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Climbing movement and personality (Franco is right)

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Following on from a thread on UKB in which Franco received the standard snubbing I thought he raised a good question, 'what can you tell about a person from the way they move?' which in the thread referred to a redpoint video and Franco determining the climber was a nice bloke based on his movement style. While I'm not sure the level of inter-subjectivity (gestalt interpersonal experience of each other)  translated from the climbers movement to the observers head hasn't got the potential to be drastically wrong e.g in Doylo's poor but funny analogy with Harold Shipman being a compassionate bloke, this would be deception at / on some level or another. I'd argue that you can glean an amazing amount about a person from their climbing style / movement, including state of mind, intentions, mode of being e.g. grasping / getting vs whatever the opposite is defined as. You could operationalise this concept by using categories of climber and then make inferences about their relationship with more fundamental values and states of being (e.g. kindness, masculinity, etc) based on a measurement tool. It could of course be tested for reliability and validity but that would be to 'over science' it and we all know where that leads - Nietzsche's 'death of God'. 

A few years ago I wrote this short and moderately offensive description of an alternative analysis tool which combines some aspects of Franco's question with a more metaphysical approach to personal development through climbing. The categories are fluid in all ways obvs meaning we can move between any one at any given moment - sort of schema or modes of being in climbing. 

Climbing Archetype Self Evaluation System

Since the dawn of ages when the Great Ape transmogrified and human consciousness was in its infancy the archetype existed to guide and mould. For the modern flow based climbing communiteer, archetypes such as the inbetweener, the rebel and the embittered perennial funny man serve as relics of a bygone age. Barely recognisable to the athletes of today, in their arena carved of foam, bolt, bloc and plastic. Sporting multicoloured flow charts allowing movement towards a ‘performance peak’. A new system needed to emerge, multifunctional, self directed, outward looking with everybody on the same page. Here ‘Nobby’ our director of training and qualified emergentics Miers Briggs ‘Finisher Maker’ has taken a break from working Tom’s Original to bring you a comprehensive guide to the contemporary community archetype from right out side the box. Straight from the anal’s of Jungian counterculture where do you place on this multi-tiered, forward thinking, intracranial and interchangeable analysis tool.

-Transcended

-Manic / disorientated

-Journeyman / pretender / ‘lone wolf’

-Dogger / mutual masturbator / conformist

-Grade grabber / progressive liberal consumer

-Lattice freak / flow peddler

-Ego-defender / liar / narcissist

-Sycophant ‘brown noser’ / deluded

37
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I'm guessing GPT-2 but feels less coherent.

 kwoods 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Like sticking UKC forums and Jordan Peterson through the AI meatgrinder.

 a crap climber 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Straight from the anal

Strange turn of phrase but that bit at least seems accurate...

1
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

The left brain hardcore may interpret it like that. 

1
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

It was Freud who had anals of counterculture, Jung was angels.

 wbo2 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:  I think this says a lot more about you and your desire to predefine and categorise according to parameters you personally like than anything it will ever say about defining personality from climbing movement.

Post edited at 12:54
2
 cb294 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I want to sample some of the drugs you had before writing this! An intersting mix of coherent bits and some out there stuff. You are not, by any chance, the postmodernism generator reborn?

CB

For those not remembering the Sokal stunt, here is a current version of the postmodernism generator:

https://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/

Post edited at 13:10
In reply to wbo2:

That's a shame, I thought I was onto something. Still the original point stands without the archetypal scale joke obvs 

In reply to cb294:

The Brown Acid obvs 

 cb294 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Have a button free like!

 Mike Stretford 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I think the use of sock puppet accounts tells you much more about an individual than their climbing movement ever will.

Post edited at 13:19
1
 JLS 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I move much better on jugs than I do on miserable crimps.  Is this strong enough evidence to diagnose schizophrenia or do I need to actually act upon the voices in my head telling me to perpetrate acts of violence?

1
 Offwidth 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Never mind all that, which route(s) did Schrödinger dog and what did he dog on grit?

1
In reply to JLS:

We'd need to see video footage, my gut diagnosis would be existential anxiety. Compartmentalised neurosis somewhere between lattice freak and conformist / mutual masturbator 

In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I've always found it best to try half a tab of any new batch first in case they're unusually strong.

1
 Phil West 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Surely this theory requires a person to always move in exactly the same way?

if you’d observed my climbing over the years you’d have witnessed: Someone terrified to look over an edge, only happy on a slab, taking hours to climb 20ft and giving up; Someone soloing an E4; Someone being rescued off a VS at Widdop; Someone climbing smoothly, ballet-like across a mountain HVS in approach shoes; Someone scared five feet off the mat at the bouldering wall; Someone soloing 60-odd routes at Stanage in a day, some on-sight up to HVS; Someone lacing a 30ft Severe with runners before lowering off in regret; Someone soloing 100ft+ at Shepherd’s.

Perhaps you’d build this into a profile too but you couldn’t conclude from a single observation. 
 

Phil

 abr1966 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

First post having joined UKC today....

Your post is absolute nonsense but I did find it a bit of a laugh.....I'm hoping you are having a laugh too as the notion of interpreting anything about someone's character or personality from how they are on a climb is comedy.

There are also far too many bull**** psychology pseudo science 'tests' in the world already!!

1
In reply to Phil West:

This reminds me of Heraclitus 

“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.”

which maybe gives a broader philosophical background to the activity of personality assessment from climbing 

1
In reply to abr1966:

If you could tell me why it’s nonsense I’ll try and provide a counter to your statement, if you have an argument which I can disagree with? 

1
 abr1966 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

The significance of things changes with time....

Titus Lucretius Carus

In reply to abr1966:

That’s Heraclitus again. I don’t disagree. It’s not a good argument as to why we can’t make inferences about personality based on movement especially when taken as part of a gestalt. It’s another lens to view through, another perspective on the same thing. 

3
 abr1966 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Do you think the notion of personality changes in a linear or divergent relationship with physical degeneration? (Of the body not the brain)...

In reply to abr1966:

That's an interesting and complex (for me) question and relates to the 'hard problem of consciousness' 

I'm leaning towards the philosophy of idealism, in which the body including the brain are a representation of consciousness rather than a separate material entity in which consciousness resides.

