UKC

Scoop wall left rib.

Whats with the litter attached to the bolts needs removing! Dont care whos sponsered the bolts. Its tacky and unwanted!

 Route Alladin was retro bolted recently.

I know theres alot of retrobolting going on some routes i think fine others tread a fine line. especially after climbing in yorkshire for over 30 years and Attermire plays a special place in my heart I went to settle high school and spent many a day bunking off school up there, with my mates. Soloing and tradding.

Bolting a superb crackline with a manky top just may be just ok even though i saw someone trying to lead it on gear a bit ago and climbed it myself 25 years ago... but the painting of its name at the bottom of the route! It aint f*cking France!

I totally agree, as kids going to Settle High School, running up at lunch time to solo Red Light and Catholic high school girls in trouble, and after school walking further along to the Escarpment and picking off a few local classics 30 yrs back. I was appalled to see Aladdin bolted. I think the Burnley lads have done a great job up there, but the line has been crossed. Who bolted Aladdin and why did they choose to paint the name on the rock. This is not France. Everyone is happy to see loose rock taken off the crag. New routes and the straightening out of old trad climbs that are just not climbed now. But we need to preserve some history for the next generation of local kids that want to go and test themselves on local crack climbs and experience the same adventures I did 30 yrs back. We have to remember kids don't have cars and in this area have to rely on walking to their local crags or hitchhiking. It's just no easy for kids growing up in the Yorkshire Dales to nip to the lakes or North Wales. We have to protect these local stomping grounds. What happens when every E1, and  on the Yorkshire Limestone has been bolted, Where will they learn to place protection. What's next? Carnage, Face Route, Mulatto Wall, Wombat ? I agree with lower offs, replacing unsightly old rotting pegs and tatt, but lets face it. This is a well protected crack. I think climbers from away just think, well its Limestone , it doesn't matter. But is does. 

So who is going to remove the bolts from Alladin then if it is out of order to have it retroed??

Tickled that someone has the nerve to claim a first ascent "as a bolt route".

I agree. They have dug out and bolted plenty of new mid grade routes. Why the desire to retro existing trad routes as well?

Whilst the bolting appears to be pretty unilateral and done without consultation perhaps a first step, before reaching for the angle grinders and bolt cutters, would be for a proper debate (BMC Yorkshire Area?) about where this is all going and just how this all fits with the BMC's stated position on fixed equipment.

There was one. There is a protocol. 

Sure, I was posing the question - maybe I didn't phrase it correctly.

Maybe all the Yorkshire folk are jealous they don't have an endless supply of ex Tarmac quarries to bolt like in the peak.

An observation, nothing more. 

Your OP currently has a like to dislike ratio of 3:1. This suggests that the bolting of these routes is unpopular.

The popularity of the routes tells a different story, there is an almost insatiable appetite for low to mid grade sport routes no matter what the quality.

What does this say about the ukc community and the climbing community as a whole? 

Looking on the bright side of it all, there is an opportunity for double bubble; an enjoyable afternoon bolt clipping, followed by an enjoyable evening ranting and arguing. 

Accentuate the positives

what is attached to the bolts? 

Sounds to me like a counter strike on widdop is in order, artificial route with a few bolts would be sweet.

You could hear the screams in Burnley over the sound of the hilti 😂

That's the way, don't forget a white rose attached to each bolt. 

Widdop is Yorkshire, but it's the Burnley lads turf, you could grid bolt Noggarth, and I doubt they would care.

Oops poor geography and rash assumptions on my part, and me raised in the golden land of the red rose too. 

Plastic business cards for climbing walls and climbing wall manufacturers.

Alladin aint a great route but it follows a really good crack. Im not to arsed to be honest. But it was nice to see people on it and on Hares wall while up there sport climbing it mixed it up a bit and is making them more popular.

Im not opposed too retrobolting alot of lines ive climbing most of them. Ive retrobolted in the past which I got a huge slagging off for.

I just dont like the plastic advertisements and the writting of route names.

I thin a similar debate was had a few weeks back, not sure how it ended after 160 odd replies...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/attermire_sport_routes-722008

That is really poor form, I would suggest the following action. 

1. Name and shame, there is sufficient outrage within the climbing community about littering currently to get the message across. 

2. Collect the litter and post it back to the offender without a stamp so they pick up the postage. Include an invoice for your time. 

Just to help you all have a bit more of a rant about bolts, routes, limestone, Lancashire and Yorkshire, I climbed the route just as it was bolted, mostly because it was the only dry part of the crag and also because I have absolute faith in the person who bolted it. 

It's no longer an e1 Trad line because the tottering flakes have peeled away over time and it could be said that those of us who sentimentalise our childhood days and project that onto modern developments in climbing are simply living in the past. 

