UKC

5000 new routes

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 Andy Hardy 14 Aug 2021

Can't see a thread on here about Gary Gibson's 5000th new route so I thought I'd start one

Amazing achievement, consider my cap doffed!

 Mick Ward 14 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

And mine. As well as doing new routes elsewhere, Gary's made a huge contribution to UK climbing. Most of us must have done dozens of his routes all over the country. He's given us great days on the crags.

Understandably most people have little idea of how physically demanding it can be doing new routes. And there's always the nagging fear that one day you might not make it back. Gary has dug so much deeper than anyone else I can think of. And to reach his ultimate goal in such difficult circumstances... you'd need to have a heart of stone not to feel for him and be happy for him.

Mick

 Martin Hore 14 Aug 2021
In reply to Mick Ward:

OK - I'll be controversial. I've never met Gary but acknowledge his amazing and dedicated contribution to UK climbing. Most of his routes are beyond my grade limit, but Wishful Thinking, Hawkwing,  and The Laughing Cavaliers, among others, are routes that hold a special place in my memory. And I've benefitted hugely from his work on guidebooks, especially Pembroke Range East. But I can't help thinking that I might prefer we were celebrating 3000 new routes today rather than 5000, with more emphasis on quality than quantity. Alongside the above special routes, I'm remembering climbing Seven Deadly Sins a couple of years ago - a classic trad route now compromised, and in my view spoilt, by bolts placed, I understand by Gary, to squeeze in one of his 5000 at Harpur Hill. 

So I'll add my thanks and congratulations, with just a small reservation.

Martin 

In reply to Martin Hore:

Live and let live, you don't have to climb the route you choose to dislike/disapprove of. Many of these "poor" routes and crags are very popular, keeping the good crags quieter for those with higher standards.

Well done Gary. 

 mark s 14 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'm good friends with Gary and this is a massive achievement for him, especially what he has gone through recently.

Very happy for him and what he has done for UK climbing 

 steveriley 14 Aug 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

It’s actually quite apt that number 5000 is at Harpur Hill I think. For a long time I dismissed the place (and plenty more Peak easy/mid grade lime). There’s some great routes there, Perched Block Buttress, where I think #5000 is, has some quality (long!) routes. I had a good chat with Gary a month or two ago and got a real sense of custodianship from him about the place.

That said, there’s a couple of stinkers that should have remained blissfully undrilled 😁

Anyway, chapeau!

 Martin Hore 14 Aug 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Live and let live, you don't have to climb the route you choose to dislike/disapprove of. Many of these "poor" routes and crags are very popular, keeping the good crags quieter for those with higher standards.

Fair enough in most cases. But you can't now climb the line of Seven Deadly Sins in it's original trad state without passing right by the bolts on the route I'm disapproving of.

But I guess, by default, Harpur Hill must now be considered an entirely sport venue. Sad for some of us, but perhaps inevitable given the demand for mid-grade sport.

I appreciate that Gary has invested an almost unbelievable amount of time, and quite a considerable sum of money, in establishing his 5000 routes, and has done loads to promote mid-grade sport climbing along the way.

So I'm happy to join the congratulations.

Martin

In reply to Andy Hardy:

My climbing over the last 40 years has been punctuated by Gary’s routes. First clip up on threads on Majolica (E3 5c) , first chain lower offs on Prognosis (E2 5c) and Diagnosis (E4 6a) , my first f7a Clarion Call (7a) then loads of great sport climbs where the clips are just out of my reach 😂

Well done Gary

 Michael Gordon 15 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Doesn't seem that long ago he did his 4000th! Where did he find the other 1000?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

More to the mods than anyone else...

Could there be a filter option in your logbook so you could filter by first ascentionist? I'd love to be able to look through and see which of the routes I've done were put up by different people. It would be interesting to see how many of the routes I've done are one of Gary's. 

Post edited at 10:25
 Cobra_Head 16 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Ditto, we were climbing right next to the 5,000th yesterday.