In this way the metaphor of Heraclitus would to me suggest time as a river in which the river is consciousness, so consciousness and time are one in the same thing.   

How this relates to your question about personality - that means that personality is not separable from the body or brain. If we're taking a snapshot of time-consciousness say 1 minute of climbing. I think in this view point you can make inferences about it's nature / personality based on how it moves. 

Take the example of James Pearsons climbing style currently and in the past. It suggests a kind of Nihilism in which he's struggling with the nature of meaning. That's why the corporatisation of his style has led to quite a depressing experience for the onlooker. We're supposed to care but we don't because its all so meaningless and everyone knows it. 

5
 Andy Hardy 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

If movement type is an indicator of personality type how come Jonnie Peacock never shot his girlfriend?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

You could DM him on instagram and ask?

 Dave Cundy 20 May 2022
In reply to Phil West:

> Surely this theory requires a person to always move in exactly the same way?

> if you’d observed my climbing over the years you’d have witnessed: Someone terrified to look over an edge, only happy on a slab, taking hours to climb 20ft and giving up; Someone soloing an E4; Someone being rescued off a VS at Widdop; Someone climbing smoothly, ballet-like across a mountain HVS in approach shoes; Someone scared five feet off the mat at the bouldering wall; Someone soloing 60-odd routes at Stanage in a day, some on-sight up to HVS; Someone lacing a 30ft Severe with runners before lowering off in regret; Someone soloing 100ft+ at Shepherd’s.

> Perhaps you’d build this into a profile too but you couldn’t conclude from a single observation. 

>  

> Phil

i diagnose a case of split personality disorder.  Clear as daylight.

At least you've been out cragging though.  On the other hand, Shrodinger's Dog has been spending all of their time at the bottom of the crag, watching others.

 Mick Ward 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Take the example of James Pearsons climbing style currently and in the past. It suggests a kind of Nihilism in which he's struggling with the nature of meaning.

How exactly does it suggest this?

> That's why the corporatisation of his style has led to quite a depressing experience for the onlooker.

What is your evidence for this?

In what way is it depressing?

> We're supposed to care but we don't...

How many people have you identified who feel this way? What percentage of your sample is this?

> ...because its all so meaningless...

Why?

> ...and everyone knows it. 

Well I certainly didn't know it. So clearly everyone didn't know it? 

But, to indulge you: How many people have you identified who 'know it'? What percentage of your sample is this?

You have singled out a particular person who, I understand, is a professional climber - i.e. he earns money through climbing to put food on the table. Good on him! Although I've never met him, I've always enjoyed his videos. The one where he showed how you could quickly tell the correct wire size was a revelation to me. So I'm grateful to him. You must surely be aware that your post is potentially defamatory and could injure his commercial prospects. I think your answers to the above questions are pretty important. 

A final two questions. Do you know him? Have you some kind of grudge against him?

Mick 

1
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Although I've never met him, I've always enjoyed his videos. The one where he showed how you could quickly tell the correct wire size was a revelation to me.

Could someone post a link to that please? Can’t find it. Sounds useful.

In reply to Mick Ward:

No grudge, I just used it as an example that was well known. I think he has an authentic innate talent so in that sense it's as complimentary as I can possibly be. I must watch that wire size video. In regards the struggle with the nature of meaning that's created by the corporatisation of innate talent which is nihilistic.  

6
 Mick Ward 20 May 2022
In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

Will have a look later (have to do the shopping!) I'm pretty sure it was a Wild Country one. Quite a few years ago. He had colour coded wires and related them to his finger sizes. So he'd reach up and touch a gear placement, say, in a finger crack. Which finger would go in? How far? He'd know which colour to go for. 

I've just got normal (i.e. non-coloured) wires and do it intuitively. Used to go thumbs up and thumbs down in finger cracks intuitively without ever thinking about it. But when the Wide Boyz pointed out thumbs up v thumbs down, which was stronger and why, it's far more effective/efficient. And that's what James Pearson was doing - making it more effective/efficient. 

Obviously the harder (steeper?) the route, the faster you want to be getting gear in. So anything which helps could make the difference between success/getting gripped/failing/taking a monster whipper - or even decking. 

We can all learn from these guys (and ladies). It's free. The videos are often entertaining. I think we get a great deal from them. Sure, it's showcasing product as well - but why not? We don't have to buy it, although it's generally pretty good stuff, well worth buying anyway. 

(Yikes, shopping! I'll be in the dog house yet again.)

Mick 

 Cusco 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

This is without a shadow of doubt the strangest UKC thread I have seen in 17 years in this parish. Totally bizarre.

 morpcat 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

This thread makes a compelling argument for a minimum time window between account creation and thread creation. 

In reply to Cusco:

Fantastic, I'll take that as a positive. 

In reply to morpcat:

What's the problem with the thread?

2
 profitofdoom 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> What's the problem with the thread?

In Asia (never mind where) I once saw an absolutely enormous garbage tip. A mountain of garbage, being built up by the local government. I saw it from a few miles away and it was a very depressing sight

I wonder why I just thought of that garbage tip

 Andy Farnell 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

What a load of bollocks. Almost Trumpian in the word salad stakes.

Andy F

 Morty 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

10/10 

1
 bouldery bits 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I wonder what would people think about my personality while I'm thrutching, swearing and shaking up a manky offwidth? 

In reply to Andy Farnell:

Why's that Andy? It would be good to try and show why it isn't bollocks, well, not all of it anyway. 

5
In reply to profitofdoom:

That's an example of the Jungian concept of synchronicity. You're describing a vision of the slag heap of materialism known as the state of climbing 

1
In reply to bouldery bits:

If you're aping the wideboyz then times are desperate, sea-kelp supplementation might help return you to the path of authenticity 

4
 Mick Ward 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> No grudge, I just used it as an example that was well known.

Well, I'm a dinosaur, hopelessly out of touch, but I've not heard of any such thing. 

>I think he has an authentic innate talent so in that sense it's as complimentary as I can possibly be.

