/ Coronavirus - ignoring the advice

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acking 22 Mar 2020

Dear UKC,

I went out to Chudleigh this evening on my own. Strictly, this was against the current government recommendations which asks us to stay at home. Since I would be on my own the whole time, I felt just about justified doing it. I was in line with BMC suggestions. I suspected there might be other lone boulderers there  like me - from whom I'd have to distance myself - but thought I would work that out if it came to it. However, to my dismay when I got to Chudleigh, there were many teams out. There was a group of about six on the ledge by Gully Wall - where I was hoping to climb. Worse, I had to ask climbers to keep their distance at Pixies Hole as I was socially isolating.  I don't know whether I have the virus or not. And I am assuming they didn't either. Yet, in each case, they seemed surprised that I even mentioned it. I presume that these scenes were repeated across the country; ie climbers flagrantly ignoring NHS requests.

We've been asked to do three simple things to flatten this lethal Covid-19 curve: stay at home where possible, self-isolate and maintain social distance when out. It's not hard. I have friends and family members who work in the NHS and who are exposing themselves to serious risk. Out of respect to them, we should follow their requests

When crags are banned, as they already are in Italy, Spain and France, we will only have ourselves to blame.

Anthony King

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Kean 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Same thing here in Italy...until the government actually passed the the law, people were not capable of comprehending the seriousness of it all... As soon was the law was passed, not only did people start taking it seriously, but it was like a switch had been flipped and people here now feel they have carte blanche to hurl insults at transgressors...I'm guessing things will be the same in the UK. Today I went out with my dog (still allowed) and it was like a scene from a film...no cars...no people...total silence...apocalyptic.

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misterb 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

I went up to Dartmoor today and it was heaving  like a bank holiday

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acking 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Kean:

I think you are right - thanks for the info about Italy. Useful

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misterb 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Climbers, walkers, Ice cream lickers they were all out

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misterb 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Including the elderly as i have said on previous threads

All strolling around together with little or no distance being upheld at all

Met a group of boulderers at the same venue and lo and behold we keep 2metres away from each other

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DancingOnRock 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Why didn’t you turn around and go home?

Instead of being part of the solution, you made yourself part of the problem. 

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acking 22 Mar 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Precisely what I did 

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Tom V 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Is this the thread where a bunch of people talk about how they didn't think the guidelines applied to them and are appalled to find that  a bunch of other people act in exactly the same way?

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Eric9Points 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Too many people live in England.

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DancingOnRock 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Ah I thought you’d gone up to the crags and were near the climbers. 
 

“Worse, I had to ask climbers to keep their distance at Pixies Hole as I was socially isolating.”

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WaterMonkey 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

When you say ‘socially isolating’ and that you don’t know if you have the virus or not, do you mean self isolating because you have symptoms?

if that is the case you shouldn’t be leaving your house.

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Cusco 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Evening Anthony.

So. You wanted to go out on a beautiful day but felt guilty because it felt like a breach of the Government's contradictory guidelines (essential travel only but people are free to go out and exercise as long as they stay 2m apart)? But you felt it was just about justifiable in your case?

And you wanted to go bouldering, on your own, at the most polished crag south of Stoney Middleton, without spotters?

And then you went to go bouldering at the most polished section of the most polished crag south of Stoney Middleton? 

When recent threads, the BMC statement and an excellent UKC article have asked people to avoid doing forms of climbing which are more likely to lead to injury if you fall (bouldering and trad) and hence potential NHS treatment at a time when the NHS is already over stretched.

And you were dismayed at other climbers who were flagrantly ignoring NHS guidelines?

And presumably you drove there? And when you got to the Chudleigh parking area, presumably you saw quite a number of normal cars (ie ignoring the usual crazy dustbin lorries and commercial vehicles) suggesting that a number of people were at the crag, but still walked in to go climbing? 

Only to be surprised at the number of other climbers out to enjoy the sun in that lovely setting just like you?

And you thought you might only meet the odd lone boulderer, even though there's only two small bouldering areas at the crag (ignoring that traverse below White Edge next to the main approach path and the overhang problem on the crag top)?

And then you wrote that open post to UKC above?

I don't need to say anything. 

The public (including climbers - we are no leas selfish than others) will only stop going out when legally compelled to do so under emergency statute. The sooner the Government does this, removes the unworkable contradictions in the current recommendations and doesn't rely on the public and climbers to do the right thing, the better. And from today's news, it looks like the Government will do this in the near future.

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Deadeye 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

> I went out to Chudleigh this evening on my own.

> I felt just about justified doing it.

> We've been asked to stay at home where possible

> It's not hard.

> I have friends and family members who work in the NHS and who are exposing themselves to serious risk. Out of respect to them, we should follow their requests

WTF were you thinking then?  You make me weep

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Geoff82 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Let’s not sugar coat it. 

With nurses and doctors going to work to save lives while risking infection and having to go home to vulnerable people, anyone not following the advice for the sake of leisure is not only totally thick but also completely selfish pieces of shit. 

Your  actions are putting lives needlessly at risk for leisure and probably not your own lives if you are young, although the young and fit are also dying. 

Post edited at 21:04
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DancingOnRock 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Cusco:

There is emergency legislation going through parliament at the moment. 1st reading was on Friday, second tomorrow. 
 

That’s why Scotland are having to rely on existing licencing laws to close pubs that don’t close and can only close them for 24 hours. 
 

Currently they don’t have powers to make you stay at home. And they don’t have powers to force you to agree to testing. Plus some other removals of our basic rights. 