For the record, there was no painting at the bottom and who is to say that the painting was not retro painted to encourage further ranting... 

I agree with you on this, the bolting is one thing, but to me this is something new and entirely unwelcome. 

Having seen the cards in question, I think they're old/expired membership passes for climbing walls, there was an EP card in there too (3rd bolt? I forget). Still seems a strange thing to do though, especially given the controversial (on UKC at least) nature of recent bolting here. I certainly don't think they add anything to the route or general atmosphere, if anything they detract from it. Are they some kind of statement that you don't need to to go the indoor wall any more when there's so much quality outdoor bolted rock to climb I wonder?

Ok, Lets try to nip this in the bud before the thread degenerates into an unpleasant slagging match like the previous Attermire thread.

Re the cards on Scoop wall. This was a bit of an attempt by Bob Larkin to provoke a bit of humour, and mischeivous intrigue. They can easily be removed and probably will be now seeing as they are unnacceptable to some people. They were never an attempt to promote sponsorship or advertising.

Re Aladdin. This route never received a recorded ascent on UKC in it trad form despite it appearing in every definitive guide since 1974. Following John Hunt's attempt and lucky escape with only minor injuries when he took a ground fall from it a couple of months ago I abseiled the line and cleaned numerous loose blocks and flakes from it and decided to bolt it to a lower-off below the final extremely loose upper reaches. 

After some one told me they were confused as to which crackline was which on this wall I wrote the name Aladdin in washable felt tip pen which I had in my rucksac. I accept this is not normal practice but the route missed the deadline for the new supplement so I thought it would help clarify the situation in the short term. I'm pretty sure it will wash off after the first thunderstorm hits. If not and  people find it offensive I will remove it myself. 

Despite our years of climbing experience we occasionally make mistakes. They can be rectified.

"Modern developments"

That's an interesting choice of words for something that certainly isn't new or modern and by some may be regarded as a step in the wrong direction in terms of developments.

So was littering this environment with bits of plastic acceptable to you? 

It wasn't something I would have done. But I dont think they were ever intended to be pemanent.

So was Alladin a superb  splitter crackline or a link of tottering flakes ?

Try to be truthful and not wear the rose tinted blinkers of faded memory.

Nice to hear it direct.

Word of caution, and from someone who's hasn't climbed at Attermire in 20 years, we should all be wary of thinking ukc data=the world. Gives a rough approximation of relative popularity and that's all. Thinking about recent places I've been with with people shuttling up and down stuff and comparing to the data. Most people don't log stuff.

We have established thought that 'this is not France'....even though t times I wish it were  

Mate , there was painting at the bottom or the route. Big red letters. I did a temporary job and covered it with chalk. Needs brushing off with a wire brush.

I was thinking about it, but I have decided to leave the bolts and cement the crack up instead. Don't worry it will match the limestone. 

Agreed.  I know lots of climbers, most of us only climb sport and I’d say only 1 or 2 of us have ever posted anything in here, or logged any ascents. The UKC forum membership is not a fair representation of climbers in the uk.

I know UKC do the occasional survey and I wonder how that compared to the general climber demographic in the uk?

Rick in all honesty I dont have much recollection. All the routes we did in that area and many others finished in vertical grass and the odd loose block. It was just part of the climbing. I often think a nice fixed lower off on trad routes is the way forward. To extend their popularity!

The number of people getting their thrills at Alton Towers probably exceeds those at Millstone by 100 to 1.  Masses seem to want sanitised quick fixes.

When WAS the Yorkshire debate? And where can I find that protocol?

Burnley won't give a shit. That's Yorkshire stuff over t'ill.

Climbed it AS it was bolted!  Just how did you log that? Trad? Sport? Trort? Spad?

Kudos.

It's as if you've never clipped bolts before. If only we could all inhabit the upper echelons of climbing society, with its unshakeable ethics and deities of passive protection...

I can't remember exactly. It was chaired by Mark radke organised by bmc Yorkshire. Plenty were there. It was 12 years or so ago. Quite a big deal at the time. There was lots of argument to replace peg runners with bolts e.g. Carnage. Agreed not to. In particular I remember someone arguing seriously for half the routes in Yorkshire to be bolted, to which someone else replied "the top half". Paul Clerk, Dave Musgrove et Al will know all about it, pretty sure it was they who organised it. Just popped into my head that, at that time all the bmc regions had meetings to agree bolt policy. Which in some areas gave cover to remove bolts, the SW?

Sorry I can't be more helpful. It did happen and a policy was agreed. 

Was at the Escarpment today. The cards have all been removed, so that should  be the end of that issue.

Sounds like the proposal to bolt half the Limestone routes in Yorkshire was approved and passed!  😆