He's obviously highly talented. But he's worked bloody hard at it and I'd give him a lot of credit for that too. 

> I must watch that wire size video.

It's really good. He also suggested carrying a krab with more small wires (OK, more product but I think it's a sound idea) on the basis that it's very little more weight and it might just get you out of a jam. 

> In regards the struggle with the nature of meaning that's created by the corporatisation of innate talent which is nihilistic.  

I'm sorry. I haven't a clue what this means. 

'What can be said at all can be said clearly.'  (Wittgenstein)

You still haven't answered my questions above. Could you please do so?

Have got two more questions. They couldn't be simpler. 

Have you had previous posting identities on here?

If so, what were they?

Mick 

2
In reply to Mick Ward:

I'm not really into the interrogation, if you can understand Wittgenstein then your'e certainly brighter than me, my best effort at interpreting that quote is that it may be from his early work in which he believed conflicts of intersubjectivity in language were at the root of problems with understanding. I think he changed his mind later in life. Assume whatever you think to be true is correct. 

6
 Moacs 20 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

3/10  Franco

In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> That's an example of the Jungian concept of synchronicity.

No it isn't.

1
 cragtyke 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Just got to ask mate, but what have you ever done on grit?

2
In reply to cragtyke:

Exactly. The ‘what have you ever done on grit’ cliche is reflective of an awareness of the spiritual vacuum in climbing. Gritstone lends itself to a particular type of movement which at its best suggests a kind of communion with the climber and nature of things. Observing this kind of innate natural ability suggests something about the climber and a deeper meaning. 

3
In reply to planetmarshall:

I talk of materialism and someone posts about a vision of a landfill site. Even if their intention was facetious from my perspective it’s synchronous. 

3
 Calum Elliot 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Mind and body certainly are connected as you say. But I'd argue embodiment is also a sociocultural phenomenon. We learn to climb from the cultural material available to us. Thus it makes little sense to say movement is strictly personalized. Rather it is (mostly) passed down and taught. 

Regardless, it's a fun post.

 Calum Elliot 21 May 2022
In reply to Calum Elliot:

Also, you mentioned intersubjectivity, sure that in itself would affect how we move? Being joyful spreads joy for example. 

 Arms Cliff 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Always thought your topics of discussion would find a better home here than UKB! 

In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I'd argue that you can glean an amazing amount about a person from their climbing style

Go on then, make your argument. So far you’ve just said this is true without any explanation of how or why you think it is the case. You keep asking people to debate the specifics of your argument, but we’ve no idea what those are. 

 ollie1 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Suppose you could always ask someone what they're like instead.

 Mick Ward 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I'm not really into the interrogation...

Which means you refuse to answer fundamental questions - such as your previous posting history.

You have attacked the reputation of a professional climber and given no evidence whatsoever for it. You could affect his chances of earning a living. 

To me, your behaviour seems to lack any sense of responsibility. 

Mick

6
 Andrew Wells 21 May 2022
In reply to Stuart Williams:

Yeah so far this all seems rather silly 

Also I'm not a very good climber (although I am a relatively strong climber) and I don't have a natural head for heights. I suppose if I was being watched I'd come off as a thug and a scumbag? 

 Andy Farnell 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

It's bollocks because none of it is based in any sort of reality. And it's a word salad. 

Andy F

3
 C Witter 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Take the example of James Pearsons climbing style currently and in the past. It suggests a kind of Nihilism in which he's struggling with the nature of meaning. That's why the corporatisation of his style has led to quite a depressing experience for the onlooker. We're supposed to care but we don't because its all so meaningless and everyone knows it. 

All that is revealed here is your resentment. And you know what your Nietzsche says about that.

Undergraduate philosphy student borefest thread. Read more, post less, stop getting 68s on your essays and telling yourself "it's ok cos I didn't really try anyway."

2
In reply to C Witter:

Wouldn’t 68 be a high 2:1? I think you’re being pretty generous there! 

In reply to Andrew Wells:

> I suppose if I was being watched I'd come off as a thug and a scumbag? 

Only if you also wear yellow shirts on feast days, otherwise you are a wumblechomper.

I invite you to prove me wrong.

 scoth 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

The most interesting thread for ages on here, for many reasons.

I think there is something in the general premise of inferring something about a climber in the way they move. I can only speak for myself, but depending on what's going on for me (psychologically, socially) at anyone time, I know this does have an effect on the way I climb, thus move. But I'm sure many climbers would also recognise that.

I guess the contestation comes when attempting to theorise this with a general typography you've proposed (and the example you've given). In my experience some people don't like to be categorised, I am not the way I move. But to be fair you do say these are fluid, so I'm not sure why some people appear to have been so affronted by it all. 

1
 wbo2 21 May 2022
In reply to scoth: Honestly? - I think this is something between parody and trolling.

What you're describing is internal changes in your own perception based on how you're feeling, rather than the OP's distinction of ohters personalities based on an assessment on how they move, as much reliant on the observers position, as the observed.

Also while you may think that there is a perceptible difference based on how you feel, in my experience what is observed stays very constant, with only slight changes in , f. ex.  hesitancy at dynamic moves

1
 wbo2 21 May 2022
In reply to Arms Cliff:

> Always thought your topics of discussion would find a better home here than UKB! 

Because that's a forum for climbing?

 C Witter 21 May 2022
In reply to Stuart Williams:

To be honest, just to successfully simulate an interest in a subject is enough for a high 2:1 these days: the lecturer only has 10 minutes to mark the paper and intellectual clarity, critical thought and insight are, anyway, far beyond the grasp of most students, as the OP helpfully demonstrates. Academic careers are built on second-rate and unoriginal research in the neoliberal university, so why expect more of young people?

 mrjonathanr 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Take the example of James Pearsons climbing style currently and in the past. It suggests a kind of Nihilism in which he's struggling with the nature of meaning. 

 

Even Pseud’s Corner never reached this level of nonsense.

1
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I talk of materialism and someone posts about a vision of a landfill site. Even if their intention was facetious from my perspective it’s synchronous. 

It's not synchronicity if it happens in response to something you've posted, is it? It doesn't matter what your perspective on it is.

