UKC

This is shared from a Facebook group created by Roberto Lopez, author of the new Costa blanca guidebook -

ESCALADORES/AS QUE VISITÁIS COSTA BLANCA, NECESITAMOS VUESTRA AYUDA!!!
CLIMBERS WHO VISIT COSTA BLANCA, WE NEED YOUR HELP !!!

Con la futura entrada en vigor de la normativa que regula la Red Natura 2000 en la provincia de Alicante, la práctica totalidad de las zonas de escalada existentes en Costa Blanca corren el riesgo de ser prohibidas. Por ello, necesitamos la ayuda de tod@s l@s escaladores/as que visitáis habitualmente esta zona, para que las administraciones y los entes de gobierno conozcan el verdadero impacto turístico y económico que genera la escalada en este territorio.
New regulations regarding of the Natura 2000 Network will be adopted in the near future in the province of Alicante, practically all the climbing areas of the Costa Blanca are in severe risk of being unequipped as a result of a lack of dialogue and understanding of the sport that we practice. For this reason, we need your help, if you have ever visited  this climbing paradise, so we can share real data with the administration and government bodies about climbing tourists and its positive economic impact in this area.

Para ello, simplemente os pedimos que completéis este sencillo formulario y que lo compartáis con el mayor número de escaladores/as posible.
In order to do this, we are only asking you to fulfil this quick and simple form, and share it with as many climbers as possible.

No podemos permitir que la escalada en Costa Blanca desaparezca!!!  
 We cannot leave this to happen, specially in one of the best worldwide climbing destinations!!!

COMUNIDAD VALENCIANA (Valencia y Castellón): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfqmjGx_r0dlBwVtMgkqGOO9kMR2H2vV25...

ESPAÑA (Excepto Comunidad Valenciana): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGgAxT1HCZTLQ2SXq5muiQAJzN33h1XAE...

RESTO DEL MUNDO / WORLDWIDE: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeM0IsCTvRIf7JqY9eyqVzfp17Cl-DQTvZ...

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

If this is the case, surely it's also an area where the BMC could do a lot of good in making the case for the value and importance of the area to UK climbers?

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done/Bump

In reply to Tom Blake: done . Bump . 
to all : you need to click the last link in the OP for the English version . From my iPhone it needed a google account to log in , not sure if it would work  without ? It really is short . How many times have you been climbing in Spain  in the last ten years ? How long for ? Where did you stay ? How much did you spend ? Hopefully you went lots of times and spent lots of money ? ( I think that’s the point ?) 

In reply to mike123:

Costa Blanca specifically, not all of Spain. So I didn't fill in the form because I've not climbed there.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Nice one for highlighting this.

Done, and will spread the word

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done!

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done. The options for how many stays only go’s up to ten, but we’ve stayed loads more times than that,

Also, given the importance that winter sun climbing has for U.K. climbers, this is absolutely something the BMC should get involved in to represent us in an access issue.

paul

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done, though somewhat conflicted over this. Whilst UK climbers contribute something to the Spanish economy it is obviously better from a local conservation and environmental viewpoint to for us to stay at home. As much as I like climbing in Spain. 

I thought the bit in the survey about substantiating expenditure was a bit odd. I suspect most people don't keep receipts for restaurants shopping, etc. 

In reply to TobyA: thanks . Good to know . Very helpful . 

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done.  A shame that there isn't an opportunity to explain things, as I have a flat and regularly take 6 people out to climb.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

It would have to be done diplomatically, the Spanish have every right do decide on access in Spain.  If done badly it may well just end throwing oil on the fire, and the BMC is probably the right organisation to represent UK climbers is this.

In reply to kipper12:

Visiting climbers represent a significant contribution to the regions tourist income. IM Sure that once this is pointed out the 'right' people will ensure this never happens.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Thanks for finding this and posting. I’ve completed it. 
It would be good to know if the BMC could help.

In reply to Sandstonier:

Is this true ? Compared with Benidorm or Alicante beach goers I suspect its peanuts.  Especially as climbers generally want to do their trips 'on the cheap, staying in ex pats bunkhouses etc.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

here is the valencia govs proposals, in a google doc posted on the facebook thread.

there are some maps of the regions affected

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hc_rqKjEXKFTcMKLJDRztKH6E9WzHxjP

if the green areas indicate 'no climbing' then this affects the following crags, afaics
(this is a big assumption, obvs! My spanish is nowhere good enough to understand the doc)

sella (all of it) (page 17 and 18)
echo valley (page 18 - may be just on the edge)
puig campana (page 19)
castellets (page 19)
bernia ('altea' crags, magic flute, mascarat) (page 21)
toix (incl castellet del calp, pirates, candelabre del sol) (page 22)
lliber (penya roja) (page 24)
cherry/cerezas/garx (page 16)
there are probably more on the first few pages, I don't know those areas too well

In reply to C Witter:

Firstly let me say I'd be really upset if much of the brilliant Costa Blanca climbing is lost to climbers and ill be responding to the petition. 

