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Building up to Resurrection: Route recommendations?

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So after 1 broken leg, 3 national lockdowns, 2 blown pulleys and 1 bout of elbow tendinitis, I finished 2021 on a high with my first sport 7b redpoint (thanks to everyone for the route recommendations!). But I want 2022 to be the year I return seriously to trad, and my long-term ambition of climbing (preferably onsighting) Resurrection (E4 6a)

End of 2019 I was a solid E2 climber, but I'm now a stronger and much more well-rounded sport climber. Trad didn't really happen in 2020 due to my foot not being properly attached to my leg for a part of it, and in 2021 I focused much more on getting back to, and then going beyond, my old physical capabilities. (I head-pointed one E4 back in 2019 (The Mau Mau (E4 6a), but that's not really relevant to the present goals!)

So I'll need to spend the spring months of 2022 taking it a bit easier and just re-familiarising myself with placing gear efficiently and safely etc. But once that's all dialled back in I want to start working through routes that will serve as a good build-up to Resurrection. Hence things in the E3 to low E4 range, on similar kind of terrain. Stuff in North Wales has an obvious advantage, especially on rhyolite, but I actually live in London, so really routes can be anywhere as it all involves a weekend's drive anyway.

So far I've got some obvious contenders:

Foil (E3 6a)

Stroll On (E3 6a)

Left Wall Direct Finish (E3 5c)

The Sun (E3 5c)

The Mask of the Red Death (E3 5c)

But I'm keen for more!

Cheers

Post edited at 13:09
7

In reply to Shani:

Some people apparently don't like climbing being discussed on UKC.

 Slackboot 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

 I hope you have a good, injury free year and manage Resurrection (E4 6a). The Cromlech is a great crag.

Post edited at 14:31
 neilh 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

It’s an easier route on the crux if you are tall. So increase your height as much as you can is my tip!!!

 AJM 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I've only done left wall direct and the sun off your list, but (whilst good and in North Wales) I'm not sure The Sun (E3 5c) has much else to recommend it as a stepping stone - it's easier, but a totally different style. Left Wall Direct Finish (E3 5c) obviously has a lot more in common - and is probably the full width of a grade easier?

In the run up to trying Resurrection (E4 6a) (I fell off the top) I spent a bunch of time in the lakes, so a bunch of the things that spring to mind are there - Prana (E3 5c)Grand Alliance (E4 6a), some of the E3s on  Reecastle Crag, perhaps Equus (E2 5c) (honestly, not that similar in style but mountain rock and very very good, and probably harder than the Reecastle E3s). I've not done it but rather suspect if you can do Eastern Hammer (E3 6a) you are in with a good chance on Resurrection.

I've not done much there but have you considered places like High Tor, or some of the other good bits of inland limestone. Bound to be a decent selection there.

Edit: oh, and in terms of vert wall climbs to build base fitness on, you could obviously do worse than some of the longer/better stuff on the west side of Portland...

Post edited at 14:59
In reply to AJM:

Thanks!

I did Left Wall Direct on second (in an approach shoe!) at the end of 2020 so I'm pretty confident I can do that on lead without trouble. The Sun is very much just a stepping stone route in the plan: got to break into E3 somehow!

We were planning on trying to go to the Lakes a bit more this year (after getting almost entirely rained out last year, when up there for a wedding) so those are great recommendations - I'll add them to my new ticklist.

And yep, there will be plenty of Portland training climbing going on, especially in the spring. Current thought is to do Saturdays at Portland climbing 7a-7b routes, then swinging over to Swanage on Sundays and getting back into trad initially on easier routes.

2
In reply to neilh:

I'll start attaching ankle weights to my ankles when doing passive hangs then!

1
In reply to AJM:

p.s. good shout on High Tor - I've been meaning to get the classic 'D' routes there done for ages. 

1
 AJM 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I realised I got my ordering entirely the wrong way round and the Lakes was actually after Resurrection, but still, it was at a similar sort of time.

Let me know if you're down on the Isle.

I had a flick back through my log for that sort of time to think of any more ideas, and there were a few things at Avon/Cheddar/locale that were fairly steep walls, potentially some of the Suicide Wall routes at Idwal, and there's obviously plenty of things at Sharpnose - Diamond Smiles is the only E3 I've done there but I suspect many of them could work.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you’ve redpointed 7B you should walk Resurrection, which can only be 6B+ or 6C at most and it’s well protected.

24
 robate 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I also don't know why the downvotes..

However Tremadog is a clear venue and a route which is different in style but would lead on well to Resurrection imho is Void. Well protected, quite hard work but really good, and can be dry any time.

 AJM 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

I thought Right Wall was usually the canvas on which the "how low a French grade can I claim for it" game was played...

1
 Misha 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

It’s not that well protected at the bottom. You need to be able to hang around a bit to fiddle gear in and move on despite the gear not being bomber. After that the gear gets better and easier to place. However the E is for effort, not gear (unlike RW). It’s pretty sustained, although there are a few (semi) rests. I’d say 6c to 6c+ with the RH finish. LH isn’t much easier. Certainly not 6b+.

It’s a classic face endurance route, so that’s what you’ve got to do to build up to it. Onsighting (or at least trying to onsight) sport face routes around 7a should help. Somewhere like Llanymynech, Portland or Masson (once it dries out).

Moving on to trad, anything up to E4 at crags like High Tor, Chee Tor, Wintour’s and Avon would be good mileage (Wintour’s and Avon are a bit different of course but all good mileage and you can seek out the face routes there as opposed to traverses, overhangs and cracks). Pembroke would be great training as well as there’s no shortage of long face routes there. In fact that might be your best bet but obviously tides and conditions are big limiting factors. Swanage is obviously a very different style.

In the Pass, the ones you mentioned, plus some of the less well known E2/3 routes on the Cromlech (some are quite bold and get you used to fiddly rhyolite gear). Also the smaller crags on the other side of the Pass with routes like El Guide Direct. Plus the E4 on Scimitar - not exactly a face route but good to try.

The Sun is more of a crack / groove route but Mask of the Red Death is more like a face route. Have a look at the E3/4 routes in Fallen Block Zawn as well - mostly different style mostly but all good mileage.

There’s a school of thought that RW is actually easier than Resurrection because it has two resting ledges. This is probably right but RW is less well protected on the whole and you wouldn’t want to clip one of those ledges, especially the second one and especially with a recent ankle injury. There are two places where people typically fall off, one is around half way up where it’s a clean fall (I’ve tested it) and the other above the second ledge where you have to be skilful or lucky (I’ve seen someone fall off there and miss the ledge but I suspect it’s claimed a few victims over the years). Whereas on Resurrection it’s a clean fall anywhere really, though you don’t want to fall off on the lower section.

 Misha 15 Jan 2022
In reply to AJM:

Ah yes, Sharpnose - all the classics there!

The Lakes are hard to get in good condition and I suspect the Pass will be in condition more often. Plus it’s a fair bit further from London. Lots of mid level crags with great routes in the Lakes though.

 Misha 15 Jan 2022
In reply to robate:

Tremadog has its own techy style which is quite different to Resurrection and some people seem to hate it. Good mileage for sure. The Cream headwall is the closest in style to the Cromlech. A few routes there and a few ways to get up there.

 AJM 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Misha:

Yeah, the Lakes is generally a bit less convenient, particularly for Paul who has a club hut in Capel, but only Gimmer is particularly "high mountain" on my list (Black Crag and Reecastle are clearly mid-valley) and as these things go it's a fairly undemanding one for conditions - it's hardly scafell! 

