UKC

Been climbing for about 20 years and every so often struggle to untie my FoE.

Have I been making a mistake I didn't know about?

youtube.com/watch?v=QAr-uHd8h8o&

Position was counter-intuitive for me also, I thought it would be easier on the top!!

Skip to 14:00 if you are in a hurry.

I thought a FoE was an FoE, obviously knot!!

Are you dressing (tidying it, basically) it neatly?  If you don't, you will end up with only part of it going tight.

I went away for a weekends tuition with an MIA a while back, on day 1 I tied my knot and he took a look at it and said "wtf is that?!" as my knot wasn't well tied and dressed.

He made me undo it, and from then on insisted that from then on every single knot I tie has to be 100% perfect "as if you were going to take a picture of it and put it in a book about knots" otherwise I'd be made to untie and start again.

Best bit of advice I ever got, have kept doing this for years now, makes untying so much easier!

Did you watch the video?

It's about where the "load line" sits on the knot, and because we were looking out for it at the weekend, spent a whole afternoon not getting stuck in, apart from once when I'd put the load line around the top.

Dressing helps, but not as much as looking out for this.

Strangely, I must have been tying correctly most of the time without knowing it.

Over 60 years of climbing I have always favoured using a bowline over a figure of eight. The bowline is much easier to untie BUT the potential for tying it wrong is much greater, and an incorrectly tied "bowline" can be fatal. So it's essential that you are competent at tying one correctly every time, literally with your eyes closed, and to be able to recognise instantly if its been tied wrong. If you cant do this, stick to the FoE, even if it can be tiresome to untie when it's been weighted.

Which was my reason for posting, maybe you've been tying a FoE "wrong" most of the time it looks the same, but there are two ways and one is hard to undo while the other isn't.

Like you say, after a period of time, you just tie in and don't think about it, then every now and again it hard to untie. But since seeing the video, it was pretty obvious, that normally I'd tie in like the video suggests, and then occasionally it would be different, and that's when it's hard to undo.

I've got to this many years old without thinking there was a right and wrong FoE.

If it's tied the right way you can fall on it as much as you like and it's still easy to undo.

Fascinating! I will look out for this next time I'm doing some sport climbing

Instructors are always like this. It's because a messy figure 8 is not as easy to demonstrate to a beginner as a tidy one, so they insist on knots being 100% perfect, all of the time (e.g. if I was to teach someone I would want it to look like that, so I will insist on it being like that all of the time). 

I remember on my CWI I had a tail slightly longer than usual so had an extra round on my barrel stopper knot. The instructor made me untie and tie it again, 'properly'. Even though it was fine, it wouldn't be what you'd want to see from someone you were teaching, so it isn't fine. 

Better still, tie in as normal, and then when it's hard to undo, look at where the load line is positioned.

Figure of 9?

I saw this video a while ago and started paying real attention. Turns out the way I always always habitually do it ends up loading the way he's recommending. Which probably explains why I've never had that much trouble and consequently never had any time for people who tell me I'll never be one of the cool kids because I don't use a bowline.

I almost want to try flipping the strands next time I'm planning to take a ride just to check if it's bullshit. It sounds like it should be bullshit, and I really want it to be bullshit, but there might be something in it.

I'm surprised at that. I'll quite often have 3 or 4 rounds on my stopper and it's much more preferable than having a tail flapping around. 

For some reason I have a habit of 'bowline for sport' & 'eights for trad' no idea why but I find it uncomfortable (mentally not physically) climbing with the other knot lol

I think it's a really good thing.  Shows care and attention to detail, and when you're dealing with safety that's not a bad thing!

Besides, once you've got the knack of doing really good neat knots, it's just as easy to tie neat ones as messy ones!

I got shown that but with a bunny ears fig 8, where instead of pushing the loop through and to the top, lay it in the middle instead. The guy was an assessor with rope access work, it makes the knot slightly stronger.

Yeah but the point is you shouldn't have either. If I had a long tail then I'd have been told to re-tie it as well. The knot should be perfect, so in theory you shouldn't have a long tail or extra loops round your knot. The principal is that if you were showing a beginner how to tie in, you wouldn't be sloppy and have a long tail that you then have to go around loads with because at that stage they just need to see the one 'perfect' example of tying in. If you start going 'oh I only have a short tail so I'll just do an overhand' or 'I've got too much tail so I'll just go around a couple more times' then it complicates things further and suggests that there is some freedom with how they should be tying in. I volunteered instructing a disabled group for a while and got into the habit of starting from scratch with everything if it wasn't perfect. From what I've seen in my own experience, this is drilled in to instructors from the beginning. 