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ena sharples 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

given the curve of events, I would put a fair wager on something akin to martial law being in place this time next week, given the number of f*ckwits who either cannot or will not behave properly.

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dan gibson 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

Please tell me your post is a troll.

Otherwise you need a serious wake up call.

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Stuart (aka brt) 22 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

"Hell is other people". 

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Michael Hood 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Wife told me a situation that brings home who the real heroes are...

Consultant anaesthetist in London, is going to be dealing with ICU ventilator patients. His hospital's capacity of 7 is planned to increase to 80. Anyway, his kid has leukaemia so is high risk. He is having to move out, leave the childcare to his wife & family, live in a caravan and not see his kid for 6 months.

That's dedication and stepping up to the plate.

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Stuart (aka brt) 22 Mar 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Wife told me a situation that brings home who the real heroes are...

> Consultant anaesthetist in London, is going to be dealing with ICU ventilator patients. His hospital's capacity of 7 is planned to increase to 80. Anyway, his kid has leukaemia so is high risk. He is having to move out, leave the childcare to his wife & family, live in a caravan and not see his kid for 6 months.

> That's dedication and stepping up to the plate.

My wife's been on edge all day. She's really not looking forward to tomorrow. I am always utterly astounded at her and her colleagues demeanour. 

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Wide_Mouth_Frog 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Geoff82:

>....... though the young and fit are also dying. 

Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard of anyone younger than 41 and he had a pre-existing condition

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Geoff82 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

Yes doctors and nurses in Italy have said it in my personal network and just watch some of the sky news footage from the epicentre. Reports of people in 30–40’s increasingly in the icu. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiY32pglV-g

Also there are reports of young fit medical staff dying of excess viral loading. 

In Lombardy they are not ventilating people over 65 because there are so many young people getting it now who need ventilating. The ICU’s are now full of the young. Many may have other health issues but not all. I have heard reports of some otherwise fit people being knocked out. 

The WHO also are saying do not assume youth and general good health guarantee  survival. 

In the uk we have half the number of ICU bed capacity per 100k people going into this than Italy. 

Post edited at 07:07
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Stuart (aka brt) 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> >....... though the young and fit are also dying. 

> Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard of anyone younger than 41 and he had a pre-existing condition

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-number-of-deaths-in-uk-rises-by-48-to-281-11962009

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Wide_Mouth_Frog 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Geoff82:

Thanks for sharing that. I hadn't seen that before. As much as I feel like Sky News are 'The Sun' of TV journalism, that was sobering viewing

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Darron 23 Mar 2020
In reply to acking:

The politest thing I can say about the op is a staggering lack of self awareness.

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jkarran 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> >....... though the young and fit are also dying. 

> Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard of anyone younger than 41 and he had a pre-existing condition

It's being reported on the radio this morning, several not dead but critically ill in 30's and 40's, previously well. This isn't surprising, we were never going to escape this wholly unscathed as an age group looking at the numbers from elsewhere. That it's making the news now is I suspect an increasingly alarmed effort on the part of those telling the stories and the editors to make us take this seriously! Maybe we will if 'people like us' are dying.

jk

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Red Rover 23 Mar 2020
In reply to jkarran:

Something else to remember is that the statistics showing those under 50 to be at very low risk assumes that you can get a hospital bed if you need it. Hence why the data from the Diamond Princess seem to be encouraging: they got all the treatment they needed. Once the hospitals fill up the case fatality rate for all age groups increases significantly and it isn't just a problem for old people (not that it ever was).

Post edited at 14:39
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jkarran 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Geoff82:

> In the uk we have half the number of ICU bed capacity per 100k people going into this than Italy. 

While this isn't good it's worth bearing in mind we need one to two orders of magnitude more if we don't break the infection chain, the difference in what we have is negligible compared to what both countries need. As is, compared to how Italy was, we'll just have to start rationing places a few days earlier, the outcome both places is still that the vast majority of people getting seriously ill (from CV and other disease) will die for some months unless we/they massively boost capacity and rapidly control infection. Whether that's now possible, whether our environment is sufficiently contaminated that we can't slow then reverse the growth in cases, time will tell. Looks like that could be the case in Italy so we should assume we too are there or thereabouts now. Then the problem get's harder, we need training, ppe, labour and disinfectant. Fast.

jk

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Geoff82 23 Mar 2020
In reply to jkarran:

Agreed. I was not trying to imply that Italian health system is in a strong position, rather it is in a relatively better position than the the NHS albeit still a very poor position. 

I’m taking this combined with the reports coming back from Italy as a reasonable indication for how the health system will be impacted here especially as there is currently no reason to think that the disease has been contained more effectively in the Uk than it has been in Italy. 

Post edited at 16:44
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French Erick 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

Unusually well read! Hope it was in its original version- although, between you and me, while I agree with sentiment I have found the play pretty dull.

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Stuart (aka brt) 23 Mar 2020
In reply to French Erick:

> Unusually well read! Hope it was in its original version- although, between you and me, while I agree with sentiment I have found the play pretty dull.

Back when I thought it made me look cool. And no, not in French.

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Bulls Crack 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Eric9Points:

Or rather, too many people descend on the same places

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Eric9Points 23 Mar 2020
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> Or rather, too many people descend on the same places

Well yes but head somewhere with a lower population density and the honeypots are much less busy.

I lived in Hampshire for a few years and was struck by how many people there were and how little countryside there was for them to visit. England would be a beautiful place if it had 25% of the population.

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