Post edited at 18:10
 Cake 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'm not going to recommend a route as I don't climb that hard, but for me, it's worth trying some routes of the same grade (for you, E4) which I care less about before the 'big on-sight', with all that pressure. Maybe get a couple in before you go to the Cromlech.

 CurlyStevo 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Swanage is worth considering. Closer to london, amazing situation, quiet, lots of multi stared e grade climbing and a lot of climbs with pretty good gear and relatively safe fall zones. Its also a sun trap in spring. I can't advise on specific climbs as E4 is well above my grade. Don't bother with subliminal.

Post edited at 18:34
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you can do Stroll on and Foil without any drama  then game on I'd say.  Sun at Rhoscolyn path in comparison. 

Was going to suggest Strike at Gogarth but that might be given E4 now anyway..!  

Enjoy Resurrection.  I've done it a couple of times and each time it was the bottom bit that slowed me down a bit just got to push on a bit knowing better holds and gear will appear.   Don't hang around up the top bit. It's still an easier lead than RW although I did RW before Resurrection for some reason.! . 

In reply to Misha:

>  I’d say 6c to 6c+ with the RH finish. LH isn’t much easier. Certainly not 6b+.

But the LH finish is a bit run out and therefore very exciting if pumped. The RH finish eases pretty quickly after one hard well protected move. Well that's how I remember them anyway.

In reply to Misha:

I'd love to do more in Pembroke, but the extra drive time from London does mean other places tend to get plumbed for instead. Then again we bought a van for this kind of thing, and it's not THAT much further than North Wales!

Chee Tor is another good shout - if only tick off Sirplum (E1 5b), which I've wanted to do since I learned to trad climb and still not gotten around to. I actually seconded Right Wall in 2019, and fell off near the top. Not sure I'll ever get on that tying into the sharp end - the falls would be humungous!

In reply to Cake:

Yeah that was my thought too! Back in 2019 the big goal was Left Wall (E2 5c). I'd done a few E2s by that point and it ended up being a breeze - which I was quite grateful for!

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Your list is a pretty good start - I'd done all those by the time I got around to doing Resurrection and perhaps not surprisingly Foil and Stroll On would be the best benchmarks - as someone else has commented, if you do those OK then you're in with a good chance. Basically you're after longish sustained, vertical wall climbs so maybe also consider Cloggy as well as Pembroke and High Tor mentioned elsewhere.

One top tip would be to decide which of the two finishes you plan to do BEFORE setting off - you can waste a lot of energy dithering when you get there otherwise! Here's a blog post from when my son did it, with a few pics for psyche / inspiration (but no major beta spoilers)

https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/2018/05/30/resurrection/

Enjoy! Cheers, Dom 

 Si dH 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I haven't done Resurrection. I'm not convinced that either Foil or Left Wall will really prepare you for it physically... neither are really very sustained in their difficulty. Foil is much shorter and has a fairly distinct crux. However they are both brilliant routes and it's definitely good to be comfy with the rock type when climbing at your limit.

If you want to look for sustained E3s on limestone then I would definitely recommend a visit to Chee Tor. High Tor is absolutely brilliant but the style is mostly a tiny bit more on your feet I think. Still obviously worth a trip and don't stop at the D's, do Robert Brown, Perseus and Lyme Cryme when you've done Darius. You should also go to Dovedale and do Adjudicator Wall, hard E3 doesn't get any better (disclaimer, I fell off near the top.)

Post edited at 21:17
 racodemisa 15 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

How about Them..Arms race and Mirage on the upper sea walls Avon gorge ? All high quality endurance RTS albeit with different climbing styles.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

A good one fashioned psyche enducing thread, love it. I'll throw Memory Lane (E3 5c) into the mix; along with Foil they seem like good stepping stones to the harder Cromlech lines. Not done Foil but Memory Lane was a good tick for feeling the long pitch exposure of the Cromlech. 

Best of luck with you 2022 ticklish

 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to lurcher:

Strike is indeed E4 now, fairly different style though. Stroll On I found ok and most of it isn’t that hard from memory. Foil is pretty sustained though.

 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to racodemisa:

Arms Race is well worth a blast. Just don’t be put off if you don’t manage it onsight or clean! The Ramp is brilliant for endurance and minimal faff with the lower offs.

 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Just don’t turn up at Chee Tor looking for Sirplum. It’s at a crag at the other end of Chee Dale, a good 20 minute walk away. Pretty much all the E1s to E4s at Chee Tor are great.

Post edited at 02:47
 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

There’s a bit more trucking along the crack on the RH finish followed by a tricky move or two. As you say, less of a fall. 

In reply to AJM:

RW I find much harder to lead than R, because it’s run out. But there’s no harm in making grade comparisons, especially from people who have years experience of both and it illustrates how people have lost the ability to climb so called trad. to their full potential.

3
 Jon Stewart 16 Jan 2022
In reply to AJM:

> I've not done it but rather suspect if you can do Eastern Hammer (E3 6a) you are in with a good chance on Resurrection.

Me neither. Done resurrection, but never been up to Eastern Hammer. Everyone falls off that, must be a fair bit harder than resurrection. 

Good call on Reecastle - White Noise is maybe like a shorter and less sustained Resurrection. 

> I've not done much there but have you considered places like High Tor

Definitely. Darius isn't that far off resurrection! Chee Tor is great for working up the grades with a bunch of superb pumpy wall climbs. Like Eastern Hammer, the top E3s must be way harder than Resurrection...Everyone falls off Queer Street of course!

 Darkinbad 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Don't try Eastern Hammer first. It will only discourage you.

Not that it isn't a great route.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

No advice to give but a wholehearted "best wishes and good luck"

p.s.  <expletive> any downvotes, look at the upvotes

 Jon Stewart 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

Do you think Prana and Grand Alliance are easier or harder than Resurrection? 

 kingholmesy 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I’d say just go and climb loads of E3s. I don’t think the style really matters, it’s more important that you are comfortable placing and trusting gear, and being happy to press on when you are finding the climbing physically taxing.

My other suggestion is that your sport climbing days will be better spent trying to onsight routes close to your limit, rather than red pointing harder stuff. I think onsighting will be better training physically and mentally.

If you can consistently onsight 6c+/7a and have a decent amount of trad experience you should be fine on Resurrection.

 AJM 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

I think there may be people who can cruise Resurrection having done 1 7b redpoint, but I suspect it's a smaller cohort these days. 

I would tend to go with ~6c/+ for Resurrection personally, which isn't out of line with what others on this thread have said. If it was a well protected 6b+ it would either be E3, or be commonly known to be fairly soft. I think you could argue that if you can onsight 6c/+ with a couple of kilos of trad rack hanging off you whilst stopping to faff with wires at regular intervals then you should be able to onsight 7a/+ fairly comfortably on bolts without that weight, at which point 7b redpoint looks like underperformance in redpoint terms (usual rule of thumb is 3-4 grades difference between max onsight and redpoint).

 AJM 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Do you think Prana and Grand Alliance are easier or harder than Resurrection? 

Easier.....

 Sean Kelly 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Gabe Oliver:

> A good one fashioned psyche enducing thread, love it. I'll throw Memory Lane (E3 5c) into the mix; along with Foil they seem like good stepping stones to the harder Cromlech lines. Not done Foil but Memory Lane was a good tick for feeling the long pitch exposure of the Cromlech. 

> Best of luck with you 2022 ticklish

...and a long reach I seem to recall!

In reply to Misha:

Haha good point. (When you live in London, a crag 20 minutes walk away from another counts as the same place!)

In reply to dominic o:

Cheers, that's super helpful - have to say, currently leaning towards the RH finish...

 B-team 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

In the Pass "What a Difference a Day Makes," "El Guide Direct," and "Rembrandt Pussyhorse" would all provide some good prep, as would "Rimsky" (albeit at E5). 

