UKC

Okay I have my brain in a twist so maybe you can help me out.

I'm heading out to Saxony next week for the long run outs and impossible to protect routes. Also great landscape. I will stay well within my limits and feel quite confident, the only thing I can't wrap my head around is how to belay my second.

On top of the sandstone pillars there is usually a heavy duty ring which an be used for both anchoring and abseiling. This is different to the alpine or trad settings I'm used to for belaying from the top, where the anchors are mostly above me in a wall.

I could attach my tube in guide mode to this and be done. But then the loaded rope would go over the edge and damage both rock and rope (sandstone). Alternatively I could sit on the edge, anchored to the fix point, and belay from my belay loop. But belaying a second and not a leader this way feels wrong.

The best way I came up with is belaying from my loopbut redirecting the rope with a second carabiner attached to the anchor to tane the load in case if a fall.

What do you think?

Why would belaying a second in this way feel wrong? 

Well that's how I would do it in that situation. 

Italian hitch/HMS off the ring.

This, pretty much. Not running the rope over the edge is important. The rings (if there are any!) will take a big screwgate. Just clove hitch your rope to the bolt so you can sit near the edge. If you do not want to belay of your harness to remain mobile, you can simply tie a short loop into the rope leading to your second and use that as a central point for belaying in guide mode.

CB

Many edges in the peak require anchors in the ground, which you would either clove hitch to, or run the rope back to your harness and hitch onto an hms on your belay loop. 

I would imagine this would be pretty much exactly the same as the ring on the ground you are describing? Cant really see anything unusual about it. Have fun!

Have at look at this video from the BMC:  youtube.com/watch?v=0736ni7-dqU&

Belaying a second while sitting at the edge is a very common thing to do. All you will be doing differently from this video is using the single ring as your anchor rather than the master point of the equalised gear he's using here.

For alpine belays I was taught always to belay a second of a fixed point. When I belayed off my belay loop in another German crag (similar tower situation) last year some guy who saw me doing it implored me to never do it again, so I was wondering about a better way. But apparently I wasn't as wrong as I thought.

Thanks everybody for your insights.

That's how most people belay on the grit.

Really? Atop a sandstone tower, with the rope angling over the edge?

"For alpine belays I was taught always to belay a second of a fixed point."

Be careful learning one setup and expecting to apply it consistently in all situations. It's useful to build a library of setups and know the pros and cons of all of them so you can select ther best method for the situation you find yourself in.

Personally I'd sit on the edge to avoid ther rope running over ther edge as you say...

Sit on the edge and enjoy the brilliant views.

As you are asking this question, are you happy with the rest of the "protection " on sandstone ? Slings on dodgy flakes, knotted cord in cracks, that sort of thing ?

I’d have thought that would probably be a fraction of the damage, if any, of pulling your rope down after abseiling from the ring.

Yes. You stand on the edge tending the rope, it never touches the rock.

Climbing in Saxony is not quite as bad as it is made out to be. Yes, what you describe is true for a lot of the routes, but even if it were true for 90% that would still leave more than 1000 guidebook routes where the protection is adequate even for a Frankenjura guy like me who grew up with proper bolts and actual rock rather than knotted slings and weetabix.

Plenty of routes can e.g. be protected with a combination of bolts and solid threads, and even knotted slings and monkey fists can often be placed in a rather obvious way. However, if you restrict the type of placements you trust the runouts can become something else.

Also, some "protection" placements e.g. with "Fusselschlingen" (very loosely woven band material that is supposed to be less likely to slip off spikes) looks like voodoo to me even after 15 years in Dresden. At least those slings will make for nice decoration of the crater rim if you deck!

Finally, UFO rings, i.e. cam-like expanding wedges made from textile material and rubber, have made protecting cracks with minimal constrictions much more reliable.

CB

As I said I will be staying below the grades I would climb in trad routes. And that is lower than what I would do in sport routes.

Tie yourself to the ring, sit or stand braced at or just over the edge. Belay from your harness/tie in.

Standing is riskier but can be useful for visibility and keeping running rope off edges. If your legs buckle you need to be sure you won't drop your partner.

Jk

Post disliked by ever climber who believes they are competent but has yet to use their knowledge in extremis. 

I did not dislike the post, but the method does have one obvious drawback in that the rope will run three times from the bolt to the belay position. If the bolt is a bit removed from the edge that may just be too much dead rope. I know a couple of towers where the bolt is at least 4 or 5 m from the edge, so that will cost a significant fraction of even a 60 m rope!

