/ Ab point on High Tor

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supersteve 07 Apr 2009
Hi all,

anyone know the current state of the ab point at the top of Original Route / Flakey Wall on High Tor? Last time I stood on the ledge (probably 4 years ago) they were a little wobbly.

Steve
danm 07 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve: Not sure, but last summer there was a decent wire strop and maillon around a tree further left (facing the crag) towards Lamplighter etc.
Si dH 07 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:
I abbed off it abotu 2 years ago but cant remember what I thought of them to be honest. If you dont like them, do the 4c pitch to the top and ab off the tree as mentioned - it has a huge chain around it and the ab (past thecave) is more fun
flaneur 07 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:

They were a little wobbly a year ago but supported 75kg.

A job for the peak bolt fund?
andy reeve07 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:
Last year there was one good and shiny bolt, and one wobbly one as other posters have said.
I'd agree with an extra bolt being placed here, although I suspect it might be outside of the remit for the peak bolt fund, which (as I understand it) is more concerned with like-for-like re-bolting of sport routes.
ANONYMOUSjbnkjbk08 Apr 2009
In reply to andy reeve:

> I suspect it might be outside of the remit for the peak bolt fund, which (as I understand it) is more concerned with like-for-like re-bolting of sport routes graded 8a and above.

UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to ANONYMOUSjbnkjbk: > I suspect it might be outside of the remit for the peak bolt fund, which (as I understand it) is more concerned with like-for-like re-bolting of sport routes graded 8a and above.

(That reminds me I need to return the drill)

If an interested and competent climber saw fit to re-equip this I am sure the loan of the drill and materials would not be denied. The Peak Bolt Fund doesnt have a specific remit. But in general the medium grade re-bolting has been done by Gibson and the PBF provides the equipment to any interested and competent climbers who need it and can justify what thety are bolting on an individual and case-by-case basis usually by activists as they are the ones are both motivated and competent and consequently work carried out in the higher grades.

There is a not a wholesale re-bolting programme for the Peak in the way Malham was professionally re-equipped. Initially I thought this was the way to go but on balance talking things through with Jon I think with respect to the Peak this discrete and modest approach is a good thing. The murky issue of liability is another reason for restraint.

Personally I have always been in two minds about the Original Route bolt belay - as convenient as it might be.
Adam Long 08 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:

Never had a problem with the path myself.
UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to ANONYMOUSjbnkjbk:


From the PBF website:

What gets rebolted is largely a function of who is bolting and what they are interested in. Re-bolting is hard, time consuming work and it is therefore not surprising that when people take time and effort to do it they will re-bolt the things they or their friends want to climb. It is conceivable that people might criticise the emphasis of the re-bolting as elitist. All I can say is, if you have routes you want re-bolted, learn to place bolts (contact the BMC and badger them to do a workshop), ask me for the kit and do some bolting. So far the PBF has not done a great deal because we don’t have people with the time, skills and inclination to get bolting. So much so that I have been loath to make any further pleas for donations.
What work we have done has been mostly on relatively hard (upper 7 and 8 ) routes. This is for several reasons:
• Resources, both time and money are very limited.
• The bulk of the PBF funds have come from paypal donations, via email. To a large extend I therefore know who has donated what. A large proportion have been donations from people I have met at one time or another and who are or have been dedicated sport climbers operating in the (relatively) harder grades. I think it only fair that their interests/priorities are served first.
• Gary Gibson does a great job re-equiping the peaks easier routes. In all fairness, unless people come to us with a desire to get involved and use PBF funds on easier routes, if you want to see your money go to re-equiping lower grade routes you may be better off donating to Gary’s fund. This isn't a deliberate policy, it's simply a consequence of who has offered assistance bolting. I'm keen to see routes of all grades re-bolted.
• To a large extent the peak’s best sport routes (using stars in guides as a gauge) are either already fairly recently equipped or in the harder grades. This is partly because over the years Gary and others have put lot’s of work in at crags like Horseshoe, the Embankment, Harpur Hill etc. It is also related to the point below. There is an argument for re-quipping good quality routes before lower quality routes, even if the higher quality route will be less popular due to factors such as location and grade.
• Because many of the peak’s hard steep crags are also it’s dirtiest and wettest, the gear rots faster and the routes are more hassle to re-equip. I would caution anyone to be VERY careful which bolts they trust at the Cheedale Cornice!