In reply to kingholmesy:

Yep, that is what I was going to do with the sport climbing. TBH I realised last year that I actually find redpointing really stressful anyway, so I'm more than happy just to go onsight climbing as much as possible.

 Darkinbad 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Cheers, that's super helpful - have to say, currently leaning towards the RH finish...

It's the natural climbing line. The LH requires a conscious decision to launch out into the unknown.

 Darkinbad 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Do you think Prana and Grand Alliance are easier or harder than Resurrection? 

Haven't done either. But if you are looking for peers of Resurrection in the Lakes, then Holocaust might fit the bill.

 seankenny 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> I'd love to do more in Pembroke, but the extra drive time from London does mean other places tend to get plumbed for instead. Then again we bought a van for this kind of thing, and it's not THAT much further than North Wales!

I’ve always found Pembroke a much easier and quicker drive from London than N Wales, especially coming home. I happily do overnight hits to Pembroke which I’d never do for Snowdonia. And often much less driving once you’re actually there. 

Thanks all, this has been super helpful and very psyche-inducing (which I definitely needed - have been feeling a bit un-motivated since the end of last year; classic post goal-achievement blues).

Got a nice ticklish coming along now. To be honest, doing this lot in 2022 would be ruddy good year in and of itself, regardless of what happens on Resurrection!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?sort=gr&id=5612

 Jon Stewart 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Haven't done either. But if you are looking for peers of Resurrection in the Lakes, then Holocaust might fit the bill.

Or indeed Tumble. One Step Beyond has thinner climbing than Resurrection, but is bolder and an easier route.

 AJM 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Or indeed Tumble. One Step Beyond has thinner climbing than Resurrection, but is bolder and an easier route.

Tumble is high on my Lakes list. The last day of the fortnight trip in which I'd done my first E4, then tried Resurrection, then done Equus, Prana, Grand Alliance and so on, and we started walking into Dow on a sweltering muggy day (so much so that we got midges on the summit). Ambitions tumbled, so to speak - it was going to be Tumble when we left the car park, but by the time we got half way up the scree from the tarn there were mutterings about how Eliminate A would offer a nice day out. Eventually, after giving ourselves a bit of a talking to and because we knew it was dry and had been done recently, we did Side Walk (E2 5b).

Still never been back when on form enough for it to be worth a crack.

In reply to AJM:

I hear what you’re saying, but more often than not I couldn’t often onsight 7A, but it was very rarely that I failed on an onsight  E5. For comparison, some old Peak grades from Horshoe quarry before french grades were applied. Shot yer bolt, 6B, sustained E3 5C, Run for your wife 6C+, E4 6B and probably 2 grades harder technically, than Resurrection and Nice face 6B+, formerly E4 6B and again harder.

 AJM 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

Were you just very bold? Or were the E5s you did very different in style from the sports routes you tried?

It's a curious place to be, particularly given most grade conversions suggest that reasonably physical and well protected E5s could have Fr7a climbing on them.

 seankenny 16 Jan 2022
In reply to thread:

Its clear that the “E5/7a discussion” is UKC’s new “what grade is Three Pebble Slab”! More interesting and productive tho. Just to add a rider to Phil’s comments re Horseshoe, I did a route on the main wall there and thought it was a good grade out (stern 6c rather than 6b+). If that holds true across the wall then perhaps Phil and Andy’s points are not so different after all. 


Great thread and I love Paul’s ticklist.

Post edited at 13:29
 Ian Patterson 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Yep, that is what I was going to do with the sport climbing. TBH I realised last year that I actually find redpointing really stressful anyway, so I'm more than happy just to go onsight climbing as much as possible.

Don't know if you have any trips abroad planned but some of the climbing in the Siurana area would be great prep towards Resurrection, particularly El Falco, long sustained vert routes in in the 6c-7a+ range with sometimes spaced bolting to add a bit of spice.  

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Unfortunately we just booked a week in Leonidio over April - but now you point it out Siurana would actually have been a better bet!

(Although actually my partner only leads up to about 6b+ and I don’t think she would enjoy Siurana’s famously tasty bolting!)

1
 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Darius is nowhere near Resurrection! I don’t recall much about Eastern Hammer except that it has some hard moves. Don’t think it’s anywhere as long or sustained as Resurrection though. Queer Street might be similar though. Different style but that’s the thing about the Cromlech, it’s the epitome of face climbing and there isn’t that much pure face climbing around at that grade - our trad routes tend to be more featured.

 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Prana is certainly easier. GA has much shorter pitches, the crux might be a bit harder but overall probably easier on any given pitch. I may be misremembering. 

 Jon Stewart 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Great ticklist!

Just seen that (gasp!) Darius (E3 5c) has been upgraded! Whatever next? I mean, I think it's blatantly E3 (could also be 6a?) and way more so than Scoop Wall (E2 5c) but I've always seen it as one of those "benchmark sandbags" - the line in the sand against grade inflation. Apparently not...

Post edited at 20:27
 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to B-team:

What a Difference is nails at E4 and Rimsky is E5 as you say. Both harder than Ressurrection but great routes. 

In reply to Misha:

> Prana is certainly easier. GA has much shorter pitches, the crux might be a bit harder but overall probably easier on any given pitch. 

I remember GA feeling really quite run out once commited to the hard bit. A lot scarier than Resurrection.

 Misha 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Great list. How about adding Fay and Break on Through at Sharpnose to make it 25…

In reply to Misha:

And thus adding some further impetus to *finally* go to Sharpnose! (Last time I was down that way, I'd fallen off Sacre Coeur (E2 5c) on the Friday, after forgetting to put my helmet on, and was sporting a fantastic fully-closed up black eye, several stitches, and a dollop of concussion, so didn't end up going further down the coast with others that weekend!)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Totally agree Darius (E3 5c) is harder than Scoop Wall (E2 5c), it’s also harder than The Sun (E3 5c) and Left Wall Direct Finish (E3 5c).

 dinodinosaur 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Certain equippers are better bolted than others, you just need to know what names to look for  

 Fellover 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Cheers, that's super helpful - have to say, currently leaning towards the RH finish...

If you want to fall off while safely trying hard do the right hand finish, if you want to actually onsight the route, do the left hand finish.

I think the right hand finish is nails (couldn't work out how to do it atall) and the left hand is a lot easier. I'd also say the left hand finish is perfectly natural, it's a really pretty obvious line of holds going up and left when the crack going rightwards becomes impossibly difficult.

1
 Fellover 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Also, rather going against the grain of the thread:

I think 6b+ is fair for Resurrection, the 6c's in Horseshoe that someone brought up are noticeably harder imho.

I certainly can't reliably onsight 7a on bolts (I had to dog a 6b+ at Swanage on Saturday) so I don't think that's a requirement you need to worry about.

2
 Darkinbad 16 Jan 2022
In reply to Fellover:

I'm sure you're right. It is a long time since I climbed them, but I did the RH finish the first time, probably because climbing a protected crack comes more 'naturally' to me. I can remember it had a pretty stiff move and quite possibly it has also lost some holds over the years. Later, I climbed it via the LH finish and I found it required a distinct mental effort to leave the crack. Both are good. Never heard of anyone doing the Redhead finish (other the eponymous first ascentionist).

 Misha 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Don’t fall off on slabs…

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Blimey, 6b+ for Resurrection, eh? I wouldn't say so myself, but I'm not good at guessing how stuff would feel if you didn't have to hang on and put the gear in.

Someone suggested Holocaust; it's a very different route. Resurrection is endurance; Holocaust cruxy and then slightly scary.

jcm

In reply to seankenny:

>I’ve always found Pembroke a much easier and quicker drive from London than N Wales, especially coming home.