If you're going to make references to psychological concepts in order to sound pretentious, at least get them right.

 wercat 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Cat by nature, bumbly when climbing

 Timmd 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> That's a shame, I thought I was onto something. Still the original point stands without the archetypal scale joke obvs 

I wouldn't know how to go about defining any categories, but I'm thinking that a person's vibe/'human energy'/love or the absence of emanating from them also plays a part, as well as their body language or movements while climbing, when figuring what kind of person they seem to be.

In a similar way to how if you stare/look hard at somebody for long enough they tend to look up from what they're doing, I think there's things we pick up on without being able to intellectualise them, which are summed up as 'gut feeling' or similar, some sort of animal senses we use.

Edit: I sometimes wonder whether quantum entanglement plays a part when we talk about somebody having a nice vibe, in that if particles can be in different parts of the universe but somehow connected, maybe that applies to people as well, so that if somebody has 'love and warmth' about them as a personality, that translates into how they feel, which we pick up on within ourselves due to entanglement, and we decide they have a nice vibe. If quantum entanglement turns out to be true, it might be rather profound on a human level.

nb: It's all theoretic of course, I'm not a crystal healer. 

Post edited at 12:51
2
 Allovesclimbin 21 May 2022
In reply to C Witter:

Spot on re bore fest thread. Can’t people just go cragging ? Love it , me ! 

Al

Post edited at 12:53
In reply to Timmd:

> I wouldn't know how to go about defining any categories...

You could just make them up like the OP.

> Edit: I sometimes wonder whether quantum entanglement plays a part when we talk about somebody having a nice vibe, in that if particles can be in different parts of the universe but somehow connected, maybe that applies to people as well...

It doesn't, no.

 Timmd 21 May 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

> It doesn't, no.

I'm not invested in the theory, but do we not have particles within us, that is, how/why would it not apply?

Every day is a school day.

Post edited at 12:59
1
 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to Timmd:

> Edit: I sometimes wonder whether quantum entanglement plays a part when we talk about somebody having a nice vibe...

> ... It's all theoretic of course, I'm not a crystal healer. 

You're obviously not a physicist either.

In reply to Timmd:

> I'm not invested in the theory, but do we not have particles within us, that is, how/why would it not apply?

Placing particles into an entangled state is a difficult process, usually involving the application of temperatures near to absolute zero. I probably wouldn't propose it as a first date activity.

 Timmd 21 May 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

Thank you for a more enlightening reply, that would be why it happens 'out there in the cosmos'. Interesting to know.

1
 Michael Gordon 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

What a load of absolute nonsense. This theory sounds about as likely to be true as environmental determinism.  

 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to Timmd:

Yeh, sorry about that. Knee jerk reaction. But QE is often conflated in pop culture with some wierd 'action at a distance'. It most definitely isn't that. It just describes the data that comes as a result of a specific experiment when you measure two (or more) objects which may be far apart now (but were not in the past). The important point is that it doesn't say anything about how the QE mechanism works, it only says what result you'll get if you do a particular experiment. Emphasis on 'experiment' and 'data' - two things totally absent in the OP's musings.

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Arms Cliff:

It's funny how such posts, in forums for an activity dominated by progressives, touch so many nerves.

Post edited at 14:41
 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Placing particles into an entangled state is a difficult process, usually involving the application of temperatures near to absolute zero. I probably wouldn't propose it as a first date activity.

Not quite true: creating entangled particles is easy. The challenge is keeping them entangled for long enough to do something meaningful with them. That's where low temperature sometimes comes in useful but it's not completely necessary. You're basically trying to stop anything (except your experiment) interacting with them. Many successful entanglement experiments are done at room temperature.

 Jim Nevill 21 May 2022
In reply to ollie1:

Yep. Reminds me of a Harry Hill joke:

'You can tell a lot about somebody by their personality'

 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> It's funny how such posts, in forums for an activity dominated by progressives, touch so many nerves.

I'm not quite sure what a 'progressive' is (a walker?), but climbing is surely an activity which rewards a focus on hard reality rather than wild data-less speculation, so I'm not surprised at the derision in this thread.

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Marek:

Whoosh.

6
 Timmd 21 May 2022
In reply to Marek:

Climbing has always been 'counter culture and different' in the UK, and in communist Poland too (going on the book Freedom Climbers, a fascinating book, but the number of deaths in the mountains described I found quite harrowing), it sometimes seems that anything vaguely abstract or too 'out there' gets short shrift on climbing forums (it is my perception).

Post edited at 15:37
In reply to Offwidth:

> It's funny how such posts, in forums for an activity dominated by progressives, touch so many nerves.

Perhaps because many forum users also have a reasonably high standard of education and have a low tolerance for pseudoscientific bullshit.

1
 Arms Cliff 21 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

It was mainly a volume issue on UKB, when one poster is accounting for 30% of all the posts or whatever it’s a bit overwhelming! Way more watered down here 

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Arms Cliff:

It was mostly easily enough avoided (if that's what you preferred)  and sort of illustrated those forums were getting a bit becalmed.

 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to Timmd:

> Climbing has always been 'counter culture and different' in the UK, and in communist Poland too (going on the book Freedom Climbers, a fascinating book, but the number of deaths in the mountains described I found quite harrowing), it sometimes seems that anything vaguely abstract or too 'out there' gets short shrift on here.

I have no problem with 'abstract' and 'out there' - it's a fundamental part of the scientific process - but it has to be reasoned and supported by hard data. Einstein and Maxwell (and many others) revelled in the abstract and the 'out there', but they did so based experiment derived facts and numbers rather than just "I believe...".

Pauli - I think it was - coined the phrase "Not even wrong" to describe stuff like the OP's original posting.

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Marek:

Plenty of physicists are different when writing jokes or experimenting with prose.

 Arms Cliff 21 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

I didn’t feel that was the case, nor did a lot of those stranded on that becalmed vessel, including the owner!

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Arms Cliff:

That might be fair enough on many sites, but seemed odd to me on that site, which seemed rather proud of itself as an escape from the moderation and bans over here. 

In reply to Offwidth:

> Plenty of physicists are different when writing jokes or experimenting with prose.