It's an interesting video. there is a follow-up video which shows you how to tie the optimum knot for loading too, which (thankfully) is the way I was doing it anyway. 

No need

Not sure strength is an issue, to be fair, and either this or another of his videos goes on to prove it, with pull tests.

Maybe the way the assessor tied it made it loop in the right place anyway.

I was the same, I almost always tied the same way, but never took much notice, every no and then though, it was hard to undo, I thought it was because I was a fat bloke, though obviously it would happen all the time.

The trouble was, once I went to practice what I normal did, because I was "thinking" about it, I wasn't sure any more.

Took a few longish falls this weekend and could always just undo it easily.

I expect a report, after your experiments.

Are people really bothering to use stopper knots on fig 8' s?

Utter and complete waste of time...( Using sub 9mm climbing rope.  Probably a damn good idea in stiff 11mm...which nobody uses)

6" tail, lobbed off too many times to count: knot never in any danger of coming undone, unties well enough, but harder after 60 footers.

I suppose the instructors have to seem to be teaching something )

The few climbers I see without stoppers are all really experienced.  And alive

Try climbing at Sunderland climbing wall without a double wrapped round tail poked up from the bottom stopper!!

I've got a 11mm 20m "wall" rope

Bloke in the video doesn't recommend stoppers.

How many have you seen with stoppers and dead?

Just tried to tie a fig 8 in a crappy USB cable and concentrating on how I do it makes it hard to replicate. Figured it out now though. Describing this is never going to make sense so you might want to stop reading here.
It's because the first thing I always do is force the gap to the side it doesn't want to be on before I first thread the working end into the knot, if that makes sense. i.e. when first following the rope into the knot, go in on the closed side where it doesn't want you to. I've conditioned myself to do that because it automatically ends up dressed. Also, apparently, makes it the "right way up"
I guess it also depends on how you tied the single 8 to start with, but I always do that the same way too. Whatever. It always always always comes out the way he recommends when I don't think about it.
Might have fully banjaxed this cable now.
 

Many years ago I remember reading about knot strengths, basically the smaller the radius of a loaded part of the knot, the weaker the knot.

So a FoE with the loaded rope going round the tighter inner side curve first was about 61% of "straight" strength. Around the outside first was about 66% and a bowline was somewhere in the middle (my memory might be out by 1 or 2%).

Conclusion was that strength wise it doesn't make much difference because if you're generating forces that are 60%+ of the rope's breaking strength then you are so far up s**t creek that the rope breaking is unlikely to be your primary concern.

Three.  Don't go there.

Though nothing to do with their knots; even so..

How many people have tied a bowline wrong once they know how to tie it and use it regularly?  For me the issue with the bowline is the lack of internal friction making it relatively easy to loosen unless you really pull it up tight and/or use a stopper.

John Long. He’s pretty experienced...!

Weird isn't it?, "once you start thinking, how do I normally do this thing, I normal just do without thinking"

Anyhow, like you I think most of the time, it just worked out correct for me, but odd times it would be hard to undo, I never thought it was to do with the way I'd tied it.

Good luck with the cable

ps also, before he explained which was the better of the two, what I expected to be best, wasn't!!

The ropes radius doesn't change it still only goes around two rope lengths, it's just a different position on the knot, itself.

Forgetting to finish off tying your knot is never a good idea no matter what knot you’re using.

He means the radius of the bend in the rope.

Well yes. Who would leave it loose? Incidentally, this is exactly why I've always favoured a simple bowline with stopper over one of the alternative thread through finishes - once the bowline is tied it IS tight. In other words it doesn't need to be left deliberately loose to enable the threading finish to be done, which is then harder to completely tighten evenly.

But that wasn't the question...

No, but he didn’t tie it wrongly, he forgot to finish tying it which I find surprising given that it takes about 5 seconds to tie a bowline.

It must have been something pretty interesting to distract him in that length of time!

Didn't finish it = wrong in my book.

He says in the accident report he was very tired after a day at work, then distracted, and would have messed up any knot.

Didn't Lynn Hill almost die because of a bowline? Not sure on the details of what happened.

I'm particular about knots and the knots of those I climb with - if I check a Fig 8 knot and it's a mess, I tell them to tie it again until it's properly dressed and visibly accurate.  If it's a Bowline with some cack-handed finish I tell them that I am not sure and that they had better check it again themselves.