Cheers,

Gary, we've made a donation to you bolt fund.

Well done GG! Amazing work.

Can we have a UKC GG ticklist of all 5,000 routes please?

 Iamgregp 16 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Gary has made a huge, huge contribution to sport climbing in the UK and beyond.  The amount of time, blood, sweat, tears (and smears!) and (I imagine) money he has put in to achieving this puts the rest of us mere mortals to shame.

He's a bona fide rock superstar.

 The Pylon King 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I think Martin Crocker is upwards of 15,000.

 Andy Hardy 17 Aug 2021
In reply to The Pylon King:

> I think Martin Crocker is upwards of 15,000.

Mind. Blown.

 Kemics 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

5000 new routes is a crazy achievement and contribution to climbing. Ive been climbing keenly for around 10 years, some periods getting out weekly, if not daily. And i dont think ive ever even climbed 5000 routes... let alone making first ascents. Ive equipped one or two routes and it's shockingly grubby and physical work. 

 remus 17 Aug 2021
In reply to The Pylon King:

> I think Martin Crocker is upwards of 15,000.

For real? How'd you count it? For reference if he'd put up every route at stanage, burbage, higgar, froggatt, curbar, baslow, millstone, lawrencefield and yarncliffe that'd only get you to ~5k routes (and knowing some of Martin's stuff they'll take a lot more cleaning and logistics than your typical grit route!)

No doubt he's incredibly prolific, but 15k new routes is another level...

 Moacs 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

It's also worth bearing in mind that this equates to (guesstimate) 5,000 x ?10 x ?£10 (bolt, hanger, glue, drill bits etc) = half a million quid; much of which came from Gary's own pocket

In reply to Moacs:

> It's also worth bearing in mind that this equates to (guesstimate) 5,000 x ?10 x ?£10 (bolt, hanger, glue, drill bits etc) = half a million quid; much of which came from Gary's own pocket

I presume he's included the many trad routes he has done in the total.

 fatboyslimfast 17 Aug 2021
In reply to The Pylon King:

say MC has had a career spanning 40 years, thats a new route every day 365 days a year for 40 years...without a day off/shit weather/injury/cleaning time/tides/holiday/kids or anything interfering with that productivity....really?

 Offwidth 17 Aug 2021
In reply to fatboyslimfast:

That's not how things work. If someone talented and prolific for decades like Martin finds new areas with a lot of lower grade routes he could easily be ticking off a hundred plus in a day. I've no idea how many FA's he has but Pylon King is more likely to than most. Don''t forget Gary's bolted routes can take a lot of preparation.

Edit: Who's Who (2008) had him at 15,000 climbs in 4 decades which seems high for me for new routes then but low for all routes climbed. I'm pretty sure I've climbed 5000 seperate routes in a decade twice, only being at the bumbly end of punterdom and whilst holding down a job in academia.

Post edited at 12:48
In reply to Offwidth:

Just where are these clean new crags with hundreds  of lower grade routes available in the UK that need no preparation etc... I am intrigued!!!!

Bit of overkill saying hundred a day.

Both are prolific new routers--GG having done some impressive development in MC's backyard.

Both put alot of effort into guides etc.

 fatboyslimfast 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

How can you tick 'hundred plus' in a day, has he found a new stanage?

12 hr climbing day, a brand new route rate at 8.5 per hour.....

Im not denying MC has  been a driving force for new routes from the peak down to the south west for years. 

Post edited at 12:47
 broc 17 Aug 2021
In reply to fatboyslimfast:

No idea on the numbers MC has climbed, but 15000 would not be so surprising especially if boulder problems.

His new website makes interesting reading. 

 Offwidth 17 Aug 2021
In reply to neilh:

I don''t know but I'm saying its not impossible. The point I was making about a hundred in a day is it is possible to clear over a quarter of that year's average quota in a day, if you find a big new collection at lower grades. Just ten days at ten a day does the same. Stanage is huge so an unfair comparison: The Popular End has about a hundred named routes sub severe.

