UKC

The extent of the ash dieback is now becoming really apparent, so sad. Do we need to start thinking about how that will affect the anchors on some of our trad crags? Probably the biggest concern on limestone crags like Trowbarrow where some of the anchor ash trees are already on the thin side. I'm sure many of the dead stumps will serve us for years to come but should we be thinking about planting replacements maybe? 

Once planted, these very quickly sprout into reliable limestone anchors: https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/petzl-coeur-bolt-stainless-bolt/?aid=13c419477...

Get em in now, just below the lip 

I'm holding out an irrational hope that a lot of the half-leafless ash trees around us are victims of the exceptionally dry spring and not the dieback.

Sadface.

Funnily enough I was on the phone to Rob Dyer, the BMC's Access and Conservation Officer, about this just the other day, because it'll have a significant effect on a great many areas. I think the somewhere in the region of a 95% loss is expected and this is something that the BMC and access reps are well aware of. As such, whilst I don't have anything more concrete at the moment, I think it's a case of 'watch this space' - there'll be a lot more said on the subject in due course.

The reason for my own call came as a result of monitoring the belays at Stoney, which - as events transpire - are predominantly ash. Initially my reaction was much like yours, insofar as I thought that like oak, they would take some time to die; however, with ash dieback this is most definitely not the case (they basically turn to mush) - something that climbers will need to be made aware of as the extent of the disease becomes more severe/widespread.

I'd definitely like a mix of native trees planted to compensate

The solution seems clear to me - plant some saplings and also some  bolts. By the time the bolts need replacing in 20+ years’ time (assuming good quality glue ins), the trees should be sufficiently well established. 

You assume that there is a piece of sound rock in the same place as the tree.  Many crags, limestone especially, isn't that sound near the top.

dieback can cause root and heart rot, not what you want for a climbing anchor, 80% of British Ash will be affected...

Den Lane Quarry

Ash Tree Direct

S4b

 Time to rename. 

True but it's usually possible to find some solid rock. If the trees go, there might be no choice but to put bolts in, unless it's possible to put a stake in.

As per other comments, it's not - sadly - that simple. 

What we all have to bear in mind is what landowners do/don't have planned with regards to ash dieback. Some, like the National Trust, have made proactive efforts to remove affected trees. Others, have done - and will likely do - nothing. What makes matters even more complicated is that each area (and each crag) can have its own prevailing ethic, which may or may not mean that bolts are an acceptable alternative. As such, access reps will likely have to deal with them on a case by case basis.

Whilst I think the notion of planting a selection of saplings is nice, it's a long game and one which would need the landowner on board (not least because it may or may not require them to action such a thing). Lest we forget, such a sapling would take years to grow to an adequate and safe size and, at least in the short term, would need the ash removing in order to give it adequate light and space to grow (which, going back to my earlier point, may or may not be possible given the landowners intentions).

In short, it's a bit of a minefield, but bear with - the BMC and its access reps are definitely aware of the issue.

There's always the option not to place bolts, even if it makes routes unprotectable.

is "Dieback Direct" a little off-putting for a Severe?

At a wedding today  so time to think but can’t top that  it could be worse The Wild salmon at a funeral   

thinking it may be a Mountain Ash / Rowen this route takes it name from,  I’ve seen Ash die back locally but not in Rowen ( but not gone looking)  Anyhow are Rowen trees affected? 

Rowan's not an ash, it's a rose.

Brilliant  

I think the discussion is about anchors at the top of a route. 

Well my comment was a bit tongue in cheek, it’s a case by case issue as you say but in principle if the only available anchor is a tree and it dies, the only alternative may be bolts, whatever the crag ethics happen to be. I mean if there really are no other options (there may well be all sorts of alternatives, including not climbing the route if it’s not particularly good!). 

Good thread people. I do nearly all my climbing in Somerset where ash anchors prevail and have been musing this very issue for some months given that this year the dieback effect is in full flow. 
There’s not a huge amount to add that hasn’t already been said. I do however have anecdotal info from friend who works in forestry, he mentioned that when he first felled an ash with dieback onto a hard surface he was surprised to see it shatter, literally like glass. This would suggest that long before any ‘mush’ sets in the trees become incredibly brittle, something I’d imagine it’s hard to ascertain from looking. I’d suggest belt and braces and spread any anchors between even more trees than usual. 

If these Ash trees die then they will make a right mess of the top of the crag also and likely destabilise the rock and trees around them. Would planting new trees now solve the anchor problem?

People seem so averse to bolted lower offs that they would rather have 10m of tat and backup ropes running through choss to the nearest usable tree. Or clusters of rusty and snapped pegs equalised with tat. Ignoring the 'thin end of the wedge' arguments, how is this better than a couple of tidy bolts?

I've taken a couple of hundred ash trees out from the neighbouring forest and they certainly are brittle particularly the branches, bits fly everywhere. The problem is the die-back weakens the trees resistance to other diseases and about half of mine had already fallen over due to butt rot which turns the roots to mush.