A decent fig 8 is not hard to tie - as someone said above - tie it snugly in the first place, and the rethread starts not in the obvious hole - the rope needs to be moved over and the rethread starts on the 'outside of the curve' and follows the natural course all the way.

It's habit forming and the cues all need to be there - particularly the harness leg and waist loops squeezing together as the loop is tightened.  The barrel knot at the end is important not to stop the knot coming undone, but because it's a cue that tying the knot has been completed.   It is a 'snuggle factor' on a brand new slippery rope though.

Finally, feed downwards - waist loop first, then legs - if you miss one loop and still miss the tightening cue, the chances are that it's the less important leg loop that you'll miss, not the waist loop.

I know, but if the FoE is tied either way the radius is the same, because it's wrapped around the same two strands of rope, so only it's position changes, not the radius

But maybe with a FoE it might have been easier to spot it wasn't right.

Obviously, I don't know as I wasn't there, but it's a possibility.

That wasn't the point. What his brilliant video shows is what the rope actually does when tied in those two different ways.

Lynn Hill is alive, so I'd imagine not.

There are quite strong arguments for not tying off a FoE with a stopper.

It is a stable knot in its usual use (unlike a bowline) and tying the end off potentially creates a loop which could be clipped in to. It distracts from the knot itself.  This has been discussed here before....

said "almost die" in the post!

That's exactly what I do, described pretty much how I describe it. It makes a neat tight knot every time. I've no idea if it's an "approved" method. I seldom have any difficulty untying, but then as a confirmed "trad-daddy" I seldom weight my rope.

Martin

Oh. Sorry, I seem unable to read today. Can I dislike my own post? 😆

The Lynn Hill and John Long incidents were almost exactly the same - both passed the ropes through their harnesses but then did not finish tying the knot.  IIRC Lynn Hill was using a FoE whereas John Long was using a bowline.

An American once told me that he was taught 'A not neat knot need not be tied.'

On a separate note we drop test stuff at work and how you tie and dress knots makes a big difference to how easily you can untie them, although sometimes we get to the point where the knot melts and becomes welded! 

https://rockandice.com/people/lynn-hill-what-ive-learned/

Sounds like Lynn was using a bowline too. Although given that the issue was getting distracted and not finishing the knot it could have happened with a foe as well.

Guess what? That's why I posted it. I didn't mention radius of the rope until someone else did, and I tried to correct them.

The details seem oddly inconsistent - Lynn Hill herself says that she was using a bowline and that the only major injury was a dislocated elbow; the AAC confidently state she was using a FoE and several sources say she broke her ankle!

In most circumstances I would assume that she knew best about what happened, but memory does play some funny tricks when it comes to recalling significantly traumatic events.

In the end it doesn't really matter - either knot would have failed equally, and neither serves as a good reason to avoid the bowline.  I use both the events as teaching material - "if Lynn Hill and John Long can f*ck this up, so can you or I!"

Pretty sure both were bow line

The geometry of a knot determines its specific performance characteristics.
A large % of the comments in this topic thread are inaccurate - and I see the usual divergent posts of 'Bowline' Vs #1047 Figure 8 eye knot.
When someone types 'Bowline' - this is non nonsensical because there are dozens of different types of 'Bowlines'. Those who type the word 'Bowline' are implying that there is only one (1) - which is false. Also, there are a group of 'Bowlines' which are inherently secure.
Go to this website to dive deep into the technical details about 'Bowlines':
http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php ('Bowlines' are at #4 in the table).
Note: Those who are not interested in technical detail - don't read the paper!

The specific video showing the different tying geometry of the #1047 F8 is interesting because it is refreshingly not examining the usual mindset of MBS yield (ie same old boring knot break tests) - although he muddled a few concepts (which is forgivable because he isn't to be held to the same standard as a certified test lab - using a control and capturing multiple data points across different rope types).

Brilliant! Are you a friend of Knude Knoggin?

The plot thickens. I checked to see which way I have habitually tied my figure of eights and found that I have been doing it the "right" way, which might explain why I have never had much difficulty untying my rope even after quite a big fall. 