"Experimenting with prose" is a pretty generous interpretation of writing total gibberish.

2
 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to planetmarshall:

>many forum users also have a reasonably high standard of education and have a low tolerance for pseudoscientific bullshit.

That's me for sure.... I'll argue forever, and for dangerous idiocy in science even condemn  ..... it's just best not to mistake art for science as we look dumb if we apply scientific arguments to such work. Words with similar 'tones' to gibberish have been used across history and some would say that of all of modern art.

Post edited at 16:16
 Marek 21 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> Plenty of physicists are different when writing jokes or experimenting with prose.

The trick is to know when you are a scientist, when you are a comic and when you are a poet. And not to get them confused. A lesson for the OP?

In reply to Marek:

> The trick is to know when you are a scientist, when you are a comic and when you are a poet. And not to get them confused. A lesson for the OP?

This important distinction was explored in the Viz cartoon “Tommy and his Magic Arse”:

”It’s not magic all the time, only when I talk in rhyme.”

 Offwidth 21 May 2022
In reply to Marek:

It's been a lesson for a few physicists in some disciplinary cases I've dealt with.

In reply to Andy Farnell:

I’ll DM you next time I need a reality check 

2
In reply to Marek:

Progressive is a post modern euphemism for fascist 

9
In reply to Offwidth:

liberal cannibalism and the eating of ones own 

3
In reply to planetmarshall:

It’s a spiritual / metaphysical concept 

4
 mrjonathanr 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

If you say so, Dan.

 Andy Farnell 21 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Better do it soon because reality isn't something you appear to be part of.

Andy F

4
 wbo2 21 May 2022
In reply to Timmd:  There is a difference between abstract and bollox. There hasn't been too much mental exertion or development of interesting concepts here.

In reply to Thugitty Jugitty:

I was an avid reader of viz for many years, the more random strips were often real gems. Billy bumble beard being a classic. He can’t get a date due to the fact he has a nasty beard of bee’s and when he eventually strikes it lucky he ends up in bed with Marjory wasp fanny. 

In reply to Timmd:

Parapsychology is a fascinating area, I’ve spent a fair bit of time talking to people about NDE’s and other odd events. These sort of questions are linked to a deeper meaning of things which is missing in a materialistic philosophy. I’d say gut instinct is an important part of medicine and diagnosis for example and can also be used to make inferences about character. Tolkien says it well with his observation ‘seems foul but feels fair’ rather than ‘seems fair yet feels foul’ 

Post edited at 22:44
4
 GDes 22 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> It's funny how such posts, in forums for an activity dominated by progressives, touch so many nerves.

My recent involvement in a discussion on here where I suggested that clubbing someone violently with a metal object was not a good solution to a problem tells me that perhaps climbing isn't that dominated by progressives. 

In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I'm finding this an interesting thread as I'm currently "working" on some whimsical verses fantasising about how different philosophers might climb. Here's some classical Greek:

Zeno at Ramshaw

forever stretching

to a hold forever out

of anyone's reach - 

turning over time

stuck as an abandoned friend

the colour of rock - 

paradoxical

philosopher in situ

ticking like a bomb

to slow explosion:

a fine grey dust of instants

falls like moorland rain

Post edited at 08:30
2
 Offwidth 22 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

It's more about forcing conformity. Too often a socially conservative trait by those claiming to wear socially progressive clothes.

1
 Offwidth 22 May 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Great fun. More please.

A thread as oblique strategy.

Post edited at 09:52
 peppermill 22 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Whatever.

I'm sure we've all met utterly wonderful climbers of any style that fall into the category of tool/rocket/selfish arse.

In reply to Offwidth:

I’m not sure the paradox of opposites has quite registered, the humourless wokeism and depressing nihilistic messaging is nauseating. 
 

I liked the poem! I wrote a bit of doggerel a while back. 

Notorious BLG

One move enigma 

Little black book 

Misogynistic rage

Mind unhook

Hurley dot mov.

Golden light 

Armchair empire 

Youth in flight

WiseOldMisogynist

StopEmChi

BigLongGrandad

notorious BLG


Midnight Oil

Midnight oil

Concrete evidence

Hostile design

Urban defence

Open university 

Feeling the pinch

Psychic mile 

Metaphysical inch

Concrete society

Rapido

Ambient intention

Four-direction throw 

Useless Eater

Brian glover 

Abusive mother

Attachment trauma

Done it for ya 

Bill Gates

Crag passport 

Sandy pocket

Mission abort 

Woke community

They understand

Ancap training

Stay on brand 

Hate projection

Death anxiety

Cancel culture 

Ukb 


Conspiracy theory 

Useless eater

Beware the Jabcock

Headpoint cheater 

2
In reply to Offwidth:

> Great fun. More please.

Well you did ask. To schrodinger's _dog, I did particularly enjoy: Brian glover/Abusive mother/Attachment trauma...  Luckily - or sadly, depending - I've only managed two poems on this theme so far. I'm currently wrestling with Derrida and the radical act of self-forgiveness at The Roaches. It's not going well. Anyway, here's one about one of my go-to guys for life hacks...

Jean-Paul Sartre at Stanage

existential grit:

nothingness in every hold

gnawing like a worm - 

words and little else

keep these grains of sand in place

long enough to grasp -

he fights his way up:

punching through the infinite,

wrestling the sublime - 

gauloise jammed in fist

scorning illusory gear

solo and alone

he sculpts as he climbs:

gritstone shivers around him

unsure of its shape

but stays where he points

authentically dog-like

adoringly-eyed - 

a faithful waiter,

reality comes running

to each finger click

supplying a crimp

in the nick of closing time

honoured to attend,

while bracken gathers

and mill-wheels roll up to watch

and lovers applaud

a handstand to end -

squats on top and gazes out

enjoying the wind

and autumn's bleak light,

then blags a lift to the pub

and parties till dawn

Post edited at 13:29
1
 Offwidth 22 May 2022
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Wow! Keep them coming (it puts my limerick habit ....best I can normally do....to shame)

.