If I had to guess, before Pylon Kings comment, I'd say he wouldn't be far behind Gary on FAs, since he's been active in many areas with new developments, especially in CC guide areas, for a long time.

In reply to Offwidth:

I really doubt that either were interested in lower grade vs style routes …..not really their thing  

once watched MC try GGsAlways the Sun at stackpole. Both have impressive arm spans. 

 Offwidth 17 Aug 2021
In reply to fatboyslimfast:

It's an average of 3 new routes a day for 100 new routing days a year for 50 years. I'd agree it seems high but its not impossible.

 fatboyslimfast 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

sorry were doing a bit of a UKC hijack thing here, didnt realise MC was as old as he is tbh

 Offwidth 17 Aug 2021
In reply to fatboyslimfast:n

Maybe it includes his new bouldering.? His new website is very timely whatever.

https://www.martincrockerclimbing.com/

Talking of hijacks I forgot to congratulate Gary... well done and keep going.

Post edited at 13:32
 RM199 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

What an amazing achievement. Well done Gary.

what a service to British climbing to with so many in accessible grades. Brilliant 

Oh and his book is cracking too. Very amusing

 johncook 17 Aug 2021
In reply to Adam Perrett:

I have more modest aims. Can we have a list of route 1, route 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 and 5000.

I have done route 4000, but the others may be a small challenge!

Just incredible, my heartfelt thanks go out to you Gary if you’re reading this.

 Gary Gibson 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:thank you so much, put towards ring lower offs at Harpur Hill

 Gary Gibson 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Twiggy Diablo:thanks for your comments 

 Gary Gibson 30 Aug 2021
In reply to steveriley:agreed, sometimes a little too enthusiastic but the previous comments about Seven Deadly Sins are nonsense unless you traverse too far left!

 Gary Gibson 30 Aug 2021
In reply to RM199:glad you liked the book, down to my last few now

 Gary Gibson 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kemics:I’ve actually climbed about 17,600 routes in my life in total and 5,000 new ones!

 Gary Gibson 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Adam Perrett:I am going to post it on my Facebook page when I get chance

 Gary Gibson 16 Sep 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:Hawkwing is not mine

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Great to see so many people acknowledging Gary's huge contribution to our sport.

A few years ago when I was attending the BMC National Council as chairman of the NW Area I suggested that it was about time that Gary received the recognition that was due to him. I was hoping that the BMC might use its not inconsiderable influence with the powers that be to propose his inclusion in the next honours list

Sadly the discussion became then became mired in the bitter recriminations of a few old men with enduring grudges against Gary because of his various youthful indiscretions.

But really.. these are massively outweighed by all that he has done since then

There are thousands of us on here who have very many reasons to be grateful for the huge amount of enjoyable climbing that Gary has brought to us.

SO COME ON BMC! 

GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND FIND A WAY TO REFLECT THE APPRECIATION THAT SO MANY OF YOUR MEMBERS HAVE FOR ALL THAT GARY HAS DONE FOR UK CLIMBING!

 Martin Hore 21:44 Tue
In reply to Gary Gibson:

> Hawkwing is not mine

Interesting. My first edition Rockfax Western Grit says that it is (1978) - or are there two Gary Gibsons?

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

> Interesting. My first edition Rockfax Western Grit says that it is (1978) - or are there two Gary Gibsons?

> Martin

It's displayed on the route description page of the site as we speak. See below:

22m. Update Climb Info

Rockfax Description
An fine route up an elegant buttress. Start at the left arete then spiral up and right following cracks to the opposite arete. Place small wires before following the parallel diagonal cracks to an exposed and awkward finale back on the left-hand arete. Excellent throughout and very varied climbing. © Rockfax

FA. Gary Gibson 1978.

 jon 11:52 Wed
In reply to Martin Hore:

I'm confused... so is it 5000 or 4999 or 5001? 