Really?? I'd say NW was quicker if anything. But it has got slower with the restrictions on the M1.

jcm

 AlanLittle 17 Jan 2022
In reply to AJM:

> I thought Right Wall was usually the canvas on which the "how low a French grade can I claim for it" game was played...

I've seen 6a suggested for Flashdance (E5 6a)

2
 seankenny 17 Jan 2022
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> >I’ve always found Pembroke a much easier and quicker drive from London than N Wales, especially coming home.

> Really?? I'd say NW was quicker if anything. But it has got slower with the restrictions on the M1.

Pembroke is motorway and dual carriageway nearly all the way. Whereas the direct route to NW absolutely isn’t, and whilst the indirect route is on big roads, it’s also a fair bit further. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

There's already been loads of good suggestions, and I don't think I've got anything all that original to add; however, I couldn't not get back to a thread about Resurrection, as it's a route I feel strongly about on a crag that means a lot to me.

As a bit of background, I tried Resurrection (note: tried) as one of my early-ish E4s. Unfortunately I don't have an exact record of what I did in/around that time (which would have been really useful), but I suspect it involved the exact routes that are mentioned above: Stroll On, Quasar, Mural, Foil. That specificity of rock type really helped, although didn't help enough, as I found myself getting pretty pumped high up. At the time I didn't do much sport climbing, and I think that would have made a massive difference, although from having done a lot of sport climbing since I'd say to stick to onsight/flash sport climbing rather than get sucked into the redpoint, as the style of the former is very much one of fight, recover and attack. It also teaches you how to rest, and the difference a marginal rest can make, plus how far you can continue when the red light starts flashing. Redpointing gets you good at pre-practising a certain set of moves, which - at least in my opinion - isn't overly helpful as far as trad is concerned.

One piece of advice I was given in/around that was from dark horse Dan McManus, who said "go and get pumped as much as possible". Whilst this may not be the most sophisticated piece of training advice, I think there's a brilliance in its simplicity. One of the most valuable lessons as far as trad is concerned is that when you feel comfortable and relaxed, everything feels easier. If you find yourself becoming nervous the moment you get pumped above gear, you're going to over grip, and if you over grip then everything becomes more challenging. Were I to play devil's advocate perhaps I'd flip what Dan said on its head and say "go out and learn to relax as much as possible". The two statements are potentially the same, albeit with a slightly different focus. 

When it comes to the LH vs. RH finish I'd personally opt for the latter. I've done both and think that the ease/difficulty of each is wildly exaggerated (the LH isn't that easy, the RH isn't that hard). If anything, I'd say that the RH finish is easier, as it has the benefit of being over a lot, lot sooner.

We can discuss Right Wall another time

In reply to Paul Sagar:

The E3s at Chee Tor, as someone mentioned above, would be great training. There's loads of them and they're easily accessible: Absent Friends (E3 5c), Rave On (E3 5c)Less Than Zero (E3 5c)Approaching (E3 5c)Splintered Perspex (E3 6a) (more like E4/5), Of Youth (E3 5c)42nd Street (E3 5c). There's just so many at one crag and they'd probably be graded E3-5 in other places. Mortlock's Arete (E4 6a) is also one of the best E4s anywhere and if you get up that you'll almost certainly get up Resurrection!

High Tor as a few people have mentioned is another great option with loads of E3-5s there as well as the super classic Flaky Wall. As Rob said, being sport fit is a huge advantage for a route like Resurrection. It's a long way and you'll be hanging on for a long time so having as much fitness as possible is really helpful.

 Fellover 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

Horses for courses I suppose. It's nice that a classic route has two options to finish, one hard and safe and another easier but bolder, but both at the same grade - gives everyone a fair chance

I've never even heard of the Redhead finish - where does it go?

 Jon Stewart 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Fellover:

> I certainly can't reliably onsight 7a on bolts

I can never onsight 7a in the UK, but I did resurrection OK.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I’m never quite sure what “7a UK” means. My experience is that even within the UK that can vary drastically - and if anyone from the Peak is involved in the discussion it skews things massively!

1
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Cheers (and to Theo) - loads of good info there!

 AJM 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I can never onsight 7a in the UK, but I did resurrection OK.

You've got to compare like with like - ideally some sort of 35m+ vert-ish wall climb, not a 15-20m bouldery or power endurance number. There may be some 7as like the former in the UK, but the latter is more common!

In reply to AJM:

Plan Z dos (7a) for example?!

one of my few 7a (“7a”) onsights to date…

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Some great routes suggested here, plenty going on my hit list!

I always find the sport grade suggestions fascinating. About 5yrs ago I convinced myself to try left wall on the advice that its only 6b+ (which was my o/s level at the time), and got absolutely spanked.... and in the subsequent attempts over the years (had o/s 7a and still was failing). My learning is the sport grades tend to feel applicable if the route is in your style.... (eg anyone want to suggest a sport grade for the Rasp)

Also the pillar at Diabaig should go on your list.... 

 AJM 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

<Dredges memory banks...>

The wall that breaks left from (or is just left of) the easy corner by where the path comes up, right?

In which case, that sort of thing, probably. I struggle a bit with the idea of people being able to onsight Resurrection but not that, unless this left hand exit really is a lot easier, which Rob seems to suggest it isn't.

In reply to AJM:

Yep that one. 

I’m with you in the view that carrying up several kilos of rack + having to hang around putting bits of it in the rock = a lot harder than a sport climb of nominally a grade or two harder when you’re just clipping bolts

In reply to birks3746:

It’s funny isn’t it? I thought Left Wall was about 6b sport and found it a breeze (but also, I suspect a lot of people read it wrong at the first dogleg and follow the chalk instead of the rock!) You recommend a route at Diabaig, but after the absolute battle I had with the classic HVS there last summer I’d be very nervous of pushing my grade on those slabs! (Though I guess doing it on an overcast day when it’s not blisteringly hot would help)

 Jon Stewart 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> You recommend a route at Diabaig

The pillar is a path compared to LW. Horizontal edges up a slab, slightly bold. For me, much easier than a "proper"/cracky HVS.

In reply to birks3746:

> Some great routes suggested here, plenty going on my hit list!

> I always find the sport grade suggestions fascinating. About 5yrs ago I convinced myself to try left wall on the advice that its only 6b+ (which was my o/s level at the time), and got absolutely spanked....

That is because doing Left Wall is miles harder than doing a 6b+ sport route.

7
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I guess this is exactly the challenge of the sports route grade. I got my ass well and truly kicked on LW and my perspective I agree with Robert's comment, whilst I ran up everything on Diabaig. Agree that pillar is easier, was more suggesting it as one to go onto the resurrection list as it kind of fits the bill and is very good.

 dinodinosaur 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar

Maybe 6a+ for left wall if it was on bolts?  

1
 seankenny 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I can never onsight 7a in the UK, but I did resurrection OK.

Whereas I have often onsighted 7a in the U.K. but would struggle with Resurrection. It’s easy to get fit even living in London but getting enough trad mileage in a relatively short space of time is hard. 

 dinodinosaur 17 Jan 2022
In reply to dinodinosaur:

But would probably be 6b+ in Kalymnos or 5+ in France

1
 Cusco 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

It was an interesting account of the most well protected, bomber gear climb on Culm. 

Apparently, Sharpnose can feel straightforward to those with sport and wall fitness. Just don't trust the pegs. A great crag, especially on a sunny day as the tide is roaring in and your second is standing on a boulder, looking nervous and starting to whimper. 

For Resurrection, King Holmsey's advice above looks good. 