The famous philosopher Russel

Just loved intellectual tussle

A great man of peace

He ran foul of police

But then added logic some muscle.

.

The science empiricist Popper

To Inductivists took a big chopper

Yet too many aloof

Still claimed to see truth

When that claim is just really a whopper

Post edited at 15:27
2
In reply to Offwidth:

Seriously off topic but.... Someone sent me this one, apparently found scrawled on a gents bog wall in Blaenau Ffestiniog

Oh Samurai Groove

How ashamed am I

Forsook that move

In my own Fiends eye

Chop balls off self?

Maybe I'll try....

1
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Something a bit more angsty 

The climbing gym

That’s £8.50 please

I’ll have a flat white, you know, in a glass

It’s hot in the gym today

Sunny outside

There’s a guy with his top off

Reasonable abs but carrying some adipose tissue on his lower back

The sweat glistens on his hairless chest

As he muscle f*cks the wall

That guy’s in Gen-Pop 

I’m in solitary confinement 

3
In reply to scoth:

Yes exactly, changes in your mental state are represented in your movement as one part of a bigger picture. Based on this I think we can make some inferences about present fluid state of mind and also more consistent temperament or nature. Personality is a nebulous concept and always relational, wbo's point is inconsistent with this idea. I wrote this paragraph a while ago when thinking about how climbing shows us ourselves and by extension others. 

The Mirror

Climbing is often described as being good for your mental health. One can experience joy in success, anxiety, despair and self loathing in failure. In danger a broad range of emotions can be experienced and there is a need for self regulation to avoid loss of control. In these moments a mirror is held up to show us our way of being, courage is required to explore ones potentials and experience ourselves as separate to the other.

1
In reply to Offwidth:

I was sent this article from 2014 today, rather ahead of it's time in laying out the current degeneracy and culture of censorship in the name of good by woke prog Guardianista's.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2014/01/13/are-todays-progressives-actually-totalitarians/?sh=2d170a931684

8
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

What tripe. The argument that piece is making is that anyone who questions anything in the US constitution, a document written in 1787, is automatically a totalitarian.

They aren’t offering any insight into so called ‘woke censorship’. It is a propaganda piece framing any discussion about things like gun control or abortion as “un-American” and anti-democratic. It is an example, not a description, of how debate is shut down.

Post edited at 21:18
In reply to Stuart Williams:

Discussing those things is verboten in a progressive world, well verboten in the sense that one faces significant personalised backlash. Climbing went this way a few years ago, JD made an insightful remark about this, he said it's f*cking sinister climbing these days, you don't meet anybody, in the past you might not have liked someone or what they had to say but at least you 'met' them. Self censorship and on message branding in the sport is just an extension of the nonsense  

Post edited at 21:29
13
 wintertree 23 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> woke

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I refer you back to my previous comment. Implying that anyone who is e.g. pro-choice is a Nazi is just a cheap trick to shut down debate. It’s almost as if it’s the exact behaviour you are accusing others of. 

In reply to Stuart Williams:

I don’t disagree that both extremes arrive at the same result. Western culture seems quite an odd and extreme place to be right now. 

In reply to wintertree:

The proof of the pudding is in the crust and the games not over until the fat lady sings. 

1
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

“You cannot speak of ocean to a well-frog, the creature of a narrower sphere. You cannot speak of ice to a summer insect, the creature of a season.”

 wintertree 23 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

Siri, who let the dogs out?

1
In reply to wintertree:

Back on topic, what do you think about making inferences about personality from climbing movement Wintertree? 

1
 wintertree 23 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Back on topic, what do you think about making inferences about personality from climbing movement Wintertree? 

Expanding the topic, what about making inferences about motivation from posting style Alexa?

In reply to wintertree:

You’ve lost me.... 🤷🏻‍♂️

8
 Andy Hardy 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I don’t disagree that both extremes arrive at the same result. Western culture seems quite an odd and extreme place to be right now. 

Nobody with an opinion on any of the hot topics from the (IMO entirely manufactured) culture wars would think that both positions are extreme. That's what makes it so effective at generating anger, especially online.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Manufactured is the right word for it! 

 Offwidth 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

The usual depressing empty rhetoric from a right wing journalist talking about america. Just look how hard won freedoms (all won while the constitution existed)  are teetering over there from these bogus constitution flag wavers, especially abortion rights and minority voting rights; before we look how many like him acted as apologists for the attack on Congress. US citizens never even got proper modern health rights, like most of the rest of the western world. I know which side Orwell would be most worried about....a man who fought fascism in Spain. Freedom is slavery is apt in their terms:  be a good citizen and let the rich make more money unhindered.

1
In reply to Offwidth:

Thinking about the UK I always considered myself left wing, I voted for Corbyn, read the Guardian, I'm anti war, pro-choice and pro bodily autonomy, I believe healthcare should be free and dismantled from corporate interest as much as humanly possible. Something has happened over the last 10 years, Assange, Syria and other proxy wars, Corbyn's smearing, Cancel Culture, and the humour vacuum. I noticed this reflected in climbing culture and wrote a strange post entitled the Totalitarian state of climbing or something like that. The last two years has been a real eye opener with censorship, division and abuses being dished out in the name of the greater good. Canada seems a perfect example of the descent into extremism and how Totalitarianism and Liberty are two sides of the same coin. I've noticed some improvements with Elon Musk threatening to take over twitter. I wonder if one of the problems has been the deification of science and the technocratic / materialistic nature of our culture? I like the idea of Philosophy, panpsychism, gnosticism, caring for nature and fundamental values. I worry that those running the show are psychopathic and degenerate individuals and that having these traits or being open to ones soul being corrupted is the key to achieving power. I often bring it back to climbing as that is what I know, I heard a quote earlier today, can't remember where, talking about understanding the nature of plants, it went something like 'to really get to know a fern you must get close to it and unlearn all your botany'. I think this relates well to the rock climbing, in the same vein* as the one straw revolution and the philosophy of 'do nothing farming'. Bernardo Kastrup talks of the world that has been mapped and then discarded from perception, at some point we began to extract the terrain from the map. Climbing topo's work a bit like this. 