However, I really don't see the benefit of the BMC getting involved with crag access battles outside England/Wales (of which there are many, many others).  I don't see it as their remit, nor do I see how they can resource "overseas campaigns".

In reply to GrahamD:

I’d say you’re probably right, particularly as the number of climbers is probably dwarfed by beach goers. 

However climbers contribution to the economy shouldn’t be dismissed, especially as much of it comes in the off season, which helps businesses stay open and continue to provide employment through the winter months.

Anyway, have filled in the form. I’d be gutted if this happens, I’ve only been once but it was certainly going to be the first of many trips until coronavirus and my other half’s pregnancy got in the way!

In reply to GrahamD:

"The BMC is the national representative body that champions the interests of climbers, hill walkers, mountaineers and ski mountaineers in England and Wales"

That could be read two ways. Does it mean that it represents climbers' interests only in England and Wales, or does it mean that it represents the interests of English and Welsh climbers?  The BMC works with Mountaineering Scotland, and it frequently offers advice on overseas destinations, so it apparently does not regard itself as strictly geographically limited. 

Spain was perhaps the first of the main "sun rock" destinations for British climbers and remains very popular. I for one would not see it as outside the BMC's remit to get involved.  It would not be running an access campaign itself but supporting local climbers and organisations.

I am finding it difficult to complete the survey.  I used to visit the Costa Blanca annually for several years, but more recently I had been travelling to other destinations.  However a trip back in 2019 reminded me how good it is, and I had certainly intended to return had Covid not intervened.  The survey doesn't allow me comment on that, so my one visit in the last 10 years might not carry as much weight as it should. On my last visit I took a group of about a dozen people, we hired a large villa and two cars, and ate out most evenings, so we spent quite a few euros outside the main holiday season.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

I get the general message, but my Spanish is nowhere near good enough to understand this. Could someone please explain in more detail what just what is being proposed and how this will threaten climbing?  Is it a wholesale debolting and no climbing allowed anywhere within these zones?

In reply to Howard J:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't see the BMC getting involved in Hampi, or getting embroiled in Mt Blanc access debates, or any other overseas campaigns.  It has to draw a line and the logical line is looking after access to our own crags.

Whether looking after sun Rock destinations is in the interests of UK climbers rather depends where you stand on the environmental aspects of overseas travel in any case.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

It looks like they are implementing EU habitat/environmental/bird protection legislation to form the following designated areas as part of the EU wide Natura 2000 network of protected areas.

(via Google translate, with Acronyms as per the Spanish Google Doc link)

- Special Protection Zones for Birds (ZEPAS)

- Places of Community Importance (SCI)

- Special Conservation Zones (ZEC)

Google Translate seems to give up after Page 21.  Its hard to glean (not being able to read Spanish) if there are any stated plans to restrict access/climbing within the Annexes of the document. I'm guessing the many hunters in the region (and their associations) will be all over it (i.e. looking at the implications for them etc).

In the UK, our equivalents (to meet EU requirements for Natura 2000 network) are:

- Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) [protection of habitats]

https://jncc.gov.uk/our-work/special-areas-of-conservation-overview/

https://sac.jncc.gov.uk/site/england

- Special Protection Areas (SPAs) [conservation of wild birds]

https://jncc.gov.uk/our-work/special-protection-areas-overview/

https://jncc.gov.uk/our-work/list-of-spas/

I've seen a stat that says that 18% of the land area of the EU (pre-Brexit) is within the Natura 2000 network (https://www.bsg-ecology.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Natura-2000-post-Bre...)

(these still exist in UK post-Brexit)

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done. Thanks for giving us this opportunity to help. I'd be gutted to lose these climbing sites as I've been a regular visitor for two decades. Had the pleasure of seeing you at the crag a couple of times. Please keep us informed here on ukc of any developments both negative and (hopefully!! 🤞) positive. 

In reply to C Witter:

What are the Spanish version of the BMC doing? Anyone know?

In reply to GrahamD:

Probably worth remembering that most climbers visit in the slack season,

Chris

In reply to ChrisJD:

You can see the extent of the sites by zooming in here: https://natura2000.eea.europa.eu/

In reply to ChrisJD:

It would indeed be useful to have some accuracy on the matter especially knowing the somewhat sensationalist way some Spanish activists go about things!

I live by an affected area in Germany and for instance one of larger areas in the Frankenjura ( the cliffs along under Gossweinstein) are in a FFH area but it's status has no effect on climbing since it only relates to the trees there. The area by me is only birds and restricts when the farmer mows the meadow.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Is this an empty threat?