 Offwidth 12:27 Wed
In reply to colin struthers:

Anyone can propose someone to go on the UK honours list. Why haven't you done it yourself already, given you knew the treacle of BMC politics? I'd have thought his very understated professional governance contributions are significant in honours terms as well. 

 Martin Hore 12:42 Wed
In reply to jon:

> I'm confused... so is it 5000 or 4999 or 5001? 

My first thought was "Gary should know". But then, if you've put up 5000 new routes perhaps you can be forgiven for not remembering all of them - especially from more than 40 years ago. 

 mike smash 12:44 Wed
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Indeed - well done Gary!

As the years go by many of the crags and routes Gary developed have improved enormously.  From being critical of some of the "filthy holes in the ground that have been developed", now many have cleaned up fantastically and along with many others love many of these venues.

UK climbing would be less diverse and more crowded without his incredible contribution.

Thanks Gary

 Gary Gibson 14:17 Wed
In reply to Martin Hore:Al Simpson did the first ascent with Dave Jones, I did carrion 

 Gary Gibson 14:19 Wed
In reply to Martin Hore:I have a complete database of every new route and others I have done and very complete diaries

 Gary Gibson 14:30 Wed
In reply to The Pylon King:I have the deepest respect for Martin and the support he gave myself and family during a very difficult time after a serious accident in the Wye valley, but such a blanket statement  is unnecessary: I am not in any form of competition with Martin

In reply to Gary Gibson:

> I have the deepest respect for Martin and the support he gave myself and family during a very difficult time after a serious accident in the Wye valley, but such a blanket statement  is unnecessary

He only supplied a bit of information (hopefully correct!). Don't see what's wrong with that, but it would be nice if it was verified; I don't think it would've occurred to many on here that anyone had done anything like that number.

 Gary Gibson 15:18 Wed
In reply to Michael Gordon:I agree but he is not Martin’s advocate which I suppose he should have said rather than make a blanket statement?

 Gary Gibson 15:20 Wed
In reply to Martin Hore:closer to 55-60 years

 Gary Gibson 15:23 Wed
In reply to Martin Hore:that’s Rockfax for you, they seem to have the left the historical importance out, or got it wrong and I was there when it was done!

Post edited at 15:26
 Gary Gibson 15:28 Wed
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:and I don’t like  Hawkwing even if Lemmy was from my own town: Al and Dave loved them

 Gary Gibson 15:32 Wed
In reply to Michael Gordon:kalymnos, south east Wales, peak quarries, including Masson Lees, Intake Quarry, Llanymynech, Clwyd limestone, Pembroke, mid Wales, ban-y Gor, Harpur Hill etc etc 

 Gary Gibson 16:19 Wed
In reply to mike smash:that was always my assessment, take for instance Masson Lees, Intake quarry, Harpur Hill, Smalldale, Llanymynech and many of the quarries in South Wales etc

 Gary Gibson 16:21 Wed

I. Dan Hawkwing on which the route name was based In reply to Gary Gibson:

 Gary Gibson 17:31 Wed
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:UKC has it correct as Al Simpson

 Gary Gibson 18:06 Wed
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:UKC has it as Al Simpson

 GrahamD 19:46 Wed
In reply to colin struthers:

> Sadly the discussion became then became mired in the bitter recriminations of a few old men with enduring grudges against Gary because of his various youthful indiscretions.

> But really.. these are massively outweighed by all that he has done since then

That doesn't excuse them, though.  And it's not just youthful indiscretion.  I don't know GG and can't really hold a grudge but I can still see bolts reachable from classic VSs like Questor are not acceptable.

> There are thousands of us on here who have very many reasons to be grateful for the huge amount of enjoyable climbing that Gary has brought to us.

Well yes, me too.  But there are shades of grey.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

> UKC has it as Al Simpson


T'would appear they have corrected it.

 FactorXXX 07:20 Thu
In reply to GrahamD:

> That doesn't excuse them, though.  And it's not just youthful indiscretion.  I don't know GG and can't really hold a grudge but I can still see bolts reachable from classic VSs like Questor are not acceptable.

