UKC

OK, OK, I know we've had this before, but I've had some new ideas. Basically, I think almost every grade up to E5 we had wrong before.

VS Ethelreda's Pinnacle Route 1, A Crowley, 1893.

(an honorary mention for Crowley's Crack, also done in 1893 and now E1. Our hero regrettably had to be rescued on a top-rope from the crux, but I bet the climbing up to there was at least VS)

HVS According to the Kinder guide, JWP didn't do Downfall Groove at all but another line in the same area, and they seem pretty sure.

However I have a new candidate, Mallory's Ridge on Y Garn in Cwellyn, done in 1911 and due to be upgraded in the new guide (and deservedly I am quite sure).

E1 Good ol' Cave Arete Indirect; Ivar Berg 1916.

Still a bit of a cheat tho'. Honorary mention for The Dover and Ellis Chimney, 1932 (can't remember) and surely the first 'proper' E1 in the sense of a route which is still E1 today even though it's perfectly safe.

E2 Wall End Slab Direct, 1930, Frank Elliott, Gilbert Ellis and Harry Dover

Shame on us Peakies for missing this. HM for Curving Buttress - Eric Byne 1930's. Doubted by some but described in the 1950 pink guide in terms which leave little doubt to my mind. Admittedly graded VDiff, but frankly I think this is nearer the mark than E2 (even though this was my first E2)

E3 Since research reveals that Demon Rib used combined tactics at the very start, Great Slab, Joe Brown 1951.

(although I do wonder if DR wouldn't be E3 anyway even if you used combined tactics at the start). And pleasingly, the next two would seem to be Right Eliminate and Bloody Slab. Now there's a good contrasting trio.

E4 There seems to be some doubt about whether Goliath was worth E4 in the state it was then in (chockstones etc) - although not much, I would say.

Instead I offer (and this may please Jon Read) Austin's Variation on White Slab on Cloggy. E4 5c done in early 1959.

E5

Dubious whether we allow Green Death in 1969. Cheated the start, but the peg was not cemented in as it now is. Was that worth E5?

If we say not, then we have the following contenders:

24.2.1972 Propeller Wall, Syrett. I'm no expert on Yorkshire grit, but as far as I know this was done completely in the modern style and is simply the winner (albeit graded VS at the time. Imagine there'd been Rocktalk in those days. We'd never have heard the last of it.)

Don't Slip (Drummond April 1972, Avon) Only E5 now because polished by topropers - once standard E4. Does that count?

Just So (Gloag May 1972, Avon). Now hard E5 and not particularly polished. Certainly the second best contender after Propeller Wall.

Quick Flash (Wyvill 1972, Avon). Had a peg then which presumably wasn't quite so crap as it is now. Probably not E5 in that state.

Smoove Groove (Crocker Dec 1972, Avon). Side peg runner. Not E5 in that style.

Green Death again. Led in modern style - ie start done properly and peg runner cemented in - by Proctor for TV some time in 1974, but I don't know when.

Edge Lane. (McHardy). Some time in 1974, with two peg runners. Was it E5 in that style?

Right Wall (Livesey Summer 1974). Still the first totally indisputable E5.

But really I think Propeller Wall is the right answer.

E6 Still Narcissus or Slip 'n' Slide in Spring 1976, followed narrowly by Gigglin' Crack later the same year.

E7 Ray's Roof in July 1977 must be right if it's going to be upgraded (and would be the only example of a new grade being broken at the brick, rather than the death, end of the grade).

Otherwise Desperate Dan in 1979 or The Aardvark and the Ferret (also unspecified date in 1979), and both subject to grading queries. And if none of those, then it really would The Bells The Bells, which would please me more, I must say.

The rest we all know: E8 Doug (Dixon 1985) or Gaia (Dawes 1985), E9 Indian Face (Dawes 1986) and E10 Divided Years (Dunne 1995)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Propellor Wall has suffered rockfall since the FA, its E5 now, but since I wasn't around back then I can't say whether it was when it was done. Quite possibly was, but this is a point worth considering.

In reply to Dan:

I had an idea someone might have told me that before.

I'm pretty sure Just So is still exactly as was. I really do suspect that might be the 'right' answer.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

As far as I can remember, John Syrett sight-soloed Propellor Wall. Hardly the "modern style", although to be fair, there are climbers around today (such as Dean Potter) who do similar things in similar style.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>And if none of those, then it really would The Bells The Bells, which would please me more, I must say.

Was 'The Bells' 1984? Same year as Requiem?

In reply to Li'l Zé: what grade is Requiem? E7 or E8? when was Femme Fatale (Glen Nevis) done? is it not E8?

In reply to EB:

Requiem was done in '84, I think, and was thought to be E8 6b by the most recent ascentionist (Dave MacLeod)

In reply to EB:

Oh, and I think Femme Fatale was '86, but I could be wrong. It's E8 6c, isn't it?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Crocker was on TV last night and said to be 46...did he really do Smooth Groove when he was 15??!