Post edited at 11:15
7
 Offwidth 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I'd suggest you have just been asleep, are searching randomly for explanations and somehow falling for some of the most ludicrous. The overstretch of modern capitalism is the big problem and many capitalists write well on how this will likely slay the golden goose. Denying climate change, ecological destruction and the suffering of billions isn't leaving any stable future within the models.

If you want to worry about Canada think a hundred times more about oil than pronouns, but the bigger national players are much more damaging. What is going on in the US with the extreme religious right pretty close to achieving political dominance seems terrifying to me for the future of the world, especially since the leaders of China and Russia are noticeably tightening their grip on absolute power. The extremist Republican press sympathisers are pressing the constitution to breaking point by putting a right to own automatic weapons and say and do what the hell they like (and to reduce government), above the rights of others, some of whom are denied the rights to have an abortion,  to vote, to not get shot by a gun toting loon, to access a hospital for a chromic condition (where flawed government is their best hope). Why on earth would you add succour to such evil propagandists?

I can't see any deification of science. It's always been political at government level and suffered a bit from a herd mentality (partly as grants follow trends and you need grants to work). Again the scary thing is almost the opposite: leaders in the US, UK, Russia, China and Brazil said stuff about science that is provably wrong and the checks and balances in those nations (guffaw!) did way too little to correct that. Citizens have a right to expect better.

Post edited at 11:52
1
 Mike Stretford 24 May 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

> I'd suggest you have just been asleep, are searching randomly for explanations and somehow falling for some of the most ludicrous.

I see what you are getting at but I think the individual who doesn't want to put their identity to their 'opinions', has been led down a rabbit hole by people/organisations who quickly learnt how to exploit social media algorithms for their own ends. Nothing random about it, pretty targeted.

 Offwidth 24 May 2022
In reply to Mike Stretford:

Most educated people should be able to avoid such rabbit holes. Sometimes a few concerns are valid, in particular corporate science has had a lot to answer for in terms of ethical failures, and sometimes in law.

Its just sad that someone concerned about environmental damage should be linking propaganda from those who's actions support those nations and companies' ability to continue to generate such carnage. Most scientists will share his concerns but base that on science.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

As I stated, these are some of my opinions / beliefs - I'm anti war, pro-choice and pro bodily autonomy, I believe healthcare should be free and dismantled from corporate interest as much as humanly possible

I'd add to that a deep concern for nature and the planet. 

Where is the rabbit hole? Who's targeted me and what's their end game? 

I've planted over 100metres of native 'wild life' hedging built ponds and rainwater harvesting systems, drive an electric vehicle and grow my own food as much as possible. Offwidth suggesting I'm not aware of those things or have been asleep seems based on what? The fact that I disagree with the actions of the arms trade or the pharmaceutical industry? 

Some of my current sources of inspiration are Chris Hedges, Iain McGilchrist, Bernardo Kastrup and the essentia foundation, and from the past RD Laing, Jung and prior to that the philosophy of Heidegger, Nietzsche and Kierkagaard as well as the work of the likes of Harry Stack Sullivan (interpersonal psychiatry) and and Rollo May. I've read a large range of books looking at the world from alternative perspectives from Peter Duesberg's 'Inventing the Aids Virus' to Chris Hedges 'I don't believe in Atheists'. Who's guided me towards these thinkers, philosophers, science etc? Are they all down the Rabbit Hole too?  

4
 jkarran 24 May 2022
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> Nothing random about it, pretty targeted.

And scarilly effective.

jk

1
In reply to jkarran:

Scarily effective at what, encouraging an interest in care of nature for example? 

4
 wintertree 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Scarily effective at what, encouraging an interest in care of nature for example? 

e.g.

Developing concerns that the "woke" are coming to take their liberty and having an uncanny ability to find the last scientific explanation for something and stick to it against an onslaught of weapons-grade evidence that could sink a battleship, whilst maintaining an untouchable believe that they are the only person thinking for themselves.

1
In reply to wintertree:

If you're on about covid and vaccines then I'm not interested 

Apophasis - I learnt that word today!

Post edited at 14:08
4
 jkarran 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> Something has happened over the last 10 years, Assange, Syria and other proxy wars, Corbyn's smearing, Cancel Culture, and the humour vacuum. I noticed this reflected in climbing culture and wrote a strange post entitled the Totalitarian state of climbing or something like that. The last two years has been a real eye opener with censorship, division and abuses being dished out in the name of the greater good. Canada seems a perfect example of the descent into extremism and how Totalitarianism and Liberty are two sides of the same coin. I've noticed some improvements with Elon Musk threatening to take over twitter.

In apparently changing a number of your views in a rather predictable direction, consistent with trends commonly observable in others. I'm also presuming you didn't always 'communicate' in this florid way but there I may be wrong.

I'm apparently not bright enough or well enough versed to really follow the rest of the thread, that or it's word soup, hard to say for sure from my position. Given the apparent premise: that a person's physical motion provides a clear window to their soul, apologies if I paraphrase too glibly, I have my suspicions that it might be mostly crap.

jk

1
 wintertree 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> If you're on about covid and vaccines then I'm not interested 

I was tilting in to your classification of an AIDS denying idiot as "thinkers, philosophers, science etc".  They're none of those.  They're a self-aggrandising idiot who published a book stacked full of selective evidence in a classic example of anti-scienctific nonsenseology that puts the ego of the author and the collective delusions of their followers ahead of basic public health.

I could see how the kind of person drawn in by these nutters could be swayed in to delusion over Covid etc., but that's not what I was putting on the table.  

1
In reply to jkarran:

I hadn't really thought about it until people started rabidly buying bog roll. The end point of any views is manifest in their choices, here I quite like Jung's statement 

'free will is doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing' 

If my views on proxy wars align with Chris Hedges as opposed to the UKC collective then I'm ok with that even if it is due to brainwashing by an evil algorithm. 

https://scheerpost.com/category/chris-hedges/

2
In reply to wintertree:

I thought it was an interesting read which raised some important questions, did you read it?

PS as far as I'm aware Duesberg has pretty much disappeared into the ether since that book, not sure about him having followers etc....