Questor at Wyndcliff? 

 Gary Gibson 10:45 Thu
In reply to FactorXXX:I’ve never bolted anything there

 Offwidth 11:20 Thu
In reply to Gary Gibson:

Touche!

The Pat Littlejohn OBE thread:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/pat_littlejohn_obe-277753

My views at the close of that thread are unchanged: I won't apply for a royal gong for anyone nor likely accept one but if we ever get to the point that public contributions we make in life can be measured by the state, half fairly, you would be up there deserving one.

Post edited at 11:22
 FactorXXX 11:27 Thu
In reply to Gary Gibson:

> I’ve never bolted anything there

Didn't think there were any bolts near Questor and rather doubted that you would place any in such a location.
Maybe there's another classic VS named Questor that is being referred to? 

 Gary Gibson 13:45 Thu
In reply to FactorXXX:he’s confused it with something else?

 FactorXXX 14:14 Thu
In reply to Gary Gibson:

> he’s confused it with something else?

Maybe, but it needs clarifying by GrahamD as to what route he is referring to because as it stands, people might incorrectly think that you've placed clippable bolts alongside a classic VS.

 GrahamD 18:08 Thu
In reply to FactorXXX:

A senior moment ! I meant Evasor, at Stoney.

 FactorXXX 18:43 Thu
In reply to GrahamD:

> A senior moment ! I meant Evasor, at Stoney.

Fair enough and thanks for clarifying as I thought that perhaps I was having a senior moment for not realising that Questor had had bolts placed nearby. 🧗‍♂️👴

 Mick Ward 19:49 Thu
In reply to colin struthers:

> Great to see so many people acknowledging Gary's huge contribution to our sport.

> A few years ago when I was attending the BMC National Council as chairman of the NW Area I suggested that it was about time that Gary received the recognition that was due to him. I was hoping that the BMC might use its not inconsiderable influence with the powers that be to propose his inclusion in the next honours list

> Sadly the discussion became then became mired in the bitter recriminations of a few old men with enduring grudges against Gary because of his various youthful indiscretions.

> But really.. these are massively outweighed by all that he has done since then

> There are thousands of us on here who have very many reasons to be grateful for the huge amount of enjoyable climbing that Gary has brought to us.

> SO COME ON BMC! 

> GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND FIND A WAY TO REFLECT THE APPRECIATION THAT SO MANY OF YOUR MEMBERS HAVE FOR ALL THAT GARY HAS DONE FOR UK CLIMBING!


Totally agree with this. In different ways, Gary and Chris Craggs have given so many people so many great days out. In my view, both should be recognised. Yes of course Gary's made mistakes; nobody's arguing otherwise, least of all him. If you don't believe me, read his book. He's been brutally honest. It's unwise to regard our heroes as saints; put bluntly, they weren't. We all get it wrong from time to time. Gary has owned up to his sins, more so than any other climber I've known. As you rightly say, those sins have been massively outweighed by all that he's done since.

Few people will ever know just how mentally and physically draining it is to go out on your own, ab into scary places and prise off loose blocks for hour after hour. When you're doing it not even for new routes but simply to revive neglected areas, well, if that's not altruism, what the hell is?

I'm no lover of the establishment - or awards. But it's ridiculous that Gary hasn't had an MBE or an OBE. More fitting would be a BMC award - simply given to those who have given a heck of a lot to climbing. Chris should get one too. And there will be other worthy contenders. But it should start with those two.

It would be like winning the Boardman-Tasker. It's not Joe Public. It's your peers. It's other climbers simply saying, "Thanks for all you've done."

I'd respectfully ask the BMC to think seriously about this.

Mick

 john arran 20:14 Thu
In reply to Mick Ward:

I think that's a fantastic idea, Mick.

