UKC

/ What to do with Beatles?

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Eric9Points - on 09 Feb 2018

Not the fab four but the two British IS arseholes who are now in US custody.

 

 

There is a story that they have both had their British citizenship revoked. If so, that's a smart move in my view. Let others claim their pound of flesh. Keeping that pair locked up in British jail for decades to come would risk the next bunch of animals with a grudge against humanity taking UK citizens hostage in order to get them released.

DerwentDiluted - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

Life in solitary with Ob-li-di Ob-li-da on eternal loop has a poetic justice.

Flinticus - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

I think if they simply vanished into the secret network of US sponsored detention centres, I would not be signing any petitions to release them or give them a fair trail.  

3
GrahamD - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

Put them on trial, same as any other British citizen accused of criminal acts.

3
Clarence on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

If the reports are true they are not British Citizens so we could hand them over to another authority quite happily. Maybe the Peshmerga would like them?

1
Wiley Coyote2 - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

If they are in US custody and no longer UK citizen, not our problem

 

1
baron - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

Aine Davis, another member of the Fab Four is serving a seven year jail sentence in Turkey.

Hopefully the other two will suffer a far worse fate.

Rob Exile Ward on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

I'm not happy that their citizenship has been revoked. It isn't in the gift of the government. 

I would be happy to see them rot the rest of their lives in a UK prison.

2
Rampikino - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

What to do?

Stop giving them titles that sensationalise or glamorise them for starters.  They are murderers.

Phil59 - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

And we pay to keep them in prison????

I hope not.

wintertree - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

Cases like this leave me torn between...

  • A deep seated feeling that we have to be better than the enemy, more humane, more honest, more transparent, fully committed to human rights and just plain decent.
  • Wanting to see their eyeballs pecked out by crows whilst they dangle pathetically from Tower Bridge.

Perhaps there’s a happy medium in letting the Americans have them, or even better the Israelis.  Or the families of their victims.

2
Eric9Points - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

While I understand your reservations about withdrawal of citizenship I'm prepared to make an exception in this case. I agree that it could be seen as a dangerous precedent but at the same time can't a country behave like a family and in extreme cases say "you're not one of us"?

2
Eric9Points - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Yes, perhaps letting some of those they abused have 15 minutes of undisturbed time with them would be a reckoning of sorts.

 

Probably more civilised than whatever the US have planned for them. Not that I'm that bothered in this case.

3
Bogwalloper - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

I know. Let's do something Sharia to them.......................................................oh hold on a minute.......

W

Crewey-Rob on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

I think closure is impossible in these extreme cases. Best to make a point of living a full life regardless.

Post edited at 21:54
Rob Exile Ward on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

No, it can't. What secures our future - and that of our children, and our grandchildren, is the rule of law. Lose that, and they win. 

This isn't some academic argument; this happened in the 30s, in Germany; it happened in the. US in the 50s.

2
Wainers44 - on 09 Feb 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

> Put them on trial, same as any other British citizen accused of criminal acts.

But please a trial in USA then at least I don't have to pay for it. Bet they look great in orange....

Wyn - on 10 Feb 2018

"Kill them all, god knows his own."

 

1
wercat on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

The ICJ is the only proper way

1
skog on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I'm not happy that their citizenship has been revoked. It isn't in the gift of the government. 

According to the Guardian, it can be:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/09/victims-relatives-welcome-capture-of-british-isis-fighters-the-beatles

However, there are questions about whether or not the two men still retain British nationality. One US official told the New York Times that the British government had revoked both men’s British citizenship. The Guardian understands that this is correct.

British home secretaries have the power to do this if they are satisfied it would be “conducive to the public good”.

 

If they remain British, they should face British justice. The state shouldn't be able to make exceptions to this just because it wants to, that's a very dangerous road to go down.

However, if they are no longer British, it isn't really our problem - and while we should support everyone being treated as humanely as possible everywhere, these people are far enough down the list of priorities that we aren't going to have time to get round to caring about them.

FactorXXX - on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to Wyn:

> "Kill them all, god knows his own."

Isn't that one of the driving forces that makes them do the things they do?

wercat on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to skog:

Why should they not go the way of those who supervised Srebeniza and Sarajevo?

skog on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to wercat:

Facing justice in the international courts? Sorry, I missed your post; yeah, that's a reasonable outcome too, if it can happen.

 
Wyn - on 10 Feb 2018
In reply to FactorXXX:

Everyone's a winner then. I'm happy and they're happy.

Timmd on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to Flinticus:

> I think if they simply vanished into the secret network of US sponsored detention centres, I would not be signing any petitions to release them or give them a fair trail.  

I think we lose a certain moral standpoint to make a fuss from, if another country does anything to somebody from the UK, and we are happy for that to happen.

To kinda demonstrate that I know how you feel, I couldn't get to sleep one night until I'd worked out a way to give a man responsible for a friend's PTSD, some PTSD of his own, but I still think we can't let people vanish like you describe, even if we do wish for bad things for certain people, or don't much care what happens to them. It's not how we need to live in this world.  

Post edited at 16:01
1
blurty - on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to baron:

> Aine Davis, another member of the Fab Four is serving a seven year jail sentence in Turkey.

> Hopefully the other two will suffer a far worse fate.

You've not read 'Midnight express' then?

baron - on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to blurty:

Yes, hopefully reality is worse than the book/film!

Ridge - on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> If they are in US custody and no longer UK citizen, not our problem

I'd agree with that. They've probably killed a number of nationalities, including US citizens.

We can probably get assurances from the US that they won't be put in cages and set on fire,  the US have appropriate facilities to house them, we won't spend a fortune on a drawn out trial that will attract the worst of the legal profession out to make a name for themselves, we won't have pro-jihadi demonstrations by shouty beardy blokes outside the court given publicity in the national media, and - more importantly -  on conviction the US will put them in jail for the rest of their lives.

EDIT: As an aside, do the UK even have any legal mechanism for charging them for crimes committed in Syria?

Post edited at 21:52

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