In reply to Stuart S: Femme Fatale E8 6c 1984, aye, Requiem E8 6b

In reply to Ian Hill:

I wouldn't be surprised - he does mention in the guide that during another new route he did the same year he was hampered by a muscle torn in a school football match.

The Bells The Bells was 1980, long before Requiem.

In reply to John Stainforth: agreed; by 'modern style' all I meant that it was done as now described in the guidebook, without side runners, different line, combined tactics or whatever. Has this rockfall made any real difference to the route, do you know?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Thanks for keeping this going. I'd forgotten about that mad sod Crowley. Demon Rib was doubted at all by some, seems to be treated in the same was as some of John Dunne's ascents which is a bit sad.

I dont see how Rays Roof could be E7 with modern gear as it would need to be getting on for 7b. Then again I guess I dont understand the grade range arguments for high extremes at all as why arnt the adjectival grades 5 technical grades wide from 'death on a stick' to boulder problem like mid grades are. Mmmm new thread.

In reply to Offwidth:

E for effort and F for FFFFFrustration I think.

In reply to Dan: I did, I think, the third ascent of Propeller Wall after Ron's (I think) second ascent. Ron told me that he thought it was nearer E1 than VS, I had a lot of beta from Ron but I couldnt say what grade it was other than 'desperate'. I very much doubt that it was E5 at the time though?

In reply to Offwidth:

>I don't see how Rays Roof could be E7 with modern gear as it would need to be getting on for 7b.

You got a problem with that????

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yeah, but The Bells The Bells is E7 while latest thinking is that Requiem is E8...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Compared with Yosemite crack grades yes. Plus interestingly WG has it has E7 6c. The gulf between thrutchy Severes and thrutchy E7's doesnt really appear to me to be that wide, especially watching some extreme climbers flailing on severe graded offwidth routes like Dead Tree Crack @ Burbage North.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: so are you chosing to ignore Requiem and Femme Fatale?

Requiem first E8 6B
Femme Fatale first E8 6C

In reply to EB: Excuse my ignorance, which Requiem are we talking about here?

In reply to EB:
Is Femme Fatale not given E7/8 6c? And are you sure it was !984, a I think I've got the report in a mag from later than that? What did Dave MacL think (he's done the only repeat hasn't he?).

In reply to Al Evans:
Requiem, Dumbarton Rock.

In reply to Jon Read:

Read all about both of them here:http://www.scotlandonline.com/outdoors/outdoor_template/topten2.cfm

Requiem E8 6b, FA 1983
Femme Fatale E8 6c, FA 1986

In reply to Stuart S: ok, need the guide to confirm, i read it on Dave's profile on scotonline

anyway, point is, scottish rock climbing is miles harder than Englands

In reply to EB:


Did we really need a 20+ post thread to work that out!

In reply to EB:

Certainly harder to get it dry......

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Positron E5, 1971. Al Rouse, with a radio on the belay (ok so he pulled on gear I think, but it is still E5 for balls out going for it on that wall).

In reply to EB:

Northumberland excepted

In reply to Li'l Zé:

Requiem rarely gets wet.

Norrie

PS I stopped bouldering to watch Cubby doing the last moves on Requiem, one of the few times I was impressed by someone climbing!

In reply to Li'l Zé:

Certainly harder to get it dry......

Oh Requiem's usually dry all right....I'll even hold your ropes for you

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, remind me where 'Just So' is. I've done all the other Avon possibilities and I don't think any of them are real contenders. Steady 5c on solid rock, good friction (at that time) and off-vertical does not an E5 make. 'Don't Slip' I did in the early eighties and was certainly a grade easier than R Wall then.

I'd have thought Edge Lane would have counted even with pegs: I guess these went in the shot-holes and they wouldn't stop you decking from the crux any more than an Amigo/Alien/inverted Rock 8 will.

In reply to Nj:

Well I did wonder about that, but I thought I'd get laughed at if I suggested Positron was still E5 even with a resting sling (and actually I think there might have been more than one).

Actually, I wonder what grade soloing Beatnik would (does?) get.

In reply to the Scots: Requiem, may well be true, I agree. Femme Fatale seems to be after Doug and Gaia, although I'm afraid I am suffering a blond moment and have forgotten whether those were 1985 or 1986.

Abbed off the chain at the top of Requiem after doing Windjammer. That in itself was pretty impressive.

As was the wide crack at the bottom of Windjammer. Doused in blood it was....

In reply to duncan:

Bit of a debate about whether these would keep you off the ground on Edge Lane; I wouldn't like to be the live body testing it but I still reckon they would. If you measure it by eye they're relatively much higher than the ones on Equilibrium, for example.

Just So is in the same part of the Sea Walls, in that complex area immediately right of Padansac and left of Don't Slip and the rest. A shorter way left of that thing with the crescent on.

Slabby 5c on good rock with a big groundfall potential doesn't make an E5? Bad news for Green Death's claim. And Edge Lane's indeed. But maybe you wouldn't actually hit the ground off Don't Slip? Just So has 'no protection whatsoever', according to the usually rather restrained Monks guide.