Please, if you have time and you know how to bolt, get in touch. The crags are drying off at the moment, now is the time to get involved.
If you don’t know how to bolt but you want to get involved, hassle the BMC for a workshop. Start off by downloading the excellent info on the BMC website here: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2411

Al Evans 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: You could always do the 4b pitch to the top and walk down like everybody used to.
UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

Like I said - personally I am two minds as to whether a bolt belay is desirable/required. The old shortcut paths have become overgrown thru disuse. I couldnt even find the one for the Left Wing a couple of years ago which resulted in an epic painful scramble.
Al Evans 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: Case for a clean up of the path rather than a case for a bolt lower off surely?
Andl 08 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve: This is what the BMC access database has to say on your choice of descent - http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmccrag/ViewCrag.aspx?id=134
Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:

Presumably folks who do Original Route top out, or is that no longer the case?
I always assumed that the belay was fixed for teams doing the hard routes on the Flaky Wall section of rock so they could lower-off/top-rope etc.
The right-hand path along the terrace is presumable still usable - touroids manage it.


Chris
ChrisC 08 Apr 2009
In reply to crimple:

This isn't directed at you, but what is the logic for that point of view then? It seems like its made without foundation to me as no reason is given on the site and I can't think of a good one.

No harm is done abbing from the sensibly placed chain round the tree at the top of Debauchery, and you don't lower onto anyone below.
UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Chris Craggs:

You may recall that ledge had some sort of spike with a loop driven into it (maybe its still there)and it was awkward to set up a belay. Seb put in a bolt in the 90s. Don't recall his reasons. The top pitch is scrappy especially compared to the main pitch - but these things are more than the sum of their seperate parts. However, I would hazard a guess that most don't top out now. Following the tourist path is lengthy compared to the old cut throuth just left of the main face (looking out) which was overgrown when I last used it.

My personal recommendation based on the current status of things for maximum glee is to top out and then take the airy Castellan abseil to get down.
UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to crimple:

Good link:

High Tor is managed by Derbyshire Dales Distict Council (DDDC) and there is a regular wardening service in operation. There are no major access problems at High Tor, but climbers should take careful note of the following agreed guidelines on abseiling and cliff top belays.

Abseiling: Do not abseil from trees at the top. Please walk down via the terrace. DDDC prefers climbers to go down to the cable car level rather than using the earlier tributary path due to concerns with erosion and encouraging the public off the paths.

When belaying above Darius/Robert Brown please use natural belays, stakes or in-situ pegs rather than the safety sign or the fence - the area is a popular look-out spot with the general public and ropes can cause a trip hazard.



NB The chain belay for the 'Castellan' abseil is situated below the top of the crag
Andl 08 Apr 2009
In reply to ChrisC: I wondered about the reasons for these access 'conditions' and could hazard some guesses. I have used the chain myself in the past but in the spirit of maintaining the status quo of access to this magnificent crag I've reverted to hiking down and round like I used to years ago. Anyone in the BMC know on why abseiling from the trees is out?
Andl 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: I suppose it depends on the definition of 'top of the crag'. The 'Castellan' tree is below the apex of the crag but is growing where the rock meets the grass slope leading to the top.
UKB Shark 08 Apr 2009
In reply to crimple:

Which means it definitely isnt a 'trip hazard' for the public and also materially no different than abbing near the top of a route.
Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:

>
> You may recall that ledge had some sort of spike with a loop driven into it (maybe its still there)and it was awkward to set up a belay. Seb put in a bolt in the 90s.