It's way beyond me. But loads of big, classic  E3/E4 trad leads and don't jump on it too soon if you want to maximise the chances of the O/S?

In reply to Cusco:

I suspect he's lost the true O/S if he's read all the posts in this thread 😁

 Alex@home 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Unfortunately we just booked a week in Leonidio over April

Nothing remotely unfortunate about that! Been there twice and can't wait to go back. Loads of 30+m vert routes in the 6c-7a range. Hot Rock is a must so long as it's cloudy. If it's sunny get round to Olympus for amazing long routes that are all a bit steeper but still manage to have rests on them. A few days there should help your fitness along

1
 Ian Patterson 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Theo Moore:

> The E3s at Chee Tor, as someone mentioned above, would be great training. There's loads of them and they're easily accessible: Absent Friends (E3 5c), Rave On (E3 5c)Less Than Zero (E3 5c)Approaching (E3 5c)Splintered Perspex (E3 6a) (more like E4/5), Of Youth (E3 5c)42nd Street (E3 5c). There's just so many at one crag and they'd probably be graded E3-5 in other places. Mortlock's Arete (E4 6a) is also one of the best E4s anywhere and if you get up that you'll almost certainly get up Resurrection!

Glad you left Queer Street off the E3 list!! Definitely harder than Resurrections

 simon cox 17 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi Paul, Resurrection was one of my last reasonable on sights prob ten years ago...  in the past I was a relatively confident climber, so endurance was the key factor for me, so in my prep I trained to do a couple of laps on a fingery 6c+ at the wall, that was enough endurance for me...

I warmed up on Memory Lane, I almost decided against the side runners in Left Wall as I was feeling pretty confident.... though at the top of Resurrection I was grateful of my endurance training...

My top tip is give it a go when you think it is possible rather than wait for uber confidence, also ignore high sport red point grades which you have spent some time on, they mean very little I think in terms of on sighting.

 Simon King 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Have a look at my Logbook for last year. I fell off Resurrection back in the day and reckon all the E5s I did last year were easier!

 Darkinbad 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Simon King:

OK. First, I'm very jealous. Second, I notice that one of those E5s is Right Wall, so I guess you are of the "Resurrection is harder than Right Wall" persuasion, which is a whole topic in itself.

In reply to simon cox:

> My top tip is give it a go when you think it is possible rather than wait for uber confidence

Excellent point.

In my experience, waiting for uber confidence means you end up waiting forever. The same goes for 'saving things for the onsight' too. There's so many routes I think (looking back on it) I could have done if only I'd have got on them, but didn't due to the fact I was waiting for some sort of unattainable state of brilliance.

Blowing the onsight isn't anywhere near as bad as never giving the onsight ago. 

 Jon Stewart 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> In my experience, waiting for uber confidence means you end up waiting forever. The same goes for 'saving things for the onsight' too.

Well said. Even worse is refusing to second routes because you're apparently going to onsight it yourself some day. I reckon in those cases: "either second it now, or I'll strip the route and you'll lead it - which is it to be?".

2
 Simon King 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Darkinbad

Definitely! Pretty much all my climbing is in the  sustained 5b/5c category with the occasional easy 6a move on good holds.

In reply to Darkinbad:

I’ve done all the E5;s on the Cromlech and by some margin R is easier than all of them. With modern fitness and maybe a cheeky top rope ascent people can be easily fooled. Back in the day RW took many notable scalps on sight, but none of them would have fallen off R.

In reply to Simon King:

You were nowhere as fit then. Don’t confuse fitness with technicality. There’s a reason it’s only E4 from a concensus  of guidebook writers. The right hand finish to R has one move harder than RW near to gear, but the rest is easy for the grade and not sustained.

 Simon King 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

Think I need to get back on Resurrection...I thought RW was steady away assuming you don't stress about the gaps between the gear...I also thought True Grip was a path and probably only worth low E4.

 deacondeacon 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Resurrection is my goal for this year too!! This thread is absolute gold. Its great to see a nice, long climbing related thread on here 🙂

In reply to deacondeacon:

> This thread is absolute gold. Its great to see a nice, long climbing related thread on here 🙂

This. Resurrection isn't that high on my to do list but there's a ton of knowledge here that'll help with stuff that is.

 keith sanders 18 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

All this talk about Sport grade and Trad grade, it’s like chalk and cheese Sport all the excellent bolts are in place and if you fall probley not fall far these days , (way bolting is now, ) Where trad involves far more head and trust in your own ability to place and carry gear for on sighting , Well you’ll know that, if you have climb 7a then your dam strong and pretty good , go and do lots of trad routes and place lots off gear and trust your instincts. Some great suggestions on here for routes to do and enjoy them on the way . It’s a great route savour it when you do it .

keith s

6
In reply to Simon King:

I was talking to Martin Atkinson about this post last night and the E5 routes on the Cromlech. He opined RW as 6B, Resurrection 6B+ for one or two moves, Precious 6C+ and Lord as 7A. We both thought True Grip was far and away the easiest.

 Darkinbad 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

6B for RW seems a trifle harsh. You can have a lie-down rest before the crux yet as you have said, it has claimed plenty of scalps.

I'm pretty sure True Grip was E4 when I did it. But then Left Wall was E3 when I did it, so grading inconsistency is nothing new.

 deacondeacon 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

I thought f6b was fair for Right Wall.

Its more like doing two soft E4s on top of each other with a proper rest between. It's the perfect route for climbers who are good at turning there heads off and plodding upwards lol. 

I often think the crux of all the routes at The Cromlech is knowing that there's always people watching you (this freaks me out). 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

All this talk of routes is good for the psych but I think it might be counterproductive.
If you live in London completing just a handful of the routes listed and will take a long time by which point you may have missed rare opportunities to actually do Resurrection, i.e. when you are fit, uninjured, in the area, have a partner. How many days a year does that happen?

Also, what’s the success criteria for the preliminary list? If you fall off some do you have to start again, do you need 5 consecutive successes and then go for it. Better to just climb as much and as often as you can and when you find yourself in Wales on a good day get on the route. 

Post edited at 14:07
1
In reply to deacondeacon:

> I thought f6b was fair for Right Wall.

If Right Wall is French 6b then it is E3/4. Also why would so many people fall off it? Surely anyone who sets foot on an E5 (even a soft touch one) would be able to climb French 6b 100% of the time if the climbing is not too deceptive (which it isn’t)

2
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Well said. Even worse is refusing to second routes because you're apparently going to onsight it yourself some day. 

Why? In '84 I belayed a friend on JR with the agreement that I wouldn't watch (not much anyway) in order to save the onsight. I duly "onsighted" it a couple of days later.

1
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Blowing the onsight isn't anywhere near as bad as never giving the onsight ago. 

As long as blowing the onsight doesn't involve death or whatever.

In reply to Tyler:

> If Right Wall is French 6b then it is E3/4. Also why would so many people fall off it? Surely anyone who sets foot on an E5 (even a soft touch one) would be able to climb French 6b 100% of the time if the climbing is not too deceptive (which it isn’t)

Never underestimate how hard fear makes things feel. A route's reputation, a run-out, route finding and a whole host of other factors can make things feel a lot, lot harder. So whilst it might feel 6b to someone who's totally cool, calm, relaxed and following the right line, to someone who's stressed, climbing up and climbing down a lot, fiddling in gear where there isn't any, it could easily feel a few grades harder, and to them - it really is! 

For this reason there will always be debate around converting trad to sport grades, because everyone's experience is different, and that experience shapes their opinion of the difficulty of the route. The same could also be said for when people are 'on form' or have one of those days where everything feels easy. Rather than acknowledge this form, people tend to instead spin it so that it's the route that's soft or easy, rather than the fact they were on fire.