While still respected by enough of Joe Public not to be dismissed, the royal awards system has nevertheless been very much devalued, to the point where the first instinct of some, on hearing of an award (admittedly mostly peerages,) would be to wonder how much the holder had donated to a political party.

The idea of a 'lifetime's contribution to climbing' (as opposed to 'lifetime's achievement in climbing') award I think would be an excellent way to recognise long-term altruistic involvement.

In addition to the two excellent candidates you mentioned, I'd say Ian Dunn would be also worthy of consideration.

Edit: I'm ashamed to admit that the names of no female climbers have come to mind as potential recipients of such an award. Anyone care to put me straight?

Post edited at 20:18
 FactorXXX 21:27 Thu
In reply to john arran:

> Edit: I'm ashamed to admit that the names of no female climbers have come to mind as potential recipients of such an award. Anyone care to put me straight?

Emma Alsford possibly?

 Darron 23:11 Thu
In reply to Mick Ward:

> I'm no lover of the establishment - or awards. But it's ridiculous that Gary hasn't had an MBE or an OBE. More fitting would be a BMC award - simply given to those who have given a heck of a lot to climbing. Chris should get one too. And there will be other worthy contenders. But it should start with those two.

> It would be like winning the Boardman-Tasker. It's not Joe Public. It's your peers. It's other climbers simply saying, "Thanks for all you've done."

> I'd respectfully ask the BMC to think seriously about this.

> Mick

And the Whillan’s hut at the Roaches should be renamed the Brown/Whillans hut.

The BMC has not honoured Joe Brown yet never mind Gary!

Post edited at 23:12
 Mick Ward 10:19 Fri
In reply to Darron:

> And the Whillan’s hut at the Roaches should be renamed the Brown/Whillans hut.

Am generally against renaming but, in this case, I'm pleased to make an exception. Think this is a great idea!

> The BMC has not honoured Joe Brown yet never mind Gary!

Another good point. I'm sure that Gary and Chris will be more than happy to wait their places in the queue behind Brown. (Just being in the same queue would be an honour for anyone.)

Another person who comes to mind is Pete Oxley for his huge contribution to Swanage and Portland. Portland climbing, as we know it, is largely his creation. I can vouch from personal experience, that the effort is immense. And you have to deal with the constant fear gnawing away at you.

Of the ladies, as mentioned above, Emma Alsford must be a strong candidate for her contribution to Pembroke. And Pat Littlejohn. And Martin Crocker. And Ian Dunn. And Dennis Gray. And there will be others. I don't think they necessarily need to be prolific new routers and/or famous climbers. As John says above, it would be for people who've given 'a lifetime's contribution to climbing'. There will be people whom nobody's ever heard of who have done exactly that. And it would be great that their efforts were recognised, that we, as a community, via the BMC, simply say, "Thank you."

There's no reason why it can't also be done retrospectively. Apart from Brown, Derek Walker and Ken Wilson are two names which come straight to mind. With very different characters and in different ways, they both gave so much. The common factor was that they cared very deeply and they put the effort in.

I can't believe that this would not be a popular move from the BMC. You could make it once a year (wouldn't have to be every year but there's already a backlog). I'd nominate Dennis Gray for the first person. Despite having a patch of really bad health recently, he was straight back with a lengthy, well thought out book review. Because he cares. He, like everyone mentioned above, just bloody well gets on with it and isn't bothered by hard work. That's what makes a difference in this world. That's what we should encourage.

Rant over!

Mick

P.S. If the Irish powers that be haven't given such awards to Clare Sheridan and Calvin Torrans, they damn well should do. And a retrospective one to Emmett Goulding.

