated enough to press a like/dislike button on it.

I think that's specifically relevant to this discussion thread, I wouldn't normally be sharing such links.  It's easy for people to tut-tut but the line is not so clear after all.

From my perspective, lots to think about both for myself and for those surprised by the like/dislike ratio.

1
 henwardian 16 Aug 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Have a like, a little chemical high from me! The dis/like button here isn't really any better, it's prompts controversy, where those chasing a reaction can measure their efforts. 

Aww, thanks
I have the like and dislike buttons turned off so I won't see it but I do get a happy feeling when people reply to me. Replies help me feel like I'm part of a community who are interested in what I have to say and not all alone, shunned and ignored in an infinite, emotionless void..... crap, the hit is wearing off, quick, reply to me again!

In reply to Stichtplate:

> Can’t help thinking people are being a little harsh on Wintertree and overly squeamish in general. 

>  

> Did nobody else catch the recent ITV footage of an HGV driver pilling into the back of stationary traffic while playing on his mobile? Three dead, undoubtedly violent, and pretty explicit (the dead family dog on the central reservation got me). Was ITV wrong  to broadcast?

I strongly suspect that peoples' reasons for watching and reactions to the crash footage and the wall kicking video are very different.

In reply to Stichtplate:

> Did nobody else catch the recent ITV footage of an HGV driver pilling into the back of stationary traffic while playing on his mobile? Three dead, undoubtedly violent, and pretty explicit (the dead family dog on the central reservation got me). Was ITV wrong to broadcast?

The broadcast of a “don’t text and drive - these are the consequences” video is so entirely different to the sharing of a voyeuristic “yeehaa, watch this bloke get mashed” clip that I can only assume you’re being deliberately obtuse here. 

In the context of this thread I accept that Wintertree’s sharing of the leg clip may not have been intended in the fashion that I and others have interpreted. However, it’s difficult to see what possible good can be achieved by giving clips of that type the oxygen of onward distribution.

In reply to wintertree:

> Thanks - I appreciate your post, it's a much clearer point.

> c.f. an unsolicited WhatsApp, I'd hoped the thread title, the content of the OP that I relied to and the rider on my message made it clear it was going to be a link people might not want to click.  If there's a strong feeling against that I can report it and ask to strip the link (but leave the dislikes).

> As I said in my first post, I want to agree with the OP's view but I have my limits.  I'm in the majority with those who are motivated enough to press a like/dislike button on it.

> I think that's specifically relevant to this discussion thread, I wouldn't normally be sharing such links.  It's easy for people to tut-tut but the line is not so clear after all.

> From my perspective, lots to think about both for myself and for those surprised by the like/dislike ratio.

I’d suggest leaving the thread as-is - asking for removal just throws in confusion. You’ve said above that it’s not the type of clip you’d normally share so it obviously not a hidden hobby

 deepsoup 16 Aug 2022
In reply to rj_townsend:

Regarding the "chav-vs-wall" clip..

That video has been knocking around on the internet in various forms since almost as soon as it became possible to share a video online.  It's highly likely that the lad's leg was broken, but "horrific injuries" may well be overstating it somewhat.  (It's by no means clear that a 'traumatic amputation' has taken place, for example, as some here seem to be assuming.)

When I first saw the clip in an earlier form the text that went with it suggested it was a bit of instant karma, and that those lads were breaking in to a concrete sectional garage at the time.  (I'll see if I can find a pic - it rang true for me, the 'wall' in the pic looks more like one of those than a concrete fence - it has a continuous base at the bottom instead of just at the posts, and the posts are closer together than they usually would be for a boundary fence.) 

I don't think it takes a ton of imagination to see how anyone who has suffered from the kind of vandalism and/or theft they're engaged in might enjoy a little schadenfreude at their expense.  Shameful* though it may be, it's a fairly normal human response.

*(Hence the literal meaning of that useful German word - shameful joy).

Pic:

Post edited at 17:59

In reply to thread:

Just because someone posts a link, you don't have to click on it. I chose not to, I'm not squeamish (more the opposite actually), just decided I didn't need to look at that type of video - that it wasn't going to enhance my life and that it wasn't necessary to be able to follow the thread.

1
 Enty 16 Aug 2022
In reply to all:

If you could press ctrl-alt-delete in the next 20 seconds and it would guarantee Putin's head would explode all over the people sat around him, would you press ctrl-alt-delete?

E

1
 Uncle Derek 16 Aug 2022
In reply to Enty:

> If you could press ctrl-alt-delete in the next 20 seconds and it would guarantee Putin's head would explode all over the people sat around him, would you press ctrl-alt-delete?

> E

Absolutely from me, but not sure where you are coming from, that is not violence as entertainment.
Oddly I thought about you on Sunday Morning, I was pedalling up Crown Point and wondered how that slope compares to Ventoux, and thought, I bet Enty would know.

1
 Enty 17 Aug 2022
In reply to Uncle Derek:

The hard bit of Crown Point is 900m long and averages 9%.

The hard bit of Ventoux is 10km long and averages 9.5%

E

 Uncle Derek 17 Aug 2022
In reply to Enty:

Crikey. A bit more training then.

Clauso 17 Aug 2022
In reply to Enty:

> If you could press ctrl-alt-delete in the next 20 seconds and it would guarantee Putin's head would explode all over the people sat around him, would you press ctrl-alt-delete?

I'd press it repeatedly... In fact, I'd program a script to do it repeatedly.

Just to be sure, to be sure.

1
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> A bit surprised at the you, it does not fit the mental picture I have of you.

Wintertree has always struck me as someone who doesn't suffer fools gladly, and who would be opposed to mindless vandalism.

The video shows a fool suffering as a result of their own mindless vandalism. I can understand the sense of schadenfreude; a comeuppance for a foolish vandal.

 65 18 Aug 2022
In reply to Enty:

> If you could press ctrl-alt-delete in the next 20 seconds and it would guarantee Putin's head would explode all over the people sat around him, would you press ctrl-alt-delete?

Throw in Farage, Banks, Johnson, Rees-Mogg & The Trump family (for starters) and it's a massive yes from me, in fact I just did it in case it worked. I wouldn't share videos or whack off to it though.

3
 wintertree 18 Aug 2022
In reply to rj_townsend:

> I’d suggest leaving the thread as-is - asking for removal just throws in confusion.

It’s gained a “show spoiler” mechanic that needs clicking to show the link.  Elegant.

@Paul Phillips, perhaps I missed it - is there documentation on how posters can wrap content in a “show spoiler” tag?


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