Whilst I wouldn't personally get on Right Wall thinking "it's 6b, this is going to be easy..." - as this expectation would almost inevitably lead me to have a negative experience - I might actually use this as a mantra when I'm feeling doubt, because I should (at least in theory) be able to relax within that environment.

That said, this is always easier in theory than it is in practise!

 deacondeacon 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Tyler:

Nah, Right Wall is very much at the friendly end of E5 and could just as easily be graded hard E4. It's basically a soft E4 to the girdle ledge, then another soft E4 to the top. Just scraping into soft E5.

If I was on a well bolted 6b id definitely expect to onsight it. One with 5-6m runouts (like you get on Right Wall I may bottle it.

Fear changes the likelihood of success, it doesn't change the difficulty 🙂

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I agree that applying sport grades to trad routes is fraught with difficulties but the routes on the Cromlech walls are as close in style to sport routes as any trad routes I know of and Right Wall is harder than French 6b. When I did RW I pissed it but, even so, I would not have been happy hanging about on the holds below the crux because it would be tiring. At that time I would have been happy hanging about on more or less any holds on any French 6b. Similarly the crux required a bit of commitment, a surprisingly irreversible lock, harder than the cruxes of any f6b. I've seconded it since and thought much the same thing.

I think the French grade of many trad routes does get exaggerated but f6b for RW makes no sense to me when when pumpy E3 can also be 6b/+, bold E4 can still be 6b and well protected E5 can be f7b (RW is not that badly protected). 

Looking at the two dislikes I might be in the minority but this is a hill I'm prepared to die on!

EDIT: Do you think it is f6b and E5? 

Post edited at 15:13
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Nah, Right Wall is very much at the friendly end of E5 and could just as easily be graded hard E4. It's basically a soft E4 to the girdle ledge, then another soft E4 to the top. Just scraping into soft E5.

At f6c its still at the friendly end of E5! There aren't many safe but bold E5s at f6c, I can't think of any at f6b but I am all ears!

> If I was on a well bolted 6b id definitely expect to onsight it. One with 5-6m runouts (like you get on Right Wall I may bottle it.

You might bottle it but would you fall off? People fall off RW because it has fall offablre moves and because you have to do a couple of hardish moves into the crux.

> Fear changes the likelihood of success, it doesn't change the difficulty 🙂

Post edited at 15:12
 wynaptomos 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Tyler:

I totally agree. I was regularly on-sighting 7a when I did RW. I found that bit above the ledge very pumpy to the extent that I almost fluffed the crux. So I think definitely 6c or even soft 6c+

In reply to Si dH:

> You should also go to Dovedale and do Adjudicator Wall, hard E3 doesn't get any better (disclaimer, I fell off near the top.)

There's a route that's been at the back of my mind for a while and time is running out!

What's the gear like, really?  It would be a good objective to get myself properly fit for this summer if I could be sure I can't kill myself!

In reply to Tyler:

> Looking at the two dislikes I might be in the minority but this is a hill I'm prepared to die on!

I don't think you've said anything too radical or objectionable, plus you've got a valid and interesting point - hence why I'm back for more

> EDIT: Do you think it is f6b and E5? 

I think, following on from everything I've said already, I'm in the group that has an extremely unreliable opinion with regards to the grade, because back when I did it I was on form. In addition to this I was absolutely cemented in 'trad mode' - hence relished the run outs. If anything I think the run-outs are a part of what made Right Wall feel so much more straightforward than Resurrection, because there's very little hanging around in comparison, and it's 'plug and play' style means you can race between the breaks, rest, and repeat.

What makes my opinion even more unreliable is that I've done it several times since, so much so that at one stage it almost felt like part of 'the circuit'. It's a route I really love, but also a route I felt really comfortable on, and as such I'd treat whatever grade I say is it with caution. However, in the name of good humour and debate, here's a few thoughts:

To me, at the time, maybe it was 6b/+.

To me now, it'd probably feel more like 7a.

For what it's worth I've never, ever questioned it being anything other than E5. Granted, it's probably soft, but I'd still say it's E5. I know plenty of people that have fallen off it and, like you suggested within your post, these people wouldn't be falling for no reason - it's a tricky route!

As a final thank-you to every posting: I haven't been doing much climbing lately, partly because of me focussing on running, and partly because of focussing on family, but can I just say how much I've enjoyed this thread. Routes like Resurrection and Right Wall are the best and aspiring to do them - and subsequently doing them - meant so much to me. It's great to see other people go through that journey.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> To me, at the time, maybe it was 6b/+.

> To me now, it'd probably feel more like 7a.

Yes, but that doesn't tell us much about what French grade it really is. I think the only way to find out is for someone to go and put a load of bolts in it so that we can get a consensus on what it actually feels like as a sports route. My money's on 6c/+.

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, but that doesn't tell us much about what French grade it really is. I think the only way to find out is for someone to go and put a load of bolts in it so that we can get a consensus on what it actually feels like as a sports route. My money's on 6c/+.

I quite liked my two-tier "if you're on form it'll feel easy, if not it'll feel hard" system, but alas - I'll grant you it's not an overly precise set of calculations

 Si dH 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> There's a route that's been at the back of my mind for a while and time is running out!

> What's the gear like, really?  It would be a good objective to get myself properly fit for this summer if I could be sure I can't kill myself!

Adjudicator Wall is totally safe for an experienced climber. There is enough good gear and I don't remember ever feeling run-out, the difficulty is that the moves are hard and there are a lot of them.

Post edited at 15:52
In reply to Si dH:

With 30+ ascents of RW bullock's probably the man to ask about the grade

In reply to Alex Riley:

> With 30+ ascents of RW bullock's probably the man to ask about the grade

His opinion is even less reliable than mine - he's soloed it!

Post edited at 16:06
In reply to Si dH:

On no, another one for my list then!

 PaulJepson 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

If someone is feeling brave (or has a good enough disguise), you could drop a static down the side of the line with QDs tied at 3m intervals. 

No harm done and the baying mob gets what it wants. 

Would make a good warmup for Resurrection too, I'm sure. 

In reply to Si dH:

> Adjudicator Wall is totally safe for an experienced climber. There is enough good gear and I don't remember ever feeling run-out, the difficulty is that the moves are hard and there are a lot of them.

Hmmm.  Assuming you can let go for long enough to get the gear in it sounds like it might be a plausible objective.  Maybe I'll go and stare at it for long enough to persuade myself. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

> If someone is feeling brave (or has a good enough disguise), you could drop a static down the side of the line with QDs tied at 3m intervals. 

Let me know when you're doing this. I'll cut some eye holes in a paper bag and come join you.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

You're probably right! I didn't mind him reading my gear from a failed attempt though 🤣

In reply to Misha:

> Great list. How about adding Fay and Break on Through at Sharpnose to make it 25…

Fay is top end E4 if you're not that fit. I thought it E5, but then I wasn't that fit. If you're fit enough not to get pumped stupid (I wasn't) it may feel more like E3...

In reply to Tyler:

I’ve never done RW, I’ve never considered trying as I’m not an E4 or E5 climber. If it really is 6b I would expect a lot of people like me who are E2 climbers(on a good day)could try it on top rope a couple of times, check the gear then give it a go. 
I am totally of the view that trad and on-sight trad is much harder than a sport route of the same physical difficulty, yes fear does make things harder. Even so 6b…really? I very much doubt it.

I’d say Left Wall would be 6a/6a+ if bolted, Left Wall direct 6a+/6b, RW must be at least 6b+ and probably 6c.

3
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Fay is top end E4 if you're not that fit. I thought it E5, but then I wasn't that fit. If you're fit enough not to get pumped stupid (I wasn't) it may feel more like E3...