De-equipping all of the sport routes in the effected areas would be a massive undertaking.

A half-hearted attempt by removing the first or second bolts would be overcome by longer clip sticks.

Policing access would be a lot more difficult than guarding the access to the gorge at El Chorro

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done.

Mick

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Did no one see this coming.  Given the glacial speed the EU moves, this would very likely to have been in the pipeline for a while.  If this is the case, how far from implementation in Spain, and elsewhere are we.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Survey completed, I hope it is successful. I found it very odd to be asked to underpin my spends with invoices and receipts though, it's a holiday not a business trip and I have never had a receipt from a Benidorm Lapdance. 

In reply to kipper12:

Well it exists since 1990 whatever and all the Bavarian areas registered 2004, what the Spanish do who knows?

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Done, and disseminated.

In reply to jimtitt:

1992 for the Habitats Directive (also covers some species) & 1979 for the Birds Directive. Most of the Spanish sites had been proposed by the late 1990s so difficult to understand why this is becoming an issue now. As you say, in many countries climbing (& other activities) are allowed in these sites but as they are 'directives' the detail of implementation is up to each country, & in many cases, the regional authorities.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Hi Jonathan,

I asked Michele (fluent Spanish) to have a look at this and she did. It's hard going, - very bureaucratic indeed. I get the feeling that it's something that's been bobbing around under the surface for years (decades?) and has suddenly popped up as a box ticking exercise. But that makes it no less dangerous.

As it seems to affect other user groups (e.g. walkers, mountain bikers, hunters (yuk!)), I would think a coalition of such user groups might have a greater chance of having their voices heard. But obviously each user group will have their own agenda. Tricky.

Especially in a post-Brexit era, getting the BMC involved might be counterproductive ("Telling us what to do in our own country!") I suspect that opposition would best be Spanish led. While it's unrealistic to debolt every crag, bans could be enforced via massive fines.

Given what's happened in the Grampians, I think we need to take this very seriously indeed.

Mick

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Thanks for highlighting mate - all done

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

I'm not sure why it's suddenly reared its head. I thought nature2000 measures were fully in place 15+ years ago. There is certainly no eu push that I know of, each country is just left to manage the existing sites. 

Each site will have specific written guidance according to why it was awarded  the status in the first place. So no two crag areas are likely to be exactly the same. 

In reply to Mick Ward:

There is a lot of stuff on the Commission website, in English too.  It would take a good while to get to the bottom of it.  It would really help to have contact with someone who’s job this.  Though we’ve left the EU, we’ve largely mirrored existing EU law.  It’s possible the EA would be able to help.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

The reason seems to be environmental protection of some kind. I would want to understand that in more detail before signing a petition (not that I’ve ever been to Spain anyway, so not in a position to sign it). There may be valid reasons as to why climbing needs to be restricted - protecting flaura and fauna etc. Or it could be a misunderstanding of the impact climbers have. 

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Probably worth linking to this post for another local perspective https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/climbing_restrictions_in_the_co...

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

A few clarifications: Valencia receives 20 million int'l visitors every year (plus a large number of national visitors). So, yes, climbers are a small portion, also off-season.

In Spain it tends to take a long time between declaration of a protected/ conservation area and planning and regulatory enforcement. Public use management (which includes climbing) is a necessary part of that planning.

The doc is a law draft to add a protection figure to 5 areas. It seems to suggest, much like in other regions in the country, that climbing (and canyoning, according to the wording) need regulation to make them compatible with environmental conservation. The key mentions to climbing in this document are in pages 66 and 80 (look up 'escalada'). The document says climbing & canyoning are incompatible in sensitive habitats due to the presence of certain species (particularly an aigle, Aquila fasciata). This doesn't mean 'all' the areas in the map, nor, seemingly, all zones A, B and C. In such areas, once climbing areas are identified (and one could expect another extended process here), access will be regulated in negotiation & agreement between the corresponding environmental agency, each city council and relevant actors, and depending on the fauna and flora of the specific area.

In other regions in the country where different levels of protection have been enforced earlier, the outcome RE climbing has been access regulation to ensure climbing doesn't affect sensitive species, such as banning climbing near nesting areas of endangered species during certain months of the year. Maybe there have been other developments in this specific case that have raised concern, but this document doesn't say much more than the above concerning climbing.

In reply to aio:

*10 million, rather than 20

In reply to ebdon:

Thanks for linking that! 

So it seems new routes with excessive cleaning in a protected area without any permission, and a new sector in a protected area where new development is even outright forbidden. If true, I'd say good riddance, chop it!

Such one-sided sector development undermines any future climbing access and it is just harmful for climbers in the long run.