Yes I remember that spike, a relic from the iron age I assume. I always found it too low to use as a belay and put wires (and maybe an old peg) in the thin breaks above.

> The top pitch is scrappy especially compared to the main pitch - but these things are more than the sum of their seperate parts. However, I would hazard a guess that most don't top out now.

True it is a bit scruffy - but then you get the summit experience. If most people ab off, fairynuff - but personally I wouldn't feel I had 'done' Original Route without visiting the top!

Chris
Andl 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: Ok I'm convinced and have missed the spinning spider experience.
Al Evans 08 Apr 2009
In reply to Chris Craggs: Agreed Chris.
supersteve 08 Apr 2009
Thanks for the advice. I now remember how much fun the Castellan ab is so will be scaring myself on that after we top out.
In reply to crimple: Hi crimple. In general abbing off trees is bad because it kills them, possibly leaving you with nothing to belay from. Equiping trees with ab points to avoid ringing the bark is a good solution, although disturbing the soil around the roots will also eventually kill the tree, so care is needed.

In addition to this general principle, there are some specific reasons why the landownwer isn't too keen on people abseiling, relating to the popularity of the crag top in the summer with tourists. Parts of the crag top have been deliberately screened with hawthorn to act as a natural fence - when a certain climber cut through this so they could abseil and put up some new sport routes, this didn't go down at all well. There is also the issue with trip hazards caused by ropes.

Finally, the warden did mention that on several occasions people had had to be rescued because their ropes weren't long enough to reach the floor when abseiling, so this might be another factor for their position.
bomb09 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:

Jesus christ what the hell is wrong with people, its about 10 minutes at the very most to walk back down. If you want super convenience and bolts go sport climbing.
GrahamD 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Dan Middleton, BMC:

Some muppets had monopolised the abseil line yesterday for their own abseiling activities and wouldn't let climbers use the ab station all day !
Morgan Woods 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:
> (In reply to crimple)
>
> Good link:
>
> High Tor is managed by Derbyshire Dales Distict Council (DDDC) and there is a regular wardening service in operation. There are no major access problems at High Tor, but climbers should take careful note of the following agreed guidelines on abseiling and cliff top belays.
>
> Abseiling: Do not abseil from trees at the top.

like these guys:

http://abseiling.200blogs.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/high-tor-07/high-tor-11.jpg
Missile 20 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD: Yeah. Had a slanging match with their head honcho. I've asked the BMC what the situation is with these muppets.
Misha 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Missile:
To be fair they wrapped the trees they were using (about three of them!) in heavy duty cloth so as to reduce damage from the static lines (probably not much anyway as they were just anchor ropes).

Walk off = depump and not much longer than setting up the ab and recoiling the ropes. Great ab though.
GrahamD 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Misha:

Odd set up - they could have lowered a bus from it ! why had they chosen to take their lines passed the climber's in situ wire abseil station (without actually using it)so that they totally prevented anyone else using it ? Why not simply ab down a line 2 m further over ?
Al Evans 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: So what you are saying is nobody actually does Original Route now?, How can you claim a route if you haven't done all the pitches?
Al Evans 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Al Evans: Incidently, we topped out on Supersonic, Tales Of Yankee Power, Flakey Wall and The Pillar, so surely its not asking too much for people to top out on Original Route?
Al Evans 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee: From your quote from DDDC it sounds like not topping out and walking down could become an access issue.
Seb Grieve 20 Apr 2009
In reply to supersteve:
> Hi all,
>
> anyone know the current state of the ab point at the top of Original Route / Flakey Wall on High Tor? Last time I stood on the ledge (probably 4 years ago) they were a little wobbly.
>
> Steve

It needs new bolt cos there is no other belay and old one is 20 years old.
Al Evans 20 Apr 2009
In reply to WuDavid: Or climb to the top and walk down!!!!!!
Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator20 Apr 2009
In reply to WuDavid:
>
>
> It needs new bolt cos there is no other belay


Are you sure about this - I would a have thought the horizontal breaks above the ledge would be perfect micro-cam territory?