When I first tried it I remember being in the E5 camp. Much like you, I wasn’t that fit (certainly not modern ‘sport fit’). I went back years later, and loads fitter, expecting it to cruise it, but still found that crux tough. As such, I’m still awaiting my E4 experience on it, as it’s felt E5 every time.

 kingholmesy 19 Jan 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:
 

I’m with Mark on this. On my first attempt on Fay I fell off pumped at the crux, pulled back on and fought to the top with arms full of lactic acid. I repeated it a year later when I was a bit fitter and found it a path comparatively. Overall I think hard E4 is fair.

 Misha 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

No way is RW 6b and equally no way is Precious 3 grades harder than RW! I could go with 6c for RW and 6c+ for Precious. It’s not that much harder. 

1
 Misha 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

From my logbook for Fay:

Very much my style, steep but not overhanging face climbing, mildly technical in places but above all requires stamina and being able to use the rests. Felt pumpier than it probably would have been if I'd had a proper warm up but even so it was fine as I could shake out every couple of moves. Really good, the kind of route I'd happily do again! Hard E3 5c in my book but I can do stamina routes...

I’d probably find it E6 at the moment…

Post edited at 03:43
In reply to Misha:

I’d go with 6B+ for RW and 6C for Precious and possibly 7A+ for Lord, just! At the end of the day it’s how you find a route on the day, but I have done RW and R a few times, the others only once. The first time I did an early ascent with Rab in the late 70,s I actually fell off climbing back down to the girdle ledge for a rest. Hit the ledge and stopped, nearly rattled my teeth out. Chris Gore nearly fell the length of the route at about the same time, so without wall training etc it felt hard. 

In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Fay is top end E4 if you're not that fit. 

Does that mean it is E7 if you are fat, unfit and useless?

Such statements simply don't make sense. Can I add a grade to most routes I do because I naturally lack finger strength?

Grading for individuals or individuals in particular states of training is meaningless. Yes, if good walls for endurance training mean that climbers are on average fitter, then there is an argument for down grading endurance routes, but that is a different issue.

Post edited at 15:45
3
In reply to Robert Durran:

Interesting as always and I agree grades are grades and shouldn't be reassessed according to the state of one's waistline, general state of training or inherent skills.  Otherwise my 'E7' list would be mighty impressive!

Not sure about the 'argument for downgrading routes', although (as banter) my old climbing partner and I were always privately dismissive of some of the top ascents on similar grounds - 'well it would be easy if we were able to train instead of go to work / easy if we were able to pick and choose the conditions / a grade easier if you don't have kids' etc.  I hope that training a particular attribute (stamina, finger strength, weight or technique) through whatever means possible might make things feel easier, but if it leads to downgrades would indeed (as you note) be 'meaningless' (grading for individuals in particular states of training).  I must, as a person who has to be dragged to an indoor wall, declare an interest here

 PaulJepson 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yeah can I add some extra grades to anything bold I've done, since I'm a coward?

In reply to PaulJepson:

> Yeah can I add some extra grades to anything bold I've done, since I'm a coward?

Apparently. Though one could argue that one can only adjust grades for genetic traits and I don't know whether cowardice has a genetic component. Such genetic claims seem most often made for dwarfism in my experience.

In reply to PaulJepson:

Of course.  Isn't this happening anyway?  I'll get my coat...

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Such statements simply don't make sense. 

Fay was originally graded E5 (1988 guide), but downgraded to E4 for the 2000 guide presumably on the basis that climbers were much fitter. I fell from the last move, pumped stupid in 2003 at the time I was a fairly steady E4 leader. With stamina training I went back and led it the following year (I'd also seconded it in the early 90s) There was much debate about the grade when we were writing the 2021 guide. The sort of opinions we got were along the lines of E4 leaders think it's E5 and fit E5 leaders think it's a soft touch at E4. In the end we settled for E4 - as Stu Bradbury (who wrote Sharpnose) pointed out, if we were to give Fay E5 we'd have to upgrade Pacemaker as it is significantly harder.

In the context of the OP I would argue that my comments on the grade make a lot of sense. Depending on fitness the OP could easily get competely spanked on Fay but still happily climb Resurrection, so as a training climb for the latter it might not fit the bill.

 rachelpearce01 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Cream at tremadog for entry level e4 (nice and safer climbing than the e3s at tremadog)

Katana at holyhead mountain 

Rembrant pussyhorse at gravestones 

Strike at gogarth upper tier 

civetta at carreg alltrem (hard and safe, takes as much gear as you can throw at it!)

Great wall at craig forwyn

Clogwyn yr adar has a load of routes e3 to e5, found them to be pretty steady with some sport fitness and they generally have new pegs on them. Good fun single pitch cragging (find it in the great new moelwynion guide)

1
 Ian Patterson 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> In the context of the OP I would argue that my comments on the grade make a lot of sense. Depending on fitness the OP could easily get competely spanked on Fay but still happily climb Resurrection, so as a training climb for the latter it might not fit the bill.

I agree. I climbed Fay in the late 90s when I, and most of the people I climbed with, mixed trad climbing with sport onsighting and repointing which developed fitness and the ability to be relatively comfortable on steep wall climbs.  I think Fay was still given E5 at the time but I found it pretty steady with decent holds and opportunities to recover - I would definitely agree with E4, particularly compared with Black Magic and Darkinbad which we'd done a couple of days before.  My partner did Pacemaker and again he thought E5 particularly in context of fact that onsighting E6 was a big deal for him and not something he did many times.

The overall point being that the skills and abilities of keen weekend trad climbers were possibly changing during that period and that could impact the relative grading of routes

 Jon Stewart 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

>> Even worse is refusing to second routes because you're apparently going to onsight it yourself some day. 

> Why?


Because it's annoying. I've driven a few hours to some great crag with routes I haven't done and they look good in the guidebook, right grade for me. But now, what I'm allowed to climb is going to be governed not by what we'd both like to do, but by what you think now you might want to do at some unspecified point in the future? No, you can piss off!

I'm not talking about the situation where you'd both like to do it, I'm talking about someone who isn't good enough now saying that they want to onsight it future, and for this reason, you've got to choose another route. If it's a big route and you really believe they're going to climb it soon, and they're a good friend, I might make an exception. If it's a really special route. But otherwise it's just total bollocks.

Post edited at 22:13
3
 deacondeacon 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Agreed. It would take a special type of arsehole to refuse to belay on a route in case they lose an onsight lol

I'm sure people seem to forget that the whole thing is just messing about on rocks. 🙂

 Misha 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

Yeah wall training makes these face routes easier for sure. Whatever the grade, they are such classics that it’s  always great to repeat them. That’s the main thing really…

 Jon Stewart 20 Jan 2022
In reply to deacondeacon:

Aye. You gotta relax about these things. There's a few routes mentioned on this thread where I have "lost the onsight" because at the time, my mate was better than me and they got on the route. Fay (E4 5c) is one. I went and did it a year or 2 later. I didn't onsight it - yeah, cause I wasn't good enough that day so I did Break On Through (E4 5c) instead cause everyone knows it's piss.

Eastern Hammer (E3 6a) is the kind of thing I could keep "saving for the onsight" but it's probably never going to happen cause I'm too shit and I'm getting worse. Luckily for my mythical future onsight, when I belayed someone on it this year they didn't get anywhere near the top and had to ab for the gear🤣

Post edited at 22:28
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Because it's annoying. I've driven a few hours to some great crag with routes I haven't done and they look good in the guidebook, right grade for me. But now, what I'm allowed to climb is going to be governed not by what we'd both like to do, but by what you think now you might want to do at some unspecified point in the future? No, you can piss off!