I have seen it elsewhere in countries with much geographically smaller protected areas, like Elbsandstein. Local climbers' associations have negotiated hard to have some access where it doesn't hurt nesting sites and such, even negotiating privileges that normal tourists don't have, but one disrespectful individual can ruin years of negotiations instantly.

Keep it to the locals. Drawing BMC like some suggested into something like this would be downright stupid. Even the petition might do just more harm without knowing all the facts.

In reply to Frank R.:

I would agree with almost all of that. I'm glad David Mora has responded, I was hoping he would.

The link is not a petition, it is a survey. It is a chunk of data that the organisers can hand to officials (who may have no idea that climbing is such a big thing in Costa blanca, and how important it is internationally).

I would hope everyone would want to preserve flora and fauna, wherever they are. The question is whether officials take into account the opinions of climbers within their debating. If they don't have the voices of climbers in front of them when they decide, they might very reasonably decide that we are a minority who can be ignored.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

In my experience of managing nature 2000 sites elsewhere, economic reasons and some sport folk enjoy are irrelevant, the plants in this case will take priority. There won't be any sacrificial zones so people can keep climbing.

The best you can hope for is getting the Spanish guides association etc... on side and good local liaisons with local departments managing it. 

Each location will have specific rules of use, species counts etc.. depending how on the ball they are critical species will have been plotted with a GPS, in older days they buried a bit of metal so they could refind locations with metal detectors. 

Perhaps agreed climbing areas, signposted descents, no go areas etc.  Will be a good compromise, but it's all down to the character of those in the local department. 

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Ah, sorry then, my mistake.

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

Is there a general problem (elephant in the room) that users of European sports climbing honeypots are generally less respectful of the crag environments than (even) we are used to in the UK, often supported by the need to protect access and the very pro-active roll of the BMC in working with landowners and conservation bodies (eg RSPB)?  Does this disconnect make it harder to maintain crag access to many European venues, especially where climbers make up a very small proportion of tourist revenues, unlike say Kalymnos.  

In reply to aio:

Thank you very much indeed for your clarification. Several decades ago, there was a wonderful climbing cartoonist called Sheridan Anderson. One of his cartoons featured a quasi-Biblical prophet muttering, "Thou shalt not wreck the place." And, re the environment, I'm sure most of us would not wish to be going about wrecking the place.

Hopefully something reasonable can be worked out. Otherwise it seems terrible that people's livelihoods might be wiped out, especially when they've worked so hard with equipping and making the place as safe as possible (e.g. Miguel Bravo, at Guadalest). I guess we need to be guided by people such as David Mora who will understand things better than we ever can.

Mick

In reply to Misha:

It's clearly not a petition. It's simply a survey designed to gather information.  

In reply to kevin stephens:

Mostly they are just in nicer places.

In reply to TobyA:

I've filled it in and attached some proof of going over in 2018. 

I'm not sure why you have so many dislikes, the form is specific to that area. You can't fill it out of you haven't been! 

In reply to FreshSlate:

Yeah, weird. Maybe people are disliking that they can't give their support because, say - like me - they've only climbed in other parts of Spain. Or maybe they just don't like me.

In reply to nikoid:

Of course it’s a local thing mate, but people like to travel and look how the locals et al have provided you with such a wealth of opportunity. 
 

it’s not odd that they want receipts because it shows just how much they dip out if we all stop visiting. 

In reply to Jonathan Emett:

If anyone has a copy of the 2009 Desnivel guide to Ibiza, they will find a reference under Climbing and environment(p15) that refers to the effects of Natura 2000 Network i.e. Sites of community importance and Special protection areas. It states that as a result of these, you can be prosecuted for any acts causing deterioration of the habitats or their parts, such as the uprooting or cutting of plants.Likewise, any other acts or laws that are related to the preservation of nature must be complied with. It does warble on a lot but does state that at the time of going to press, there are no restrictions on climbing. This is still the case. The only prohibitions that have been enacted are the complete ban on access to the islands around Ibiza. I am not sure if this is a lot of use, but it is a fact that Spain in general has many laws, rules and regulations which, once passed, are seldom enforced.

In reply to Lesdavmor:

It's the same in the UK.  The Wildlife and Countryside Act (1981) makes it illegal “to uproot any wild plant without permission from the landowner or occupier” in Britain. That means any gardening of routes is probably illegal, but in practice it's probably unlikely to be enforced unless you damage somewhere of scientific interest.

In reply to Lesdavmor:

As I have said in another thread, I was stopped by a no access sign at Relleu near Sella in December 2019. I think this was something to do with paths regenerating rather than nesting birds etc but not sure. This could mean any path leading to a crag or under a crag so may not effect a crag if you could parachute in. In my case it prevented access to a nice ferrata.