And the other possible problem in that new saplings' roots wont necessarily course the route that older trees left behind and they might destabilise different rocks which don't current have roots surrounding them.  

There is also the possible freeze/thaw issue too if roots rot away leaving pockets of water which will expand when frozen.

The solution seems simple but is probably less so.

Yep that's me, definite preference for temporary tat while new trees are planted over bolts. Trees over bolts anytime.  TBH if we plant now then in most cases there will be no need for bolts in the vast majority of cases.

In planting new Ash saplings, are you not just going to contaminate the saplings from the remnants of the old trees? Then the saplings will die from the same process/disease.

Regarding Trowbarrow in particular you will be aware that the quarry and surrounding woodland is a nature reserve and SSI. There is a reserve officer connected to the AONB office at Arnside (I applied for the job a few years ago). I've not been into the place for a few months so can't recall the mix of trees above Main Wall etc. It's true that there is a lot of ash just by the edge but not far in there are other species. I have done conservation work in that woodland and in the quarry itself and there's a lot of hazel and silver birch and oak in various places. One feature about ash I've noticed its amazing reproductive powers. Making a woodland glade often encourages an explosion of ash saplings in the cleared area in the following months and years. Any resistant trees will over time fill the void but it will take time. As for bolts at Trowbarrow, knowing the nature of the top of Main Wall and the general large scale looseness, would you trust them? And anyway bolts are banned, it's a SSI for the unique geological features.

If there's a suitable tree at the top of the route, absolutely use that. I've done so many climbs where you have to wade through brambles and choss, raining down blocks on others below to check where the piece of mossy rope at the top goes to. 

I don't think Trowbarrow has much of a problem. I think people generally belay on the ash saplings just because they are there. There are no doubt exceptions but most routes have some solid looking rock a few yards back from the edge, or another sort of tree. There's even a few iron stakes here and there.

However, the post got me thinking about others species. I don't know if it's just local, but I seem to have seen masses of acorns on the ground in our patch this year. Should we be picking them up and scattering them in areas where the trees are mainly ash? I know that there are good reasons why ash is the predominant species on limestone areas, but just a few acorns turning into trees would help. Any reasons not to do a bit or acorn scattering?

A little brutal. But if the uninflected Ash were cut and then poisoned , leaving enough to anchor too it would 1 ,stop the spread 2,  leave a anchorage 3, importantly give time for new growth 4, avoid bolts 

Planting Ash saplings at crag tops is still probably a good idea as many could survive, they grow incredibly quickly and make excellent belay trees as distinct from Birch that is inherently dangerous and weak. Chalara will not necessarily kill all Ash trees and resistance will develop naturally. Within 5-10 years a good belay tree can grow.

No bolts thanks.

DC

Non-climbing comment; don't remove dead trees, dead standing timber is excellent insect habitat. 

Ash saplings reproduce very fast so no need to replant Ash saplings. Die back affects young trees much more than mature. That said we've got die-back in mature trees in our garden, but a young sapling (fingers crossed) seems unaffected so far. Hopefully a proportion of ash volunteers will have natural resistance but nobody knows.

Best to leave be, make do with what there is and if trees do die put in bolts where possible. That said, its correct the timber is weakened so care needed in mean time.

Thats a shame, red wall is a prime candidate for all out retro bolting

Unfortunately it wouldn't stop the spread, as Ash Dieback is now endemic in the UK.  Management is now aimed at damage limitation: i.e. making sure that ash trees don't fall over on to road, buildings and other areas accessible to the public.

Killing the stump would just result in a dead - and hence rotting - stump which would be equally useless.

Trees with Ash Dieback get very brittle, and once approx 50% of the crown is affected then they're generally considered unsafe to climb. So if a tree is near a building etc and needs to be dismantled (rather than just chopping it at the base) then it would have to be felled earlier than a tree that can just be clear-felled.

Trees that present no danger to the public can just be allowed to die (and fall over) where they are.

I predict boom times ahead for tree surgeons. Driving up the M6 there are literally hundreds of ash trees by the hard shoulders and they all look doomed. It's only in the last few weeks that I've really noticed the extent of the dieback. Last week I was walking by a farm at the back of Bowness and there were two very large specimens side by side. One was completely skeletal and the other was in full leaf and seemed fine. Perhaps that one is resistant or maybe just lucky? A nearby resident told me they'd already had to cut down some nearer the house.

I was going to post very similar to you.

About a third of the trees lining the A & B roads around us are Ash.  I assume it’s similar for railways.  It’s going to be an epic undertaking - and disruption - to maintain highway safety as they die.

It really noticeable how many are shedding their leaves well early this year.  There is definitive variability nearby giving me hope some mature ones are resistant.

Not sure if you saw the following, but the figures are pretty eye-watering: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54373214

Luke Barley, who's quoted within the article, recently became the NT's National Tree and Woodland Adviser. Prior to this he worked for the National Trust within the Peak District and was great to deal with from a BMC access point of view, so it's great to hear that he's heading up the strategy.