Post edited at 14:19
2
 jkarran 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I hadn't really thought about it until people started rabidly buying bog roll. The end point of any views is manifest in their choices

Does this ^ contain typos?

> ...here I quite like Jung's statement 'free will is doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing'

Not sure I see the connection to bogroll but I am not wired for this. 

> If my views on proxy wars align with Chris Hedges as opposed to the UKC collective then I'm ok with that even if it is due to brainwashing by an evil algorithm. https://scheerpost.com/category/chris-hedges/

Yeah, if you want people to engage in this stuff rather than posting weird links you're going to have to a) tone down the crackpot style a bit and b) do some of the work to clearly explain your position however or by whomsoever it has been inspired/informed.

So what specifically are you views on proxy wars? Have they changed recently?

jk

1
 Offwidth 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

>Offwidth suggesting I'm not aware of those things or have been asleep seems based on what? The fact that I disagree with the actions of the arms trade or the pharmaceutical industry? 

I'm saying you seemed to be asleep as you linked a dishonest commentator (Benko) who is part of the Republican support structure for those very same dodgy companies. If you were fully awake how could you miss that?

I happen to think you are well intentioned (if you are who I think you are) but you do seem to have a penchant for linking the words of charlatans (but to be perfectly clear Hedges seems to be exact opposite.... despite the odd  choice of working on the Russian propaganda vehicle RT).

Post edited at 14:37
 wintertree 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> I thought it was an interesting read which raised some important questions, did you read it?

No.  Scientists tend to read the scientific literature and not popular science books that have been robustly rebutted by many scientists.  I'm a scientist.  

I have read what many credible scientists have to say on it.  They tell me all I need to know.  A key part of how science works is that we can't all ready everything from scratch, and so webs of trust are built.  

> PS as far as I'm aware Duesberg has pretty much disappeared into the ether since that book, not sure about him having followers etc....

You seem misinformed.  Since then he played a prominent role in AIDS denialism in South Africa, a process estimated to have killed around 330,000 people.  It seems clear the then SA leader was drawn in to his idiocy.   He has been a lot more absent of late, thankfully.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/26/aids-south-africa

Post edited at 14:34
In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah sorry, sometimes I'll link something oppositional to see what happens. Probably shouldn't. Do you have a list of charlatans in the fields of science, philosophy, psychology and the broader humanities? This might reduce chances of misunderstanding. For example is Chris Hedges Ok and Vanessa Beeley a peddler of untruth? Is the Grayzone anti american putinist propaganda and Un-Herd providing a source of healthy skepticism? 

In reply to wintertree:

OK thanks. 

In reply to Offwidth:

Are you 'fully awake'? 

As someone said earlier in the thread - everyday is a school day 

Re Hedges and RT, according to him he worked for RT after being censored from previous outlets / employers such as the New York Times, due to his anti-war position etc affecting their financial / political position. Pro Imperialism / proxy wars / etc..... (according to him, not me.... him ) 

Post edited at 14:43
 Offwidth 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

I try to call out what I know is obviously wrong (irrespective of political positions...the left and centre all have their mistakes) and tend not to express opinions on the majority of stuff that isn't obviously wrong, unless its a special interest of mine (although I do sometimes single out special praise for conservatives who do something significant in calling out genuine terrible behaviour in 'fellow travellers', like Oborne's Boris Lies website).

I'm human and miss stuff and make mistakes (and when that's pointed out, will apologise). I'm blown away with the best things humans have done in science, arts and society, and worry about the bad.

On Hedges and RT yes I'm aware of his reasons but still question the wisdom ... it's hardly like it's hard to self publish these days. 

Post edited at 14:53
In reply to Offwidth:

Thank god for being human eh  

In reply to jkarran:

The frenzied bog-roll purchasing of 2020 amongst many other things was (to my mind) the antithesis of Jung's version of free will in this quote. 

I've always had a slightly mad stream of consciousness way of talking, it comes across badly online and much better over a pint and with a grin on my face. 

My views on proxy wars align with Chris Hedges, I think he's inspirational, plus he can't abide Sam Harris which is the acid test for me. Harris being an android controlled by Klaus Schwab and Bono on weekends especially since Uncle Joe took a turn for the worse (Joke). 

1
 jkarran 24 May 2022
In reply to schrodingers_dog:

> The frenzied bog-roll purchasing of 2020 amongst many other things was (to my mind) the antithesis of Jung's version of free will in this quote. 

Right. I'm not sure I'm any less confused but the effort to explain is appreciated.

I suppose my question beyond 'so what?' is if you feel pandemic panic buying was not a product of our free will, whose will do you think it was and what was the point, who benefits?

> I've always had a slightly mad stream of consciousness way of talking, it comes across badly online and much better over a pint and with a grin on my face.

I'm sure

> My views on proxy wars align with Chris Hedges, I think he's inspirational, plus he can't abide Sam Harris which is the acid test for me. Harris being an android controlled by Klaus Schwab and Bono on weekends especially since Uncle Joe took a turn for the worse (Joke). 

But I'm asking you about your views, not theirs. I have zero interest in delving into what Sam Harris or Chris Hedges or Bono for that matter says or thinks or doesn't think. Surely you can articulate your position at least in broad strokes without references, you introduced the topic afterall.

jk

Post edited at 16:24
In reply to jkarran:

I feel like I could get into hot water commenting further on bog rolls. I find free will and the nature of consciousness fascinating, where fear is involved whether it’s terrorism, the threat of nuclear war or a deadly pathogen opportunities to exert control over ‘will’ present themselves, rightly or wrongly that’s the way it was / is. The list of who stands to benefit from that is long and comprised of the political and economic elite. 

With regards wars and proxy wars specifically I’m against the arming of groups in other countries such as Al Qaeda in Syria for political power and control of resources. The dirty tricks used in holding countries to ransom economically and through violence are deeply wrong. I understand that it’s likely much more complex than my understanding permits and certainly not as black and white as presented to us. As someone of a very ordinary background with little education said to me today ‘who does anyone think they are that they have a right to take a life’ and ‘when they start talking about nuclear war it’s too far they’re taking the piss’. 

Post edited at 17:37

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