Chris
GrahamD 20 Apr 2009
In reply to WuDavid:

One bolt is a bit wobbly and the other is bomber. I would (did) trust them to belay off, let alone abseil.
Al Evans 20 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD: So climb to the top and do the route and walk down!
GrahamD 20 Apr 2009
In reply to Al Evans:

I'm not fussed either way - I'm happy with the state of the bolts for belays or abseils. I have to say, though, that the finish the route and walk down idea (which is what I did when I first did the route) appears to be out of fashion now - Original route got climbed (or nearly climbed, if you prefer) probably half a dozen times on Sunday and I think everyone abbed off. We finished Delicatessen at the bolts and also abbed off. I might have been more amenable to walking off if I'd remembered my trainers !
Al Evans 21 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD: Oh my dear, the youth of today, they really would not have been climbing 30 years ago, far too much trouble!
bomb26 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
I have to say, though, that the finish the route and walk down idea (which is what I did when I first did the route) appears to be out of fashion now - Original route got climbed (or nearly climbed, if you prefer) probably half a dozen times on Sunday and I think everyone abbed off. We finished Delicatessen at the bolts and also abbed off. I might have been more amenable to walking off if I'd remembered my trainers !



This is very very sad and very very lazy. So actually noone did original route on sunday? I just cannot understand this mentality. The bolts should get chopped or left to rot, as there is adequate gear for belaying, and if you're not happy with what their is, then just top out the whole 3 metres more. Topping out on hi tor is one of the highlights of the crag, its one of the best summits on a crag in the peak, the view is fantastic and the chance to sit and reflect on what was probably an amazing route shouldn't be passed up. Even if you cant be arsed to walk down you can ab off the station at the tree. Please please please don't rebolt the ledge.
It is so completely unnecessary.
GrahamD 27 Apr 2009
In reply to bomb:

Here is the description of the last pitch of Delicatessan from the Northern England Rockfax:

2) 5b, 24m. Tip toe delicately rightwards across the slab into the groove of Darius. Continue traversing (possible stance) into Original Route. Finish up this and abseil off.
GrahamD 27 Apr 2009
In reply to bomb:

And for Original Route :

Climb this past various bits of old gear, and plenty of good wires, to the ledge at the top. Abseil off or continue for a short pitch (4c) to tick the summit direct from a ledge, or up a groove on the right.
UKB Shark 27 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD:


By Chris Craggs no less ! Priceless.
abarro81 27 Apr 2009
In reply to bomb:
Most people probably abb to save the hassle of seconding routes. Seconding is officially 'wack', if I/my mate are on something hard then chances are we both want to lead it - one does it, abbs to strip the kit, then the other does it, abbs to strip the kit. (Obviously for stuff easy enough for the person in question it doesn't matter so much.) Not just on high tor but everywhere abbing's an easy option. Eg. I have yet to second a route in hunstman's leap except for getting back out at the end of the day.
bomb27 Apr 2009
In reply to GrahamD:

Yep I know, bad form Rockfax. Can't understand why they put that at all.
bomb27 Apr 2009
In reply to abarro81:

I take your point, but that reason should not lead to the placing of unnecessary bolts should it? Especially not on a (or a collection of) first class trad route? And those bolts are not necessary. Does nobody else give a shit about this?
bomb27 Apr 2009
In reply to bomb:

By the way I'm not a bolt nazi, far from it.
Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator27 Apr 2009
In reply to Simon Lee:

The High Tor section of Northern Limestone was written by Graham Hoey, based on text by Malc Taylor I believe - so there!


Chris

:-p
UKB Shark 27 Apr 2009
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Your name is on the cover. Bad form blaming your minions !

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