In reply to Li'l Zé:

After doing Longbow (and suffering a whole body pump including my brain) I rejected abbing off either the Requiem chain or the Sapling of Certain Doom and tried to sneak out through the Castle

Scared the crap aout of a snogging couple at the summit flagpole and legged it down the steps as fast as rock shoes would allow. Got caught when I made a wromg turn heading for the exit and ran, red faced and panting, into the shop.....

G

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'm pretty sure that we can't have propeller wall as the first E5. Originally graded VS. The wall to the left of it fell down long before my time, but I have done the route in its recent condition (unless its changed in the last 5 years) and would think E5 is a bit much. E3?

(I'd rather do that than wall of horrors)

It would be nice if Right Wall took the prize, after all E5 is 'the' grade.

Jack

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Don't Slip certainly has/had wires that would probably hold. Just So. I've only ever soloed it but it looked completely unprotected. However it is mostly easy and easily reversable except for one tricky (but still only 5c) move R into the groove, then the holds quickly become much more positive again. Don't think that makes it top end E5 - much less commiting than Hairless or Edge Lane (in my imagination), not as high up as Green Death or Edge Lane and nothing like as much climbing as Edge Lane.

I think the point I'm not making very well is that there must have been a fair number routes with 5c moves that were unprotected when they were first done, even as far back as the Rock and Ice era. Wall of Horrors being an oft cited example.

Having Right Wall as the first echt E5 has a certain elegance to it.

In reply to jack (and duncan):

I’m not arguing with you about the grades, but I’m not sure the game allows us to dispute the present guidebook grades, either of Just So or Propeller Wall; the latter’s been E5 since the 1989 guide (assuming it is now – haven’t got the recent one) and the former is in the 1990 (?) guide and at the top of the graded list too. To disqualify either I think we’d have to say it was somehow easier in 1972 – after all there were much harder leads around at the time, allowing for the available gear, than all the routes up to E3, and probably even E4 (Sentinel Crack solo, anyone?). But I do agree that it would be much nicer to have Right Wall as the first E5. It was certainly the first ‘proper’ E5.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Sorry, haven't been anywhere near Propellor Wall for 25 years - don't know anything about "this rockfall"

In reply to Nj:

I remember Al Rouse telling us about Positron, and I am pretty sure he practicised the route but it did not pull on slings. Pulling on slings would have been out of keeping with his style and what he was trying to achieve - which was definitely a very hard (by the standards of the day) pure rock climb.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Don't you remember the tales of Al Rouse attacking the headwall pitch with a baby Moac on wire between his teeth. So the story goes, the first time he tried it he couldn't take a hand off to place gear. There may be a certain amount of not letting the truth getting in the way of a good story in all this of course. I do think on the FA Al used this wire as one of two rest points. This is absolutely not to detract from the ascent, this was a huge psychological break-through during what was a relatively fallow period of UK rock-climbing. Sustained climbing on rock that steep in an amazing position was a whole new ball-game and very much the shape of things to come.

The FFA was in 1974, either Alec Sharp (on his ascent of Ordinary Route) or Pete Livesey not long after Right Wall. Livesey claimed he ran-out the entire headwall pitch, which gets over any difficulty in placing gear!

In reply to Nj: It was Pete Minx who had the radio.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Western Grit gives HVS 5a to Herford's Route on the Pagoda (Kinder) - FA 1910.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Excellent - thank you. Of course one can't go off the opinion of a pirate publication like that (!), but I shall certainly check in the definitive guide.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
While you're at it, they've also upgraded Kinder's Right Twin Chimney to HVS 5a (also Herford 1910)

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Wahey. Thanks.

Someone else tells me, btw, that Crowley in the 1890's climbed another chalk chimney called Devil's Chimney, which fell down in the 1950's, but which was considered by some probably to be HVS by modern standards.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

According to the Borrowdale guide, Livesy did Footless Crow in April 1974, which I think predates his summer ascent of Right Wall. In which case, the Lakes wins in this category.

I can't comment as to whether it's still E5 , or ever was, cos it's still 3 grades harder than anything I ever got hauled up!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
To reply to myself, the definitive guide has Herford's Route at VS 4c, but gives Right Twin Chimney HVS 4c,5a FA Siegfried Herford 1910.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Doesn't the Yorkshire Grit guide have a picture of a first ascent of some HVS crack on Simon's Seat from 1903 or similar?

Bob

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Does it?? I looked it and thought they were both HVS 5a. I must be getting old.

I could have sworn Footless Crow was later - Livesey said at the time it was harder, so why he'd have hyped Right Wall as the first E5 at the time I don't know. It's E6 now that the flake has disappeared, I believe (someone?), which would make it the first E6 in a sense, but only in a sense.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I might possible have got it wrong. Can't double check as the copy of the Kinder guide I was looking at was in Joe Brown's in Capel