 Offwidth 13:25 Fri
In reply to Mick Ward:

For all that I support your good intent in that plea there are well established methods for BMC members to nominate other members for volunteer awards or to get their area reps to push for recognition of especially significant input for honourary membership or to become a patron. It's frustrating when you list some who are already in receipt of such recognition. The BMC you refer to is its membership.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-volunteer-awards

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-volunteer-award-winners

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/george-band-award

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/rehan-siddiqui-award

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/young-volunteer-of-the-year-award

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-honorary-members-and-advisors

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-patrons

Post edited at 13:33
 john arran 22:14 Fri
In reply to Offwidth:

Those awards seem to be targeted very much at 'services to the BMC'. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think what Mick and I had in mind was something with a wider scope, that could explicitly recognise services to climbing in general, whether or not much of that was while involved in BMC projects. Of course there will be plenty who would fall into both camps, but equally there will be some who don't.

 Offwidth 22:19 Fri
In reply to john arran:

Talk is cheap. Campaign and lobby on it if you care.

 Gary Gibson 08:22 Sat
In reply to GrahamD:please get your information correct: I thoroughly cleaned Evasor of a coating of ivy and the bolts you mention were not placed by me and what exactly have you contributed?

 GrahamD 09:28 Sat
In reply to Gary Gibson:

If the bolt clippable from Evasor is not one of yours, I apologise.

What I've "done" or not is irrelevant,  isn't it ?  I'm certainly not one pushing boundaries, just a regular punter who enjoys the traditions of UK climbing.

 Offwidth 09:46 Sat
In reply to GrahamD:

That's the best apology you can come up with after libelling someone twice.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

> UKC has it correct as Al Simpson

That is because I corrected it based on the mistake being reported here. I then also corrected it in the master copies of the Rockfax version of the Roaches we have so that it will be correct in future.

UKC data and Rockfax data are closely linked. UKC logbook is the best place to report historical inaccuracies and omissions, not only does it mean that they get carried over into Rockfax information, it is public and freely accessible so other guidebook writers have easy access as well.

Alan

Post edited at 09:58
 Mick Ward 10:04 Sat
In reply to Offwidth:

Sorry for the delay in replying. Went out yesterday afternoon to do a new route. Prayed for good conditions (just once!) Didn't get 'em. Bit of a struggle. Clawed my way up. Came home and collapsed.

Thank you for the lists. Some very deserving people indeed on them. The George Band award would appear to be the most relevant. However, as John has pointed out, they are all BMC related. And this may exclude some very worthy people.

However, if lobbying is so hard... as Heraclitus noted, it's tricky pushing water uphill. Seems to me that ultimately the finest reward any climber can have is another climber coming up to him or her and simply saying, "Thanks for what you've done."

Mick

 Offwidth 10:25 Sat
In reply to Mick Ward:

Lobbying has been hard for the controversial but the definition of that changes over time. Also I think things are less cliquey these days, as indicated by the increased scope of the awards. Getting support for the BMC 30 (Dennis etc) might be tricky for now, as some wounds are still a bit fresh, but it won't be for the likes of Joe. If a general outline and a list of supporters could be put together for such an award I'd be happy to raise it as a proposal. 

I'd add that Gary has done a lot for the BMC as well as putting up all those routes (multiple guidebook editor, governance advice, area regular volunteer with immense crag cleaning and re-equipping efforts).

Post edited at 10:30
 GrahamD 10:34 Sat
In reply to Offwidth:

> That's the best apology you can come up with after libelling someone twice.

What else can one say ? 

 GrahamD 10:51 Sat
In reply to Offwidth:

> That's the best apology you can come up with after libelling someone twice.

I should add that GG bolted routes (2012) DO cross the traverse of Evasor.

 Mick Ward 12:41 Sat
In reply to Offwidth:

Thank you. At the risk of doing a bit of lobbying (oops, only joking!) Gary must surely qualify to be considered for the George Band award.

Joe Brown may be an example of someone who would be suitable for an 'independent' award - an inspirational figure to us all, who conducted himself with dignity and quietly gave back to climbers, climbing and his local community.

Mick  

 JimR 20:48 Sat
In reply to Mick Ward:

IMHO recognition by the climbing community is much more valuable than any establishment award. Where do you start if you start handing out awards? OG Jones? Robinson, Dolphin, Birtwhistle,  Whymper😀


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