We may have misunderstood each other. I assumed you were talking about a single pitch route. In which case I think it would be unreasonable not to ab for the gear and insist your partner seconded it. And it would also be unreasonable for the second to refuse to belay you on it to preserve the purity of their later ascent. 

>  If it's a big route and you really believe they're going to climb it soon, and they're a good friend, I might make an exception. If it's a really special route. But otherwise it's just total bollocks.

For multi-pitch routes I think good climbing partners should be able to agree amicably what to climb together. If they are both climbing at similar standards then the hard pitches would proabably be shared and if you get the crux pitch this time then probably your partner would next time. If there is a significant disparity in standard I don't think it is reasonable to expect a partner to be dragged up something unless that is what they want.

Post edited at 22:48
In reply to deacondeacon:

> Agreed. It would take a special type of arsehole to refuse to belay on a route in case they lose an onsight lol

Yes, I agree.

> I'm sure people seem to forget that the whole thing is just messing about on rocks. 🙂

Yes, but I am sure that for most of us, certain routes have at some time meant much, much more to us than that seems to imply.

 Jon Stewart 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> We seem to have misunderstood each other. I assumed you were talking about a single pitch route

What do you mean by single pitch? If it's totally straightforward to strip the route - say a crag with lower-offs, then fair enough, but mostly it's way easier just to go climbing in the normal way where one person leads and the other seconds and then you swap over. It makes for a more fun day as well, you've both climbed the same routes, you can congratulate each other on their "good leads" cause you followed them up, etc. 

At 42 years old I am officially too old for "saving for the onsight". 

1
 deacondeacon 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think crag choice makes a big difference.

A single pitch crag that can be stripped by the leader easily, should be a-okay. If my partner refused to belay me on it I'd be well pissed off.

If it was a multipitch route out of my partners league, or he didn't want to ab in to an intimidating sea pitch then that's completely reasonable.

Refusing to belay for fear of losing the onsight is ridiculous.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> What do you mean by single pitch? If it's totally straightforward to strip the route - say a crag with lower-offs, then fair enough, but mostly it's way easier just to go climbing in the normal way where one person leads and the other seconds and then you swap over. It makes for a more fun day as well, you've both climbed the same routes, you can congratulate each other on their "good leads" cause you followed them up, etc. 

I think that if such things can't be resolved amicably by both of them, agreeing on where to climb and what routes to do without someone's coveted onsight/flash being blown then it's probably a pretty rubbish partnership and they should probably look for other partners.

> At 42 years old I am officially too old for "saving for the onsight". 

Well I'm 58 next week and there are some onsights I've been saving since you were at primary school

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> At 42 years old I am officially too old for "saving for the onsight". 

Well, at 66 I’ve never really been bothered that much about the on-sight, I think I could easily claim a number of retro-flashes though. 

 Jon Stewart 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Well, at 66 I’ve never really been bothered that much about the on-sight, I think I could easily claim a number of retro-flashes though. 

Too right. For the majority of the kind of classic routes we're talking about, if you seconded it years ago it's still a big deal when you lead the thing and manage not to fall off. To derail the thread further, the idea that having seconded a route years ago somehow makes it a "redpoint" is patently absurd. It's almost the same experience as leading onsight in many cases, depending on how much time has elapsed.

 Darkinbad 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Fay was originally graded E5 (1988 guide), but downgraded to E4 for the 2000 guide presumably on the basis that climbers were much fitter...

Can I still have E6 for Pacemaker, given that climbers were less fit then? 😊

I recall my mate dragging me down to do it before it was downgraded in the upcoming guide.

 deacondeacon 20 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

With my fuxxed memory I'm pretty sure I could onsight the same route twice in a year lol.

I went to Malham a few weeks ago for what I thought was the first time in 4 years but I'd  had a day of trad there in September! Hardly the most forgettable crag! I'm pretty sure I'd have an onsight experience on any of the routes I had climbed on that day.

Robert Durran: There are definitely some routes I wouldn't second as i was saving them for an onsight (funnily enough Resurrection is one of them), but I would definitely belay a mate on them. If, in some people's eyes that means I've lost the onsight, that's fine with me 🙂

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Depends so much on your memory for routes; I remember quite a lot but someone I used to climb with could quite easily do onsight ascents of the same route in consecutive weeks 😁

In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Well, at 66 I’ve never really been bothered that much about the on-sight, I think I could easily claim a number of retro-flashes though. 

I actually think that retro flashes/onsights can be psychologically harder the original ascent if you had a hard time first time round. I very nearly blew the moves to the Girdle ledge on RW and almost pumped out right at the top of the LH finish to Resurrection in '84. I've not done them since but I think that I would now find them very intimidating even if I knew I was going well enough to do them OK.

 Misha 22 Jan 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Equally if you found something steady there’s the worry that this time you’ll blow it or at least have a hard time.

In reply to Tyler:

Oh don’t worry, we bought a van last year and my girlfriend is my most regular climbing partner. We’re quite used to spending every weekend on the road and even better we have a club hut in Capel Curig. Also I’m a research academic so I basically work when I choose (ie when it is raining or I have to be on campus to teach)
 

If you look at my logbook you’ll see I have no trouble getting out

(I realise I’m REALLY lucky to be able to live this way. Though we are plotting a move to live in Sheffield anyway).

1
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

FWIW the day I onsighted Left Wall I seconded Right Wall (fell off once near the top). I’d say f6c+ for RW, based on how hard it felt and what I was sometimes onsighting in sport at the time (6c/soft 6c+). But doing it on lead would have felt A LOT harder than sport 6c+. Those runouts, man…

1
In reply to rachelpearce01:

Thanks those are great suggestions! (Also, I’ve stalked your logbook loads of times, as you seem to climb similar stuff to me but with a couple of grades added on, so I’m particularly interested in your views/suggestions!)

 rachelpearce01 22 Jan 2022
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Haha the old ukc stalking, we all do it 😂 

1
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> You recommend a route at Diabaig, but after the absolute battle I had with the classic HVS there last summer I’d be very nervous of pushing my grade on those slabs! 

Route 2? All of the other routes discussed here are way above me, but I did Route 2 a few years back and as well as superb, thought it was pretty straightforward and not scary at all. But having said all that we looked at the Pillar and it looked a lot steeper than the slabs, it also LOOKS really bold although friends who have done it assure me it isn't!

 AlanLittle 22 Jan 2022
In reply to TobyA:

The Pillar is fine; you're above your gear at times but always standing in balance on good enough holds. Whereas I found the runout on Dire Straights (E2 5b), which was E1 in the guidebook at the time, very scary.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

> FWIW the day I onsighted Left Wall I seconded Right Wall (fell off once near the top). I’d say f6c+ for RW, based on how hard it felt and what I was sometimes onsighting in sport at the time (6c/soft 6c+). But doing it on lead would have felt A LOT harder than sport 6c+. Those runouts, man…

Hopefully my various ramblings regarding when you're going well, everything feels soft, give me enough wiggle room to acknowledge that my judgement isn't necessarily accurate!!

With regards to the run-outs, I still maintain these are what makes it easier (or at least it did for me), as you haven' got to faff around fiddling in gear. You place gear in/around the various ledges, then maybe place a piece or two whilst leaving them, then go go go.

Either way, it would suffice to say I'd probably find it desperate at the moment, as I'm most definitely not going well!!

 Simon King 24 Jan 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

Think MAs a bit harsh there! How about RW 6C, Res 6C+ and TG 6B+. I seconded JR back in the day but can't remember anything about it...might be next for a old person's OS...Precious also in the back of my mind...


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