But I have since done some googling and stumbled upon an article in the Alpine Journal from 1973 that reported breaking test results of various ropes and knots. One of the conclusions of that report was that the bowline weakened the rope more than a figure-of-eight on all the rope types then tested (which included hawser-laid and kernmantle ropes of various sizes). I think it was that article that made me slightly favour the figure-of-eight ever since. However, there was another conclusion I had not remembered and that was that there was a "right" and a "wrong" way to tie the figure of eight, exactly as the current video describes, except that "right" and "wrong" ways are the other way around in the old report. The "right" way has the loaded rope on the outside of the knot, whilst the "wrong" way, with the loaded rope on the inside, apparently has a lower breaking point.

I wonder, though, whether the old report had it the right way round. Intuitively, I would have thought the knot that was the easier to untie would be the one that had dissipated the energy of the fall(s) more effectively.

Perhaps it's time to ask the really experienced rope manufacturers, such as Edelrid and Mammut, what they think.

An alternative take would be that the harder-to-undo knot would be so precisely because more of the fall energy had been used in tightening it.

Just to but in here, I wonder really how critical this all is, how much it really matters which way you do it. I think I'd prefer to stick with the method that's easiest to undo.

I originally thought that might be the explanation, but it is the localisation of stress implied by the over-tightened knot that I thought would be detrimental. 

I suppose another possibility is that, in the over-tightened knot, more of the stress is taken up by the sheath, thereby relieving some of the stress in the core of the rope. That might imply some or more slippage of the sheath over the core in the over-tightened knot.

But given that any version absorbs all the energy (otherwise it breaks) the one that that is easy to undo is best?

That would be the case were the knot to be the only element in the safety chain with energy absorbing properties. It isn't.

And, to avoid further confusion, I'm not advocating the use of any knot that's hard to undo after a fall. Quite the opposite would be my take on it (that's largely why I like Bowlines so much.) I was simply responding to a point that I thought may be based on incorrect reasoning.

Indeed but I would say that all the knots absorb the energy but in the FOE case it is, presumably, inconsistent tightening that results in hard to undo knots (at least that is what I got from the film).

Bowlines are good for undoing precisely because you can't do them up tightly enough to be reliable without a stopper/backup

Eh!?

It's not inconsistent, it's repeatable and predictable, depending on how the FoE is tied, it's very consistant.

My counter argument to that is that if you thread through the leg loops first and then forget to finish the knot it is more likely to fall out of it's own accord as you move upwards and thereby give you some warning. IMO not finishing the knot is the greater risk and arguably the most common.

Al

My counter argument is that threading waist loop to leg loop is just plain bloody awkward !

It is if you're used to doing it the other way.

I nearly always got bottom to top, and for some reason with my latest harness I've missed the top loop out a few times, something I'd never done before. I've not done it for a year or so now, but it's pretty scary getting to the lower off, and feeling off balance.

Since watching the video, I've been trying to make sure I go top to bottom, it's very hard breaking a 18 year habit.

I think most of us know that, and would agree

I what sense?

I meant inconsistent within the knot (pinch points etc)

I wouldn't try to overwrite 18 years of muscle memory.  Just focus on doing it perfectly, the way you're used to, every time. 

There used to be a character called Knude Knoggin who’d pop up on threads like this and lecture people on knots. Very much like agent smith. So I wondered...

Yes you can, but the point is that even when fallen on and completely locked up, you can untie them easily.

A bowline in a climbing context is incomplete without a stopper tied tight against the bowline. I fail to see why this is a problem, or why it detracts from the knot.

I must admit I haven't been consciously aware of where the load strand goes with my usual fig of 8, but as I've rarely had any issues untying my tie-in knot after falls, I thought it probably went to the middle as recommended in that video. I just checked, and that is the case - more luck than judgement, though

Couple of other thoughts from this thread ....

I habitually thread legs first then waist: I'm familiar with the arguments for going the other way, but TBH missing one out is not something I've ever done, and I always check the rope's through both (plus buddy checks). FWIW there doesn't seem a strong enough case against to be worth the upheaval of changing my ingrained procedure.

Someone mentioned bunny ears, and the strength of the knot being different depending on where the final loop goes. I would have thought the main issue is not so much strength (or, for that matter, ease of untying: scenarios involving leader falls aren't normal applications for bunny ears) as slippage - how likely it is that rope can slide around to the "ear" under greater tension, and whether this is affected by the position of that final loop when tying. It would be interesting to see some tests of this.

Ha ha I thought it was some "cool" internet thing I was missing out on, like Pepe Frog.

Thanks for posting, really interesting and a great video. No surprises about a well tied vs badly dressed fig8, but the the differences between well dressed and fully tightened, and inner and outer load strands was enlightening!