My preferred option of clove hitching to the belay and belaying from a central point tied into the strand leading to the second only needs two strands of rope from anchor to belay stance.

CB

Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. I don't remember many in situations rings and terrifying unprotected bridging and back and footing.

Beers certainly tasted good afterwards !

What about when the second falls off, or can't do the climb and you want to lower them? I haven't seen these particular towers, I hasten to add - maybe those scenarios don't apply, for some reason - but the OP describes the situation pretty well, and his stated concern is the loaded rope rubbing on the edge. How do you avoid that with a loaded rope and direct belay?

I think you must be comparing abseil rope retrieval with simply taking in rope for a second who stays on the rock. What about the scenarios where the rope is both moving and fully loaded, like a lower of a second?

The unprotected stuff, especially on the classic spires, is something that scares me shitless, too, so I second it only when I can find a madman / rope gun. I also largely avoid areas where the rock is crumbly even for Elbe standards. In Rathen I have e.g. only done Lokomotive, a classic Perry Smith route from 1900 and not, protection so so but welll within my grade.

A former PhD student in my lab climbed into 8b/c range as well as doing expedition mountaineering in the Pamirs, so he was the ideal rope gun. Unfortunately he graduated even though I told him he would first have to drag me up Khan Tengri....

There are so many routes, though, that for my lifetime there is enough single and multi pitch stuff at my pay grade that is well enough protected for my tastes.

CB

HI Jon and H, hope you are both safe and well. Most of the abseil rings are set in such a way that the rope does not touch the rock, however on popular abseils a steel rope guide is fitted below the abseil ring.

Tony & Sarah

Hi cb, sticky slings are like RPs, you must believe.

Tony & Sarah

Germans - like Brits and Americans - have a tendency to mistakenly imagine that their local practices are the only correct and safe way to do things.

Hi Marmolata, a couple of things, all public towers have a least one abseil ring and a summit book (there are a few private towers which can prove very exciting). Most routes will not have a ring at the top to belay from (some of the towers are quite large on top, Falkenstein, Grosser Lorenzstein, Rauschenstein etc.,) There will be trees or large blocks to belay with slings.

Have fun, we should be in the Scrammsteine now, we will travel out as soon as we are able.

Tony & Sarah  - Freitaler Klettern Klub 93

Always be careful about people who tell you to 'always' do something.

Seriously though, why 'always' belay direct on an alpine climb? Sure I can see the benefits, but there may be the occasion where you want to belay away from the anchors.

Anchors in reach, out of reach, indirect, redirect, direct, Italian hitch, extended direct, there are so many configurations. A true master chooses whatever is appropriate for the situation (I am no master).

For single pitch trad, I usually go off the harness, but for multipitch I prefer direct, but it depends.

Ha, precisely! This is why my fuzzy slings have their magic colours, a hideous blue and orange!

Btw., where is your profile photo from?

CB

Hi cb, we cannot remember where the photograph was taken, we will ask our friend Volker, I know we were having a wonderful day as usual. The other photograph of Tony climbing was on Wartturm, Rathen and the route was Sudwand.

Sarah & Tony

Thanks! After moving to Dresden it took me years to summon up enough courage to lead on Elbe sandstone, and now I live 450 km away from there. The only climbing less than 1h away is some slippery, holdless, bolted slate slabs. Couldn't be more different.

Ok, Cambridge before that was even worse.

CB

I hope you attempted the Überfall! I hate to admit it, but I've stood at the lip on the sharp end three times now, eyeing that wide stride, and have gracefully swapped rope ends each time and then followed without any problems. It must be about three grades easier than what I was otherwise climbing on the Sandstein at those times, but I never managed to switch my imagination off sufficiently to lead that seemingly monstrous step across the abyss!

It's on the list (again) for this autumn... 

Yes, could not leave Dresden without that one! Helps that I am tall enough, so it was less scary than for my much stronger but quite a bit smaller climbing partner on the day.

CB

Better still, anchor to the fixed point and belay off that with your belay loop clipped into the side of the belay i.e. a direct belay but you can position yourself so the weight comes on you first before it wieghts the belay. This gives a nicer 'feel' for what the second is doing, yet you are not 'part of the system'.  There is utterly no point in 'being part of the system' if you don't have to be.